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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    sepheronx

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:40 am

    chicken wrote:Nakhimov gets S-300FM (like Peter the Great) and Paket-NK, no Redut.
    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1124199.html

    Holy, that sounds like quite the system really. Vertical launchers for Klub and S-300FM? Hopefully something more modern though for S-300FM.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Naval Fan on Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:30 am

    GarryB wrote:Regarding Zircon it is the replacement missile for Onyx and will be designed to fit in the standard UKSK vertical launch system... so presumably when it is ready for service every new Russian vessel and vessel upgraded with UKSK tubes will be able to carry and use it... from corvette to carrier...

    I would assume in addition to replacing Onyx with a hypersonic missile they will also likely upgrade Kalibr with a longer ranged model too.

    According to state television news (broadcast of 11.10.2015),[15] launch of production took place in 2012. Details of this version[16] - the maximum speed of Mach 3, the range of 4,000 km, basing in the air, on land, on water and under water (shows launch from water depth). The missile can make in-flight maneuvers 147 times or more (in any direction), the minimum height of 10 meters, an average of 20 – 50 meters (up to 1000), it will automatically follow terrain, the missile can be controlled in flight.

    Copied from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3M-54_Klub

    Could this be the new long ranged Cruise missile?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:52 am

    As seen from the link, this is a description of Klub, though the 4,000km range and mach three speed are unlikely especially at that altitude... such features are incompatible... it might be a 2.5 ton turbojet powered missile with a range of 4,000km as the air launched Kh-101/102 can reportedly manage 5,500km range but at subsonic speed. Alternatively the mach 3 speed at low altitude would require a powerful ramjet or scramjet engine which would use a lot of fuel at low altitudes and therefore have no where near that range with that speed.

    There is one model of Klub that could actually fit that description... the supersonic anti ship model with a turbojet for most of the flight and a rocket for the last stage could manage that sort of performance... of course for the vast majority of the flight it would cruise at medium altitude at subsonic speed well outside the range of enemy radar... and then when it got to perhaps within 500km of the target area it could drop down to low altitude to hide behind the radar horizon. when it got to the radar horizon of the target the main rocket would fire and the missile would cover the last 40-50kms at high speed and very low level under rocket propulsion.

    An upgraded model with a scramjet for the final phase to extend that period of high speed at very low level would be interesting...

    This could be an upgrade of the supersonic Klub... a supersonic model with a scramjet motor for the final phase of flight... ie subsonic medium altitude flight for 3-4,000km, and then jettison the main body and large wings and turbojet engine and start up a scramjet engine to accelerate the now much lighter missile to very high speeds for the last 1,000km of the route would be interesting...

    Of course Zircon probably is more like Onyx or Moskit and climbs and accelerates to high altitude and high speed immediately to reduce attack time and enemy reaction time assuming it will be detected at long range anyway.


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:44 pm


    Honestly, this thing is just scary... affraid russia





    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1793944.html

    Tyloe

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Tyloe on Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:45 am

    Glad to see MR-800 and MR-710 are going to be replaced with better sensors. Probably adding fixed arrays or a stronger dual-faced AESA radar on the mast. Anyway superior quality targeting and volume search over his previous systems.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:47 am

    Newer systems will have better performance and also be cheaper to maintain and lighter and likely smaller in terms of components and racks, though antennas might be bigger.

    Regarding artillery support in Syria, the Kirovs only had 130mm guns, so its ability to provide fire support would be very limited. It would need to remain offshore several kms to prevent the local nutters lining her up with conventional land artillery and ATGMs, so its reach inshore would be pathetic.

    An Su-25 on the other hand can accurately deliver much heavier HE payloads to where ever it is needed using guided and unguided rockets and bombs and would be much more flexible.

    With a proper self defence suite it should be safe from MANPADS and as long as it flys above small arms fire it should be able to pick and hit targets at will.

    No need for keeping a small towns worth of Russian Navy personnel offshore for long periods.


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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:45 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Honestly, this thing is just scary... affraid  russia





    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1793944.html

    Battlestar Nakhimov
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:13 pm


    Russia’s hypersonic Zircon missile to go into serial production in 2018 — source

    Russia’s Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser will get the Tsirkon (Zircon) hypersonic missiles in the course of modernization


    http://tass.ru/en/defense/870751
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:44 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Russia’s hypersonic Zircon missile to go into serial production in 2018 — source

    Russia’s Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser will get the Tsirkon (Zircon) hypersonic missiles in the course of modernization


    http://tass.ru/en/defense/870751

    That doesn't make sense Nakhimov is supposed to be done with its overhaul by 2018 and assuming they start even mass producing the missiles by 2018 don't know if they will be ready to mount them on ships. Unless they are going to pull the time table back which giving Russian ship building ability, this wouldn't shock me really.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Militarov on Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:50 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Russia’s hypersonic Zircon missile to go into serial production in 2018 — source

    Russia’s Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser will get the Tsirkon (Zircon) hypersonic missiles in the course of modernization


    http://tass.ru/en/defense/870751

    That doesn't make sense Nakhimov is supposed to be done with its overhaul by 2018 and assuming they start even mass producing the missiles by 2018 don't know if they will be ready to mount them on ships. Unless they are going to pull the time table back which giving Russian ship building ability, this wouldn't shock me really.

    Nakhimov will take longer most likely, and even when overhaul is done it will need factory and sea trials... Also it wont only carry Zircons but Kalibrs also.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Russia’s Admiral Nakhimov

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:15 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Russia’s hypersonic Zircon missile to go into serial production in 2018 — source

    Russia’s Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser will get the Tsirkon (Zircon) hypersonic missiles in the course of modernization


    http://tass.ru/en/defense/870751

    That doesn't make sense Nakhimov is supposed to be done with its overhaul by 2018 and assuming they start even mass producing the missiles by 2018 don't know if they will be ready to mount them on ships. Unless they are going to pull the time table back which giving Russian ship building ability, this wouldn't shock me really.

    Nakhimov will take longer most likely, and even when overhaul is done it will need factory and sea trials... Also it wont only carry Zircons but Kalibrs also.

    Yes it will need trials still that means construction of the ship would be done, there would be zero point in launching it only to return it dock months later to refit it again. They said its refit will be done by 2018 and after that they will test it on the sea. From what I understand anyway.

    So if that link is correct Nakhmov won't be done by 2018 with its construction work. I mean I don't blame them may has well wait a bit more to get the Zircons mounted on the ship, it makes sense.
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    hoom

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Sat May 07, 2016 4:30 pm

    Nakhimov gets S-300FM (like Peter the Great) and Paket-NK, no Redut.
    Its definitely getting new radars at least: the big MP-650 Boletus, Fregat & 5P-20K Poliment are listed. (can Poliment direct S-300 missiles instead of Top Dome? Or does it definitely imply 9M96?)

    Can some one tell me what is the final weapons configuration for upgraded Nakhimov if its known officially ?
    Its going to be really interesting to see what it actually comes out with.

    Here are a couple of versions of what it might wind up looking like I've found (sorry if too big?)

    At the light end this fan-made one has Boletus & Fregat, the quoted 80 UKSK cells (which look too big) & 96 AA cells. (not sure if intended as S-300 size or Redut)

    On the face of it the big Boletus up so high on the foremast looks crazy but Kirovs have already had a similar size radar there.
    Has an extra AK-130 forward & changed Kashtan locations which there is no indication of being planned.

    On the other end of the scale is this one (from a book?) which did the rounds of blogs like BMPD a few months back

    Stupendous 240 UKSK cells plus same number of Redut AA cells (and 64 Tor? But seems to be missing proper S-300 cells).
    Has Poliment & Fregat but is missing Boletus.
    If the UKSK scaling is correct here you can see that 'only' 80 cells will look positively anaemic.
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    Isos

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Isos on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:35 pm

    If it gets the Redut instead of the S-300 Fort, it can't use very long range missiles to shoot Awacs. It will just have 120km range missiles. They should just improve radars and new missiles. It has already a lot of missiles without redut cells.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:00 am

    hoom wrote:Its going to be really interesting to see what it actually comes out with.

    Here are a couple of versions of what it might wind up looking like I've found (sorry if too big?)




    These fan-boi concepts don't look practical as they ignore the presence of the large superstructure block that sits forward of the bridge, and which features a pair of Cross-Dome radomes.  Aerial/satellite shots showing the Nahkimov in her early refit stages show that this superstructure remains intact, and I can't imagine that the systems contained within can simply be deleted to make room for more VLS modules.  Additionally, cutting out such structure and extending the VLS bay poses the issue of impact of the vessels structural rigidity/integrity.  Not every concept one can imagine can actually be acheived within the parctical bounds of engineering realities.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Honestly, this thing is just scary...

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:12 am

    What of the Lazarev then? I read they did some basic repair work to extend its time in dock, I know the first ship of the series is done for.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:09 pm

    Definitely fanboi drawings... the poor number of gatling guns alone is an indicator of this...


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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  hoom on Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:26 am

    I didn't intend anyone to think they were anything like official Neutral
    There are certainly obvious flaws in both but they both have some valid features too.

    Also here's 28 April via Google Earth
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:13 pm

    hoom wrote:Also here's 28 April via Google Earth

    Great find! Very Happy
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    max steel

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  max steel on Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:35 pm

    Why America (and the World) Still Fears Russia's Lethal Battlecruisers

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  wilhelm on Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:38 pm

    A few pics of work going on Admiral Nakhimov.




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    A1RMAN

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  A1RMAN on Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:44 pm

    As time goes by, 2018 doesn't seems so far away.

    What's your opinion on modernized 1144 potential against foreign fleets (excluding US)? While most of discussion is aimed at comparing Russian fleet to US fleet, lately it was "discovered" that there are potential clashes against other fleets - Turkish, for example.

    While some of the upgrades that Nakhimov gonna get are still uncertain, we can already get pretty good idea what force it's gonna be after current "medium" modernization.

    Many posters on russian forums are surprisingly negative to Orlan cruisers and express opinions varying from "They shouldn't have been built in the first place" to "This modernization is just money dump".
    Calmer ones point that most important factor is price, and if the price is right all 4 Orlans should be repaired and modernized.

    I think the important factor here is that Russia has substantial troubles with new ship building and it's safe to say has failed 2020 State Armaments Program in this area. It really hard to say now, when Russian will be able to build modern cruisers, destroyers or aircraft carriers. Most likely we can expect them to got into service not earlier than 2025, and produced enough for at least Northern Fleet after 2030.

    If this prediction is right, there's no alternative to 1144, 1164 as the main surface ships. So is modernized 1144 potent enough to be a core of Russian fleet against foreign fleets like Turkey, Japan etc. in upcoming decade?
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    kvs

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  kvs on Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:50 pm

    A1RMAN wrote:As time goes by, 2018 doesn't seems so far away.

    What's your opinion on modernized 1144 potential against foreign fleets (excluding US)? While most of discussion is aimed at comparing Russian fleet to US fleet, lately it was "discovered" that there are potential clashes against other fleets - Turkish, for example.

    While some of the upgrades that Nakhimov gonna get are still uncertain, we can already get pretty good idea what force it's gonna be after current "medium" modernization.

    Many posters on russian forums are surprisingly negative to Orlan cruisers and express opinions varying from "They shouldn't have been built in the first place" to "This modernization is just money dump".
    Calmer ones point that most important factor is price, and if the price is right all 4 Orlans should be repaired and modernized.

    I think the important factor here is that Russia has substantial troubles with new ship building and it's safe to say has failed 2020 State Armaments Program in this area. It really hard to say now, when Russian will be able to build modern cruisers, destroyers or aircraft carriers. Most likely we can expect them to got into service not earlier than 2025, and produced enough for at least Northern Fleet after 2030.

    If this prediction is right, there's no alternative to 1144, 1164 as the main surface ships. So is modernized 1144 potent enough to be a core of Russian fleet against foreign fleets like Turkey, Japan etc. in upcoming decade?

    Upgrading "old Soviet junk" makes it totally modern as far as the important elements are concerned: firepower, detection ability and communications.
    This is something NATO fanbois fail to grasp. Reality does not care about cosmetics.
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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:16 pm

    A1RMAN wrote:So is modernized 1144 potent enough to be a core of Russian fleet against foreign fleets like Turkey, Japan etc. in upcoming decade?

    Surely you are not serious with this question?? The Nakhimov is undergoing deep modernisation of weapons and sensors and comprehensive refurb of her propulsion and marine systems, and once back in service, she will be the most powerful surface combatant (non-carrier) on the planet. I don't think there is any real doubt that Nakhimov and her sisters-ships are capable of fulfilling such a role.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Oct 09, 2016 3:06 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    A1RMAN wrote:So is modernized 1144 potent enough to be a core of Russian fleet against foreign fleets like Turkey, Japan etc. in upcoming decade?

    Surely you are not serious with this question?? The Nakhimov is undergoing deep modernisation of weapons and sensors and comprehensive refurb of her propulsion and marine systems, and once back in service, she will be the most powerful surface combatant (non-carrier) on the planet.  I don't think there is any real doubt that Nakhimov and her sisters-ships are capable of fulfilling such a role.

    Problem is even if they modernize all four and they only confirmed two so far, all four will not be able to be a huge factor in a major naval battle. They would require at least 10 with high numbers of Destroyers, frigates etc has support.

    It's a good ship no doubt but 4 ships alone cannot carry a war.
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    kvs

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    Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 09, 2016 4:39 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    A1RMAN wrote:So is modernized 1144 potent enough to be a core of Russian fleet against foreign fleets like Turkey, Japan etc. in upcoming decade?

    Surely you are not serious with this question?? The Nakhimov is undergoing deep modernisation of weapons and sensors and comprehensive refurb of her propulsion and marine systems, and once back in service, she will be the most powerful surface combatant (non-carrier) on the planet.  I don't think there is any real doubt that Nakhimov and her sisters-ships are capable of fulfilling such a role.

    Problem is even if they modernize all four and they only confirmed two so far, all four will not be able to be a huge factor in a major naval battle. They would require at least 10 with high numbers of Destroyers, frigates etc has support.

    It's a good ship no doubt but 4 ships alone cannot carry a war.

    You are lumping all the assets of the US into a single theater. That is not likely to happen at all. You also make it sound like all the other
    missile-equipped Russian ships are totally useless. Face it giant destroyers are dinosaurs like aircraft carriers. They were relevant for WWII
    and not for missile wars like WWIII. In fact, having a collection of smaller ships which can carry even more missiles than one big one is vastly
    better since they avoid the "all the eggs in one basket" problem.

    Russia has the money and is doing the job of overhauling its ships to serve modern purposes. Many people are still engaged in obsolete thinking.

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