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    Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

    Post  Militarov on Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:25 pm

    medo wrote:

    Cockpit of Serbian MiG-29A (L-18). I would like to ask, if those MiGs went through any deeper modernization or they only change old radar screen with new MFD?

    Just some cockpit layout changes, nothing remarkable or deep.
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    d_taddei2

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    Post  d_taddei2 on Sat Jul 01, 2017 12:21 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    medo wrote:I hope all Serb MiG-29 fighters will be upgraded to MiG-29SM standard and becomming fully multirole, like Myanmar will do. MiG-29SM is also equipped with new data link and SATNAV.

    Regarding J-22 Orao, I think Serbia could modernize them with Gefest SVP-24, what will give to J-22 SATNAV and new data link and will be compatible with MiG-29SM. They could also equipp them with SOLT-25 from Su-25SM3. I doubt Serbia have money for Solt-25, but SVP-24 would be excellent upgrade package and it is combat proven.

    They are mentioning modernisation, however various sources claim different things, as there is another offer for Belarus MiGs. So modernisation standards are big unknown.

    Regarding Orao, major issue is almost unexisting spare parts base for such long service time. There is no point in prolonging service life for something you cant keep flying.

    I agree with you the aircraft are getting old and lack of parts and cost to restart they would be better buying armed multirole Yak-130 than pursuing upgrades etc on Orao it would probably be cheaper and the Yak-130 will be in service in larger numbers for many years to come so no risk of parts shortage. I also doubt the comment made in the article "Experts came to a conclusion that the service life of the jet can be extended to up to 40 years and possibly for another eight years, so in that way Orao can serve up to 48 years,” i would highly doubt such an aircraft would last that long especially considering funding and parts and would such an aircraft be any good in 40yrs?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:03 am

    d_taddei2 wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    medo wrote:I hope all Serb MiG-29 fighters will be upgraded to MiG-29SM standard and becomming fully multirole, like Myanmar will do. MiG-29SM is also equipped with new data link and SATNAV.

    Regarding J-22 Orao, I think Serbia could modernize them with Gefest SVP-24, what will give to J-22 SATNAV and new data link and will be compatible with MiG-29SM. They could also equipp them with SOLT-25 from Su-25SM3. I doubt Serbia have money for Solt-25, but SVP-24 would be excellent upgrade package and it is combat proven.

    They are mentioning modernisation, however various sources claim different things, as there is another offer for Belarus MiGs. So modernisation standards are big unknown.

    Regarding Orao, major issue is almost unexisting spare parts base for such long service time. There is no point in prolonging service life for something you cant keep flying.

    I agree with you the aircraft are getting old and lack of parts and cost to restart they would be better buying armed multirole Yak-130 than pursuing upgrades etc on Orao it would probably be cheaper and the Yak-130 will be in service in larger numbers for many years to come so no risk of parts shortage. I also doubt the comment made in the article "Experts came to a conclusion that the service life of the jet can be extended to up to 40 years and possibly for another eight years, so in that way Orao can serve up to 48 years,” i would highly doubt such an aircraft would last that long especially considering funding and parts and would such an aircraft be any good in 40yrs?

    Well.. in theory you could keep them flying for another 10 years, however you would need to make many parts literally on order, many abroad in UK or France, or Romania as we dont have production capabilities anymore... absurd. Would cost millions and millions.

    On other hand we dont have money for new aircraft either at this point. So yeah...
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:19 am

    While its understandable that they lost a lot of its manufacturing capabilities since the Yugoslavia dissolving, it would have been a pretty good opportune time for Serbia to look at partners in middle east and Asia whom would have been happy to obtain some co development in producing Serbian equipment. Even that alone would have saved billions and both parties could get what they need, while what little is left of Serbian mil manufacturing could actually thrive.

    Was it Iraq who was purchasing the M-21 Zastava? What was the overall thought on these rifles?
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:44 am

    miketheterrible wrote:While its understandable that they lost a lot of its manufacturing capabilities since the Yugoslavia dissolving, it would have been a pretty good opportune time for Serbia to look at partners in middle east and Asia whom would have been happy to obtain some co development in producing Serbian equipment. Even that alone would have saved billions and both parties could get what they need, while what little is left of Serbian mil manufacturing could actually thrive.

    Was it Iraq who was purchasing the M-21 Zastava? What was the overall thought on these rifles?

    Well regarding aviation industry, we have just remains of the remains. So on that field we would need a miracle, not partners Very Happy

    It was Iraq, yes, certain amounts. It was also obtained by Armenia (Special forces), Azerbaijan (special forces), Macedonia (special forces), Bosnia and Herzegovina (special police forces), Cameroon (special police forces), some token amounts were also exported to Peru, Jordan, Angola...

    General response from our army was...not that great. Its good system, however rifle in general had spotty and sloppy production quality and ergonomic flaws compared to products its supposed to compete with. That is the reason why army stopped procuring them and now are waiting for "new rifle", this modular thingie they are trying to push now into service with special brigade.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:55 am

    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:While its understandable that they lost a lot of its manufacturing capabilities since the Yugoslavia dissolving, it would have been a pretty good opportune time for Serbia to look at partners in middle east and Asia whom would have been happy to obtain some co development in producing Serbian equipment. Even that alone would have saved billions and both parties could get what they need, while what little is left of Serbian mil manufacturing could actually thrive.

    Was it Iraq who was purchasing the M-21 Zastava? What was the overall thought on these rifles?

    Well regarding aviation industry, we have just remains of the remains. So on that field we would need a miracle, not partners Very Happy

    It was Iraq, yes, certain amounts. It was also obtained by Armenia (Special forces), Azerbaijan (special forces), Macedonia (special forces), Bosnia and Herzegovina (special police forces), Cameroon (special police forces), some token amounts were also exported to Peru, Jordan, Angola...

    General response from our army was...not that great. Its good system, however rifle in general had spotty and sloppy production quality and ergonomic flaws compared to products its supposed to compete with. That is the reason why army stopped procuring them and now are waiting for "new rifle", this modular thingie they are trying to push now into service with special brigade.

    What particular spotty quality was it? And what kind of issues did it create?  The rest seem kinda aesthetic IMO but hey, if they are going to spend the money, understandable that they better get the best.  Was a cool looking rifle.  I am actually liking the look of this new one.  So hope to hear about the results on this.

    I imagine the Aerospace took the biggest hit. That is why I am saying more about ground based systems. Serbia is rather a small country to be producing all types of new systems, but even coming up with a multirole aircraft would be ideal, even if they do JV's with multiple countries. Wishful thinking, I know.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:10 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:While its understandable that they lost a lot of its manufacturing capabilities since the Yugoslavia dissolving, it would have been a pretty good opportune time for Serbia to look at partners in middle east and Asia whom would have been happy to obtain some co development in producing Serbian equipment. Even that alone would have saved billions and both parties could get what they need, while what little is left of Serbian mil manufacturing could actually thrive.

    Was it Iraq who was purchasing the M-21 Zastava? What was the overall thought on these rifles?

    Well regarding aviation industry, we have just remains of the remains. So on that field we would need a miracle, not partners Very Happy

    It was Iraq, yes, certain amounts. It was also obtained by Armenia (Special forces), Azerbaijan (special forces), Macedonia (special forces), Bosnia and Herzegovina (special police forces), Cameroon (special police forces), some token amounts were also exported to Peru, Jordan, Angola...

    General response from our army was...not that great. Its good system, however rifle in general had spotty and sloppy production quality and ergonomic flaws compared to products its supposed to compete with. That is the reason why army stopped procuring them and now are waiting for "new rifle", this modular thingie they are trying to push now into service with special brigade.

    What particular spotty quality was it? And what kind of issues did it create?  The rest seem kinda aesthetic IMO but hey, if they are going to spend the money, understandable that they better get the best.  Was a cool looking rifle.  I am actually liking the look of this new one.  So hope to hear about the results on this.

    Corrosive protection wasnt adequate, plastic wasnt all that great, chrome lining in barrel wasnt great... heat threatment wasnt good enough... list goes on, depending on series. Optronics were basically not issued at all even tho the rifle was developed from the start to be used with optics and not iron sights, plastic magazine was an absolute garbage...

    One of the officers during my service got M-21 and kept it in his locker, took it out on firing range one day and showed it to us, he personally wasnt satisfied with stock, as it was too short for him, as he was quite big man. For me it was okay, yet again abit short as i did not have my vest on. Later he showed us how drop of sweat (probably) fell on it after it was cleaned, while it was taken to the locker, and rust appeared after day or two. That sort of shouldnt happen.

    In general majority of our specialised units doesnt use it, they use either foreign rifles or M-70 variants for every day use.

    I am to be honest abit afraid
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:18 am

    So the good old M-70 is still preferred by most?

    The ministry made it clear to Zastava over these issues, yes? If so, they "promised" to at least fix these issues in next rifle, yes?

    I have nothing but high respect for Serbia's defense capabilities even for the current state it is in and the size of the nation. I just hope to see one day a growing and thriving defense industry there. Personally, if their products were exported even here for civil consumption I know I would invest in one.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:42 am

    Most weapons have problems in the field... the key is for the makers to look at their products in service and to listen to feedback from users and make changes to solve problems...


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    Militarov

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    Re: Serbian Air Force Needs and Modernization

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:16 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:So the good old M-70 is still preferred by most?

    The ministry made it clear to Zastava over these issues, yes?  If so, they "promised" to at least fix these issues in next rifle, yes?

    I have nothing but high respect for Serbia's defense capabilities even for the current state it is in and the size of the nation.  I just hope to see one day a growing and thriving defense industry there.  Personally, if their products were exported even here for civil consumption I know I would invest in one.

    Yeah, M-70 is widespread even in specialised units, especially for "every day" use. They exist in significant quantities and ammo is plentiful. M-70AB2 has its issues too, bad stock most notably, as its quite wobbly on rifles that were used. But in general its not bad rifle.

    Well... i guess so, not that i know for sure that someone protested over M-21 issues, but since they are making new rifles i suppose thats the reason.

    Zastava has good tradition, decent quality, however its far from what it was some 30 years ago. They still produce very fine hunting carabines for an example. Even Remington is buying Zastava components for themself.

    Zastava is aside the Bulgarian Arsenal, probably the most famous and widespread producer of "sovietized" small arms in the United States.

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