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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

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    higurashihougi
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  higurashihougi on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:40 am

    F-15E wrote:Russia is just sending 'humanitarian aid' to eastern Ukraine ?
    Russia is already supplying the separatists with weapons....
    If Russia doesn't,Where are they getting all of these weapons from?  lol1
    BTR-82As,T72B3s,MSTA-Ss etc...

    thumbsup

    Do you know that the series of T-72, T-64, T-80 have very similar outer apperance and Ukie can easily fake a Russian T-72 ?

    Do you know that Ukie and Russia share many weapons and weapons tech, too ?

    Do you know that T-72B3 is the newest modernization of Russian T-72, and only Russia uses it ? Do you think it is wise to send a tank that everybody can easily recognize "it is Russia" ?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  F-15E on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:56 am

    and Ukie can easily fake a Russian T-72 ?

    Nope they can't.


    How do you want them to "fake" a Russian T72B3 ?

    if you look in it,you can see thales components,and it is also written in Russian right ?





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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Regular on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:42 am

    Of course weapons and military advisers were sent.
    The thing Garry said was about Russia admitting that rebels are armed. If USA will be openly arming Ukrainian army then there is no reason to hide.
    it will untie Russian hands in supplying them and will stop talks about Russia having its army doing all the fighting.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Regular on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:56 am

    Hannibal Barca wrote:What I don't like with Putin is what I don;t like in Russia's foreign policy for a century now. It is way too complicated, indirect and mystified.
    Russia always lacked commitment and initiative especially when protecting it's allies. In cases like Syrian Russia could really help by putting sf boots and airfirce with artillery in Syria as they are desperately needed to end this conflict. Weapon systems like TOS, BMPTs even in small numbers could do wonders in Syria even in small numbers. Russia is not a military ally of anyone(talking globally), but then again maybe it's because they don't want to waste lives and money like Soviets did around the globe trying to help everyone in their fights.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Hannibal Barca on Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:32 am

    Agree 100%
    The problem is that Russia was, and probably still is, flirting with the idea of being acceptable in West as a butt kisser of United States and probably as a punching bag but at least one of them (I should say us but I hate the fact and I don't consider myself Western anyway).
    Lets be cynical, that's the reality.
    Problem is, if you accept wrongdoing to others then wrongdoing coming to you.
    They accepted crimes against Iran, manipulation against Libya, Palestine and others, misinformation about nations United States hate all around the world and now they receive the same treatment. And I kinda like this, they get what they deserve.
    Funny is Russia never tried to say a single word about all this dictatorships in Western Europe, now they get this oppressors to play the guardians of democracy against Russia.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:51 am

    That will now change probably. Russia wasnt much of that prior to Soviet Union. Well, issue is now west is clearly treating it wrong now and Russia has no choice but to turn to its allies, which will be difficult due to lack of trust.

    This is why I think Russia has been pushing for the laws on PMC groups to opperate in Russia. It is much easier to use them in geopolitical goals than your own troops.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  VladimirSahin on Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:03 pm

    Putin should just start with sanctions back and increase tension on Ukraine it should just destroy Ukraine's economy from what it is now,  And increase gas prices and punish Europe with that.  And if NATO starts sending more weaponry and equipment a special forces operation should take place where all important sites are destroyed.  And then the west will see what would happen if Russia really did have troops in Ukraine! While at it should also assassinate key targets.  

    People do not understand that if Russian military really was present in that war there simply would be no more war finished in first weeks,  Claims such as T-72B3s and BTR-82s are really not logical at all if you think about it.  Russian army strategies are more different then what is going on in east Ukraine, a special forces operation alone would have lead Ukraine's operation to a halt,  If Russia really does give this equipment to the rebels then where is the counter battery radars? are they malfunctioning? because everyday children and women are being ripped into chunks of flesh.

    I had to write this after seeing videos showing children, and old women ripped to pieces by shells,  And countless other acts committed by Ukraine.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:46 pm

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1095829.html

    A Really nice long post (From all-russian sourced mind you Smile ) about the equipment Russia has sent over the border.

    For those who are still in denial land.


    From the pics the situation is becoming clearer. IMO Russian army sent ad-hoc formations of volunteers, counted on their unit's equipment into the fighting when the Ukrainian advance was at its peak. After the big pockets were destroyed, they pulled them back. There were losses though they seem to have been relatively minor. Artillery from ex-military people from both Donbass and Russia I think stayed around for much longer than actual "quasi-Russian army" armored units.

    No denying it at this point. Russian army has taken an informal part in the fighting.
    On the upside apparently one of the T-72B3s took ATGM hits and was able to drive off and survive just fine. So not all hit hits blew up.


    Last edited by TR1 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:55 pm

    Out of curiosity, how hard and how expensive would it have been to replace those IR sensors on the T-64's with modern Thermal imager?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:57 pm

    TR1 wrote:http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1095829.html

    A Really nice long post (From all-russian sourced mind you Smile ) about the equipment Russia has sent over the border.

    For those who are still in denial land.

    Of course a livejournal... Rolling Eyes

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:02 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Out of curiosity, how hard and how expensive would it have been to replace those IR sensors on the T-64's with modern Thermal imager?

    Thermals are expensive. Mounting them is comparatively easy.
    Seps needed tanks badly apparently. Getting old stored T-64s was rushed enough without trying to modify them with thermals.
    The T-72B3s definitely have thermals however, Sosna-U. However those have not been handed over properly to the Seps-they went in (with Russian crews I am sure), fought, then left. We have not seen any pics of them since summer....

    BTW: That article that I posted has some errors. For example some T-72s are counted twice when they have been confirmed on LostArmor to be the same.
    Some were captured by Ukranians and then destroyed, some were captured then captured back.
    Not sure what the hell those tank drivers were doing to get into a position where 1.) Those two burned out T-72s were hit in the wide open and 2.) They had to abandon that barely damaged T-72, that was later captured by the Ukrainians later destroyed.....but I guess they are fighting within a fairly patchy framework, and not with the support of actual full Russian military formations and assets. So fuck ups are expected.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:09 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:LOL a nuclear false flag attack?

    You been hitting the pipe more than usual Vann?

    There was and is still a plan by USA that was designed during 1970s to attack a Soviet friendly country like GDR with US and to lure out Soviet troops on german soil and than to use an average of 300 tactical nukes to decimate Soviet military troops. Don't remember the actual Operation name, something vocally similiar to Operation Battle Royal.

    You know both sides made a bunch of really nutty "doomsday" scenarios during the Cold War right?

    I wouldn't be surprised if there was a plan to depopulate random non-aligned countries with nukes to make sure they don't have a relative power gain after a full nuclear exchange.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:17 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Out of curiosity, how hard and how expensive would it have been to replace those IR sensors on the T-64's with modern Thermal imager?

    Thermals are expensive. Mounting them is comparatively easy.
    Seps needed tanks badly apparently. Getting old stored T-64s was rushed enough without trying to modify them with thermals.
    The T-72B3s definitely have thermals however, Sosna-U. However those have not been handed over properly to the Seps-they went in (with Russian crews I am sure), fought, then left. We have not seen any pics of them since summer....

    BTW: That article that I posted has some errors. For example some T-72s are counted twice when they have been confirmed on LostArmor to be the same.
    Some were captured by Ukranians and then destroyed, some were captured then captured back.
    Not sure what the hell those tank drivers were doing to get into a position where 1.) Those two burned out T-72s were hit in the wide open and 2.) They had to abandon that barely damaged T-72, that was later captured by the Ukrainians later destroyed.....but I guess they are fighting within a fairly patchy framework, and not with the support of actual full Russian military formations and assets. So fuck ups are expected.

    I still think they were given to the seps, no evidence of the troops involved. But still wouldn't make much sense of either or. The T-64's being upgraded with Thermals would have done wonders for the seps, far more than what is currently used. From my understanding, those IR sensors were near useless.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:28 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Out of curiosity, how hard and how expensive would it have been to replace those IR sensors on the T-64's with modern Thermal imager?

    Thermals are expensive. Mounting them is comparatively easy.
    Seps needed tanks badly apparently. Getting old stored T-64s was rushed enough without trying to modify them with thermals.
    The T-72B3s definitely have thermals however, Sosna-U. However those have not been handed over properly to the Seps-they went in (with Russian crews I am sure), fought, then left. We have not seen any pics of them since summer....

    BTW: That article that I posted has some errors. For example some T-72s are counted twice when they have been confirmed on LostArmor to be the same.
    Some were captured by Ukranians and then destroyed, some were captured then captured back.
    Not sure what the hell those tank drivers were doing to get into a position where 1.) Those two burned out T-72s were hit in the wide open and 2.) They had to abandon that barely damaged T-72, that was later captured by the Ukrainians later destroyed.....but I guess they are fighting within a fairly patchy framework, and not with the support of actual full Russian military formations and assets. So fuck ups are expected.

    I still think they were given to the seps, no evidence of the troops involved.  But still wouldn't make much sense of either or.  The T-64's being upgraded with Thermals would have done wonders for the seps, far more than what is currently used.  From my understanding, those IR sensors were near useless.

    Did you look @ the post fully?

    There are photos of people from Russian army units gathered in fields with vehicles that took part in fighting in Donbass. Some have obvious battle damage. And then there are the vkontakte posts by the Russian crews that are all but explicit about what they have been up to lately.
    Is some of that stuff fakable or possible not true? Yeah sure, but overall, a picture is shaping up.

    If they trained sep crews in Russia (or RUssian volunteers, w/e) then sent them into the fighting, there would be no reason to pull them back after the summer counter strike. But they dissapeared essentially.
    I think it makes sense in the context of it being Russian vacationing volunteers. I mean Strelkov and other seps have alluded as much.

    Re. thermals, the important counter attacking units (T-72B3s) had em. For most rebels normal T-72 or T-64 works fine. I don't think they do too much intensive night fighting. Thermal is nice, but expensive. All decent Russian thermals use French matrices anyways, I guess it might be hard to randomly amp up orders in the current political climate.

    I am guessing for the most important roles (artillery attacks on static Ukranian positions) they might have had forward spotters with thermal equipment.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:33 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:Out of curiosity, how hard and how expensive would it have been to replace those IR sensors on the T-64's with modern Thermal imager?

    Thermals are expensive. Mounting them is comparatively easy.
    Seps needed tanks badly apparently. Getting old stored T-64s was rushed enough without trying to modify them with thermals.
    The T-72B3s definitely have thermals however, Sosna-U. However those have not been handed over properly to the Seps-they went in (with Russian crews I am sure), fought, then left. We have not seen any pics of them since summer....

    BTW: That article that I posted has some errors. For example some T-72s are counted twice when they have been confirmed on LostArmor to be the same.
    Some were captured by Ukranians and then destroyed, some were captured then captured back.
    Not sure what the hell those tank drivers were doing to get into a position where 1.) Those two burned out T-72s were hit in the wide open and 2.) They had to abandon that barely damaged T-72, that was later captured by the Ukrainians later destroyed.....but I guess they are fighting within a fairly patchy framework, and not with the support of actual full Russian military formations and assets. So fuck ups are expected.

    I still think they were given to the seps, no evidence of the troops involved.  But still wouldn't make much sense of either or.  The T-64's being upgraded with Thermals would have done wonders for the seps, far more than what is currently used.  From my understanding, those IR sensors were near useless.

    Did you look @ the post fully?

    There are photos of people from Russian army units gathered in fields with vehicles that took part in fighting in Donbass. Some have obvious battle damage. And then there are the vkontakte posts by the Russian crews that are all but explicit about what they have been up to lately.
    Is some of that stuff fakable or possible not true? Yeah sure, but overall, a picture is shaping up.

    If they trained sep crews in Russia (or RUssian volunteers, w/e) then sent them into the fighting, there would be no reason to pull them back after the summer counter strike. But they dissapeared essentially.
    I think it makes sense in the context of it being Russian vacationing volunteers. I mean Strelkov and other seps have alluded as much.

    Re. thermals, the important counter attacking units (T-72B3s) had em. For most rebels normal T-72 or T-64 works fine. I don't think they do too much intensive night fighting. Thermal is nice, but expensive. All decent Russian thermals use French matrices anyways, I guess it might be hard to randomly amp up orders in the current political climate.

    I am guessing for the most important roles (artillery attacks on static Ukranian positions) they might have had forward spotters with thermal equipment.


    Well, the Thermals in Russia UOMZ are licensed from Thales, but there was Irbis-K mentioned a year back are Russian matrices (100% Russian thermal). So that would make a good alternative. There is also a company in Russia who owns the Thermal optic making company in Belarus as well. That said, I thought thermals were fantastic in day fighting too? To spot something that may be harder to see due to the woods? Anyway, I suppose the better protection would be more useful. But beside the ERA blocks, I cannot imagine they can do much else other than adding on slat armor.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:58 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4Ye69ckzU

    More Voentorg. Round 2 might be even bloodier if it happens Sad .

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:00 pm

    TR1 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4Ye69ckzU

    More Voentorg. Round 2 might be even bloodier if it happens Sad .

    whos gear?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:07 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4Ye69ckzU

    More Voentorg. Round 2 might be even bloodier if it happens Sad .

    whos gear?

    Voentorg- From Russia to separatists.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:14 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4Ye69ckzU

    More Voentorg. Round 2 might be even bloodier if it happens Sad .

    whos gear?

    Voentorg- From Russia to separatists.

    Ah, I see. I cannot see clearly, those T-64's?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:44 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:LOL a nuclear false flag attack?

    You been hitting the pipe more than usual Vann?

    There was and is still a plan by USA that was designed during 1970s to attack a Soviet friendly country like GDR with US and to lure out Soviet troops on german soil and than to use an average of 300 tactical nukes to decimate Soviet military troops. Don't remember the actual Operation name, something vocally similiar to Operation Battle Royal.

    You know both sides made a bunch of really nutty "doomsday" scenarios during the Cold War right?

    I wouldn't be surprised if there was a plan to depopulate random non-aligned countries with nukes to make sure they don't have a relative power gain after a full nuclear exchange.

    For Soviet Union it was just common sense to nuclear overkill some countries which were all NATO alined countries look at how many nukes are just in Europe they are a threat, not to mention germany, netherland, Turkey and who knows how many other countries in europe store US american nukes for only one and the same purpose first strike capability against russia. The US on the other hand had specific plans and still has specific plans to wage nuclear war on its "allies" territory, if you are an enemy it is something you can expect to be attacked by russia, if you are an ally it is not really expected to be vaporized by your own allies and just used as bait for the enemy forces.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:48 pm

    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4Ye69ckzU

    More Voentorg. Round 2 might be even bloodier if it happens Sad .

    whos gear?

    Voentorg- From Russia to separatists.

    Ah, I see.  I cannot see clearly, those T-64's?

    Looks like all T-64s and a BTR.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:52 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4Ye69ckzU

    More Voentorg. Round 2 might be even bloodier if it happens Sad .

    whos gear?

    Voentorg- From Russia to separatists.

    Ah, I see.  I cannot see clearly, those T-64's?

    Looks like all T-64s and a BTR.

    Majority of those pictures especially the first that are posted there are the same ukrainian crimean T-64's that were posted months ago.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Regular on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:01 pm

    VladimirSahin wrote:
    People do not understand that if Russian military really was present in that war there simply would be no more war finished in first weeks,  Claims such as T-72B3s and BTR-82s are really not logical at all if you think about it.  Russian army strategies are more different then what is going on in east Ukraine, a special forces operation alone would have lead Ukraine's operation to a halt,  If Russia really does give this equipment to the rebels then where is the counter battery radars? are they malfunctioning? because everyday children and women are being ripped into chunks of flesh.

    The problem is that rebels most of the time can't reach all ukrainian artillery positions.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:17 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:
    TR1 wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc4Ye69ckzU

    More Voentorg. Round 2 might be even bloodier if it happens Sad .

    whos gear?

    Voentorg- From Russia to separatists.

    Ah, I see.  I cannot see clearly, those T-64's?

    Looks like all T-64s and a BTR.

    Majority of those pictures especially the first that are posted there are the same ukrainian crimean T-64's that were posted months ago.

    What proof of you have of that?

    Why would Ukrainian Crimean T-64s be coming from Rostov direction?



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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #10

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:19 pm

    What russia needs to do is deploy ultimate weapon on any battlefield and that is highly trained personal for artillery and than provide the information where to strike, minimize losses and maximize effeciency and not some shitty ukrainian T-64's from crimea.

    What proof of you have of that?

    Why would Ukrainian Crimean T-64s be coming from Rostov direction?

    Because that is not just common sense, but also the fact that Crimea had deployed ukrainian technic, the fact that crimean bases would recieve modernized equipment like it was announced, so why would they keep the old stuff there, just to keep it somehow alive and waste money on it? Just pure fantasy you are grasping own.

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