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    Su-24 Fencer

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    Su-24 Fencer

    Post  USAF on Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:43 am

    It seems the Su-24 makes up a large quantity of the total Russian Air Force fighter/bomber inventory. This airframe is dated and I am sure expensive to maintain and fly. It is, however, still a capable airframe. I assume the Su-34 will eventually replace it. In the mean time, with limited quantities of the Su-34 in service now, the Su-24 still flies. What is the best course of action? Should the Air Force start downsizing its fleet of Su-24’s dramatically? This would mean creating a void in the total number of fighter/bombers in service along with creating a void of aircraft for these Su-24 pilots to train in and fly. This would be a tough decision to make if one was presented with this. On the other hand, cutting the Su-24 fleet can free up money to put towards increasing Su-34 production. This is why I am not a General or in Government.

    Tell me your thoughts.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:53 am

    The Su-24 cannot be withdrawn until the Su-34 replaces it. Last year Su-34 still had not cleared weapons certification which has caused delay. Most of the Soviet era fleet has been retired already with the mass layoff of VVS pilots.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:24 am

    With all the single engine aircraft withdrawn, which includes all the light strike aircraft like the Su-17/-22 series, and the Mig-27s and of course also a lack of modified multirole aircraft like Mig-29SMT and Su-27SM aircraft the vast majority of ground attack capability rests with the Su-24 fleet of which something like 500 are still in service from an original number of something like 1200 originally made.

    Removing the Fencer from the fleet would leave an enormous gap in capability, not just in the strike role but also in the jammer and SEAD role too, for which they are also used.

    Upgrades to the Fencers should keep them viable as modern strike aircraft till the Su-34 is available in numbers to replace it. Remember also for some longer range missions with heavier loads there is also the Tu-22M3 which has always been used in the bomber role. With upgrades to the Bear and Blackjack fleet they should also be able to be used in a conventional strike role too.

    There are probably more Fencers in service than there are Fulcrums or Flankers right now.

    I think it is a very underrated aircraft.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Farhad Gulemov on Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I think it is a very underrated aircraft.

    Do you know anything about their use/performance in the wars in Chechnia and South Ossetia? There were lots of SU-25s used, but what about the Fencers?
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:59 am

    First of all the Fencer is not a combat air support aircraft like the Su-25 and it would not be used to attack targets near your own troops.

    The Fencer is in the same class as the European Tornado in the strike role (not the interceptor version), or the US F-111, and now the F-15E.
    The Fencer has not been getting all the upgrades those western aircraft have been getting for the last 30-40 years, but for roles like flying deep into enemy territory very low and very fast to hit targets like factories or HQs or communications centres, or indeed deep bunkers then it is the weapon of choice for the Russians.

    With a big upgrade now and all new weapons it could probably match all those western equivelents, but the simple fact is that its replacement has been developed so only a more basic upgrade with sat navigation and CCIP bombing capability is being added.

    Its huge nose still holds two radars, one for terrain avoidance and the other to scan for ground targets and aircraft... the latter to avoid of course, it is not a fighter.

    There are also recon and jammer models that are rare assets in the Russian AF that are expensive, but hopefully their value will retain their services and generate a requirement for a replacement. I had read they were looking at a jammer based on the Tu-22M3, but tested against a jammer based on the Il-76 found the latter to be much more effective because of the extra power. Obviously a Su-34 based jammer would be better equipped to enter enemy territory and could keep up with a strike force, but then they might be considering some thing else.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Farhad Gulemov on Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:First of all the Fencer is not a combat air support aircraft like the Su-25 and it would not be used to attack targets near your own troops.

    Correct. And there were plenty of deep strike missions in Georgia (as reported by the "outraged" corporate media) and I suspect that the same was true in Chechnya. This is why I am curious as to how much, if at all, the Fencers were used.

    To be more specific: what I don't understand is why Georgian airfieds, the Georgian Navy, Gerogian supply and fuel dumps, and Georgian radar stations and communication nodes were not destroyed by Fencer strikes in the first 24 hours of the war. These are targets which force packages of strike and SEAD Fencers escorted by Flankers should have been able to engage even before the Russian forces managed to get the first battalion through the Roki tunnel.

    Part of the explanation could be that the Russians were taken by complete surprize by the Georgian attack. But once Tskhinval was clearly under attack and the Russian peacekeepers were dying, the image of what this was all about should have been clear. So is the failure of the Russian Air Force to successfully engage Georgian targets throughout the area of operations indicates to me that the servicability of the Fencers and the readiness of the Russian Air Force personnel (outside the high readiness North Caucasus MD) must have been very low.

    And that makes me wonder how many Fencers could take off today and successfully accomplish their mission.

    Any thought?
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:58 pm

    Farhad Gulemov wrote:

    Correct. And there were plenty of deep strike missions in Georgia (as reported by the "outraged" corporate media) and I suspect that the same was true in Chechnya. This is why I am curious as to how much, if at all, the Fencers were used.

    The Su-24 was used widely in the opening bombing campaign and for recon. MoD never released the Su-24 losses but MDB reported 2 lost to MANPADs. There was a minor scandal of cover-up as an Su-24 pilot reported on a casualty list had his facebook with all his Su-24 pictures removed in the middle of the war as he was reported lost on the Tu-22M3. Su-24s were used in the deep strikes against Tblisi and Poti areas. They were targeting air fields, communication centres, and known radar locations. The Georgians claimed attacks on radar and air fields were at the airports and attacks on communications were police stations.




    To be more specific: what I don't understand is why Georgian airfieds, the Georgian Navy, Gerogian supply and fuel dumps, and Georgian radar stations and communication nodes were not destroyed by Fencer strikes in the first 24 hours of the war. These are targets which force packages of strike and SEAD Fencers escorted by Flankers should have been able to engage even before the Russian forces managed to get the first battalion through the Roki tunnel.

    It was done, but not to the effect it should have been. All they knew was before the war. The use of aerial recon was ineffective and there was no ELINT employed. Mobile radars could not be located, unkown communication centres not found, it was a hard time just tracking troop movements. Flying a recon mission and bringing the film back to analyse takes hours, and in a fluid war is just about worthless. Flankers were flying combat patrol but did not enter Georgian air space. There wasn't really a reason to with their lack of ground attack as they would just be another target. Fencers do not have the equipment to run a real SEAD operation. The SPO-15 RWR will tell you what kind of radar, direction of threat and signal strength. It will not give you a missile lock. There is an L-081 pod but they are largely inoperative today as well as the missiles made for them. That means to run SEAD, you have to play wild weasle like the F-105 in Vietnam.


    Part of the explanation could be that the Russians were taken by complete surprize by the Georgian attack. But once Tskhinval was clearly under attack and the Russian peacekeepers were dying, the image of what this was all about should have been clear. So is the failure of the Russian Air Force to successfully engage Georgian targets throughout the area of operations indicates to me that the servicability of the Fencers and the readiness of the Russian Air Force personnel (outside the high readiness North Caucasus MD) must have been very low.

    They weren't so suprised, they knew it was coming at some point. It is the failure of Russian procurement and MIC to develop and buy the weapons and recon assets needed for war. We fought a 21st century war with 70s technology.

    And that makes me wonder how many Fencers could take off today and successfully accomplish their mission.

    Any thought?

    About 300 are in Frontal Aviation... readiness rates are around 50% based on VVS average.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Farhad Gulemov on Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:28 am

    thanks for the exhaustive and very informative reply! thumbsup
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Cyberspec on Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:15 am

    Su-24's at the Shagol airbase have been equipped with Upaz refuelling pods

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11535256@egNews
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    Su-24 modernization

    Post  Viktor on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:19 pm

    What is this upgrade SU-24M will get?

    Only accuracy of non guided missiles or something else?


    02/08/13 BOMBERS BASED "SHAGOL" WILL RECEIVE NEW EQUIPMENT BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR


    RIA Novosti . Central Military District (CVO) to the end of 2013 to equip all bombers airbase "Shagol" (Chelyabinsk region) new specialized computer system "Hephaestus", which will increase the accuracy of bombing three times, according to a Friday press office CVO.

    "On Air" Shagol "completes conversion of the Su-24M new sighting and navigation system" http://www.militaryparitet.com/ttp/data/ic_ttp/5125/. "Specialized Computer System SVP-24" Hephaestus "will be installed on all bombers connection to the end of 2013," - said in a statement. As noted, by that time the representatives of the aviation industry to be equipped with an additional 8 bombers.

    According to the CVO, a new sighting and navigation system combines the targeting system, navigation and control, it is resistant to weather and increases the survival of aircraft. Using the SVP-24 enhance the ability of the crew to use tactics during the search, leaving the target, aiming and hitting, say the military.

    LINK

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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  TR1 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:47 pm

    That's the Gefest&T upgrade; only 5 or so were originally upgraded because Sukhoi pushed their own Su-24M2 upgrade.
    After 8-8-8 war Generals liked Gefest& T performance (cheap, but usefull nee computers and targeting equipment), and ordered a bunch.

    I have heard estimates that as many as 50 Su-24M have received the upgrade!
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:06 am

    The Gefest&T upgrade was a ballistics computer and HUD upgrade that displayed a continously calculated impact point for dumb bombs and unguided rockets in the HUD.

    This greatly increases the accuracy of weapons use in free flight with unguided weapons and resulted in accuracy comparable to guided weapons using dumb unguided bombs.

    It was also fitted to an upgraded Tu-22M3.


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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:14 am

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11757774@egNews

    All Su-24s in the Central Military Okrug have been upgraded by Gefest.
    This confirms bmpd's info that many dozens were upgraded after performance in the 8-8-8 War. Good to see MOD finally came to its senses after years of Gefest&T languishing with several aiframes @ Lipetsk, though too bad it did not happen 10-5 years ago. Su-24 is very much on its way out as Su-34 deliveries add up.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  sepheronx on Thu Jun 06, 2013 3:11 pm

    TR1 wrote:http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11757774@egNews

    All Su-24s in the Central Military Okrug have been upgraded by Gefest.
    This confirms bmpd's info that many dozens were upgraded after performance in the 8-8-8 War. Good to see MOD finally came to its senses after years of Gefest&T languishing with several aiframes @ Lipetsk, though too bad it did not happen 10-5 years ago. Su-24 is very much on its way out as Su-34 deliveries add up.

    Su-24 still has a bit more time it has to serve as the Su-34 is coming out, but slowly and even by 2020, the 124 of them will not suffice for all the amount of Su-24 there are. So upgrading to meet todays and tomorrows threats is still important. The Gefast & T upgrade is great, as it was really much needed. But now they really need to push the EW/ECCM capabilities of the aircraft some more to protect it against current/future radar.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:58 am

    Hopefully by 2020 there will be 124 Su-34s and the remaining Su-24s can be replaced by Skat UCAVs in the 2,000km range strike role.

    With stealth they could fly couple of dozen at medium altitude armed with Kh-31s looking for SAMs and radar with a couple of other UCAVs also flying at medium altitude (above ground fire and able to extend cruising range due to altitude) to the target area and dropping TV or laser guided bombs on the target and then leaving at high speed.

    Su-34s might escort them providing jamming assistance and with a few ARMs, a few R-37Ms and R-77Ms long and medium range air protection too.

    Certainly plenty for a regional conflict.

    Plus the Tu-22M3M upgrade should make it useful to replace the Su-24 for its longer ranged missions with heavy payloads.


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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  mack8 on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:53 pm

    So, any idea how many Su-24M2 and how many Su-24M "Gefest" have been re-delivered so far, and how many more are planned? Thanks.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  TR1 on Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:58 pm

    mack8 wrote:So, any idea how many Su-24M2 and how many Su-24M "Gefest" have been re-delivered so far, and how many more are planned? Thanks.
    No more Su-24M2. The number is bigger than 24 (Done at NAPO, there were further upgraded at another workshop) but probably no bigger than 48.

    As of earlier this year, from the info I got from bmpd blog, there were 50 Gefest airframes, and more incoming. Not sure if the plan is the whole fleet, some of the birds are getting old and Su-34 is arriving.


    EDIT:

    http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=11757774@egNews

    All Su-24Ms in Central Military District upgraded by Gefest.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  mack8 on Sat Oct 12, 2013 11:39 pm

    So right now there should be anywhere between 70 and almost 100 upgraded Su-24Ms?! That's 3 or 4 regiments, pretty decent numbers at least and still to grow. Now, unfortunately i haven't followed Su-24 upgrades (or Su-25 for that matter) too closely, i was just trying to figure out the differences between the Gefest and NAPO upgrades. The net is confusing as always but from what i can make out, the Gefest ones have the SVP-24 weapon system (together with new HUD, MFDs etc.), while the NAPO ones have the PNS-24M2 (also with new HUD, MFDs etc.), would that be correct? Any more details on the avionics differences?

    Also, what are they called in service, the NAPO ones are called Su-24M2, what about the Gefest ones? I've seen the Su-24SM designation in some places.

    Finally, any planned upgrades for the Su-24MRs ?

    Thanks again.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  mack8 on Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:34 pm

    Been trying to follow this further, and among other things, the situation seems to be like this: there are about 30 Su-34M2 (one source quoted 28), at Lipetsk and with 2 squadrons of 6988th air base in the Far East. Regarding the Gefest upgrade it seems the CMD has the 6980th base as Su-24M/MR operator, presumably the two squadrons of Ms have been upgraded so this makes at least 24 Gefest ones. Adding the 5-10 at Lipetsk, the minimum number is again  30 or over. However as TR1's sources say that there are about 50 Gefest upgraded Su-24M around, does this mean that a second unit will be equipped with upgraded examples soon? Any idea which one?
    Also, i could swear i've read yesterday somewhere about  50 Su-24s upgraded and 50 more coming, so that would be about 100 planned to be upgraded- not sure how accurate that info is of course.

    PS: Found it
    http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2012/10/25/russian-air-force-procurement-plans
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  TR1 on Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:31 pm

    http://russianplanes.net/id127976

    Nice photo. Note the Su-24s in the background are all armed with A2G missiles.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:58 am

    Nice... they look like Kh-25ML laser guided missiles.

    NATO called them Karen, the Air Standards Coordinating Committee called them AS-10.

    Very much similar to laser homing versions of Maverick... about 300kg, with a 90kg payload, semi active laser homing (ie laser spot homing), and about a 12km range.

    Nice to see the increase in guided weapons carried by Russian aircraft, though in the past if you saw one (air to ground) it was likely on an Su-24.


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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Stealthflanker on Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:16 pm

    TR1 wrote:http://russianplanes.net/id127976

    Nice photo. Note the Su-24s in the background are all armed with A2G missiles.

    Cool.. the Su-24MR.

    hmm anyway is there any news on the jammer variant of Su-24.. The Su-24MR ? Will they receive new jammer or they will remain "as is" till new jamming bird take over their role ?
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    Su-24's at the Shagol airbase have been equipped with Upaz refuelling pods

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:42 pm

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    TR1 wrote:http://russianplanes.net/id127976

    Nice photo. Note the Su-24s in the background are all armed with A2G missiles.

    Cool.. the Su-24MR.

    hmm anyway is there any news on the jammer variant of Su-24.. The Su-24MR ? Will they receive new jammer or they will remain "as is" till new jamming bird take over their role ?
    I think the electronic warfare variant of the aircraft that has previously been shown is called Su-24MP.
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  Sujoy on Fri May 16, 2014 10:19 am

    HOW THE Su-24 JAMMED THE US DONALD COOK  

    Rossiyskaya Gazeta wrote:On April 10, the Donald Cook, entered Black Sea waters and within 2 days, the Russian tactical bomber Su-24 “buzzed” the American destroyer. A few media outlets reported that Donald Cook’s crew was demoralised by this encounter and 27 American sailors resigned from the navy. What petrified the American crew so much?
    Donald Cook is a 4th generation fleet destroyer of the US Navy. Its key weapon is the Tomahawk cruise missile with flying range up to 2500 km, which can carry nuclear explosives. In standard and striking set-ups the vessel carries 56 or 96 such missiles correspondingly.

    The destroyer is equipped with the latest Aegis ballistic missile defence system military. Among other functions it can centralise the air defence forces of all the ships where it is installed in a common network, therefore allowing for tracking and shooting up hundreds of targets at the same time. Four huge standard radar aerials, which can substitute for a few ordinary radars, are located on the sides of the deck erection. About 50 intercept missiles of different classes are installed together with the Tomahawks in the universal launching installations on the bow and by the stern.

    The Su-24 Russian tactical bomber which approached the Donald Cook carried no bombs or missiles but a container with the Khibiny radio-electronic military system. Having approached the destroyer, Khibiny was use to switch off the American destroyer’s radar, battle control circuits and data exchange systems. In other words, it turned off the whole Aegis by remote control. After this, the Su-24 simulated a missile attack at the “blind and deaf” ship, and repeated the manoeuvre 12 times.
    When the Russian fighter left, the Donald Cook rushed to a Romanian port and never approached Russian waters again.

    Several systems at Russia’s disposal

    “To win a contemporary war, it is not enough to dominate in the air. It is necessary to secure an information advantage,” says Vladimir Balybin, Head of the research centre for radio-electronic battle and concealment efficiency. Apart from Khibiny, the Russian defence industry manufactures various types of equipment that could surprise active enemy units as well as criminals and terrorists.

    Airborne forces are being re-equipped with Infauna complexes. These are installed on armoured vehicles or other military vehicles and can locate and jam enemy’s radio connection in short wave and ultra-short wave frequencies, and “put out” remotely-controlled land-bombs. They will explode but only after the Russian troops have passed by and are far enough to be safe.

    Infauna has another function: the optic sensors installed on both sides of the vehicle spot flashes of discharges and command laying smokes-screen to protect convoys from fire.


    The Lesochek device fulfils the same functions as Infauna but is portable and can fit into a backpack or a suitcase.  It can be useful at important talks for protection against most advanced security services interception systems.

    The Borisoglebsk-2 is the core of the radio-electronic warfare of the tactical units of the Russian army. It comprises an automated command point and four types of jamming stations – they use a single algorithm to identify and jam the sources of hostile activity on the air.

    The Zhitel device locates and blocks satellite and mobile phones, subscription complexes of GPS-navigation. It proved efficient during the conflict in South Ossetia by misleading Georgian drone aircraft.
    Dmitry Rogozin, Russia’s deputy prime minister, has called for the reequipping of Russian strategic nuclear arms with the latest radio-electronic warfare devices.

    English Version (Abridged)

    http://in.rbth.com/economics/2014/05/15/russia_surges_ahead_in_radio-electronic_warfare_35247.html

    Russian Version

    http://www.rg.ru/2014/04/30/reb-site.html
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    Re: Su-24 Fencer

    Post  TR1 on Fri May 16, 2014 10:32 am

    Yeah that story is fairy tales.

    No Su-24, in metal, has ever used Khibiny.

    And even if it was a Su-34, the story still reads like a Russian Tom Clancy fantasy.

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