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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

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    Morpheus Eberhardt
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat May 02, 2015 12:40 pm

    Neutrality wrote:Hey guys, decided to register on this forum as MP.net was closed and I just got banned from TheMess.net. Apparently having an unfriendly opinion towards Ukraine and its Western backers is a big no-no "behavior". That website is basically another giant circle jerk that was MP.net under people like "digrar" and his fellow cronies.

    Anyway, this website seems to have a pretty good Ukrainian discussion so I'll stick around if that's okay Wink

    welcome

    Neutrality,

    It's a tradition here for new members to make a thread in the "Member Introductions and Rules" sub-forum and introduce themselves.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Neutrality on Sat May 02, 2015 12:42 pm

    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:Hey guys, decided to register on this forum as MP.net was closed and I just got banned from TheMess.net. Apparently having an unfriendly opinion towards Ukraine and its Western backers is a big no-no "behavior". That website is basically another giant circle jerk that was MP.net under people like "digrar" and his fellow cronies.

    Anyway, this website seems to have a pretty good Ukrainian discussion so I'll stick around if that's okay Wink

    welcome

    Neutrality,

    It's a tradition here for new members to make a thread in the "Member Introductions and Rules" sub-forum and introduce themselves.

    Yeah just did Wink

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sat May 02, 2015 12:42 pm

    Neutrality wrote:
    Morpheus Eberhardt wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:Hey guys, decided to register on this forum as MP.net was closed and I just got banned from TheMess.net. Apparently having an unfriendly opinion towards Ukraine and its Western backers is a big no-no "behavior". That website is basically another giant circle jerk that was MP.net under people like "digrar" and his fellow cronies.

    Anyway, this website seems to have a pretty good Ukrainian discussion so I'll stick around if that's okay Wink

    welcome

    Neutrality,

    It's a tradition here for new members to make a thread in the "Member Introductions and Rules" sub-forum and introduce themselves.

    Yeah just did Wink

    Sorry for my confusion.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  whir on Sat May 02, 2015 1:20 pm

    nahnews via Google Translate wrote:Charlie Hebdo in Kiev: deep penetration in the style of «Je suis Ukrnafta"

    Paris, May 2.

    Soon Ukraine will begin to publish a version of the well-known French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. About this on his page on Facebook wrote one of the editorial staff Francois Anland . Charlie Hebdo
    "You would not believe - we will soon runs on Ukraine", - he writes. Continue Reading
    nahnews: Charlie Hebdo по-киевски: глубокое проникновение в стиле «Je suis Укрнафта»

    jan jankow wrote:





    @jasonsmith7080 wrote:We won't forget! In #Kharkov fountain in the color of blood in memory of those killed in the #Odessa Trade Union Bldg

    @KatasonovaMaria wrote:

    Tass wrote:Kiev forces’ mortar shelling wounds two local citizens near Donetsk
    World  May 02, 13:10 UTC+3
    Earlier on Saturday, the Donetsk republic’s defence ministry said Kiev forces opened fire on the DPR 30 times over the past 24 hours

    MOSCOW, May 2. /TASS/. Two local citizens have been wounded in Yasinovataya, a city near Donetsk, in southeastern Ukraine, as a result of a mortar shelling carried out by Kiev troops, the city mayor said on Saturday.

    "Two civilians have been injured, the man was wounded in his neck and the woman had a head wound," Mayor Yuri Korsar was quoted by the Donetsk news agency as saying. Continue reading


    Last edited by whir on Sat May 02, 2015 3:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  whir on Sat May 02, 2015 6:03 pm

    Tass wrote:Ukrainian saboteurs preparing provocations in Donetsk on Victory Day — military spokesman
    World  May 02, 17:09 UTC+3
    Defense ministry spokesman Eduard Basurin said on Saturday, that sabotage groups are planning provocations on May 8-9
    Donetsk


    MOSCOW, May 2. /TASS/. Ukraine’s army sabotage groups are planning provocations on the territory of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic on May 8-9, DPR’s defense ministry spokesman Eduard Basurin said on Saturday.
    "Sabotage groups are working along the contact line. That’s why we expect provocations on May 8-9. We have information that foreigners are there. We found out about this from radio intelligence," Barusin was quoted by the Donetsk news agency as saying. Continue Reading

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Neutrality on Sat May 02, 2015 6:18 pm

    It would be very interesting to see what kind of foreigners are fighting there. Word on the street is that there are many of these foreigners fighting on Azov's side. When I watched those videos of POWs that were captured in Debalcevo I noticed that some guys were wearing the same polars/sweaters that we did during instruction in the French Foreign Legion. Might be far fetched though, we'll never know.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Cowboy's daughter on Sat May 02, 2015 6:20 pm

    About 5,500 citizens of Kiev took part in a march in memory of the victims of the Odessa massacre and the victims of political repressions of the Kiev junta. People carried huge banners “Kiev remembers Odessa. We will never forget! We will never forgive!” and “Who is next?”, photos of killed politicians and journalists. People of Kiev demand to conduct an unbiased investigation and bring the perpetrators to justice. Police arrested the organizators of the rally.

    Truth  about  situation in Ukraine

    https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUkraine





    nikolay portnov videos


    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCloLjyH0SXkyjz-D4DRrb3g/videos

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Flagship Victory on Sat May 02, 2015 6:57 pm

    Chechens near Shirokino almost got hit by an NAF shell cheers


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  whir on Sat May 02, 2015 8:09 pm

    Tass wrote:Kiev police detain protesters commemorating Odessa victims

    Relatives of those killed in the May 2 Odessa tragedy © Arkhip Vereschagin/TASS

    World  May 02, 19:20 UTC+3

    KIEV, May 2. /TASS/. Several protesters of the ‘Kiev Remembers Odessa’ rally have been detained by the police in the Ukrainian capital, the police press service said on Saturday.

    "Law enforcers invited the men to a local police station for identification procedures," the police press service said. "During the check-up, officers found out that the men, born in 1976 and 1969 and residents of Kiev and Chernigov, had been watching the procession so later they were allowed to leave the police station."

    Earlier, social networks posted reports that the organisers of the Kiev rally commemorating the victims of tragedy that happened in the Black Sea port of Odessa on May 2, 2014 had been arrested. Continue reading

    DNR via Google Translate wrote:Глава ДНР обратился к одесситам
    The head of the DNR asked the inhabitants of Odessa

    Dear residents of Odessa! Dear people of my beloved city!

    I appeal to the families and friends of the innocent tortured patriots great city. May 2, 2014 there was a terrible tragedy that became a black page in the annals of Odessa. A beautiful city with magnificent architecture, a gem of Russian culture, the birthplace of great musicians and writers - that's what was Odessa to that terrible day.

    And here a year, like a shadow of sorrow and sadness and joy clouded first solar city. On that day, maddened Ukrainian politicians have gone on an unprecedented crime against their own people. Crowds brutal Nazis burned alive civilians, killing old people and teenagers and merciless finishing off women begging for mercy.

    The horror, the pain and the tears - that's what I saw Odessa, that is what turned a nightmare Maidan. On that day, we, like all the inhabitants of Odessa, understand the country under the name "Ukraine" no longer exists for us she died along with dozens of tortured citizens of Odessa. But I want to assure the families and loved ones of all those killed on the day of heroes: we will punish bad people, scoff at your relatives. Together with you, we will drive out of the city of Russian glory fascist degenerates, and the world will come again for our common Motherland!

    The head of the People's Republic of Donetsk

    Alexander Zakharchenko

    News Front wrote:Акция памяти жертв Одесской трагедии в Ереване
    Action in memory of the victims of the tragedy in Odessa, Yerevan

    Kharkov News Agency via Google Translate wrote:Год после «Одесской Хатыни»: онлайн-трансляция
    A year after the "Odessa Khatyn": an online broadcast

    02.05.2015 17:30
    A year after the "Odessa Khatyn": an online broadcast

    Odessa, May 2.
    Exactly one year ago in Odessa House of trade unions and on the streets killed 48 people. Odessa Katyn Victims remembered today in different cities of Europe and the world, but special attention is riveted to Odessa .
    Fearing a riot of local residents, Kiev drove to the City by the Sea dozens of armored vehicles, sbushnikov and even those who have recently fought in the area of the ATO. More than half of today Odessa police will be involved in the area of Kulikov field.

    The main event of the day - the anti-fascist rally - started at 14.00. Continue Reading

    Kharkov News Agency wrote:Наталья Поклонская: 1 мая 2015 в Крыму "Азов" готовил провокации
    Natalia Poklonskaya: May 1, 2015 in Crimea "Azov" was preparing a provocation

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  alexZam on Sat May 02, 2015 10:14 pm

    Serbs in occupied Косовской Митровице. 

    Помним Одессу - Remember Odessa.








    (Мурал на стене. Wall murals. http://www.vesti-online.com/data/ima...ver=1412413551 )


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat May 02, 2015 10:17 pm

    whir wrote:

    News Front wrote:Акция памяти жертв Одесской трагедии в Ереване
    Action in memory of the victims of the tragedy in Odessa, Yerevan

    I am very proud that my countrymen commemorated the tragedy.

    The Odessa victims are our brothers and sisters.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  whir on Sat May 02, 2015 10:50 pm

    @MarQs__ wrote:33m 33 minutes ago
    #Donetsk tonight

    @MarQs__ wrote:22m 22 minutes ago
    Video of heavy shelling in #Donetsk tonight, loud explosions can be heard:
    LiveLeak view?i=32b_1430598130


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Neutrality on Sun May 03, 2015 12:11 am

    So I'm reading Donetsk is being shelled again. Where is the peaceloving EU or OSCE? As soon as the NAF start shelling back we'll be reading about how they are violating the ceasefire. Maybe the NAF do need to take back Mariupol and force Kiev to the negotiation table.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Flagship Victory on Sun May 03, 2015 12:17 am

    Neutrality wrote:So I'm reading Donetsk is being shelled again. Where is the peaceloving EU or OSCE? As soon as the NAF start shelling back we'll be reading about how they are violating the ceasefire. Maybe the NAF do need to take back Mariupol and force Kiev to the negotiation table.

    Good point. As they say, let's get it over with. cheers

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  whir on Sun May 03, 2015 12:43 am

    OSCE wrote:The SMM monitored the implementation of the “Package of measures for the implementation of the Minsk agreements”. The SMM, based on its monitoring – which was restricted by third parties and by security considerations* – observed ongoing fighting in and around Donetsk airport, in the environs of Shyrokyne, and – to a lesser extent – in a number of other places. The SMM observed military movement on both sides of the contact line. Azov volunteer battalion members occupied an SMM observation point near Shyrokyne. Numerous peaceful rallies were held throughout the country.

    The SMM continued to observe ceasefire violations in and around Donetsk airport, and near Shyrokyne (20km east of Mariupol).[1] The SMM also noted isolated violations in a number of other locations. Just outside government-controlled Mykolaivka (41km south of Donetsk), the SMM saw three – what it assessed to be – outgoing tank rounds fired from a location approximately 2km to the north. An incoming round followed, impacting approximately 400m north of the SMM’s position. The SMM also heard an artillery round impact 10km to the north of its position in “Lugansk People’s Republic” (“LPR”)-controlled Molodizhne (62km west of Luhansk).


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Neutrality on Sun May 03, 2015 12:54 am

    whir wrote:
    OSCE wrote:The SMM monitored the implementation of the “Package of measures for the implementation of the Minsk agreements”. The SMM, based on its monitoring – which was restricted by third parties and by security considerations* – observed ongoing fighting in and around Donetsk airport, in the environs of Shyrokyne, and – to a lesser extent – in a number of other places. The SMM observed military movement on both sides of the contact line. Azov volunteer battalion members occupied an SMM observation point near Shyrokyne. Numerous peaceful rallies were held throughout the country.

    The SMM continued to observe ceasefire violations in and around Donetsk airport, and near Shyrokyne (20km east of Mariupol).[1] The SMM also noted isolated violations in a number of other locations. Just outside government-controlled Mykolaivka (41km south of Donetsk), the SMM saw three – what it assessed to be – outgoing tank rounds fired from a location approximately 2km to the north. An incoming round followed, impacting approximately 400m north of the SMM’s position. The SMM also heard an artillery round impact 10km to the north of its position in “Lugansk People’s Republic” (“LPR”)-controlled Molodizhne (62km west of Luhansk).


    At the end of that video, filthy scumbags. I genuinely hope the entire Azov battalion gets encircled and annihilated. No negotiations, no peaceful surrender. Complete and utter destruction. If you go to war to destroy then you must be ready to be destroyed.

    /rant off

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  BKP on Sun May 03, 2015 2:14 am

    Well, it seems the Ukes are unleashing quite a shelling against Donetsk now. There have been low to mid-level combats with little let-up since MinskII, but will this be the point where the dam breaks? I'm amazed it hasn't happened already. We mortals can only guess at the machinations that take place behind the scenes.

    When (if) it happens, I guess I'm emotionally prepared for the disgust that will wash over me when the MSM goes apoplectic at the "barbaric 'Russians' attacking poor democracy-loving Ukraine." McCain and ilk in both houses of congress will be spouting off, as will the Hillster, to shore up her presidential cred.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Ivan the Colorado on Sun May 03, 2015 2:21 am

    Neutrality wrote:So I'm reading Donetsk is being shelled again. Where is the peaceloving EU or OSCE? As soon as the NAF start shelling back we'll be reading about how they are violating the ceasefire. Maybe the NAF do need to take back Mariupol and force Kiev to the negotiation table.
    Taking Mariupol back may be a major catalyst in destruction of the Ukrainian economy and maybe even the Ukrainian state (honestly it is a pretty slow reaction as of now). It will almost certainly result in the fall of the Pork regime soon afterward but they might be more encouraged to launch a full out strike against Novorossiya and maybe make a bold attempt to attack Crimea beforehand. Anyhow this would hurt Russia too right now. The Russian economy has been quickly recovering in times when Ukraine is relatively peaceful like right now. So even though people are suffering and dying, I do not see the Colorados striking that major of a blow unless the Hohols were to try something first.

    Mariupol is heavily fortified and is particularly under the complete control of Azov battalion. The NAF has its forces spread thin on the front. In order to take Mariupol back, the NAF might need a push from a gentle and subtle "Eastern Wind" (hopefully with surgical airstrikes this time) to take Mariupol within a few days. Would be nice if Mariupol was put into a cauldron as well.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sun May 03, 2015 2:38 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:So I'm reading Donetsk is being shelled again. Where is the peaceloving EU or OSCE? As soon as the NAF start shelling back we'll be reading about how they are violating the ceasefire. Maybe the NAF do need to take back Mariupol and force Kiev to the negotiation table.
    Taking Mariupol back may be a major catalyst in destruction of the Ukrainian economy and maybe even the Ukrainian state (honestly it is a pretty slow reaction as of now). It will almost certainly result in the fall of the Pork regime soon afterward but they might be more encouraged to launch a full out strike against Novorossiya and maybe make a bold attempt to attack Crimea beforehand. Anyhow this would hurt Russia too right now. The Russian economy has been quickly recovering in times when Ukraine is relatively peaceful like right now. So even though people are suffering and dying, I do not see the Colorados striking that major of a blow unless the Hohols were to try something first.

    Mariupol is heavily fortified and is particularly under the complete control of Azov battalion. The NAF has its forces spread thin on the front. In order to take Mariupol back, the NAF might need a push from a gentle and subtle "Eastern Wind" (hopefully with surgical airstrikes this time) to take Mariupol within a few days. Would be nice if Mariupol was put into a cauldron as well.

    Since russian strategy seems to be attrition warfare, capturing territory may only be a secondary consideration.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Neutrality on Sun May 03, 2015 2:46 am

    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:So I'm reading Donetsk is being shelled again. Where is the peaceloving EU or OSCE? As soon as the NAF start shelling back we'll be reading about how they are violating the ceasefire. Maybe the NAF do need to take back Mariupol and force Kiev to the negotiation table.
    Taking Mariupol back may be a major catalyst in destruction of the Ukrainian economy and maybe even the Ukrainian state (honestly it is a pretty slow reaction as of now). It will almost certainly result in the fall of the Pork regime soon afterward but they might be more encouraged to launch a full out strike against Novorossiya and maybe make a bold attempt to attack Crimea beforehand. Anyhow this would hurt Russia too right now. The Russian economy has been quickly recovering in times when Ukraine is relatively peaceful like right now. So even though people are suffering and dying, I do not see the Colorados striking that major of a blow unless the Hohols were to try something first.

    Mariupol is heavily fortified and is particularly under the complete control of Azov battalion. The NAF has its forces spread thin on the front. In order to take Mariupol back, the NAF might need a push from a gentle and subtle "Eastern Wind" (hopefully with surgical airstrikes this time) to take Mariupol within a few days. Would be nice if Mariupol was put into a cauldron as well.

    Well I guess you're right. However, looking at the map of Mariupol and the surroundings and if we consider the help of "Eastern Wind" for a moment, it'd be fairly easy to conduct surgical strikes from Dolzhanskaya on Ukrainian positions. Are there artillery rounds which can be trajectory-adjusted with the help of GLONASS?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  kvs on Sun May 03, 2015 3:08 am

    I don't think the rebels can hold much more territory as they are now. They have improved significantly thanks to themselves
    and Russia, but they do not have the resources to capture land and hold it. They cannot even drive the regime forces back
    far enough to stop the shelling of Donetsk. Mariupol may be just too much resources. A good guerrilla war would be nice but
    the partisan action seems to be rather weak. People just don't want to fight. This is not like Cuba in the late 1950s. Perhaps
    with time people will start getting more interested in dying for their freedom, but now they want for the conflict go away, all by
    itself.

    Ukrainians were free up until early 2014 and have only lived under dictatorship posing as a democracy for just over a year.
    Most of them are still in denial. Donetsk and Lugansk were special in this regard.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Airbornewolf on Sun May 03, 2015 3:14 am

    Neutrality wrote:
    Ivan the Colorado wrote:
    Neutrality wrote:So I'm reading Donetsk is being shelled again. Where is the peaceloving EU or OSCE? As soon as the NAF start shelling back we'll be reading about how they are violating the ceasefire. Maybe the NAF do need to take back Mariupol and force Kiev to the negotiation table.
    Taking Mariupol back may be a major catalyst in destruction of the Ukrainian economy and maybe even the Ukrainian state (honestly it is a pretty slow reaction as of now). It will almost certainly result in the fall of the Pork regime soon afterward but they might be more encouraged to launch a full out strike against Novorossiya and maybe make a bold attempt to attack Crimea beforehand. Anyhow this would hurt Russia too right now. The Russian economy has been quickly recovering in times when Ukraine is relatively peaceful like right now. So even though people are suffering and dying, I do not see the Colorados striking that major of a blow unless the Hohols were to try something first.

    Mariupol is heavily fortified and is particularly under the complete control of Azov battalion. The NAF has its forces spread thin on the front. In order to take Mariupol back, the NAF might need a push from a gentle and subtle "Eastern Wind" (hopefully with surgical airstrikes this time) to take Mariupol within a few days. Would be nice if Mariupol was put into a cauldron as well.

    Well I guess you're right. However, looking at the map of Mariupol and the surroundings and if we consider the help of "Eastern Wind" for a moment, it'd be fairly easy to conduct surgical strikes from Dolzhanskaya on Ukrainian positions. Are there artillery rounds which can be trajectory-adjusted with the help of GLONASS?

    yes, russia has them. but for Russia the situation does not require the use of such advanced ammunition. neither does the NAF require such systems.

    just out of my curiousity, this is not the first time the suggestion was raised about using an form of guided ammunition in eastern ukraine. besides the fact of GPS/Glonass guided ammunition accuracy is far worse than advertised today's artillery units use different methods to get their accuracy. why are some of you so horny for these types of high-tech weapons?.

    Mortars just need to "settle in the base-plate" and allign the center of their baseplate to an grid refference to get an good accurate round out assuming their sights are correctly collimated. mortars are relatively short range so deviation in their rounds is minimal. it makes Mortars such great short-range artillery weapons to the frontline. but with artillery fire today's world relies more on an variety of factors for accurate fire. wind direction, windspeed, humidity, temperature, air pressure, difference of height between firing unit and target, etcetera.

    from personal Experience, at first in Afghanistan 2006 our PZH2000 shot way off course because of faulty software supplied by old weather charts and miscalculations. when the PZH2000 computers where calibrated with the current software it shot dead-on targets at max range without any sort of guidance in the round itself.

    im aware the NAF got perhaps less advanced systems. but the obvious alternative with less acurate fire is to saturate an target area. and it should really not be an problem to NAF artillery as i judged there are several people there that know how to adjust their fire in the first or second correction. but NAF learned quick in their conflict with Kiev. they really do not need guided ammunition to get their job done.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Neutrality on Sun May 03, 2015 3:17 am

    kvs wrote:I don't think the rebels can hold much more territory as they are now.   They have improved significantly thanks to themselves
    and Russia, but they do not have the resources to capture land and hold it.   They cannot even drive the regime forces back
    far enough to stop the shelling of Donetsk.   Mariupol may be just too much resources.   A good guerrilla war would be nice but
    the partisan action seems to be rather weak.   People just don't want to fight.  This is not like Cuba in the late 1950s.   Perhaps
    with time people will start getting more interested in dying for their freedom, but now they want for the conflict go away, all by
    itself.

    Ukrainians were free up until early 2014 and have only lived under dictatorship posing as a democracy for just over a year.
    Most of them are still in denial.   Donetsk and Lugansk were special in this regard.

    I disagree with you here. Remember that NAF advance was stopped due to the Minks II agreements otherwise they'd be pushing very deep into Ukrainian territory right now. They caught a significant force with their pants down in Debalceve. And if that force would've been completely wiped out, the Ukrainian army wouldn't have the manpower to defend their territory against further advances of the NAF.

    All of that reflects on the weak partisan action. As soon as things flare up again I expect this will follow as well.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  Neutrality on Sun May 03, 2015 3:24 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    just out of my curiousity, this is not the first time the suggestion was raised about using an form of guided ammunition in eastern ukraine. besides the fact of GPS/Glonass guided ammunition accuracy is far worse than advertised today's artillery units use different methods to get their accuracy. why are some of you so horny for these types of high-tech weapons?.

    I'm no military expert so I'm just speculating with what I know. Quick elimination of large pockets of manpower for one. Bigger damage is another one. How about using mini drones with laser acquisition or is that not possible for artillery rounds yet?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

    Post  BKP on Sun May 03, 2015 3:36 am

    Neutrality wrote:I disagree with you here. Remember that NAF advance was stopped due to the Minks II agreements otherwise they'd be pushing very deep into Ukrainian territory right now. They caught a significant force with their pants down in Debalceve. And if that force would've been completely wiped out, the Ukrainian army wouldn't have the manpower to defend their territory against further advances of the NAF.

    All of that reflects on the weak partisan action. As soon as things flare up again I expect this will follow as well.

    Hmm. I'm not so sure that NAF caught them with their pants down, exactly. Sealing the lid of the cauldron (somewhat loosely) took quite a bit of time, if i recall correctly. And, it was pretty apparent beforehand what was transpiring. It seemed to me that the Ukes fell victim to their refusal to face reality, which was that they needed to organize a tactical retreat from Debaltsevo. But, they instead saw the needed retreat as a humiliation they weren't about to accept. This has been a tendency and a serious problem for them, and an advantage for the NAF.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #12

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