Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

Isos wrote:http://www.opex360.com/2021/12/29/le-rafale-a-les-faveurs-de-la-force-aerienne-serbe/

Serbia interested by the Rafale.

This ain't happening

Rafales are expensive as f*ck and are nowhere near worth the money (which we would prefer to spend on something more useful than aerial bling)

If we for some reason do go for Western fighter jets it would definitely be American ones

F-15X, F-18 or even F-35 are all cheaper while offering superior performance to say nothing of infinitely bigger geopolitical cookie points we would get from USA compared to France

Compared to USA France has nothing to offer in that department



Only way has would buy Rafales would be if French offered us discount so insane that it would make their previous customers permanently cut diplomatic ties with them (and we ain't getting that discount)



Also we just recently got our hands on MiG-29s so we are covered for a while on that end



If you want some rumors that might have some chances of being true (still a long shot) there is one making rounds lately about possibly buying M-346 trainer/combat jets from Italians for $10-15 million a pop (and unlike fighter jets our airforce is currently actually shopping around for this type of plane)

Arkanghelsk wrote:Rafale is a sweet plane, many of the features are innovative and very nice technological.

But the only drawback is the combat range. I read somewhere that with 3 fuel tanks it has decent range in low penetration mission.

But it wont be going over air defenses in that load out , and it's really more point defense fighter with that kind of range.

Without the supporting role of tankers and other things, mig 35 is better option even mig 29m2 for serb needs with low budget

Take a look at Serbia. They don't need huge range.

F-15X, F-18 or even F-35 are all cheaper while offering superior performance to say nothing of infinitely bigger geopolitical cookie points we would get from USA compared to France

Agree for the cost but Rafale destroys all of these US fighters quite easily...

US doesn't care a lot about Serbia. Serbia is trying to go into EU so it makes sense to buy european. They already ordered MANPADS from france.

If they however buy a western plane that could get Moscow angry. Your mig-29 were gifted and you spend money on other planes. Quite a joke if you ask me.

It's not just Rafales (who knows what will happen with that), they announce bying 180 new JTLV vehicles from USA.

But we are already producing our own vehicles, Milos...so much stupidity.

Btw, we will get 22 new French AESA radars, first batch in 2022.

Isos wrote:

miketheterrible wrote:

Isos wrote:http://www.opex360.com/2021/12/29/le-rafale-a-les-faveurs-de-la-force-aerienne-serbe/

Serbia interested by the Rafale.

That ain't gonna happen.

Why ? They already bought french stuff.

Yes, and the cost will be?

Serbia cannot afford it or they will have then grounded for most part.

A token buy to buy politics. French are still pissed at USA for Australia ordeal so best bet Serbia sees it as an opportunity to buy a very expensive jet to gain some kind of political points. Otherwise, the jet is mostly useful for nations that have the budget to buy them, maintain them and actually fly them. Serbia budget is rather too small for that.

I seem to recall years ago Serbia wanted to buy all this Euro junk to suck off for EU integration. Then EU funded anti government protests. Anyway, Serbia isn't in a good position. If they jump to EU, they won't get anything from Russia later. If they jump to Russia, nothing will happen to Serbia and it will be status quo.

Serbia is better off trying to make stuff for themselves. And if they can't, try to find partners willing to assist them in it. Offer long term contract deals that they will guarantee buying 10+ jets a year till they meet their goal. If they got one that is.

I guess if they try to buy it it's gonna be some old from french stocks, same way as Croatia.

New one is impossible.

Buying german typhoons could also be a solution. They could get them cheaper as they still operate first version mainly used for air to air.

In terms of number I couldn't imagine them buying more than 4 anyway.

Serbia needs to buy from EU if they want investement in their country. You know "free market", "democracy"...

littlerabbit wrote:It's not just Rafales (who knows what will happen with that)...

Nothing

It's hypothetical discussion over random rumour

We already have MiG-29s, end of story

littlerabbit wrote:...they announce bying 180 new JTLV vehicles from USA.

But we are already producing our own vehicles, Milos...so much stupidity.  ...

JTVL and Milos are not in the same category, check the specs

Milos is heavy MRAP

JTVL is just new version of Humvee

Since we don't actually make anything in JTVL range buying them to keep USA from getting angsty would be affordable option (definitely better than having to buy their other super expensive stuff)

We can actualy find use for JTVLs plus they ain't maintenance intensive

littlerabbit wrote:...Btw, we will get 22 new French AESA radars, first batch in 2022.

Got any details? This slipped me by

We are still waiting for those 3 Super-Pumas from French, it's like they are building warships and not helicopters...

Isos wrote:US doesn't care a lot about Serbia. ...

Neither does France

Unlike them USA can at least be useful

Isos wrote:..Serbia is trying to go into EU so it makes sense to buy european.  ...

No it doesn't

Joining EU is not some big deal over here (not anymore anyway)

It's seen as something to get checked off the list, we can already travel wherever we want in EU and by now everyone knows that there will be no free money from EU (and realistically we already checked all the boxes for membership but regardless it will not be happening anytime soon)

Also it's clear as day that EU will not be expanding anymore at least for decades to come and once they do decide to expand Croatia will just veto us joining, this ain’t' a big mystery  

And the moment Kosovo recognition is pulled out as condition for joining (which it will) the whole story will be finished because there no way in hell it would ever pass the referendum  

So back to topic, we can buy weapons from whomever we want

Isos wrote:They already ordered MANPADS from france....

Still not delivered, just like Super-Pumas

And we also have Kornets from Russia (ordered after French MANPADS but delivered before them, shoddy service by the French)

miketheterrible wrote:A token buy to buy politics...

It's not a buy, it's a rumour

Second hand airplane from second tier power that costs more than top of the line next-gen aircraft from a global superpower?

Even dumbest local randos know it ain't happening

Rafale is expensive indeed, but proven itself that it also can shoot down U.S F-22's with vector trust in an dogfight.

he has an lock multiple times, but at 2:34 he has the F-22 dead center.

But i know 120 Million a piece is an massive ammount of money.

In that regard why not almost field three Griphen's with nearly the same capacity?.
https://aviatia.net/dassault-rafale-vs-saab-gripen/

Did i mention the Griphen does not need fancy,dirt-free NATO runway's?.
some free piece of road will do just fine. And no heavy machinery needed for servicing.



If i was Serbia i'd stick with Russian weaponry, because i know NATO will blackmail Serbia with contract's,servicing and parts as soon Serbia does something Nato does not like.

Grippen is worse. There are 10 countries involved in it. Get one angry and no spare parts.

PapaDragon wrote:

littlerabbit wrote:...Btw, we will get 22 new French AESA radars, first batch in 2022.

Got any details? This slipped me by

We are still waiting for those 3 Super-Pumas from French, it's like they are building warships and not helicopters...

We will get Ground Master GM 400 and GM 200 radars, that's all I know.

First units will arrive in 2022.

Serbia has ordered two Airbus C295s from Spain

https://www.joint-forces.com/defence-equipment-news/51455-serbian-air-force-orders-airbus-c295

PapaDragon wrote:
Serbia has ordered two Airbus C295s from Spain

https://www.joint-forces.com/defence-equipment-news/51455-serbian-air-force-orders-airbus-c295

This is really good, but not enough. We need at least 3. Don't know why we are bying everything in such a small numbers...I think it's very stupid.

What for ? Serbia is surrounded by NATO, if it goes at war with any of its neighbourg it will be destroyed again by nato. What they really need is atgm, manpad and pantsirs. Rest is theorically useless.

Isos wrote:What for ? Serbia is surrounded by NATO, if it goes at war with any of its neighbourg it will be destroyed again by nato. What they really need is atgm, manpad and pantsirs. Rest is theorically useless.

Serbia needs big and strong army. If they will build it no one will play with them. Not even NATO.

Yugo90 wrote:

Isos wrote:What for ? Serbia is surrounded by NATO, if it goes at war with any of its neighbourg it will be destroyed again by nato. What they really need is atgm, manpad and pantsirs. Rest is theorically useless.

Serbia needs big and strong army. If they will build it no one will play with them. Not even NATO.

It doesn't have the economy to have a big army. Its geography also makes it vulnerable, small and no access to water.

Serbia is considering purchasing 12 Rafale fighter jets

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4510214.html

04/13/2022

ЦАМТО, 12 April.



On April 9, 6 large military transport Y-20A aircraft of the PLA Air Force (b.n. 20041, 20042, 20045, 20047, 20049 and 20142) landed at the Belgrade airport, which, presumably, delivered a batch of medium-range air defense systems FK-3 (export version of the HQ- 22).

Six more PLA Air Force planes flew the same route on April 10, probably with additional SAM components. According to the Flightradar24 website, the Y-20A landed in Baku (Azerbaijan) on the flight route, after which they crossed the airspace of Turkey and Bulgaria. The flight of PLA military aircraft armed over the territory of at least two NATO member countries was regarded by a number of experts as a demonstration of China's growing global influence. Serbian military analyst Aleksandar Radic said that in this way "China carried out a show of force."

According to Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hua Chunying, after the arrival of six Y-20 aircraft in Serbia, Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi confirmed in a telephone conversation with his Serbian counterpart Nikola Selakovic that China "strongly supports Serbia in defending the sovereignty of , territorial integrity and national security".

The Serbian Ministry of Defense has not yet commented on reports of the delivery. According to the China Global Times, three FK-3 air defense systems were delivered to Belgrade. Serbian President Aleksandar Vučić practically confirmed the delivery of the systems, telling reporters on April 9 that next week he would present "new weapon systems that will become the pride of the Serbian armed forces."

Serbia will become the first operator of Chinese air defense systems in Europe. As reported by TsAMTO, the purchase of the FK-3 air defense system by Serbia first became known in July 2020 from the annual report of the Serbian company Jugoimport SDPR. The complexes were ordered in 2019.

As a military expert from Hong Kong Liang Guoliang said, Serbia purchased three FK-3 complexes from China, each of which includes three launchers, a radar, a control vehicle, support vehicles, auxiliary equipment and equipment, and missiles.

In 2020, US officials warned Belgrade against buying SAMs from China, saying if Serbia really wants to join the European Union and other Western alliances, it must bring its military hardware up to Western standards.

The HQ-22 air defense system was developed by the Chinese Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation CASIC (China Aerospace Science & Industry Corporation Limited) and is designed to destroy various types of aerodynamic and ballistic targets (including UAVs and TBR warheads). The firing range is from 5 to 170 km, the height of target destruction is from 50 m to 27 km. According to available information, the maximum firing range of the export version of the FK-3 is 100 km.

On April 9, Serbian President A. Vučić also announced that he was negotiating with France on the purchase of 12 new Rafal fighters and with another country on the purchase of 12 used Rafals.
In addition, A. Vucic told reporters that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan assured him that Serbia would be able to buy armed Bayraktar TB2 UAVs.

https://vpk.name/news/594545_samoletami_vta_y-20a_vvs_noak_v_serbiyu_dostavleny_zrk_fk-3.html

Still think rafale us a bad choice very expensive to buy and maintain and with Serbia small budget, not a great idea. Would be better buying cheaper aircraft that are still capable multiple choices available and with money leftover to improve ground forces equipment, iskander would be a good choice for ground forces.

ALAMO wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:Still think rafale us a bad choice very expensive to buy and maintain and with Serbia small budget, not a great idea. Would be better buying cheaper aircraft that are still capable multiple choices available and with money leftover to improve ground forces equipment, iskander would be a good choice for ground forces.

I guess that you are trying to apply logic to a bribe.
Bribes are ruled by their own logic

Agree, much better solution to buy Chinese J-10C, at least 2 squadrons. Much cheaper solution and I believe those planes are not worse than European overpriced machines.  


By the way, at least 18-20 planes landed on Serbian AF base Batajnica, last week. Some sources even suggested 30 planes, but that information is not reliable.

With 18 planes, you can probably move 2 FK-3 batteries with them...maybe few more drones and ammo (rockets).

We bought minimum 3 batteries for now, as we know.  

That's a very long time to build such system for the chinese. I was thinking thry would get them very fast after signing the contract.

Would be nice to see some jf-17 sold to them too.

ALAMO wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:Still think rafale us a bad choice very expensive to buy and maintain and with Serbia small budget, not a great idea. Would be better buying cheaper aircraft that are still capable multiple choices available and with money leftover to improve ground forces equipment, iskander would be a good choice for ground forces.

I guess that you are trying to apply logic to a bribe.
Bribes are ruled by their own logic

It's definitely a bribe, doubly so for Eurofighters but considering our situation the choice now is between paying a bribe, sanctioning Russia or getting sanctioned ourselves  

This is least shitty option

how many HQ-22 batteries delivered?