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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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    TheArmenian
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:06 pm

    11356 and 22350. Similar, yet so different.
    Old photos (just for comparison purposes).



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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:37 pm

    http://flotprom.ru/news/?ELEMENT_ID=155856

    5th frigate, the Admiral Istomin, will be laid down on November 15th.

    In other news the 4th 22350, Admiral Isakov, will be laid down (@ Severnaya of course) on the 14th.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:04 pm

    when the first ships will enter service?
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:00 pm

    George1 wrote:when the first ships will enter service?
    Good question, it is supposed to be launched this year. Have not see any photos recently.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Viktor on Fri Nov 15, 2013 2:21 pm

    5th 11356 "Admiral Istomin" for Russian navy lay down 

    The fifth frigate for the Russian Navy will lay in Kaliningrad

    Groundbreaking ceremony of the fifth patrol ship to the "Amber"

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:56 pm

    Good day.
    If you ask me, armament of the Grigorovich frigate is a little mystery, for me at least. Some time ago I stumbled upon one internet site:
    (sorry, can't post links now).

    In the Grigorovich frigate section, I had found several versions of this ship, but one particularly caught my eye. It was Project 11356.8, if I remember correctly. It had it's RBU 6000 launcher removed and had 8-cell UKSK installed in it's place (with a total of 16 launch cells Smile  ). There was even a profile drawing there one could clearly see 4 VLS rows. Trouble is, I forgot this site for several months, and when I came to check again, all information about this particular ship version was gone, and I was unable to find it neither in English, nor Russian version of the site. Since I'm certainly not an expert here, I'd like to ask, could space provisions for RBU 6000 allow installation of UKSK in Pr. 11356 frigate? Please mind, that the former system hasn't been mounted on any new Russian warships, I'm not sure, if domestic version is still even in production.
    Any information would be appreciated Smile
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  runaway on Tue Nov 19, 2013 6:59 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Good day.
    If you ask me, armament of the Grigorovich frigate is a little mystery, for me at least. Some time ago I stumbled upon one internet site:
    (sorry, can't post links now).

    In the Grigorovich frigate section, I had found several versions of this ship, but one particularly caught my eye. It was Project 11356.8, if I remember correctly. It had it's RBU 6000 launcher removed and had 8-cell UKSK installed in it's place (with a total of 16 launch cells Smile  ). There was even a profile drawing there one could clearly see 4 VLS rows. Trouble is, I forgot this site for several months, and when I came to check again, all information about this particular ship version was gone, and I was unable to find it neither in English, nor Russian version of the site. Since I'm certainly not an expert here, I'd like to ask, could space provisions for RBU 6000 allow installation of UKSK in Pr. 11356 frigate? Please mind, that the former system hasn't been mounted on any new Russian warships, I'm not sure, if domestic version is still even in production.
    Any information would be appreciated Smile
    Compared to the more advanced Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov class, the more conventional Project 11356M Admiral Grigorovich class is a transitional class based on a proven design that is cheaper and can be quickly inducted to make up for depleting numbers in the Russian Navy.
    I doubt they can make room for an additional UKSK by removing RBU6000, which is a good and proven system, they are mounted on Gepard and Talwar class as well. Gorshkov class has 324mm torpedo tubes for Paket ASW system instead.



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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Tue Nov 19, 2013 8:57 pm

    runaway wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Good day.
    If you ask me, armament of the Grigorovich frigate is a little mystery, for me at least. Some time ago I stumbled upon one internet site:
    (sorry, can't post links now).

    In the Grigorovich frigate section, I had found several versions of this ship, but one particularly caught my eye. It was Project 11356.8, if I remember correctly. It had it's RBU 6000 launcher removed and had 8-cell UKSK installed in it's place (with a total of 16 launch cells Smile  ). There was even a profile drawing there one could clearly see 4 VLS rows. Trouble is, I forgot this site for several months, and when I came to check again, all information about this particular ship version was gone, and I was unable to find it neither in English, nor Russian version of the site. Since I'm certainly not an expert here, I'd like to ask, could space provisions for RBU 6000 allow installation of UKSK in Pr. 11356 frigate? Please mind, that the former system hasn't been mounted on any new Russian warships, I'm not sure, if domestic version is still even in production.
    Any information would be appreciated Smile
    Compared to the more advanced Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov class, the more conventional Project 11356M Admiral Grigorovich class is a transitional class based on a proven design that is cheaper and can be quickly inducted to make up for depleting numbers in the Russian Navy.
    I doubt they can make room for an additional UKSK by removing RBU6000, which is a good and proven system, they are mounted on Gepard and Talwar class as well. Gorshkov class has 324mm torpedo tubes for Paket ASW system instead.


    Sorry, but I have to disagree. At least as it appears, replacement of RBU 6000 with UKSK is neither costly, nor time consuming, for example, it looks like it wouldn't require ANY hull design changes at all, and only minimal changes of weapons bay. Wouldn't a two times increase in firepower justify a little cost increase Cool ?
    Also, while I agree about RBU 6000 prowess, it's actual effectiveness leaves a lot to be desired. I believe, that given it's range and accuracy limitations, it, in theory, performs better than guided torpedoes only in shallow littoral environments. And modern advances in sensor sophistication make even that advantage diminish gradually. And who said that Talwar couldn't employ Paket Smile ? If anything, it would bring Grigorovich even closer to Gorshkov in terms of capability, not to mention simplified logistics.
    Also, as a side note. Didn't Dagestan light frigate got it's RBU 6000 deleted in favour of UKSK launcher?
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:55 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Good day.
    If you ask me, armament of the Grigorovich frigate is a little mystery, for me at least. Some time ago I stumbled upon one internet site:
    (sorry, can't post links now).

    In the Grigorovich frigate section, I had found several versions of this ship, but one particularly caught my eye. It was Project 11356.8, if I remember correctly. It had it's RBU 6000 launcher removed and had 8-cell UKSK installed in it's place (with a total of 16 launch cells Smile  ). There was even a profile drawing there one could clearly see 4 VLS rows. Trouble is, I forgot this site for several months, and when I came to check again, all information about this particular ship version was gone, and I was unable to find it neither in English, nor Russian version of the site. Since I'm certainly not an expert here, I'd like to ask, could space provisions for RBU 6000 allow installation of UKSK in Pr. 11356 frigate? Please mind, that the former system hasn't been mounted on any new Russian warships, I'm not sure, if domestic version is still even in production.
    Any information would be appreciated Smile
    Basically, we don't know. The Grigorovich has had several charts/layout photos, and there is little clarity if it has RBU, two UKSK modules, or even VLS Shtil.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:29 pm

    TR1, thanks for reply Smile  Could you, if possible, provide some links describing the versions of the frigate you mentioned?
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:28 am

    http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-163.html

    Good general info here, as you can see RBU is on all the plates, so I think we are stuck with it.

    Some other "plans" seen:

    http://forumimage.ru/show/2073947
    http://forumimage.ru/show/3805897

    Can't find any models with two UKSK modules at the moment...
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:42 am

    Please mind, that the former system hasn't been mounted on any new Russian warships, I'm not sure, if domestic version is still even in production.
    The RBU-6000 has several roles including anti sub, anti torpedo, and anti diver uses, for which it carries large numbers of rockets with extensive under deck ammo handling systems to move and load those rockets from where they are stored to the launcher.

    I rather suspect the UKSK takes up rather more space than a single RBU-6000 launcher and probably takes up most of the space below it too.

    Paket has mostly taken over the role of anti torpedo system, and the UKSK carries anti sub missiles too. The hand held anti saboteur launchers and some pedestal mounted rocket launchers likely would replace the anti diver role too so RBU-6000 has largely become obsolete.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:21 pm


    Thank you. Actually I had found version with two UKSKs Smile 
    (russian-ships. info )

    Unfortunately, this was removed for some reason.
    It would seem that placement of UKSK in RBU6000 place would pose very little difficulty. After all, isn't it exactly what happened with frigate "Dagestan" ?
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:00 pm

    Yes I think if they wanted to they could easily slip in another UKSK module, but the whole point of the class is to rapidly build numbers with minimal modification and cost.
    It does take a lot of underdeck space though.

    Honestly I am much more worried regarding VLS Shtil than keeping the RBU.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:23 pm

    TR1 wrote:Yes I think if they wanted to they could easily slip in another UKSK module, but the whole point of the class is to rapidly build numbers with minimal modification and cost.
    It does take a lot of underdeck space though.

    Honestly I am much more worried regarding VLS Shtil than keeping the RBU.
    Well, Russians already have some experience with Redut VLS SAMs, don't they? And I believe, 9M96 missiles are not that much different from buk ones, size-wise. If anything, Shtil could even be as little as Redut itself, just modified to accept another missile.
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    Project 11356

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:56 am

    I hardly think the land forces will go for vertically tube launched Shtil-1 and the Navy sticks with the heavier, more expensive, and more complicated single arm launcher.

    The vertical launch version does not need to move the missiles around and the only moving part is the roof hatch.

    With the arm launcher you need several rotary missile holders to hold the missiles below decks ready to be aligned with the vertical missile lifts to raise the missiles to be loaded on to the missile launch arm... plus the arm itself...

    You also need space around the under deck stored missiles so they can be manually inspected to ensure they are OK.

    With the Shtil-1 launcher every missile will be wired up to the self diagnostic systems and ready to launch and ready to check 24/7 without needing below deck access to the missiles.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  xeno on Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:16 pm

    As per the discussion here
    http://forums.airbase.ru/2013/12/t59529,79--storozhevye-korabli-proekta-11356.7976.html
    Russian 11356 may not have 36 units for VLS as I expected, but only 24 due to limited space.
    And it is rumoured there will be a second batch 11356 (6) for Pacific fleet.
    Tragedy...if both were true.
    I understand 22350 is more expensive for building and still has many problems to be settled, however from POV of long term 22350 is much more promising.
    Technical problems will be settled finally. Besides you even pay 200 crew members on a 11356, while a 22350 only has 186.
    And just a few weeks ago, Russian generals were advocating to reduce the types of ships RN were operating...
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:32 pm

    First of all, that thread is speculation. Wind changes every other month on Balancers....first they think it will have old Shtil arm, now VLS tubes.
    If it has 24 VLS cells then I will be a happy man, because I am still worried old Shtil launcher will be used.

    Regarding further batches, speculation as well. It might happen, but they will order a trio at first, not another six.
    I would rather see Yantar be brought on to 22350 production, but they need to calculate if it is speedier and cheaper to just make 11356s. The navy has many ships ending their lives soon, 11356 is better than nothing.

    Plus I think Severnaya is pressuring to remain the only 22350 producer :/
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:29 pm

    I hope it is the vertical launch Shtil.
    A good photo of the missile and launcher:

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:45 pm

    http://www.wrk.ru/forums/attachment.php?item=366584&download=2&type=.jpg

    Good news, apparently it is confirmed 11356 will have the same gun as 20380, with modern shaping.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Viktor on Thu Dec 26, 2013 3:11 pm

    TR1 wrote:http://www.wrk.ru/forums/attachment.php?item=366584&download=2&type=.jpg

    Good news, apparently it is confirmed 11356 will have the same gun as 20380, with modern shaping.

    And you can bet it will have Shtil-1 VLS with 36 cells  Very Happy

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  xeno on Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:05 pm

    VLS is certain, no worry about it.
    The problem is how many units. I was very sure it should be 36. Hope those guys on Airbase were wrong.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  runaway on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:09 pm

    xeno wrote:
    And it is rumoured there will be a second batch 11356 (6) for Pacific fleet.
    Tragedy...if both were true.
    I understand 22350 is more expensive for building and still has many problems to be settled, however from POV of long term 22350 is much more promising.

    The Admiral Grigorovich-class frigate is a capable and modern ship, for me it would be good news if they order 3-6 for PF. Along with Gorshkov frigates and Gremyashchy corvettes, the have a foundation for a very potent surface force. A few DDG´s and 1-2 slavas and 1 Kirov upgraded and they will be second to none.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:09 am

    I don't see in what way Project 11356 will be a good thing ,(other than better than what they replace) ,
    since its system of defense as i understand is medium range Defense Sams with ~50km range more or less.. Based on buk system a system that is very good.. but not so good if used without a long range defense system. The probability it will shot down a plane with so small range is next to Zero. Better be very stealthy if want to ever get close to a plane.Since No Airforce today need to get that close to engage a warship.Modern Airforce today no longer need to fight at visual distance. Harpoon today have a range of 120km which is not a lot but for sure much better range than the defenses of this new frigate.

    Just 10 x cheap F-16s armed with up to 4 antiships missiles Penguin/Harpoons with 60km to 120km range will be enough to overwhelm the defenses of this Project 11356. and leave the place without a single scratch on its paint.since the warship engagement range is very small and very limited.  It will be required another warShip with Better Air defenses to engage the combat planes attacking this frigate. Not very impressive.

    On paper looks like a fine Frigate ,but in practice it will be very vulnerable to Any Third World nation Airforce. that not even have a navy.In time of war ,i do not see this Frigate safe on any place . Any small group F-15 or F-16  will sink it in no time by just overwhelming its defenses.   Perhaps its Role will be only to shield a bigger ship from missile attacks that will not bad.,but the Frigate still will not be able to fight back if attacked by a a group of combat jets.. Will have been far better that all frigates are based on Admiral Admiral Gorshkov-class Project 22350 ,(if they still insist with building a frigate) ,instead of any Project 11356 ,because those will have a chance to fight back ,specially if indeed they will be supplied with Naval S-400 defenses. So the warship not just sit like a duck ,just defending from missiles and instead fight back the combat planes..  But it remain to be seen if Gorshkov Sam defenses will support long range missiles like 9M96E2 (120km) or any 48H6E3/48H6E2 -(250km/200km) or the mighty 40N6 (400km) range defense.
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:39 am

    Of course you can say a single frigate is not well armed and that an enemy air force could overwhelm it.

    The point is that this single frigate will never operate on its own... it is part of the Sigma defence network that includes satellite radar data and the data from other Russian navy platforms.

    A bit like saying two BUK batteries are vulnerable to enemy air power.

    They certainly are, but they are also able to defend themselves from any weapon fired at them, which means the resources needed to defeat them greatly exceed the amount of resources any country except the US could mobilise to attack them.

    Modern Airforce today no longer need to fight at visual distance. Harpoon today have a range of 120km which is not a lot but for sure much better range than the defenses of this new frigate.

    The Frigate will be operating with destroyers and perhaps cruisers which will both be able to engage planes before they can launch weapons... meanwhile the Frigate can shoot down Harpoons all day long.

    Just 10 x cheap F-16s armed with up to 4 antiships missiles Penguin/Harpoons with 60km to 120km range will be enough to overwhelm the defenses of this Project 11356. and leave the place without a single scratch on its paint.since the warship engagement range is very small and very limited. It will be required another warShip with Better Air defenses to engage the combat planes attacking this frigate. Not very impressive.

    IT IS A FRIGATE. Next you will be complaining that their Corvettes are not safe from third world air forces either.

    Please tell us which western FRIGATE design is better armed?

    Most of them have even less impressive air defence capability... many don't even have a large calibre gun.

    Do you not appreciate the concept... not every rifleman is a sniper. Sometimes you just need riflemen.

    So the warship not just sit like a duck ,just defending from missiles and instead fight back the combat planes..

    A sitting duck is unable to defend itself. I don't know of any Russian vessels not able to defend themselves.

    It is like you are complaining that MANPADS can't kill targets above 10K metres altitude... the purpose of a frigate is not to turn back an enemy air force, just like the purpose of Igla is not to bring down B-2s and AWACS aircraft.


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