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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

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    sepheronx
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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:56 pm

    It is bloody pathetic that Russia is not protecting its borders.  They got owned by Western countries by simply allowing incursions into Russian territory, bombing Russian territory and as well, their own investigators being shot at.  

    Never seen anything so stupid in my life.  I seriously hope that someone with a more harder stance on this gets rid of Putin.  Because no securing your borders and allowing this to happen is a massive security issue to Russia and such acts, can be viewed as cowardice and in the end, other countries may see this and use it to their advantage.

    Why are they so reluctant to even shoot down an aircraft or drop a bomb on the artillery position?  Russia's image in the west is already damaged beyond repair.  So they really do have nothing to lose.  Sanctions are going to hit anyway and Oligarches with their money will flee regardless.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:07 pm

    Regular wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    "And helicopters are toast if there is decent AD in work."

    They're far from toast if used correctly. Drones and attack choppas also make a very nice combo.

    But drones and helicopters would be flying straight into foreign territory where there could be decent AD network.. You don't attack artillery positions without working on SEAD. But still MANPAD teams can be intact. I would rather counter artillery with artillery than over sophisticate things. Not sure about Russian precision strike capability, that can be used too.

    Didn't I wrote "if used correctly"?

    That is, IMO, you'd need a good reconaissance to see if the PARTICULAR areas (valleys) are not bristling with AD. In that case heli becomes a pretty survivable system, because of it's low flight ability.


    -----------------------------
    sepheronx wrote:It is bloody pathetic that Russia is not protecting its borders. They got owned by Western countries by simply allowing incursions into Russian territory, bombing Russian territory and as well, their own investigators being shot at.

    Never seen anything so stupid in my life. I seriously hope that someone with a more harder stance on this gets rid of Putin. Because no securing your borders and allowing this to happen is a massive security issue to Russia and such acts, can be viewed as cowardice and in the end, other countries may see this and use it to their advantage.

    Why are they so reluctant to even shoot down an aircraft or drop a bomb on the artillery position? Russia's image in the west is already damaged beyond repair. So they really do have nothing to lose. Sanctions are going to hit anyway and Oligarches with their money will flee regardless.

    Maybe russia thinks that rebels can win on their own?  Smile 

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Firebird on Sun Jul 06, 2014 5:24 pm

    Russia doesn't have to build up a dossier, and show it the NATO crap court that is the European Council.

    The Ukraine is a backward shithole. Most Ukrainians dont back the atrocities Willy Wanker is committing.
    Russia should deal with the S East. And the DPR should attack Lvov etc. A few bridges blown up in Kiev, and that economy is really on its knees.

    This hatred isnt gonna go away. Soft power was tried for over 2 decades. Guess what? The hohols from Lvov dominate the Centre. And the East and the South say its time to split. Democracy is finished.
    Exert force to SAVE lives. Otherwise it will only be Shite Sector force being used.

    And finally, sanctions are just a weapon that will be used whenever Russia's enemies fancy it.
    What were the sanctions for installing the junta or framing Berkut? If America isnt threatening/doing sanctions, then Russia is seriously fucking up.

    It really is crunch time for Putin. I wonder how Shoigu, Lavrov and Medvedev stand up as possible short term presidents?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Strizh on Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:06 pm

    sepheronx wrote:It is bloody pathetic that Russia is not protecting its borders.  They got owned by Western countries by simply allowing incursions into Russian territory, bombing Russian territory and as well, their own investigators being shot at.  

    Never seen anything so stupid in my life.  I seriously hope that someone with a more harder stance on this gets rid of Putin.  Because no securing your borders and allowing this to happen is a massive security issue to Russia and such acts, can be viewed as cowardice and in the end, other countries may see this and use it to their advantage.

    Why are they so reluctant to even shoot down an aircraft or drop a bomb on the artillery position?  Russia's image in the west is already damaged beyond repair.  So they really do have nothing to lose.  Sanctions are going to hit anyway and Oligarches with their money will flee regardless.

    I am 100% with you! It's a shame that Russia isn't doing anything!
    IT'S OVER there won't be any negotiations, this will go on for weeks and months but alone Novorussia won't survive!
    They could AT least supply them with weapons.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Regular on Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:56 pm

    They have plenty of weapons. If they said they took 90 percent of them and left 10 there.


    What they don't have is people willing to fight.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:23 pm

    The piece of pig-excrement Poroshenko and his fake truces, I knew he wasn't serious...this is the 3rd fake truce that he called for. Time to demand that if Poroshenko doesn't respect that peaceful resolution that they were just apart of than it's in order for Russia to establish a no-fly zone.


    Ukraine army assaults Lugansk: Airstrikes on suburbs, shelling of residential areas



    Kiev's artillery attacked the city of Lugansk in eastern Ukraine on Sunday, witnesses and militia of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Lugansk (LNR) said. Ukrainian forces also attacked the city’s suburbs from the air.

    "Ukrainian aviation launched missile strikes at Aleksandrovka, the Lugansk suburb. Ukrainian airplanes are in the skies above Lugansk. A siren is on," the press service of the Donetsk People's Republic wrote on Twitter.

    After 8 p.m. Moscow time, the confrontation between the self-defense and Ukrainian forces intensified in the suburbs of Lugansk, RIA Novosti reported.

    The agency said that a heavy aircraft could be heard flying above Lugansk, after which a siren went off.

    In general, in the evening hours the situation within the city was calm. Earlier in the day Lugansk mayor addressed its citizens and asked them not to leave their homes.

    One civilian was reportedly killed in the morning attacks, four more people injured.

    Later in the day, following the air strikes, an air raid alert was heard in Lugansk, Itar-Tass news agency reported.

    The attack happened the same day Kiev said it would not bombard armed groups in Lugansk and Donetsk from the air. "The tactics of the Ukrainian Army, the National Guard and the Border Service are such that massive bombardment of residential areas is excluded," Andrey Lysenko, spokesman of the Ukrainian National Security and Defense Council said on Sunday.

    Air strikes and heavy artillery will target only convoys outside cities, he added.

    "Several buildings are burning in the city, some people have been injured, there are a lot of ambulances in the streets,” militia representatives told Itar-Tass on Sunday, adding that locals rushed to bomb shelters. Witnesses say the battery factory was hit, which is close to a bus terminal.

    Grad rocket launchers may have been used in the attack, the sources from the Lugansk People’s Republic said.





    Ukrainian forces confirmed the shelling of the areas near the Lugansk railway and bus stations on Sunday afternoon, but blamed it on the opposing self-defense forces.

    "I presume the fire was really intense as it reached the city center from the outskirts. I heard at least five or six explosions," Anton Bukhalo, a journalist from Lugansk, told RT. He added that people were trying to leave the city.

    A RIA-Novosti journalist also reported the sound of artillery and gunfire in Lugansk on Sunday.



    Ukrainian forces hit a building in the city center and "huge black smoke" was seen in the area, an eyewitness from Lugansk told RT via Skype. He added that a warehouse was burning.

    "I can often hear explosions or shooting. I can hear it every five to ten minutes," said the man, who is currently in the eastern part of Lugansk.

    Donetsk militia confirm leaving stronghold cities of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk

    Several explosions were reportedly heard in the Lugansk airport area, and the movement of military equipment was observed in the town of Schastie, near Lugansk.

    The previous night mortar shelling took place near the Lugansk airport, but there are no further reports of casualties so far.

    On Saturday, the health minister of the Lugansk People’s Republic said at least 80 people had been treated in Lugansk hospitals after a day of bombing and gunfire from Ukrainian forces. He said 56 of the injured were civilians.

    On Sunday in Lugansk city center, people were collecting signatures for an appeal to the UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. Locals want to ask the UN to stop Kiev's aggression towards civilians, they said.



    http://rt.com/news/170772-ukraine-residential-shelling-lugansk/


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:14 pm

    I don't really understand Novorussian leaders. They are in war, their cities are under heavy fire, enemy kill civilians and want to make genocide on them and they still didn't mobilize reservists in army? What are they waiting? The fall of Donetsk and Lugansk? Than it will be too late. They have to mobilize soldiers and Russia have to supply weapons from ex-ukrainian stocks in Crimea and from their old soviet stocks. There is no other solution. If they want to survive, they have to mobilize larger army than Ukrainian. First they have to mobilize 4 infantry divisions and than more specialized units. You will never get enough volunteers. In such situation you have to go over volunteering and mobilize reservists to defend your own homes and families. This is only way to go over fear and passiveness.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:20 pm

    sepheronx wrote:It is bloody pathetic that Russia is not protecting its borders.  They got owned by Western countries by simply allowing incursions into Russian territory, bombing Russian territory and as well, their own investigators being shot at.  

    Never seen anything so stupid in my life.  I seriously hope that someone with a more harder stance on this gets rid of Putin.  Because no securing your borders and allowing this to happen is a massive security issue to Russia and such acts, can be viewed as cowardice and in the end, other countries may see this and use it to their advantage.

    Why are they so reluctant to even shoot down an aircraft or drop a bomb on the artillery position?  Russia's image in the west is already damaged beyond repair.  So they really do have nothing to lose.  Sanctions are going to hit anyway and Oligarches with their money will flee regardless.

    Because international politics are more complicated than that.


    Russia just shat all over Ukraine's border in the Crimea. Blasting anything Ukranian that comes close to the Russian border is going to make Russia look even worse. And whats the point? Nobody is looking at this and saying "Oh, look how weak Russia is, we will violate their borders next!".

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 06, 2014 9:44 pm

    They don't have to say it in order to do it.  And Ukraine is doing it so far.  Look at the article I posted from Itar.  If you truly care about your former country, then you know that protecting its borders are vital to its security.  You're media (US) has bomblasted Russia none stop to the point that there is really no return from this.  In the end, Russia's image has been forever 'damaged' by western media (don't you dare lie they don't do that TR1, you are smarter than that).  So really, what matters is not its image from afar as it is already tarnished, but its security.

    People like you make international politics complicated. It really is not, trust me. Russia can do it as China has been doing it forever. Place troops at Russian borders and do not move. Let Ukrainians screw up by bombing the area and they will pay the price. It has happened between India and Pakistan for years, India and China, China and Vietnam, etc etc. Point is, screw the west and their hypocritical BS.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  medo on Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:54 pm

    sepheronx wrote:They don't have to say it in order to do it.  And Ukraine is doing it so far.  Look at the article I posted from Itar.  If you truly care about your former country, then you know that protecting its borders are vital to its security.  You're media (US) has bomblasted Russia none stop to the point that there is really no return from this.  In the end, Russia's image has been forever 'damaged' by western media (don't you dare lie they don't do that TR1, you are smarter than that).  So really, what matters is not its image from afar as it is already tarnished, but its security.

    People like you make international politics complicated.  It really is not, trust me.  Russia can do it as China has been doing it forever.  Place troops at Russian borders and do not move.  Let Ukrainians screw up by bombing the area and they will pay the price.  It has happened between India and Pakistan for years, India and China, China and Vietnam, etc etc.  Point is, screw the west and their hypocritical BS.

    Agree. But the long term solution here is only one, that Novorussian forces themselves defeat Ukrainian army. This will bring Kiev to negotiations and will secure borders. So Russia have to deliver weapons and ammo to them and Novorussia have to mobilize their reservists. Whole Ukrainian army is there. They must not wait.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:57 pm

    sepheronx wrote:They don't have to say it in order to do it.  And Ukraine is doing it so far.  Look at the article I posted from Itar.  If you truly care about your former country, then you know that protecting its borders are vital to its security.  You're media (US) has bomblasted Russia none stop to the point that there is really no return from this.  In the end, Russia's image has been forever 'damaged' by western media (don't you dare lie they don't do that TR1, you are smarter than that).  So really, what matters is not its image from afar as it is already tarnished, but its security.

    People like you make international politics complicated.  It really is not, trust me.  Russia can do it as China has been doing it forever.  Place troops at Russian borders and do not move.  Let Ukrainians screw up by bombing the area and they will pay the price.  It has happened between India and Pakistan for years, India and China, China and Vietnam, etc etc.  Point is, screw the west and their hypocritical BS.

    Place Russian troops at the border, and suddenly people and trucks going from Russia-to-Ukraine and back is a lot harder to defend, now isn't it Wink .

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:04 pm

    The major problem have been always the lack of participation of people.. in rallies against the government in the east and the south. they could have stopped the war if they paralize all cities from Odessa to kharkiv. but so far Ukrainian that reject the government prefer to go to their works instead of helping counter the coup in their nation.

    here.. when womens from another country need to come to help novorossiya and take gun to defend them
    ,then you know something is really wrong with them.



    Its hard to image how a region like Donetsk and luganks with near 6 million citizens onlylllll 5,000 voluntaries show up to fight the first months and later increase up to 12,000. with many hundreds of foreigners help. if only 1% of citizens took arms to help they could have build an army of 60,000 soldiers.. So is pathetic . But another source of the problem was Russia and Putin's ineptitude of reactive policy.  The coup in 2014 was a continuation of the coup 10 years earlier . Putin should had a fucking clue ,that US was financing Rusophobia in Ukraine ,specially the so called Neonazis and that they were preparing for another major coup.  Russia should have been prepared to counter it .. but they did nothing.. left Yakunovych alone ,and now they only have the options to do something with their army and have another afgan war of 10 years or allow a genocide of civilians.  Sadly i do not see any other leader that could lead Russia.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:43 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  sepheronx on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:24 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:They don't have to say it in order to do it.  And Ukraine is doing it so far.  Look at the article I posted from Itar.  If you truly care about your former country, then you know that protecting its borders are vital to its security.  You're media (US) has bomblasted Russia none stop to the point that there is really no return from this.  In the end, Russia's image has been forever 'damaged' by western media (don't you dare lie they don't do that TR1, you are smarter than that).  So really, what matters is not its image from afar as it is already tarnished, but its security.

    People like you make international politics complicated.  It really is not, trust me.  Russia can do it as China has been doing it forever.  Place troops at Russian borders and do not move.  Let Ukrainians screw up by bombing the area and they will pay the price.  It has happened between India and Pakistan for years, India and China, China and Vietnam, etc etc.  Point is, screw the west and their hypocritical BS.

    Place Russian troops at the border, and suddenly people and trucks going from Russia-to-Ukraine and back is a lot harder to defend, now isn't it Wink .

    Yes, but this is at the point of no return really.  Russia under Putin made its bed and gotta lay in it.  They should be bringing as many refugees from Eastern Ukraine in, and then close that border tightly with more than enough troops to squash Ukraine and those Baltic nations if they tried anything.  Just keep a high presence at the border and nothing else.  Regular exercises and what not.  Just so that you mean business and that Russia's borders are not negotiable and not easy to cross.

    Vann7 wrote:The major problem have been always the lack of participation of people.. in rallies against the government in the east and the south. they could have stopped the war if they paralize all cities from Odessa to kharkiv. but so far Ukrainian that reject the government prefer to go to their works instead of helping counter the coup in their nation.

    Its hard to image how a region like Donetsk and luganks with near 6 million citizens onlylllll 5,000 voluntaries show up to fight the first months and later increase up to 12,000. with many hundreds of foreigners help. if only 1% of citizens took arms to help they could have build an army of 60,000 soldiers.. So is pathetic . But another source of the problem was Russia and Putin's ineptitude of reactive policy.  The coup in 2014 was a continuation of the coup 10 years earlier . Putin should had a fucking clue ,that US was financing Rusophobia in Ukraine ,specially the so called Neonazis and that they were preparing for another major coup.  Russia should have been prepared to counter it .. but they did nothing.. left Yakunovych alone ,and now they only have the options to do something with their army and have another afgan war of 10 years or allow a genocide of civilians.  Sadly i do not see any other leader that could lead Russia.

    And this is why I no longer like Putin. I used to think he was something more than this. But he isn't. People live in fantasy land thinking that he has a plan, but I am pretty sure he does not since he has been quiet and only state some things like "there will be an investigation" and "We do not condone the killing of civilians!". This shows that he has nothing and is sitting on his butt hoping that this will all end soon so he does not have to face much consequences. But of course, there are too many people who are falling for everything west and not realizing that Putin is also responsible for doing nothing in the very beginning. Like when those people in Odessa died or Ukraine kept on not paying their debt. They just kept moving back deadlines. In reality, a good leader would have cut the gas, closed the borders, and stopped trade until the country can sort its crap out. As for Russian's getting killed in Ukraine; Well, they are Ukrainian citizens as they were born in the Ukraine. And second of all, so many of them are not willing to fight and lay down and die, I guess they get what they deserve. Like Vann said, because of lack of support from Russia, I think many people are not willing to fight because they know they will die as Ukraine has impunity thanks to the west.


    Last edited by sepheronx on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:33 pm

    At the recent Russian-American forum there was a question brought up if we in July 2014 are in the same situation as July 1914, referring to the months ahead of WW1. If people recall that the British Empire (Anglo-Saxon atlanticist in general) created something similar to NATO in Europe to fight the Central Powers of WW1, and there were atrocities happening against the Slavic diaspora (Serbia) so essentially some of the same pieces that caused WW1 are here today. The question that remains is should any decision be taken so recklessly without taken in to account the possible consequences? That remains for the world to decide.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:02 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    And this is why I no longer like Putin.  I used to think he was something more than this.  But he isn't.  People live in fantasy land thinking that he has a plan, but I am pretty sure he does not since he has been quiet and only state some things like "there will be an investigation" and "We do not condone the killing of civilians!".  This shows that he has nothing and is sitting on his butt hoping that this will all end soon so he does not have to face much consequences.  But of course, there are too many people who are falling for everything west and not realizing that Putin is also responsible for doing nothing in the very beginning.  Like when those people in Odessa died or Ukraine kept on not paying their debt.  They just kept moving back deadlines.  In reality, a good leader would have cut the gas, closed the borders, and stopped trade until the country can sort its crap out.  As for Russian's getting killed in Ukraine;  Well, they are Ukrainian citizens as they were born in the Ukraine.  And second of all, so many of them are not willing to fight and lay down and die, I guess they get what they deserve.  Like Vann said, because of lack of support from Russia, I think many people are not willing to fight because they know they will die as Ukraine has impunity thanks to the west.


    Putin now only have 3 real options..
    1)try to push with EU real cease fire monitored by 30 OSCE monitors on the ground ,also allowing media to film and the evacuation of all civilians from the combat zones who wants to leave and or have no water or food,and propose that he will try to convince the rebels to drop their weapons..offering them to work and live in Russia..

    2)To send 6,000 special forces undercover armed to the teeth and help push back the kiev forces outside Novorossiya. 3,000 special forces to Donetsk and 3000 to Lugansk. Armed with Kornets-D , Igla-S with 152mm artillery and lazer precision munition. That will truly hurt . i dont think Ukraine have a chance to win against such weapons. it will be a field day for Donetsk forces in combination with the weapons they already have.

    3) Invade and stop the war ,regardless of consequences . If they invade ,i really hope Putin have a FUCKING Clue
    that NATO goals is an economic war and that facilities like Sochi could be potential targets also nuclear reactors in Russia. But also Crimea too could be a target,specially their best warships . but also Rostov and ST petersburg too. And that NATO could have supply Kiev with long range Ballistic and cruise missiles to attack Russia. At the moment Wiki says Ukraine have 90 OTR-21 Tochka missiles ,they could be dangerous for Russia.. if for example their defenses fail.

    - IF Russia invade however it could be to push away kiev forces and help evacuate civilians and leave
    - or invade with the plan to restore order and end the war. But if they plan to stay, Russia should have plans to invade many more cities like Odessa and Kharkiv and mariupol ,because others pro Russian cities will also rebel
    and ask Russia to help them.. specially Odessa. but also have plans to invade Kiev ,if Prosohenko and its parliament seek a full scale war against Russia and start attacking their cities at the advices of the white house.

    my greatest concern in Russia invading is.. 1)Sochi being destroyed  2)Crimea attacked 3)Ukraine possession of  (90) Tochka ballistic missiles used against Russian cities indiscriminately. 4) Rostov military bases attacked .  5) Russia nuclear reactors or Ukraine nuclear reactors. 6)NATO giving weapons to Ukraine to fight RUssia and Russia do nothing 7)Syria invaded and attacked by US and Allies in middle east in retaliation. I will not doubt for a second that if Russia manage to take control of all the south and east with their army ,the Neocons in the west will order the destruction of several nuclear reactors to force Russia have to deal with that. Is an economic war more than anything . the west well knows the Ukraine army will stand not a chance against Russia. so their tactics will be aimed to create a vietnam war in Ukraine and never allow Russia to leave.with also the aim to destroy Russia image as much as possible. So the first thing you will notice if RUssia invade is false flag attacks like there is no tomorrow. With thousands civilians killed and all blamed in Russia airforce.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Regular on Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:39 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:The piece of pig-excrement Poroshenko and his fake truces, I knew he wasn't serious...this is the 3rd fake truce that he called for. Time to demand that if Poroshenko doesn't respect that peaceful resolution that they were just apart of than it's in order for Russia to establish a no-fly zone.





    http://rt.com/news/170772-ukraine-residential-shelling-lugansk/

    Look at 0:58. ПУТИН and swastika.. Maybe it answers the question why army is not mobilised even in direst situation? 
    To be fair if they really wanted freedom they would mobilise even more fighters no problem. I'm starting to think that separatist movement doesn't have popular leaders. Tsarev is an idiot if You listen, Slovensk mayor is alcoholic who is still imprisoned (?) by his good friend. Strelkov is not politicians, he doesn't county. Rest of them don't look better than most of Ukrainian gov. 
    Maybe that's why people there are so passive. Before ATO they had no proper movement. 
    Here is the picture from my city in 1991. From the city that population was less than 500.000. And it's not just this place. Almost all main squares were filled with people. And it was all around the country even in cities who had 100k population.

    I think this Novorosian movement transcended to armed resistance faster and it was forced. 
    If eastern Ukraine would be under Kiev gov boot for longer, people would've less passive.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:20 am

    Regular wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:The piece of pig-excrement Poroshenko and his fake truces, I knew he wasn't serious...this is the 3rd fake truce that he called for. Time to demand that if Poroshenko doesn't respect that peaceful resolution that they were just apart of than it's in order for Russia to establish a no-fly zone.





    http://rt.com/news/170772-ukraine-residential-shelling-lugansk/

    Look at 0:58. ПУТИН and swastika.. Maybe it answers the question why army is not mobilised even in direst situation? 
    To be fair if they really wanted freedom they would mobilise even more fighters no problem. I'm starting to think that separatist movement doesn't have popular leaders. Tsarev is an idiot if You listen, Slovensk mayor is alcoholic who is still imprisoned (?) by his good friend. Strelkov is not politicians, he doesn't county. Rest of them don't look better than most of Ukrainian gov. 
    Maybe that's why people there are so passive. Before ATO they had no proper movement. 
    Here is the picture from my city in 1991. From the city that population was less than 500.000. And it's not just this place. Almost all main squares were filled with people. And it was all around the country even in cities who had 100k population.

    I think this Novorosian movement transcended to armed resistance faster and it was forced. 
    If eastern Ukraine would be under Kiev gov boot for longer, people would've less passive.

    I think all it would take is for the eastern Ukrainians to live under a PoS collapsing economy for a little while longer and they'll be just as eager to rebel as the Lithuanians were after living through 5 years of the collapsing Soviet economy from 1985-1990.

    People really do seem to underestimate just how key the economy is to winning - and keeping - hearts and minds. Look at Chechnya, it's becoming a more patriotic region literally with each year.
    No such thing as a patriot on an empty stomach. You try telling someone who's starving to be more patriotic.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:04 am

    So some of those destroyed vehicles were actually Ukranian BMDs- I guess they tore through a roadblock. Seems like 90% of the Seperatist manpower got out, and joined up with the rest @ Donetsk.

    In a built up area, with so much urban defensive structure, they might be able to put up a hell of a fight.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:07 am

    flamming_python wrote: Look at Chechnya, it's becoming a more patriotic region literally with each year.
    No such thing as a patriot on an empty stomach. You try telling someone who's starving to be more patriotic.

    Not patriotic to Russia: patriotic to Kadyrov and his boys. His brand of Islamic code + federal money= stability, relatively ordered security organs, and the means to spread the wealth around.
    The economy in Kavkaz is still largely depressed.

    In general, the correlation between discontent and economy is obvious. Nobody is going to rustle the pot when things are good.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:43 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    People really do seem to underestimate just how key the economy is to winning - and keeping - hearts and minds. Look at Chechnya, it's becoming a more patriotic region literally with each year.
    No such thing as a patriot on an empty stomach. You try telling someone who's starving to be more patriotic.

    Thats correct. well said.
    This is why im 100% confident Russia do not need to move a finger , from Ukraine cease to exist and disband in many parts ,once its economy collapse. And that Russia will be the biggest winner. Because Ukraine will collapse under the EU association and with a Pro NATO government.  And this is why i believe the US government and its kiev junta are trying to provoke Russia to invade. So that when the economy of Ukraine collapse and most people
    unemployed that the EU and US are not blamed for it.. and instead blamed in Russia for their invasion.  Wink 

    SO now you have the CIA minions from the Ukraine border totally desperate and directly shelling Russian Border..
    to provoke their invasion. This is why civilians are burned alive as they did in Odessa ,this is why you hear provocations from kiev , or praising of hitler... etc.  Is all made to provoke Russia to invade. Unfortunately however
    if Russia do nothing many pro Russian civilians will die or will end homeless ,with their properties stolen by kiev .
    This unless Russia manage to get UN or EU observers in Ukraine to protect human rights.





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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  arpakola on Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:23 am

    http://etoonda.livejournal.com/280362.html




    ============================


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:53 am


    what the second video says? the participation ok , if only they could maintain such participation in all cities from Odessa to Kharkiv but also many other cities ,all the way to kiev it will have been an enourmous pressure for kiev
    to end the war.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:49 am

    TR1 wrote:So some of those destroyed vehicles were actually Ukranian BMDs- I guess they tore through a roadblock. Seems like 90% of the Seperatist manpower got out, and joined up with the rest @ Donetsk.

    In a built up area, with so much urban defensive structure, they might be able to put up a hell of a fight.

    From the available material, I believe this is what happened:

    1. This blockpost at the outskirts of Slavyansk is Ukrainian.
    It was targeted by Strelkov's guys by his armored units to create a diversion.
    The diversion helped his trucks carrying the soldiers and families to flee the city by another route.
    Photo below is from the Ukrainian blockpost before the clash:



    2. the escape out of Slavyansk was mostly successful.
    But the diversionary attack had mixed results.
    The Ukrainian army lost some (maybe all) the BMDs blocking the road. But the anti-Kiev militants also lost a few BMDs and BMPs.
    Below picture is of the Ukrainian BMDs destroyed:

    Below photo is the ultimate proof that the destroyed BMDs were Ukrainian army (the vehicle number 740 is in both photos):


    3. There is one T-64 that is completely destroyed and another one that is disabled and in a ditch. It is not clear whether they are from Ukrainian or anti-Kiev forces.



    Last edited by TheArmenian on Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  TR1 on Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:53 am

    Seems like it. The T-64s are almost certainly from Seps.

    Funny, this is being trumpeted as some huge Ukrainian victory. Given the forces they have at their disposal, this shows that still, months into the fighting, the Ukrainian armed forces are a bunch of uncoordinated bums.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #6

    Post  Werewolf on Mon Jul 07, 2014 10:50 am

    TR1 wrote:Seems like it. The T-64s are almost certainly from Seps.

    Why do you think so?

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