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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

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    PapaDragon
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:57 pm

    Entire lenghty article here:   http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/07/ukrainian-economy-after-year-of-reforms.html

    Assorted pics:

    Somewhat racist, still funny Very Happy




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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:00 pm

    You just beat me to it PapaDragon, but this is my take anyway.

    This is a long article but it is the best that I have seen so far on the slide of Ukraine into being a Banana Republic and what that means. Worth the read. The in country financial sh*t will really hit in the Autumn. These are the first paragraphs.

    Ukrainian economy after a year of "reforms": Banana republic without bananas
    Translated by Tatzhit.   7/5/15 Original by Yuri Lukashin http://blogs.korrespondent.net/blog/politics/3514298/
    Preface by the translator

    What is the key take-home point of this article?

    It shows that, even if there was minimal resistance to the coup from Russians inside and outside Ukraine, turning Ukraine into a banana republic would inevitably bring economic ruin and collapse. The same collapse that recently got the Pro-American, Pro-Kiev fugitive Georgian ex-president Saakashvili to declare "If we achieve 4% economic growth per year, it would take us 20 years to get to pre-Maidan levels". The same collapse that is doing more damage to the Ukrainian nation than the smoldering war in Donbass.

    As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words. So I posted both. Pictures first - see for yourself how "good" Western reforms were for Ukraine... Bulgaria, Moldova, Georgia, Serbia, Libya, Syria, Iraq - how many countries does it take to realize the talk about "prosperity" is just empty promises?


    Full article at http://fortruss.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/ukrainian-economy-after-year-of-reforms.html

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  JohninMK on Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:07 pm

    This sounds like one very brave, or foolish Ukrainian. Didn't he manage to get to the official US briefing?

    HELSINKI (Sputnik) – A Ukrainian delegate at OSCE parliamentary debates on an anti-Russia resolution called for objectivity on Monday as he drew attention to Kiev’s shortfalls on the Minsk peace deal.

    Ukraine and Canada have put forth a draft resolution that condemns Russia’s alleged involvement in Ukraine’s crisis, a claim Moscow has repeatedly denied.

    "I cannot avoid drawing your attention to one-sided nature of the proposed resolution," Nestor Shufrych said at the Parliamentary Assembly meeting of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). He said it was his duty to draw attention of OSCE delegates to the fact that "on the part of the Ukrainian authorities, there was not even one step taken for implementation of Minsk agreements."

    Shufrych said Monday that "amendments to the constitution that were due to be introduced do not reflect the basic principles of Minsk agreements." He accused the Ukrainian government of being under pressure of the "party of war" to continue the military operation with the support of the West that has killed over 6,500 people, according to UN estimates.

    The delegate also pointed to continued human rights violations in Ukraine that prosecuted those who do not share the government’s stance on the conflict in the southeast, including broadcasters. "If we want a full implementation of Minsk accords, we must be objective when doing so," the delegate concluded.

    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20150706/1024287248.html#ixzz3f8ESoe00

    This is from Wiki on him "In the October 2014 Ukrainian parliamentary election Shufrych was again re-elected into parliament; this time after placing 11th on the electoral list of Opposition Bloc."


    Last edited by JohninMK on Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Wiki bit added)

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Khepesh on Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:28 pm

    Further on Odessa today. A small group of protestors blocked Gaidar street with banners calling Saakashvili a war criminal and to go. They are attacked by masked uniformed men, presumably pravy sektor. This small action is brave as SBU will study all video and record faces and trace them.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Ghoster on Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:03 pm

    http://nahnews.org/272809-girkin-strelkov-obvinil-zaxarchenko-i-plotnickogo-v-slive-dnr-i-lnr/ wrote:Moscow, July 5.

    Former Defense Minister Igor DNI Girkin criticized the action of the current head of DNR and LC. According to him, Alexander and Igor Zakharchenko Carpenter engaged in "draining" of their republics, and in general of New Russia . Girkin also said that Zakharchenko and carpentry became leaders of the young republics as a result of Moscow's policy, and accused the head of the DNI in the delivery of their republic.

       "I understand that it is not easy, but he has to understand what it is the republic. He leads her to surrender! For him, the people voted in as head of the DNI, and it has already become a head of the Donetsk region. He legitimize itself! I was silent for a long time and did not criticize it as and carpenter, "- said Girkin.

    It is worth noting that Strelkov-Girkin not forget to comment on the murder of the battalion "Ghost" Alexei Mozgovoy, who was one of the most prominent leaders of the revolution in LC, but could not find a common language with Valery Bolotov, the former head of the republic.

       "The version that acted Ukrainian DRGs I do not believe even once. This is the version for the press to reassure the public. I have for this reason. I talked with people who were present at the scene. None of them did not even hinted about the Ukrainian DRG ", - said Girkin.


    DRG is Диверсионно-разведывательная группа - Sabotage and reconnaissance group.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  BKP on Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:39 pm

    I'm wondering if anyone else took notice of these illuminating articles:

    Ukraine Crisis Is Also About Corporations Doing Their Utmost to Capture Its Fertile Soil
    Ukraine’s precious black earth is being steadily annexed by international corporations connected to western governments
    Mon, Jun 29
    http://russia-insider.com/en/black-earth-and-struggle-ukraines-future/ri8373

    Article states some amazing numbers:
    One of the largest agro-holding companies operating in Ukraine is AgroGeneration...

    The company has amassed 120,000 hectares of arable land, with 70,000 hectares being located in Kharkov oblast, whose eponymous capital is a city of great political and military importance in Ukraine.

    This is an incredibly large holding. I read a book entitled "The King of California," which chronicled the rise of the Boswell family, which came to accumulate what is described as "the largest privately-owned farm in world." It topped out at some 200,000 acres at its peak. A massive holding. The story of the Boswell family was also about the simultaneous rise of "big Ag" as we know it today. This family is now immensely wealthy. I'm sure it would be a huge accounting project to pin down an approximate figure of their net worth.

    Well, given that the conversion factor from hectacres to acres is about 2.5 to 1, the present holding of this AgroGeneration are much bigger than that of Boswell.

    And, as the article relates, they're working fast and diligently, along with the US & EU governments, to undermine current Ukrainian laws and sell that land off to the Western corporate majors: Monsanto, Cargill, DuPont, etc.

    Anytime you want to figure out why the US government and it's European lapdogs are doing anything, one of the first things to check is where the money is.

    At, mp.net, some regs called me "retard" just for saying something like "Why is the US government hanging onto Ukraine so tenaciously? There must be something of value." No, no... Washington is Galahad with Hellfire missiles, to be sure!  lol1


    Which reminds me this article from a little while ago, also very illuminating:

    Deindustrialization, NATO-Style
    Gregory Elich, April 15, 2015
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/04/15/deindustrialization-nato-style/

    As a member of a delegation travelling throughout Yugoslavia shortly after the end of the war, I could readily see that... targeting had been methodical and thorough. Wherever we went, there was no military value in the facilities that NATO chose to destroy. Indeed, the common criterion was that state-owned and worker cooperative factories and plants that supported many people were singled out. The apparent intent was to drive much of the population into destitution and make people more amenable to demands to install government eager to do the West’s bidding.

    The largest and most significant factory complex in the Balkans was Zastava, producing over 95 percent of the automobiles operating in Yugoslavia. Centrally located in the city of Kragujevac, this diverse factory complex also manufactured tools and machinery.

    Of course, NATO bombed the shit out of it, and...

    In all, destruction at Zastava was estimated to amount to $1 billion, straining the Yugoslav government’s ability to finance its reconstruction. But that did not deter efforts. By January 2000, eighty percent of the rubble had been cleared at Zastava, a monumental endeavor in itself. Before long, small-scale production resumed, which could only have been accomplished through efforts on a heroic scale.

    Reconstruction continued, but after CIA-backed regime change in October 2000, the direction of Zastava’s future followed a different path. Hell-bent on privatizing the entire economy, the new government issued an ultimatum to workers at Zastava plants: accept a plan in which two-thirds of the workforce would be laid off, or Zastava would be closed down altogether...

    Zastava was privatized in 2008, and soon after became a subsidiary of Fiat. It eventually was fully owned by Fiat-Chrysler Automobiles. Once ownership passed to Fiat, the Italian firm ignored its pledge not to dismiss workers, and immediately cut the remaining workforce in half. Protesting workers occupied City Hall, to no avail. They were quickly defeated.

    With workers mocked as lazy parasites, neoliberal propaganda was in full swing. The government, which had long derided state-owned Zastava for relying on state subsidies, saw no contradiction in offering Fiat monopoly status, subsidies of ten thousand Euros per worker, and subsidies to support sales over for the first year. Fiat was also granted an exemption from paying any taxes whatsoever for a period of ten years, and land was given gratis to Fiat’s foreign component partners. A duty-free industrial zone was created for Fiat, with the government providing cost-free infrastructure. In all, these gifts to Fiat dwarfed any subsidies that state-owned Zastava ever received.

    Back in 2001, privatization minister Vlahovich observed, “Zastava became an example, I hope, of tomorrow’s successful restructuring of the whole country.” And so it did, as foreign corporations now dominate the economy, the nation’s workforce subsists on abysmally low wages, and unemployment is at depression levels. For those who once proudly worked at Zastava, their economic rape is complete.

    But remember, it's not about corporate plunder, it's all about "freeedumb!"

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Prince Darling on Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:57 pm

    so you think Fiat factory in Serbia is a bad thing?

    the biggest private firm in the country and the biggest exporter in the country.

    not sure if serious or just one more lunatic with the imf jews and some shadow cloakesters controling the world

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  BKP on Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:10 pm

    Prince Darling wrote:so you think Fiat factory in Serbia is a bad thing?

    the biggest private firm in the country and the biggest exporter in the country.

    not sure if serious or just one more lunatic with the imf jews and some shadow cloakesters controling the world

    Seriously now, are you out of your mind? Oh, and you're going to play the anti-Semitism card too? Isn't that a bit like:



    Last edited by BKP on Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

    Flagship Victory
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Flagship Victory on Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:11 pm

    Looks like there was some heavy shelling of Donetsk today. Grads reportedly used. Fireworks for tomorrow's Minsk meeting.

    http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-504-despite-shirokino-withdrawal-attacks-spread-near-mariupol/

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Prince Darling on Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:44 pm

    BKP wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:so you think Fiat factory in Serbia is a bad thing?

    the biggest private firm in the country and the biggest exporter in the country.

    not sure if serious or just one more lunatic with the imf jews and some shadow cloakesters controling the world

    Seriously now, are you out of your mind? Oh, and you're going to play the anti-Semitism card too? Isn't that a bit like:


    Ok scratch the evil bankster comment, how do you explain 1B $ direct investment by far the largest in the modern histroy of Serbia is a bad thing.
    And if you think antiquated Zastava production could be sold outside Serbia today you are a bit naive to be honest.

    Please dont comment on economy if you havent got the slightest clue

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  BKP on Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:15 pm

    Prince Darling wrote:
    BKP wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:so you think Fiat factory in Serbia is a bad thing?

    the biggest private firm in the country and the biggest exporter in the country.

    not sure if serious or just one more lunatic with the imf jews and some shadow cloakesters controling the world

    Seriously now, are you out of your mind? Oh, and you're going to play the anti-Semitism card too? Isn't that a bit like:


    Ok scratch the evil bankster comment, how do you explain 1B $ direct investment by far the largest in the modern histroy of Serbia is a bad thing.
    And if you think antiquated Zastava production could be sold outside Serbia today you are a bit naive to be honest.

    Please dont comment on economy if you havent got the slightest clue

    Here's all I really need to know about Zastava plant: It's workers stayed inside as human shields in what proved a vain attempt to ward off NATO missiles. "Vain" because NATO knew about this, and yet bombed it anyhow. It's all detailed in the article if you would bother to read it. Those workers certainly didn't want the plant "sold" as you said, let alone leveled.

    Admittedly, I do live in the plutocratic "West," not Serbia. Maybe you imagine it as a sort of paradise. Well, if I ever hear they're going to bomb my workplace, I'll be out before my pen hits the desk. Ward off bombs with my own body to protect it? HA! HA! HA!

    You apologists for neo-liberalism always start by spouting dollar figures about things like "investment," just as you did in your last reply, or "profit" or "quarterly performance" or some shit. You never start the discussion from the standpoint of meeting human needs. And that's why you and your ilk are a scourge.

    Anyhow, you can say whatever you want about it. Mentioning the Serbian situation was to illustrate a general point regarding the process of Western exploitation that is playing itself out again, this time in Ukraine. I don't want it to become a tangent.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:23 pm

    Prince Darling wrote:
    BKP wrote:
    Prince Darling wrote:so you think Fiat factory in Serbia is a bad thing?

    the biggest private firm in the country and the biggest exporter in the country.

    not sure if serious or just one more lunatic with the imf jews and some shadow cloakesters controling the world

    Seriously now, are you out of your mind? Oh, and you're going to play the anti-Semitism card too? Isn't that a bit like:


    Ok scratch the evil bankster comment, how do you explain 1B $ direct investment by far the largest in the modern histroy of Serbia is a bad thing.
    And if you think antiquated Zastava production could be sold outside Serbia today you are a bit naive to be honest.

    Please dont comment on economy if you havent got the slightest clue

    Well, technically, they could and would have. And most of the profit would have stayed inside. For example is Sollers Russia. They could have used the plant to produce outside models and not simply kit cars, I mean actual manufacturing of 50% of the parts and they would most probably get contracts through Fiat and others. Having it simply just FIAT means they are completely in control of another company whos location is somewhere else. If the company faces issues, it means problems for your plant as well.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:58 pm

    ^ ^ ^

    Off Topic Off Topic Off Topic Off Topic Off Topic

    Flagship Victory
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Flagship Victory on Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:30 am

    OSCE tries to trick NAF into making more places demilitarized AKA Maidan controlled.

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-hopes-donbas-demilitarization-will-extend-beyond-shyrokyne-392826.html

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:45 am

    Prince Darling wrote:so you think Fiat factory in Serbia is a bad thing?

    the biggest private firm in the country and the biggest exporter in the country.

    not sure if serious or just one more lunatic with the imf jews and some shadow cloakesters controling the world

    A FIAT factory in Srbija isn't a bad thing, and it merely came to fruition because FIAT was in a very bad position and wanted a cheap solution to the whole price war between the low cost solutions everybody had in Europe (VAG in Poland and Czech Rep, Renault with Dacia etc).

    Being the biggest private firm doesn't help with the level of redundancies in Srbija, yes or no? So far it is only the 500L that sells abroad (meaning hard cash) while the Punto Classic is aimed at the local and regional market (with a lower price tag).

    If the Italians build the new Aegea/Athena in Kragujevac then yes, we would talk about a real long term investment... After all, FIAT burnt 2 billion for the three platforms of the new Alfa range, 700 million is nothing.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:34 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:OSCE tries to trick NAF into making more places demilitarized AKA Maidan controlled.  

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-hopes-donbas-demilitarization-will-extend-beyond-shyrokyne-392826.html
    Thank you for bringing this discussion back on track Flagship. Good assessment of the article as well. I'll give you a +1 for this.

    Shame that there isn't much of an alternative other than OSCE as a monitor for this conflict

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:02 am

    It didn't take them long to rubbish that letter.

    The office of US Senator Richard Durbin has denounced as a forgery a letter allegedly written by him giving direct orders to Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk and sent to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), Durbin spokesman Ben Marter told RIA Novosti.

    WASHINGTON (Sputnik) — The letter was published on the Facebook page of Ukraine's former Minister of Foreign Affairs Leonid Kozhara.

    “This letter is a forgery and was obviously written by somebody with a tenuous grasp of the English language,” Marter stated on Monday. “We’ve referred the matter to the FBI and CIA [Central Intelligence Agency].” Unknown hackers leaked a letter addressed to Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk from US Senator Richard Durbin, assuring support and instructing him which key officials should and shouldn’t remain in office. Kozhara wrote that he copied the letter from the website news-front.info, which in turn got it from the website of hacker group cyberguerilla.org.

    The original file was allegedly received by the hacker group Anonymous. According to the letter, Durbin assured Yatsenyuk that the US Senate still supported him and was concerned by Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko's recent removal of some key political figures.

    In the disputed letter, Durbin allegedly told Yatsenyuk on behalf of himself and other US Senators not to appoint certain individuals to certain positions in the Ukrainian government.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/us/20150707/1024300941.html#ixzz3f9vKehAm

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  BKP on Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:45 am

    Sorry, but I have to say that the replies about the Serbian factory article I posted got decidedly weird. It's like we're investigators, and I said "hey, some mafia members murdered a guy to acquire a commercial property he owned. Then they burned it down and fraudulently collected on an insurance policy and a federal program. Then the lot was sold to a third party who opened a laundromat on it. There's a pattern to this criminal activity relevant to another case we're looking at right now."

    Then, a giant red herring came out of nowhere and slapped me in the face with "hey f*ckin' ignorant commie, what do you have against laundromats?? Are you saying the community shouldn't have one?! Besides, the original property was pretty run down." (that'd be you there, prince).

    Then i say "uh, wtf does that have to do with anything?"

    Then others chime in with "well, a laundromat is cool, but it just needed more modern washing machines, and, um, a better selection of magazines on the table by the benches."

    Really, it was pretty incredible. dunno No

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Vann7 on Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:28 am

    Ukraine .. a Banana Republic without Bananas..  lol1




    Here the past and future of UKraine and its Euromaidans.. .. Wink

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Flagship Victory on Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:29 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:OSCE tries to trick NAF into making more places demilitarized AKA Maidan controlled.  

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-hopes-donbas-demilitarization-will-extend-beyond-shyrokyne-392826.html
    Thank you for bringing this discussion back on track Flagship. Good assessment of the article as well. I'll give you a +1 for this.

    Shame that there isn't much of an alternative other than OSCE as a monitor for this conflict

    OSCE is nothing but a western / IMF tool. OSCE should never have been part of the Minsk agreement.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:12 am

    Flagship Victory wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    Flagship Victory wrote:OSCE tries to trick NAF into making more places demilitarized AKA Maidan controlled.  

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-hopes-donbas-demilitarization-will-extend-beyond-shyrokyne-392826.html
    Thank you for bringing this discussion back on track Flagship. Good assessment of the article as well. I'll give you a +1 for this.

    Shame that there isn't much of an alternative other than OSCE as a monitor for this conflict

    OSCE is nothing but a western / IMF tool. OSCE should never have been part of the Minsk agreement.
    The OSCE had boots on the ground long before Minsk. As far as I read into it, there are some good observers who really do care for the people of Donabss and some bad ones who essentially function as spies and diplomatic tools for Ukraine.

    Novorossiya has no good way to counter the diplomatic pressure from the OSCE through any proxy, but the NAF doesn't need to use an international organization to spy on the Ukrops because of the vast number of Novorossiyan sympathizers within Ukraine and saboteurs working deep behind enemy lines (most likely elite Russian Spetsnaz operators).

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  whir on Tue Jul 07, 2015 9:15 am

    Юго-ВОСТОК информационно-аналитическое агентство wrote:Tactical training tank battalion NM LNR

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  JohninMK on Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:01 pm

    The contact groups get fired up in Minsk today. This is 'dreamland' from the economic group perhaps they don't understand the phrase 'economic blockade'.

    MOSCOW, July 7. /TASS/. The Contact Group’s subgroup on economy is due to discuss Tuesday in Minsk options for restoring the work of the banking system in Donbas, the envoy of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic to the talks, Denis Pushilin, has said. "There are particular proposals in the economic subgroup - if the banking system cannot be fully restored, let’s open a branch in Donetsk and Luhansk," Pushilin was quoted by the Donetsk news agency as saying.

    The authorities of the self-proclaimed republics are ready to take charge of security issues. Europe has also offered its assistance in this issue, according to Pushilin. The discussion on any economic issues is rather painful for the Ukrainian side, the Donetsk republic’s envoy said, adding: "When it comes to specific issues, Ukraine traditionally gets away.".

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:21 pm

    Flagship Victory wrote:OSCE tries to trick NAF into making more places demilitarized AKA Maidan controlled.  

    http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-hopes-donbas-demilitarization-will-extend-beyond-shyrokyne-392826.html


    I am also giving you a +1 vote. However, while some of the issues you emphasize are to some extent correct in a phenomenological sense, many of your assertions are not right because etiologically you are not right.

    If you read some of the old posts on this thread, you'll find that the most "probably correct" etiology is partially given in those early posts.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

    Post  gregoire on Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:18 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Ukraine .. a Banana Republic without Bananas..  lol1




    Here the past and  future of UKraine and its Euromaidans.. .. Wink

    2014


    2020



    Banana republics do not refer to any african country.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

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