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The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

sepheronx

sepheronx: Posts : 8532
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Post n°26

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

sepheronx Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:55 pm

[quote="Flagship Victory"]

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

2SPOOKY4U wrote:Saudi Arabia is likely to buy a ton of Russan weaponry. Ranging from BMP-3s and T-90s to a few Iskanders. The reason for that is that the Saudis want to diversify their arm imports so they won't have to rely only on the US and Europe and the Saudis feel that the Americans can no longer help them as they once have. There is a lot of news about it already. I personally have no problem with the new cooperation between Russia and Saudi Arabia as it signals a shift in the relationship and puts aside their differences.

It looks like Flagship has successfully baited you.

Why help Saudi Arabia instead of Syria? Considering its oil wealth, Saudi Arabia can never be pried from the western camp. Any aid to Saudi Arabia would turn neighboring Iran against Russia. Plus Saudi Arabia's Salafist ideology is not in Russia's interest. Saudi Arabia funds terrorism in Chechnya and Dagestan. If I were Putin I'd block any arms sales to Saudi Arabia.

No different than Russia selling tons of weapons to Azerbaijan while supporting Armenia.

Let us face it, it is a dog eat dog world. The defense organizations want to make money, they will make money. This doesn't mean Russia will stop support for Syria or Iran, heck, they can even further help them with having more money from sales. Iskander-E system isn't nearly as advanced as some may think, and clearly not compared to its domestic variant, so no threat from sales. If they use them, that will be Saudi's fault. They will obtain BM's of some sort regardless if Russia sells them or not.

Flagship Victory

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Post n°27

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Flagship Victory Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:58 pm

Next Minsk meeting on July 7, for the gazillionth time. Frankly, these Minsk meetings are about as boring as they come. Nothing will come out of them. I say, 1 more Minsk meeting. If nothing works, then Minsk is out the window and NAF should launch offensive against the Maidan government.

JohninMK

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Post n°28

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

JohninMK Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:59 pm

MOSCOW, July 5. /TASS/. Unilateral withdrawal of forces by the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) from the settlement of Shirokino located at the line of engagement in Donbass was a gesture of good will ahead of another meeting in Minsk, DPR head Alexander Zakharchenko told journalists on Sunday. "Ahead of the Minsk meeting, we have made a gesture of good will and demonstrated that problems can be settled by political means. We have turned from the conflict zone to a zone of peace," the Donetsk News Agency quoted him as saying. He said the situation in Shirokino was monitored by representatives of the Joint Centre for Coordination and Control (JCCC).

Earlier on Sunday, DPR Defence Minister Vladimir Kononov he hope the Ukrainian command of the force operation in Donbass would follow DPR’s lead and withdraw its troops from Shirokino. "We hope common sense would get the upper hand with the Ukrainian side. We, on our part, have already pulled put our troops. We don’t want to waste the lives and health of our servicemen," the Donetsk News Agency quoted him as saying.

On July 1, the DPR authorities announced unilateral demilitarization of the settlement of Shirokino. By today, all DPR militias have been withdrawn from this settlement. This fact has been confirmed by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

Flagship Victory

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Post n°29

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Flagship Victory Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:01 am

JohninMK wrote:MOSCOW, July 5. /TASS/. Unilateral withdrawal of forces by the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) from the settlement of Shirokino located at the line of engagement in Donbass was a gesture of good will ahead of another meeting in Minsk, DPR head Alexander Zakharchenko told journalists on Sunday. "Ahead of the Minsk meeting, we have made a gesture of good will and demonstrated that problems can be settled by political means. We have turned from the conflict zone to a zone of peace," the Donetsk News Agency quoted him as saying. He said the situation in Shirokino was monitored by representatives of the Joint Centre for Coordination and Control (JCCC).

Earlier on Sunday, DPR Defence Minister Vladimir Kononov he hope the Ukrainian command of the force operation in Donbass would follow DPR’s lead and withdraw its troops from Shirokino. "We hope common sense would get the upper hand with the Ukrainian side. We, on our part, have already pulled put our troops. We don’t want to waste the lives and health of our servicemen," the Donetsk News Agency quoted him as saying.

On July 1, the DPR authorities announced unilateral demilitarization of the settlement of Shirokino. By today, all DPR militias have been withdrawn from this settlement. This fact has been confirmed by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

The ball is in Maidan's court. But seeing how Maidan is fascist like Nazis, no way would Maidan withdraw troops from Shirokino. Lesson to be learned by NAF, you cannot fight fascists with good will.

JohninMK

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Post n°30

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

JohninMK Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:02 am

Ukraine has just fallen off the EU's 'to-do' list.

BERLIN, July 5. /TASS/. German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande called for an emergency summit of the leaders of Euro zone states on July 7, a spokesman for the German government said late on Sunday after telephone contacts between the two leaders prompted by the results of the Greek referendum. The two leaders agreed that the referendum results must be respected.

Neutrality

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Post n°31

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Neutrality Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:22 am

Is there anyone with the same suspicion that Putin gave Tsipras the idea to hold a referendum if the creditors wouldn't bend? It must have been a wild bet back then but now that the Greeks overwhelmingly voted "NO", Germany and France are forced to literally save the future of the Euro. Putin and Tsipras held talks behind closed doors after all and telephone conversations happened between Athens and Moscow. Sure, the gas deal was part of it but it couldn't have been JUST that. If you think about how it could benefit Moscow then 1 thing is for sure: it buys them more time. Then there's "using" the Greek situation as a quid pro quo. Putin could be telling Merkel something along the lines of "if you give me what I need, I promise I won't influence the Greeks against you". This part is difficult to imagine though. It would mean Tsipras allows Putin to use the Greek crisis as a carrot unless it equally benefits Tsipras too.

Thoughts?

(No, Flagship not you and no Haushofer please Laughing

)

Karl Haushofer

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Post n°32

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Karl Haushofer Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:53 am

Flagship Victory wrote:

The ball is in Maidan's court. But seeing how Maidan is fascist like Nazis, no way would Maidan withdraw troops from Shirokino. Lesson to be learned by NAF, you cannot fight fascists with good will.

If the NAF has not learned this by now then there is not much anyone can do.

2SPOOKY4U

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Post n°33

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

2SPOOKY4U Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:57 am

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

The ball is in Maidan's court. But seeing how Maidan is fascist like Nazis, no way would Maidan withdraw troops from Shirokino. Lesson to be learned by NAF, you cannot fight fascists with good will.

If the NAF has not learned this by now then there is not much anyone can do.

No need to talk to yourself.

Just stick to one account, makes ignoring your baiting easier.

Neutrality wrote:Is there anyone with the same suspicion that Putin gave Tsipras the idea to hold a referendum if the creditors wouldn't bend? It must have been a wild bet back then but now that the Greeks overwhelmingly voted "NO", Germany and France are forced to literally save the future of the Euro. Putin and Tsipras held talks behind closed doors after all and telephone conversations happened between Athens and Moscow. Sure, the gas deal was part of it but it couldn't have been JUST that. If you think about how it could benefit Moscow then 1 thing is for sure: it buys them more time. Then there's "using" the Greek situation as a quid pro quo. Putin could be telling Merkel something along the lines of "if you give me what I need, I promise I won't influence the Greeks against you". This part is difficult to imagine though. It would mean Tsipras allows Putin to use the Greek crisis as a carrot unless it equally benefits Tsipras too.

Thoughts?

It sounds interesting, but I would hope that Russia stay on its toes around Greece.

They did elect to join EU and NATO.

There is serious western influence in the government and military.

flamming_python

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Post n°34

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

flamming_python Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:25 am

Monarchist, talking to yourself again? Laughing

Erk

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Post n°35

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Erk Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:09 am

Neutrality wrote:Is there anyone with the same suspicion that Putin gave Tsipras the idea to hold a referendum if the creditors wouldn't bend? It must have been a wild bet back then but now that the Greeks overwhelmingly voted "NO", Germany and France are forced to literally save the future of the Euro. Putin and Tsipras held talks behind closed doors after all and telephone conversations happened between Athens and Moscow. Sure, the gas deal was part of it but it couldn't have been JUST that. If you think about how it could benefit Moscow then 1 thing is for sure: it buys them more time. Then there's "using" the Greek situation as a quid pro quo. Putin could be telling Merkel something along the lines of "if you give me what I need, I promise I won't influence the Greeks against you". This part is difficult to imagine though. It would mean Tsipras allows Putin to use the Greek crisis as a carrot unless it equally benefits Tsipras too.

Thoughts?

(No, Flagship not you and no Haushofer please )

I am quite sure Tsipras planned the referendum some time back, it's a simple political tool to transfer the blame for some hard decisions off the government and onto the people. It's got nothing really to do with Russia or Ukraine.

PapaDragon

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Post n°36

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

PapaDragon Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:26 am

JohninMK wrote:Ukraine has just fallen off the EU's 'to-do' list.

BERLIN, July 5. /TASS/. German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Francois Hollande called for an emergency summit of the leaders of Euro zone states on July 7, a spokesman for the German government said late on Sunday after telephone contacts between the two leaders prompted by the results of the Greek referendum. The two leaders agreed that the referendum results must be respected.

John, your sarcasm is an inspiration to us all! respekt

Flagship Victory

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Post n°37

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Flagship Victory Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:09 am

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

The ball is in Maidan's court. But seeing how Maidan is fascist like Nazis, no way would Maidan withdraw troops from Shirokino. Lesson to be learned by NAF, you cannot fight fascists with good will.

If the NAF has not learned this by now then there is not much anyone can do.

Yup. Imagine teaching the worst student ever. Yes that includes not giving Iskander missiles to Saudi Arabia which funds terrorism in Chechnya.

2SPOOKY4U

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Post n°38

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

2SPOOKY4U Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:22 am

Flagship Victory wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

The ball is in Maidan's court. But seeing how Maidan is fascist like Nazis, no way would Maidan withdraw troops from Shirokino. Lesson to be learned by NAF, you cannot fight fascists with good will.

If the NAF has not learned this by now then there is not much anyone can do.

Yup. Imagine teaching the worst student ever. Yes that includes not giving Iskander missiles to Saudi Arabia which funds terrorism in Chechnya.

The Situation in the Ukraine. #17 - Page 2 Talk-t10

BKP

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Post n°39

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

BKP Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:50 am

Neutrality wrote:Is there anyone with the same suspicion that Putin gave Tsipras the idea to hold a referendum if the creditors wouldn't bend? It must have been a wild bet back then but now that the Greeks overwhelmingly voted "NO", Germany and France are forced to literally save the future of the Euro. Putin and Tsipras held talks behind closed doors after all and telephone conversations happened between Athens and Moscow. Sure, the gas deal was part of it but it couldn't have been JUST that. If you think about how it could benefit Moscow then 1 thing is for sure: it buys them more time. Then there's "using" the Greek situation as a quid pro quo. Putin could be telling Merkel something along the lines of "if you give me what I need, I promise I won't influence the Greeks against you". This part is difficult to imagine though. It would mean Tsipras allows Putin to use the Greek crisis as a carrot unless it equally benefits Tsipras too.

Thoughts?

(No, Flagship not you and no Haushofer please )

Eh, who knows? I would really like to be able to transform myself into a gnat and back so I could eavesdrop on some of these meetings. Heck, I'd even sneak into Bohemian Grove, even if that risked accidentally catching a glimpse of Kissenger's naked pudendum.

I've only heard a couple of things more or less concrete in regard to Greece/Russia talks. I think in one of Alexander Mercouris' pieces he said Russia, Putin and Alexey Miller basically, offered the Greeks five billion $ up front to take Turk Stream ashore into Greece. There would be an agreement for ongoing transit payments and such. That would give Greece some breathing room during negotiations with the "troika." The thing seems to have come to naught, but who knows what may happen in the near future.

I also seem seem to remember reading some things about possible offers from Russia and China for funding from the BRICS New Development Bank. Whether or not that was intended to come into play after a Greek default, I can't remember. It might make sense that it would, though. After all, what would be the point in essentially handing good money over to the IMF and ECB?

My opinion of Tsipras had been going back and forth, but this referendum thing has been a masterstroke. Euro douchebags are always parroting the Washington criminals in extolling the virtues of "democracy." But EC and ECB officials went absolutely apeshit in condemning the referendum, which happens to be a real, actual example of direct democracy. So, Western lies and hypocrisy are being exposed to anyone paying a little attention.

And, speaking of which, how about that IMF? They won't cut Greece enough slack for them to do anything to rescue their economy, but they'll sure keep on funding that Rogues' gallery in Kiev so they can continue shelling civies in Donbass, impending national bankruptcy be damned.

Anyhow, the European economy, the financial system, is so leveraged that the next few weeks could get interesting. And maybe Spain, Italy, Portugal etc. will end up following suit and exit the EZ.

Cyberspec

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Post n°40

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Cyberspec Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:57 am

2SPOOKY4U wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:

The ball is in Maidan's court. But seeing how Maidan is fascist like Nazis, no way would Maidan withdraw troops from Shirokino. Lesson to be learned by NAF, you cannot fight fascists with good will.

If the NAF has not learned this by now then there is not much anyone can do.

Yup. Imagine teaching the worst student ever. Yes that includes not giving Iskander missiles to Saudi Arabia which funds terrorism in Chechnya.

JohninMK

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Post n°41

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

JohninMK Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:35 am

They can't even withdraw >100mm so how will they do <100mm?

MOSCOW, July 6. /TASS/. The agreement on pulling back the weapons under 100mm caliber from the front line may be signed in Minsk, Belarus, on Tuesday at the meeting of the Contact Group on settling the conflict in Donbas, the deputy chief of the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission in Ukraine has said.

"The Minsk subgroup on security issues of the Contact Group has unveiled a plan on withdrawing weapons under 100mm caliber, however the sides have not yet made the last steps on signing the final document. The OSCE hopes that this agreement will be inked in Minsk tomorrow," Alexander Hug was quoted by the LuganskInformCenter as saying.

The participants of the working subgroup on security issues of the Contact Group on settling the crisis in Donbas earlier planned to agree on the document envisaging the withdrawal of weapons under 100mm caliber until late June.

Neutrality

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Post n°42

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Neutrality Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:23 pm

There we have it again. Bloomberg and Reuters report that Tsipras either already phoned Putin after the referendum or is going to do so later today. My suspicions about Putin being connected to Tsipras' move to hold a referendum are stronger now. I remember Tsipras excluded the possibility of ever holding a referendum just a few months back and then the sudden 180 after meeting Putin. These gentlemen are brewing something that will benefit them both because Merkel, Hollande, Dijselbloem and other people of the EU and the IMF are very pissed off with this move.

PapaDragon

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Post n°43

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

PapaDragon Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:21 pm

Content of the article is loaded with usual crap, but title and possible implications are beautiful Cool

Will we let Ukraine die?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-dangerous-neglect-of-ukraine/2015/07/05/37d08050-20cf-11e5-84d5-eb37ee8eaa61_story.html

Identical article but title of Business Insider version is even sweeter Razz

It's beginning to look like we'll let Ukraine fall apart

http://www.businessinsider.com/its-beginning-to-look-like-well-let-ukraine-fall-apart-2015-7

BKP

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Post n°44

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

BKP Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:53 pm

PapaDragon wrote:

Identical article but title of Business Insider version is even sweeter

It's beginning to look like we'll let Ukraine fall apart

http://www.businessinsider.com/its-beginning-to-look-like-well-let-ukraine-fall-apart-2015-7

I see business "insiders" get fed no less bullshit than the rest of us. That is some Alice in Wonderland type shit in that article. It's incredible how free they feel to lie with impunity.

Erk

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Post n°45

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Erk Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:10 pm

Neutrality wrote:There we have it again. Bloomberg and Reuters report that Tsipras either already phoned Putin after the referendum or is going to do so later today. My suspicions about Putin being connected to Tsipras' move to hold a referendum are stronger now. I remember Tsipras excluded the possibility of ever holding a referendum just a few months back and then the sudden 180 after meeting Putin. These gentlemen are brewing something that will benefit them both because Merkel, Hollande, Dijselbloem and other people of the EU and the IMF are very pissed off with this move.

Who cares, it's got nothing to do with Ukraine, start a Putin/Tsiparas conspiracy thread if you like, but spare us the derailing of this thread.

sepheronx

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Post n°46

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

sepheronx Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:19 pm

Rally in Odessa demands resignation of Saakashvili

JohninMK

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Post n°47

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

JohninMK Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:31 pm

sepheronx wrote:Rally in Odessa demands resignation of Saakashvili

Followed by

KIEV, July 6. /TASS/. The US will provide pay to the governor’s team in the Odessa region. Governor Mikhail Saakashvili said on Monday. "Given the anti-corruption pressure in Odessa, the US government has agreed to provide pay to Saakashvili’s new team," he wrote on his Facebook page after a meeting with US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. Saakashvili also noted that "US police officers from California will train the new police in Odessa".

Neutrality

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Post n°48

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

Neutrality Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:33 pm

Erk wrote:Who cares, it's got nothing to do with Ukraine, start a Putin/Tsiparas conspiracy thread if you like, but spare us the derailing of this thread.

Then you aren't exactly up to do date on the situation. America doesn't want Greece become best buddied with Russia.

PapaDragon

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Post n°49

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

PapaDragon Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:42 pm

JohninMK wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Rally in Odessa demands resignation of Saakashvili

Followed by

KIEV, July 6. /TASS/. The US will provide pay to the governor’s team in the Odessa region. Governor Mikhail Saakashvili said on Monday. "Given the anti-corruption pressure in Odessa, the US government has agreed to provide pay to Saakashvili’s new team," he wrote on his Facebook page after a meeting with US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. Saakashvili also noted that "US police officers from California will train the new police in Odessa".

California cops? So can we expect Odessans to start yelling ''Rodney King!!!" in the near future? lol1

JohninMK

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Post n°50

Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #17

JohninMK Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:54 pm

PapaDragon wrote:

JohninMK wrote:

sepheronx wrote:Rally in Odessa demands resignation of Saakashvili

Followed by

KIEV, July 6. /TASS/. The US will provide pay to the governor’s team in the Odessa region. Governor Mikhail Saakashvili said on Monday. "Given the anti-corruption pressure in Odessa, the US government has agreed to provide pay to Saakashvili’s new team," he wrote on his Facebook page after a meeting with US ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. Saakashvili also noted that "US police officers from California will train the new police in Odessa".

California cops? So can we expect Odessans to start yelling ''Rodney King!!!" in the near future?

No, but I understand (no photos yet) that the Harley Davidsons and Ray-Bans are in a container at the docks.

Russia Defence Forum

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