The Situation in the Ukraine. #13

PapaDragon wrote:So economy is just number on a computer but OMG Russia will be sanctioned!!! Nice way to discredit yourself...  

Why should anyone, least of all NAF, "restore" democracy in Ukraine? Ukraine never had democracy, never needed it or really wanted it and soon there will not be Ukraine anymore.
Whole country in it's current form and size is just a liability for Russia.  

Nobody wants to bother with maidan 2.0 because whole country will soon implode and decompose like a carcass that it is.  

What purpose does the Ukraine serve anymore? Enlighten me...

Economy used to be physical, material wealth, land, resources, water, production. These days, economy is not physical, a digital number in a computer. Without gold standard, money became unlimited. The US economy can be in the trillions, quadrillions, quantillions, doesn't matter. Numbers are infinite.

As you know, sanction on Russia is meaningless.

You are wrong Ukraine was not a democracy. No country is perfectly democratic. At least Yanukovych didn't ban Tymoshenko's party, didn't murder political opposition like putsch does.

Flagship Victory wrote:
Economy used to be physical, material wealth, land, resources, water, production. These days, economy is not physical, a digital number in a computer. Without gold standard, money became unlimited. The US economy can be in the trillions, quadrillions, quantillions, doesn't matter. Numbers are infinite.

As you know, sanction on Russia is meaningless.

What are you smoking man...

Putsch says captured 2 ex Russian special forces treated in Kiev hospital.

http://news.yahoo.com/russians-troops-captured-ukraine-way-capital-082511144.html

Neutrality wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:
Economy used to be physical, material wealth, land, resources, water, production. These days, economy is not physical, a digital number in a computer. Without gold standard, money became unlimited. The US economy can be in the trillions, quadrillions, quantillions, doesn't matter. Numbers are infinite.

As you know, sanction on Russia is meaningless.

What are you smoking man...

You know I'm right. Economy is fake these days. The US oligarchs made economy this way. They abolished gold standard. Then they abolshed paper and metal money. Now economy is nothing but a digital number in a computer. Meaningless number.

Flagship Victory wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:So economy is just number on a computer but OMG Russia will be sanctioned!!! Nice way to discredit yourself...  

Why should anyone, least of all NAF, "restore" democracy in Ukraine? Ukraine never had democracy, never needed it or really wanted it and soon there will not be Ukraine anymore.
Whole country in it's current form and size is just a liability for Russia.  

Nobody wants to bother with maidan 2.0 because whole country will soon implode and decompose like a carcass that it is.  

What purpose does the Ukraine serve anymore? Enlighten me...

Economy used to be physical, material wealth, land, resources, water, production. These days, economy is not physical, a digital number in a computer. Without gold standard, money became unlimited. The US economy can be in the trillions, quadrillions, quantillions, doesn't matter. Numbers are infinite.

As you know, sanction on Russia is meaningless.

You are wrong Ukraine was not a democracy. No country is perfectly democratic. At least Yanukovych didn't ban Tymoshenko's party, didn't murder political opposition like putsch does.

The economy has been around longer than computers. You do not measure an economy in terms of money, you measure the production of goods and services. You are getting confused with GDP which measures the flow of money, not the real economy.

Erk wrote:The economy has been around longer than computers. You do not measure an economy in terms of money, you measure the production of goods and services. You are getting confused with GDP which measures the flow of money, not the real economy.

Economy is not tied to production of goods and services. It was. Not anymore. Now economy is nothing but an arbitrarily big digital number in a computer set by the IMF. Money supply is not physical. It is released by IMF into the country's GDP. Production of goods and services is only a small part of economy. The rest is all debt which is a digital number in a computer does not physically exist.

Flagship Victory wrote:

whir wrote:

TV Channel OPLOT TV wrote:18/05/2015. heavy battle in Donetsk, heavy artillery sounds.

And Putin does not say a word. Does Putin expect the US to lift sanctions by not saying a word? Why is NAF not allowed to return fire using 152 mm artillery to destroy putsch artillery positions?

Monarchist is that u?

Neutrality wrote:If the Ukrainians don't release them like the Russians are asking, next time there's a cauldron, they'll be all wiped out. No more mercy.

Wrong. The NAF will again release all the prisoners without demands. They want to be noble and pragmatic.

Flagship Victory wrote:

whir wrote:

TV Channel OPLOT TV wrote:18/05/2015. heavy battle in Donetsk, heavy artillery sounds.

And Putin does not say a word. Does Putin expect the US to lift sanctions by not saying a word? Why is NAF not allowed to return fire using 152 mm artillery to destroy putsch artillery positions?

Because Russia fears that sanctions will be increased.

PapaDragon wrote:

Flagship Victory wrote:......................................

I said it before, I'll say it again. Economy is nothing but a digital number in a computer. It is not physical. You can't touch it. The US send key can send a quantillion USD to putsch. It has nothing to do with the laws of physics.

Putin will not win anything with Minsk 2. People will die at the hands of putsch. Russia will be sanctioned for not giving Crimea to Ukraine. NAF has to go on the offensive to restore democracy in Ukraine. There will not be a Maidan 2 unless FSB starts it like how CIA started Maidan.

So economy is just number on a computer but OMG Russia will be sanctioned!!! Nice way to discredit yourself...  

Why should anyone, least of all NAF, "restore" democracy in Ukraine? Ukraine never had democracy, never needed it or really wanted it and soon there will not be Ukraine anymore.
Whole country in it's current form and size is just a liability for Russia.  

Nobody wants to bother with maidan 2.0 because whole country will soon implode and decompose like a carcass that it is.  

What purpose does the Ukraine serve anymore? Enlighten me...

Wishful thinking. Ukraine is not going anywhere as long as Kiev has the monopoly for violence. You say that the other regions will start to rebel as the economy gets worse. Rebel with what? They have no weapons. Are they going to start protesting? They will be butchered if they do.

In retrospect it would have been better if Strelkov never went to Donbass.

People of Donbass would have to live under the Kiev regime, but at least they would not be shelled each and every day. Their homes would not be wrecked. Their children would not be killed. Their economy would not be as ruins as it is now.

The current situation was the worst outcome for them. The best outcome would have been the Crimea situation where Russia directly intervenes. The second best outcome would have been no rebellion and living under a fascist regime. The worst outcome is an uneven war where the NAF cannot defeat the enemy and stop it from terrorizing their land and their people.

This war will drag on for years in current positions. In the summer of 2016 we will still see Donbass being shelled and we will still be wondering whether Putin will finally act. And the same in the summer of 2017, and in the summer of 2018... Donbass will be completely ruined and mostly depopulated once this horror show is finally over.

PapaDragon wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:

PapaDragon wrote:...............................

Nobody wants to bother with maidan 2.0 because whole country will soon implode and decompose like a carcass that it is.  

What purpose does the Ukraine serve anymore? Enlighten me...

Wishful thinking. Ukraine is not going anywhere as long as Kiev has the monopoly for violence. You say that the other regions will start to rebel as the economy gets worse. Rebel with what? They have no weapons. Are they going to start protesting? They will be butchered if they do.

I did not say "rebel". Corpses do not rebel. I said "decompose". Two very different terms.

Somalia ring a bell?

Ukraine will not become a "corpse". It will be a poor state with a poor economy, but with enough coherence to keep its regions (with brute force if needed). And they have western support, both political and economic. And they sadly have Russian support as well since Russia continues to provide them with gas, coal and nuclear fuel.

Ukraine is not going anywhere as long as it is supported by the West and Russia.

Thats not monarchist, he is here already. This is a russian jitter from what i see so far.

Personally I hate the fact that ukraine is allowed to carry out warcrimes against its own population on a daily basis and the man who promised to defend them says nothing. Nothing would please me more than seeing the whole ukrainian army being completely routed and destroyed, made completely incapable of firing another shot, but thats not the case.

i dont blame him for not officially invading (even though i would approve of it) as he has 150 million russians to look after, he is doing the right thing by supporting novorossia to a certain extent but in my opinion he doesnt go far enough. The bit that really irks me is how he lets kiev shit on him and all of russia, yet still trades with them and gives them all the discounts. All trade should have been completely stopped with ukraine, including gas and oil, christ, the same oil he sells them is probably used to tow the artillery thats pounding donetsk. Is that really acceptable? Would stalin have been selling oil to the nazis as the germans were razing soviet cities to the ground? Maybe mentioning stalin and the nazis is too dramatic? Dont forget putin himself compared the situation in donbass to the siege of leningrad.

The frustrating thing is that putin has this comic book villain reputation here in the west, he is seen as the aggressor, the bully, the invader, yet he doesnt do half of what his reputation suggests but that stigma will never change. So he might as well live up to it and actually play a bit more hardball.

He may be doing the right thing, the proof is in the pudding, we should remember ukraine will still be around once these fuckwits have gone, and russia needs a neighbour thats relatively in one piece that she can do business with.  Continuing to trade with them, despite the apparent hypocrisy may well be the best option long term, who knows?

As others have said, war is a dirty game and nobody is clean. Can you imagine if we had forums during ww2?

How would we be discussing the allied destruction of dresden? Or how churchill ordered the destruction of the french fleet resulting in the deaths of hundreds of french sailors who were on our side? i dread to think what we would be thinking.

The capture and mistreatment of the 2 ex Russian special forces is a mistake on Putin's part. Putin hastily signs off on Minsk 2 and then pretends everything is fine and dandy and does nothing to enforce Minsk 2. ATO continues. War continues. People continue to die. Putin blocks out everything la la la thinks nothing bad will happen. Well, guess what, now that 2 ex Russian special forces captured, Putin is left without a plan B, C, D or E.

Rodinazombie wrote:

The frustrating thing is that putin has this comic book villain reputation here in the west, he is seen as the aggressor, the bully, the invader, yet he doesnt do half of what his reputation suggests but that stigma will never change. So he might as well live up to it and actually play a bit more hardball.

It is both frustrating and funny.

Here in Finland Putin is regarded as some kind of a personification of evil. He is a truly hated man in the media and even among the common people. The hate sometimes goes to ridiculous levels. I know a family that has a kid in a school. His teacher said in front of the class that Putin should be assassinated and the world would be a better place. This public teacher said this to 10 year old kids!

For all the hate Putin gets he is quite soft in his foreign policy. Soft and timid. Putin is clearly not the worst option as a leader for Russia for the West.

But for some reason the West really seems to hate him. Wonder why? Why is he so hated? Is there something about his personality that makes him an easy target? Or is he hated because the West sees him as a good leader for Russia (when they would like to see someone who brings Russia down with him)?

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:

The frustrating thing is that putin has this comic book villain reputation here in the west, he is seen as the aggressor, the bully, the invader, yet he doesnt do half of what his reputation suggests but that stigma will never change. So he might as well live up to it and actually play a bit more hardball.

It is both frustrating and funny.

Here in Finland Putin is regarded as some kind of a personification of evil. He is a truly hated man in the media and even among the common people. The hate sometimes goes to ridiculous levels. I know a family that has a kid in a school. His teacher said in front of the class that Putin should be assassinated and the world would be a better place. This public teacher said this to 10 year old kids!

For all the hate Putin gets he is quite soft in his foreign policy. Soft and timid. Putin is clearly not the worst option as a leader for Russia for the West.

But for some reason the West really seems to hate him. Wonder why? Why is he so hated? Is there something about his personality that makes him an easy target? Or is he hated because the West sees him as a good leader for Russia (when they would like to see someone who brings Russia down with him)?

The west does not hate Putin. The west hates Russia. Russia is the world's biggest country. The western states are envious of Russia. So they want to break up Russia into tiny little pieces like what happened to Yugoslavia.

You are right Putin is soft and timid. Does Putin ask for the Mistral ships? No. Does Putin sue France? No. Does Putin want compensation? No. Does Putin even want what Russia payed for the Mistrals back? No. Putin asks for money that is less than what Russia payed.

[quote="PapaDragon"]

Karl Haushofer wrote:....................................
I'll go grab a popcorn and enjoy the show, 'cause that sh*t always works out soooo well.... *cough*Libya,Iraq,Afghanistan,Yemen *cough*.........

You forget something. It is a western interest that Ukraine remains a unitary state. The West lacked a similar interest in these countries (where they just went to spread chaos and take resources).

Ukraine needs to be a strong counterbalance for Russia. An anti-Russia. It will make Russia's westward expansion impossible in the foreseeable future. All those countries who hate (and fear) Russia are supporting Ukraine: Poland, Baltic states, Romania, Sweden etc. And of course the United States that has a strong interest in preventing Russia's westward expansion.

And i'm not talking about military invasion, but economic and policial expansion. With a friendly Ukraine Russia could very well reach Hungary (with its current pro-Russian government), Serbia, Macedonia and Greece, and form some kind of an economic alliance with these nations. Ukraine borders Hungary, Hungary borders Serbia , Serbia borders Macedonia, and Macedonia borders Greece. All of these countries are more or less pro-Russian. In that scenario Turkey and Romania would be landlocked from Europe.

With a hostile Ukraine the West can easily prevent this scenario and instead place military bases to Kharkov and eventually to Donbass as well, close to Russia's heartland, and landlock Russia from Europe. Ukraine is so important that it will not be allowed to fail as a country.

Flagship Victory wrote:

Karl Haushofer wrote:

Rodinazombie wrote:

The frustrating thing is that putin has this comic book villain reputation here in the west, he is seen as the aggressor, the bully, the invader, yet he doesnt do half of what his reputation suggests but that stigma will never change. So he might as well live up to it and actually play a bit more hardball.

It is both frustrating and funny.

Here in Finland Putin is regarded as some kind of a personification of evil. He is a truly hated man in the media and even among the common people. The hate sometimes goes to ridiculous levels. I know a family that has a kid in a school. His teacher said in front of the class that Putin should be assassinated and the world would be a better place. This public teacher said this to 10 year old kids!

For all the hate Putin gets he is quite soft in his foreign policy. Soft and timid. Putin is clearly not the worst option as a leader for Russia for the West.

But for some reason the West really seems to hate him. Wonder why? Why is he so hated? Is there something about his personality that makes him an easy target? Or is he hated because the West sees him as a good leader for Russia (when they would like to see someone who brings Russia down with him)?

The west does not hate Putin. The west hates Russia. Russia is the world's biggest country. The western states are envious of Russia. So they want to break up Russia into tiny little pieces like what happened to Yugoslavia.

I somewhat agree, but there is something about in Putin's person that generates extra hatred. Medvedev did not get this much hatred even if his foreign policy was almost similar to Putin's. Maybe it is because the West never treated Medvedev as the true leader of Russia, because Putin was always there.

Anyone have any idea when these two resigned from special forces? They look like to be in their 20s or early 30s and one of them is even a sergeant, so if they did resign, they must have resigned very recently.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-455-crimean-tatars-mark-71st-anniversary-of-stalins-deportation/

But, maybe this is the plan. To make putsch make the first move, launch offensive. Maybe these two allowed to be captured, then Russia withdraws troops from Donbas. Putsch thinks now is the best time to attack, goes for it, then boom, Russia militarily intervenes and saves the day. One can always hope.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-live-day-455-crimean-tatars-mark-71st-anniversary-of-stalins-deportation/

PapaDragon wrote:Monarchist, it THAT you?  

I think they're all Monarchist, all these accounts

The more they hate Putin - the more I support him

The Western oligarchial elite is the personification of evil for me, so whoever they hate must be doing something right.