The Situation in the Ukraine. #15

AirCargo wrote:

Vann7 wrote:already saw reports last year for example of American Marine killed in mariupol by snipers when he went to the beach..

I'd like to see that source Vann, of course it will be Colonel Cassad, Fort Rus, Sputnik, Rt.....................

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

AirCargo wrote:

Vann7 wrote:already saw reports last year for example of American Marine killed in mariupol by snipers when he went to the beach..

I'd like to see that source Vann, of course it will be Colonel Cassad, Fort Rus, Sputnik, Rt.....................

Just a quick question, what are some of the sources that you would prefer?

AirCargo wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

whir wrote:

flamming_python wrote:There were no Western NGOs in the 80s USSR, yet that didn't prevent the state and its ideology along with it from collapsing in disgrace from the discontent of its own people, after at least 5 years of rising internal conflicts and a collapsing economy.

But there was something called radio that used to spread and foster all kinds of beautiful ideas like "you could have a much bigger salary with unemployment" or the mythical Marshal Plan 2.0.

Western propaganda would not have been convincing if the system of the USSR had worked better or at least had had better counter-propaganda.
Unfortunately, the Soviet Union was so focused on being a global superpower that it lost at home.

It was all the western propaganda from the radio's fault, the grocery stores were full.

NV via Google Translate wrote:На Майдане снесли палатки, милиция оцепила площадь - СМИ
On the Independence tore down the tents, the police cordoned off the area - the media
Today, 4:48

According to eyewitnesses, unknown demolished tents

Kiyani said that unknown to Balaklava demolished the tent set today, June 7, at the Independence Square.

According to eyewitnesses, at night unknown people tore down the tent in Balaclava, and then the police cordoned off the area, - the TSN .

At the moment there is no confirmation of this information from official sources.

As reported, on Sunday, June 7 at the Independence Square a hundred unknown activists erected tents and require the President Poroshenko public report for the year of the post. Continue reading.

AirCargo wrote:

ExBeobachter1987 wrote:

whir wrote:

flamming_python wrote:There were no Western NGOs in the 80s USSR, yet that didn't prevent the state and its ideology along with it from collapsing in disgrace from the discontent of its own people, after at least 5 years of rising internal conflicts and a collapsing economy.

But there was something called radio that used to spread and foster all kinds of beautiful ideas like "you could have a much bigger salary with unemployment" or the mythical Marshal Plan 2.0.

Western propaganda would not have been convincing if the system of the USSR had worked better or at least had had better counter-propaganda.
Unfortunately, the Soviet Union was so focused on being a global superpower that it lost at home.

It was all the western propaganda from the radio's fault, the grocery stores were full.

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:
It won't be Russian operatives that would go around knocking out NATO forces, rather it will be some local partisans. Speaking of which, how come the Russian Military hasn't trained or armed any partisan groups behind the front like in Kharkov or Odessa. Well trained groups can cause quite a bit of damage and chaos. As long as these partisan groups stick to knocking out legitimate targets of the Ukrop government, they could seriously undermine any efforts by the Junta to keep everyone in check (i.e. act as a catalyst for a new revolution).

Oh, and according to local reports, that fearsome Ukrainian dreadnought just happened to stumble over its own sea mine. There was no engagement by the NAF.

Whatever it happens , time IS on the side of RUssia. As soon Ukrainian start feeling hungry
and ukraine economy completely crash and no one with jobs other than Politicians ,army and NGOs.. all financed by the west.. Then Rebelions will start demanding Federalization and for Poroshenko to quit.

By that time Russia will have armed partisans in all Pro Russian Cities ,to fight Right sector if they use guns against civilians. and it will be a lawless state. I predict more millions refugees
moving to Russia.. and Russia can easily train the same Ukraine refugeess and provide them weapons to fight for their nation Independence and reverse the coup.

In a decade or more.. i Do see a big Possibility for Russia of taking back most Ukraine mainland Territories..from Odessa to borders to cities all the way to Kiev and belarus eastern borders. but this will heavily depend on Russia economy..How quickly they recover and become very strong influence again.  And i have the feeling that transnistria will join Russia in the near future. Specially if the attacked by Moldova .

I don't see Russia expanding anytime soon (Krim was a special case). If Russia wanted to, it could easily take back its old territories (i.e. Belarus) in the last few years, maybe even peacefully as well. However there is a reason Russia did not do this. The geopolitical game has changed significantly over the last century. One of the greatest measures of geopolitical power is expressed is not through all the lands you directly administer, but through the lands you indirectly control (a buffer or even a colony if you will). This thinking is mostly based on preventing invasions that were seen back in WWII.

In the end, I believe that Ukraine's de facto borders as they are now will remain, but the state will continue or worsen at being a mess. The greatest powder keg here is the patience and the will of the Ukraine people. Unfortunately, if they are anything like their Russian brothers to the East, we might have to wait for quite some time. They are being tempted and destroyed by the West as Russia was around two decades ago, Russia was an absolute mess back then but the Russian people patiently waited until better times came. How long are the Ukrainian people willing to wait for the allure of the West? Their wealth is being wasted and stolen at an incredible rate, they are fighting an unnecessary war, and their population is dwindling like never before. There must be a point in the near future where enough people will be fed up and then we will see a new Maidan. We might witness the creation of a true European Somalia. A country that has collapsed and unwanted by Russia or Europe. Ukraine will be left with hating Russia for taking back Crimea and denying the Donbass, and Ukraine will hate the West for their unkept promises. The country will be left with barely any wealth or security. Europe will be denied Ukraine, and more migrants will come to Russia which will empower Russia.

Regular wrote:Lets just wait when people from front will go to square to protest... With AK-74.

flamming_python wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:

Vann7 wrote:

Ivan the Colorado wrote:
It won't be Russian operatives that would go around knocking out NATO forces, rather it will be some local partisans. Speaking of which, how come the Russian Military hasn't trained or armed any partisan groups behind the front like in Kharkov or Odessa. Well trained groups can cause quite a bit of damage and chaos. As long as these partisan groups stick to knocking out legitimate targets of the Ukrop government, they could seriously undermine any efforts by the Junta to keep everyone in check (i.e. act as a catalyst for a new revolution).

Oh, and according to local reports, that fearsome Ukrainian dreadnought just happened to stumble over its own sea mine. There was no engagement by the NAF.

Whatever it happens , time IS on the side of RUssia. As soon Ukrainian start feeling hungry
and ukraine economy completely crash and no one with jobs other than Politicians ,army and NGOs.. all financed by the west.. Then Rebelions will start demanding Federalization and for Poroshenko to quit.

By that time Russia will have armed partisans in all Pro Russian Cities ,to fight Right sector if they use guns against civilians. and it will be a lawless state. I predict more millions refugees
moving to Russia.. and Russia can easily train the same Ukraine refugeess and provide them weapons to fight for their nation Independence and reverse the coup.

In a decade or more.. i Do see a big Possibility for Russia of taking back most Ukraine mainland Territories..from Odessa to borders to cities all the way to Kiev and belarus eastern borders. but this will heavily depend on Russia economy..How quickly they recover and become very strong influence again.  And i have the feeling that transnistria will join Russia in the near future. Specially if the attacked by Moldova .

I don't see Russia expanding anytime soon (Krim was a special case). If Russia wanted to, it could easily take back its old territories (i.e. Belarus) in the last few years, maybe even peacefully as well. However there is a reason Russia did not do this. The geopolitical game has changed significantly over the last century. One of the greatest measures of geopolitical power is expressed is not through all the lands you directly administer, but through the lands you indirectly control (a buffer or even a colony if you will). This thinking is mostly based on preventing invasions that were seen back in WWII.

In the end, I believe that Ukraine's de facto borders as they are now will remain, but the state will continue or worsen at being a mess. The greatest powder keg here is the patience and the will of the Ukraine people. Unfortunately, if they are anything like their Russian brothers to the East, we might have to wait for quite some time. They are being tempted and destroyed by the West as Russia was around two decades ago, Russia was an absolute mess back then but the Russian people patiently waited until better times came. How long are the Ukrainian people willing to wait for the allure of the West? Their wealth is being wasted and stolen at an incredible rate, they are fighting an unnecessary war, and their population is dwindling like never before. There must be a point in the near future where enough people will be fed up and then we will see a new Maidan. We might witness the creation of a true European Somalia. A country that has collapsed and unwanted by Russia or Europe. Ukraine will be left with hating Russia for taking back Crimea and denying the Donbass, and Ukraine will hate the West for their unkept promises. The country will be left with barely any wealth or security. Europe will be denied Ukraine, and more migrants will come to Russia which will empower Russia.

Not Russia's problem really.

Russia was tempted by the West but was never tempted to kill Ukrainians for that goal.
Ukrainians are willing to do anything it seems.

Ivan the Colorado wrote:
Maybe not Ukrainians, but there were events like the Chechen Wars. I personally think that Vladimir Vladimirovich was correct in saying that certain outside powers wanted Russia as fragmented as Yugoslavia.

Regular wrote:Even after degradation of social services I would say today life in Russia is better than it was in Soviet Union.
It's more dynamic and atleast there is no stagnation. You would hardly put new generation back into communism too.

higurashihougi wrote:

Regular wrote:Even after degradation of social services I would say today life in Russia is better than it was in Soviet Union.
It's more dynamic and atleast there is no stagnation. You would hardly put new generation back into communism too.

Heartful and mindful people keep Soviet memory in a high position but they do not want the old Soviet model to come back, either. After all the model of USSR had been gone wrong for many reason and became further and further from the vision of Marx and Lenin.

The 1991 event caused extreme chaos and a chance for pro-West 5th columnists to rampage in the SNG. But it also wipe out the military dictatorship created by the unholy duo of military general and corrupted Party officers, paved the way for technocrats/industrial leader to bounce back - given the case if there was a competent leader who could make full use of that way.

KoTeMoRe wrote:Ukraine's is in the gutter, but not because it wasn't Nationalist enough, but that its Nationalism was schizophrenic.

NV via Google Translate wrote:Кавказцы пытались вывезти из Украины флешку с данными о ВСУ
Caucasians were trying to take out of Ukraine with the data on the stick APU
Today, 13:58



The destination for the "tourists" had become one of the EU countries

Border guards Chop detachment in the area Big Bereznyi Department detained four illegal immigrants - people from the Caucasus, one of whom was carrying a flash card with the data on the units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

According to the State Border Service, the group, which moved to the Ukrainian-Slovak border, detained about 2:00 am.

During their detention, the two men tried to escape, but after warning shots up stopped trying.

Data on the APU on a flash drive may include restricted access information. Expert evaluation of the detected files will hold the competent authorities.

According to the offenders, all of them are citizens of Georgia. However, documents in possession they had. The destination for the "tourists" had become one of the EU countries.

Earlier, the SBU detained at the hot saboteur , trying to undermine the train with military equipment. Continue reading.

TheMedvedova wrote:Positions forces ATO under fire DNR - Ukraine

Grad MLRS firing LC - Ukraine

Служба безпеки України wrote:Thwarted another attempt to create a Russian intelligence feykovu "republic" in Mykolayiv

Russia continues to be the main organizer and sponsor of the armed conflict in the east of Ukraine. Moreover, he said Moscow was continuing to supply weapons and train the armed groups.

UNIAN via Google Translate wrote:За спробу створити в Миколаєві фейкову "республіку" затримано 52 людини
In an attempt to create Nikolaev feykovu "republic" detained 52 people
08.06.2015 | 15:26

Became known organizers of meetings, which planned to announce the creation feykovoyi anti-Ukrainian "republic" in the Mykolaiv region.

According to a source UNIAN Meeting organizers - coordinator of the "People's Council Bessarabia" Shaposhnikov and journalist "Details Mark" Vasilkevich. Reported that they were in Mykolayiv pizzeria xlpizza.

On suspicion of committing a crime under Part 2 of Article 110 of the Criminal Code (infringement of territorial integrity and inviolability of Ukraine) arrested 52 people.

Vasilkevich may declare a suspect under Art. 263 of the Criminal Code (illegal handling of weapons, ammunition or explosives). Sources say that during a search of his apartment F1 grenade was found with zeal.

As UNIAN reported earlier, the Security Service of Ukraine foiled an attempt to create a Russian special services in the Mykolaiv region feykovu anti-Ukrainian "republic". Psevdorespubliky ideologists were intended to demonstrate the alleged support in the southern region of the terrorist organizations "FSC" and "NPT" .

Feykova "republic" for their plan, was to create the necessary propaganda picture to Russian media - incite counter current Ukrainian authorities. It was planned that the creation of an illegal organization will be announced at the "meeting", but this prevented the SBU. Course fees must be controlled by Russian curators on-line. Continue reading.

Kyiv Post wrote:Finance ministry says talks with creditors on June 5 were unsuccessful
June 8, 2015, 1:26 p.m. | Ukraine — by Interfax-Ukraine

Ukraine's international creditors refused to change their proposal on the restructuring of Ukraine's debt, reads a statement issued by the Finance Ministry after a phone call with the creditors on June 5. Continue reading.

The Daily Beast wrote:Want to Get Really Mad About Ukraine? Watch Russian TV
06.08.155:18 AM ET Anna Nemtsova

The daily diet of the Kremlin’s ‘weaponized propaganda’ is not all lies—and it’s heating up Russians’ outrage over the war in Ukraine and the West’s role.

MOSCOW — A recent survey by Russia’s Public Opinion Research Center found that 60 percent of the Russian population gets its news from television and 75 percent trust what they see there.

Well, here’s what they’ve been watching.

Last Thursday every news program on Russian television aired video of wounded, bleeding women and men on stretchers at Donetsk hospital, and images of a destroyed city market set on fire by artillery during one of the fiercest battles in Ukraine in months. The shelling of Donetsk region intensified, and Russians could see many ruined private homes under fire. News presenters blamed the Ukrainian military for creating over 50 “provocations” endangering the ceasefire along the entire front line in Eastern Ukraine. It blamed Kiev’s leadership for breaking the Minsk agreement from last February, and it blamed the West for backing Ukraine.

Thursday’s news reports covered clashes the day before in the fight for control over a town called Maryinka (also, Marinka), right outside the regional capital of Donetsk, that involved heavy artillery and tanks. Over 20 people were killed and at least 100 were injured in separatist-held towns, the reports said. The Ukrainian military deliberately chose sunset to shell the thickly populated town of Horlivka, Channel-5 reported. Vesti, a news program on the popular Russia-24 channel, quoted separatist Deputy Defense Minister Eduard Basurin insisting that Kiev plotted the attack on purpose. He claimed the Ukrainian military wanted to have a small victory to show before Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko addressed the Rada, or parliament. But “Kiev failed,” said Basurin. And the majority of Russians believed it.

Day after day, Russian television viewers discuss horror stories from Ukraine. After a short and largely quiet break, clashes have intensified on the front lines, and as they’ve grown increasingly violent, outrage against Ukraine’s military and its leadership have been heated up by the anti-Kiev and anti-West news coverage. Continue reading.

International Business Times wrote:Vladimir Putin Urges Donetsk And Luhansk To Remain Part Of Ukraine
By Christopher Harress June 06 2015 10:00 PM EDT

Russian President Vladimir Putin is pushing a proposal that would see the self-proclaimed republics of Luhansk and Donetsk remain under Ukrainian control. Leaders in the disputed regions have said they might be open to the idea provided conditions of the failing ceasefire are met by Ukraine.

"This is a fundamental issue. I think this position should be viewed as a sound precondition for the start of substantial negotiations," said Putin, according to a transcript of the interview published by Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera and released by the Kremlin.

While EU and NATO officials suspect the Russian military is helping the rebels in their fight against Ukrainian troops in East Ukraine, Putin has resisted calls to annex both regions as he did with Crimea in March 2014. The cost of rebuilding the region and assimilating the millions of civilians living there, it is thought, is the reason it will not happen. In addition, Russia's economy has suffered badly since EU-led sanctions were put in place against it last year.

Europe would also like to see the sanctions lifted as Russia is considered one of its biggest trade partners, but that can only happen if Russia withdraws its troops and weaponry from Ukraine, and meets the full conditions of the Minsk II agreement that was signed in February. Putin has also expressed a desire to normalize ties between Europe and Russia, as well as seeing an end to fighting in the region.

"The key aspect of the political settlement was to create conditions for this joint work, but it was essential to stop the hostilities, to pull back heavy weaponry. On the whole, this has been done. Unfortunately, there is still shooting occasionally and there are casualties, but there are no large‑scale hostilities. The sides have been separated. It is time to begin implementing the Minsk agreements," he said.

However, the group charged with overseeing the conflict, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, said earlier this week it witnessed some of the most intense fighting since the ceasefire agreement was signed. The Ukrainian military reported 14 soldiers were killed and dozens injured in battles near the de facto rebel capital of Donetsk.

Fighting continued Saturday with the Ukrainian military reporting increased use of Grad rockets, which are supposed to be banned under the ceasefire agreement. Continue reading.

Marcus Macerinus wrote:Gorlovka 8 June 2015 shelling the area of the mine on June 7

higurashihougi wrote:I would like to say WTF is that s**t ?

http://www.unian.info/war/1086582-defense-minister-militants-have-enough-troops-arms-for-the-average-european-country.html

Russian-backed militant forces in the east of Ukraine now have the same quantity of troops and weapons as the average European country, Ukrainian Defense Minister Stepan Poltorak said in Kyiv on Monday at a meeting of the NATO-Ukraine Inter-Parliamentary Council, according to an UNIAN correspondent.

OK, so what is the definition of an "average European country" ? That "average" is as big as 50% of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts ? "average" means small countries like Denmark, Belgium, Holland ?

Russia continues to be the main organizer and sponsor of the armed conflict in the east of Ukraine. Moreover, he said Moscow was continuing to supply weapons and train the armed groups.

Yeah yeah yeah, because of Russia, Russia again, everything is because of Russia, Porkie get a stomachache or a headache is also because of Russia...