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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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    xeno
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  xeno on Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:05 pm

    VLS is certain, no worry about it.
    The problem is how many units. I was very sure it should be 36. Hope those guys on Airbase were wrong.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 8:27 pm

    lets hope that first ships will be delivered this year and we will see the armament on them at last

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  runaway on Sun Jan 12, 2014 7:09 pm

    xeno wrote:
    And it is rumoured there will be a second batch 11356 (6) for Pacific fleet.
    Tragedy...if both were true.
    I understand 22350 is more expensive for building and still has many problems to be settled, however from POV of long term 22350 is much more promising.

    The Admiral Grigorovich-class frigate is a capable and modern ship, for me it would be good news if they order 3-6 for PF. Along with Gorshkov frigates and Gremyashchy corvettes, the have a foundation for a very potent surface force. A few DDG´s and 1-2 slavas and 1 Kirov upgraded and they will be second to none.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:09 am

    I don't see in what way Project 11356 will be a good thing ,(other than better than what they replace) ,
    since its system of defense as i understand is medium range Defense Sams with ~50km range more or less.. Based on buk system a system that is very good.. but not so good if used without a long range defense system. The probability it will shot down a plane with so small range is next to Zero. Better be very stealthy if want to ever get close to a plane.Since No Airforce today need to get that close to engage a warship.Modern Airforce today no longer need to fight at visual distance. Harpoon today have a range of 120km which is not a lot but for sure much better range than the defenses of this new frigate.

    Just 10 x cheap F-16s armed with up to 4 antiships missiles Penguin/Harpoons with 60km to 120km range will be enough to overwhelm the defenses of this Project 11356. and leave the place without a single scratch on its paint.since the warship engagement range is very small and very limited.  It will be required another warShip with Better Air defenses to engage the combat planes attacking this frigate. Not very impressive.

    On paper looks like a fine Frigate ,but in practice it will be very vulnerable to Any Third World nation Airforce. that not even have a navy.In time of war ,i do not see this Frigate safe on any place . Any small group F-15 or F-16  will sink it in no time by just overwhelming its defenses.   Perhaps its Role will be only to shield a bigger ship from missile attacks that will not bad.,but the Frigate still will not be able to fight back if attacked by a a group of combat jets.. Will have been far better that all frigates are based on Admiral Admiral Gorshkov-class Project 22350 ,(if they still insist with building a frigate) ,instead of any Project 11356 ,because those will have a chance to fight back ,specially if indeed they will be supplied with Naval S-400 defenses. So the warship not just sit like a duck ,just defending from missiles and instead fight back the combat planes..  But it remain to be seen if Gorshkov Sam defenses will support long range missiles like 9M96E2 (120km) or any 48H6E3/48H6E2 -(250km/200km) or the mighty 40N6 (400km) range defense.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:39 am

    Of course you can say a single frigate is not well armed and that an enemy air force could overwhelm it.

    The point is that this single frigate will never operate on its own... it is part of the Sigma defence network that includes satellite radar data and the data from other Russian navy platforms.

    A bit like saying two BUK batteries are vulnerable to enemy air power.

    They certainly are, but they are also able to defend themselves from any weapon fired at them, which means the resources needed to defeat them greatly exceed the amount of resources any country except the US could mobilise to attack them.

    Modern Airforce today no longer need to fight at visual distance. Harpoon today have a range of 120km which is not a lot but for sure much better range than the defenses of this new frigate.

    The Frigate will be operating with destroyers and perhaps cruisers which will both be able to engage planes before they can launch weapons... meanwhile the Frigate can shoot down Harpoons all day long.

    Just 10 x cheap F-16s armed with up to 4 antiships missiles Penguin/Harpoons with 60km to 120km range will be enough to overwhelm the defenses of this Project 11356. and leave the place without a single scratch on its paint.since the warship engagement range is very small and very limited. It will be required another warShip with Better Air defenses to engage the combat planes attacking this frigate. Not very impressive.

    IT IS A FRIGATE. Next you will be complaining that their Corvettes are not safe from third world air forces either.

    Please tell us which western FRIGATE design is better armed?

    Most of them have even less impressive air defence capability... many don't even have a large calibre gun.

    Do you not appreciate the concept... not every rifleman is a sniper. Sometimes you just need riflemen.

    So the warship not just sit like a duck ,just defending from missiles and instead fight back the combat planes..

    A sitting duck is unable to defend itself. I don't know of any Russian vessels not able to defend themselves.

    It is like you are complaining that MANPADS can't kill targets above 10K metres altitude... the purpose of a frigate is not to turn back an enemy air force, just like the purpose of Igla is not to bring down B-2s and AWACS aircraft.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  medo on Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:00 pm

    As I know, Grigorovich will have Shtil VLS and I think in VLS will be Buk-M3 missiles, which have range of 70 km. And having UKSK with Kalibr and Oniks cruise missiles, this frigate is still very potent ship.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jan 16, 2014 4:24 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    IT IS A FRIGATE. Next you will be complaining that their Corvettes are not safe from third world air forces either.

    Please tell us which western FRIGATE design is better armed?

    Most of them have even less impressive air defence capability... many don't even have a large calibre gun.


    NATO Frigates sucks indeed..
    But they can afford that luxury ,since US aircraft carriers with an airforce defend them. Russia only aircraft carrier or Kirov class
    cannot be in every place. With the Project 22350 the frigate could have a bit more freedom to travel without a Bigger Ship .

    Hate they didn't went for a much stronger Admiral Gorshkov-class frigate.
    and to make things worse they planning 6 Project 11356M frigates..  and only 4 Gorshkov class.  Neutral 


    Anyway..
    What is there any information on Project 22350 about the missiles the Sam defenses Gorhkov class will support?
    The info i have seen shows 9m96D missiles with 120k range.. Wondering if there any information released
    if  Redut VLS cells in that frigate could be equipped with 40N6 very long range 400km missiles ,48N6DM with 250km range
    or any similar..and whether if the naval version of those very long range missiles exist at all.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:48 am

    But they can afford that luxury ,since US aircraft carriers with an airforce defend them. Russia only aircraft carrier or Kirov class

    Russian Navy uses Sigma... every vessel is part of the network using information to make decisions and contributing data and weapons... it is better than a carrier. A Frigate will rarely leave Russian waters so will have Su-35s, Mig-35s, and PAK FAs in support most of the time.

    Hate they didn't went for a much stronger Admiral Gorshkov-class frigate.
    and to make things worse they planning 6 Project 11356M frigates.. and only 4 Gorshkov class.

    It is exactly the same as with the Lada vs Kilo situation... they are producing the tried and tested easy to produce model while still producing the more expensive and more capable models. It gives them more breathing space and reduces the pressure on the more capable vessel as the new easy to produce models are still very good and capable vessels and the Russian Navy needs them in service because they are far better than nothing.

    The point is that if they went for the new vessels only they will likely have 5 Gorshkov vessels or 4 Ladas in service by 2020. The way they are doing this means they will have rather more vessels in service rather quicker than if they only built the new expensive vessels.

    if Redut VLS cells in that frigate could be equipped with 40N6 very long range 400km missiles ,48N6DM with 250km range
    or any similar..and whether if the naval version of those very long range missiles exist at all.

    Do you think they will have 2,500km range cruise missiles and 120km range SAMs on their upgraded Kirovs?

    The UKSK launchers are standard and the Redut launchers will also be standard too. What you load them with is up to the platform itself and the mission, but the whole point of standardisation is that they are all the same from corvette to carrier. Otherwise it doesn't make sense.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GJ Flanker on Fri Jan 17, 2014 5:58 pm

    The Gorshkov is much better than the Grigorovich, that is clear, but like Garry said not only quality counts for the Russians but also quantity.

    At this moment the Grigorovich class has the most advanced equipment on board (of surface ships), only the Gorshkov has better.
    All other, older but still great russian ships have obsolete electronics. The Grigorovich is an important modernization step for the RuNavy.

    With the Grigorovich the Russians will have 10 to 11 new modern frigates by 2020. Just like the Su-30SM, because of big orders (Su-30MKI/MKA/MKM) and little bit older equipment, is much cheaper than the Su-35S, the Grigorovich (6 Talwar ordered by India) is much cheaper than the Gorshkov.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 7:44 pm

    Why all the fuss?  Smile 

    Compared to Gorshkov, Grigorovich frigates are expected to have the same SSM capability, and, likely, the same ASW capability. The only disadvantages would be weaker SAM battery (still comparable to all new NATO frigates) and COGAG propulsion instead of more modern CODAG. Stealth features are similar, and internal spaces are probably similar too.
    So, again, why dismiss this frigate so quickly? I think that actually this is an excellent ship Smile

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 8:54 pm

    Grigorovich frigates are enough for black sea fleet. Their only opposition force are old O.Hazard Perry frigates of turkish navy.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:02 pm

    George1 wrote:Grigorovich frigates are enough for black sea fleet. Their only opposition force are old O.Hazard Perry frigates of turkish navy.

    Yes, but only black sea. If it'd be deployed in the baltic, it could be destroyed in no time by our mighty minesweeping battleships of doom. lol1 

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:04 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Why all the fuss?  Smile 

    Compared to Gorshkov, Grigorovich frigates are expected to have the same SSM capability, and, likely, the same ASW capability. The only disadvantages would be weaker SAM battery (still comparable to all new NATO frigates) and COGAG propulsion instead of more modern CODAG. Stealth features are similar, and internal spaces are probably similar too.
    So, again, why dismiss this frigate so quickly? I think that actually this is an excellent ship Smile

    ASW is certainly inferior.

    Gorshkov has huge, 1155 sized sonar bulb, and Paket.

    Regarding UKSK, 22350 has 16 tubes, Grigorovich might only have 8.

    Gorshkov seems to have much more emphasis on stealth shaping, certainly designers mentioned it was part of planning (never heard anything like that for 11356).

    As long as 11356 has VLS Shtil I will be content though.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:09 pm

    TR1 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:Why all the fuss?  Smile 

    Compared to Gorshkov, Grigorovich frigates are expected to have the same SSM capability, and, likely, the same ASW capability. The only disadvantages would be weaker SAM battery (still comparable to all new NATO frigates) and COGAG propulsion instead of more modern CODAG. Stealth features are similar, and internal spaces are probably similar too.
    So, again, why dismiss this frigate so quickly? I think that actually this is an excellent ship Smile

    ASW is certainly inferior.

    Gorshkov has huge, 1155 sized sonar bulb, and Paket.

    Regarding UKSK, 22350 has 16 tubes, Grigorovich might only have 8.

    Gorshkov seems to have much more emphasis on stealth shaping, certainly designers mentioned it was part of planning (never heard anything like that for 11356).

    As long as 11356 has VLS Shtil I will be content though.


    How? 1155 sonar would sink it quicker than drunk sailors could  lol1 
    Go weighs 4500tonnes. Gr weighs 4000tonnes, so it's fair to assume that sonar apertures may be the same. And until Lomonosov's ghost develops AESA sonar, there's not much you can do about sensitivity either  Laughing 

    And about Uksk. I'd already mentioned that version with two launchers was developed.


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:13 pm

    Just compare size...also I read confirmation on forums, the sonar is essentially a modern variant of the 1155's set.

    Two UKSK modules was rumored, but far from confirmed. Last photos from ship plaques indicate it will probably only have 1.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:22 pm

    TR1 wrote:Just compare size...also I read confirmation on forums, the sonar is essentially a modern variant of the 1155's set.

    Two UKSK modules was rumored, but far from confirmed. Last photos from ship plaques indicate it will probably only have 1.

    So, you say that "gr" is inferior to "go" in size. That's just rude  dunno 

    1uksk is possible indeed, but what's the point of mounting rbu? i mean, not a single new ship has them.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:29 pm

    Hehe, well just look @ that massive bulb:

    http://img.ntv.ru/home/news/20101029/fregat.jpg

    Size isn't everything, but it DOES matter Wink . I am trying to find specifics of the post I mentioned, but ofc I can't right now.

    Speaking of bulb sizes, 20380 also has a very hefty installation for the size of the ship.

    From the Indian ships, the bulb is much less prominent than the 22350s. Of course construction choices weigh in, you can make a unit more flush with the hull, but I maintain the 22350 has a much more serious unit.

    Honestly I am a fan of RBU, especially with guided rounds, but Paket would be better. Whole point of these ships is minimal modification from Talwar, so there you go I guess.
    Also why I am afraid first batch will have regular Shtil.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 9:37 pm

    To TR1:
    Well, I am not able to make the exact comparison, probably you're right.
    Talwar or something before launch:
    http://en.ria.ru/images/17605/32/176053299.jpg
    Also:
    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/TCMb90yG7HI/AAAAAAAAKtE/Z1o6OokuD70/s1600/Photo%2B2-735034.jpg
    About RBU, I was under the impression, that it's solely for coastal environments, coz early torps were too dumb for that.
    But new ones are much more sophisticated, so operating there shouldn't be a problem anymore. Hence. rbu is not needed anymore, IMO.


    And about BUKs, I'd doubt that russkies would sell monkey models for themselves. That's like driving F-1 car and go to NASCAR. Everybody will just make fun of you.

    Besides, there's plenty of experience designing all kinds of VLS, from Tor, to Redut. Unless the R/D department is run by Anna Chapman, creating vertical buk should be pretty easy.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  zino on Fri Jan 17, 2014 11:59 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:Why all the fuss?  Smile 

    Compared to Gorshkov, Grigorovich frigates are expected to have the same SSM capability, and, likely, the same ASW capability. The only disadvantages would be weaker SAM battery (still comparable to all new NATO frigates) and COGAG propulsion instead of more modern CODAG. Stealth features are similar, and internal spaces are probably similar too.
    So, again, why dismiss this frigate so quickly? I think that actually this is an excellent ship Smile

    I don't have a clue about ships. Why CODAG is supposed to be more modern than COGAG? Cruising engines of 11356 seem more powerful (ratio with displacement) than the diesel of 22350 and should provide a better cruising speed. Or not?  confused

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:03 am

    Also why I am afraid first batch will have regular Shtil.

    Regular Shtil should actually be more expensive to install and maintain and operate than the new vertical launch Shtil-1 as the latter only has roof hatches for moving parts.

    In comparison the Shtil has a fully articulated arm launcher and several rotary magazines below decks to align the missiles in storage with the lifts to raise the missiles to the arm launcher.

    The Kirov has had vertical launch tubes for decades so it should actually be easier to install the Shtil-1 than the standard Shtil.

    The combination of Kashtan-M and Shtil-1 makes it probably one of the best defended Frigates available today.

    Two Kashtans means 4 gatlings and 64 missiles, plus 36 70km range SAMs in the Shtil-1 system. The 100mm gun would also be useful with proximity fused ammo against low and slow flying threats.

    What Frigate is better armed than that?


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GJ Flanker on Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:43 am

    I think they will use the 9M317M Shtil-1 (SA-N-12B Grizzly) missile, which has an range of 50 km.
    The 70 km range missile is the 9M317M3 Buk-M3 (SA-17C Grizzly).
    Maybe, and I hope, they will use the 9M317M3 missile!

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:47 pm

    To zino:
    Yes, turbines are more powerful but for cruising engines power is not needed, so at usual speeds efficiency is better with codag propulsion, while max speed is pretty much the same anyway.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:40 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    What Frigate is better armed than that?



    Clearly you dont see the problem.  No 


    Is Irrelevant which frigate is better. It will not even matter if NATO have no frigates at all to compare.
    Is not a vis vs vis competition. NATO will not Care about their Frigates being weaker. and don't need to show a frigate at all.
    if you RUssia bring a Frigate, NATO will bring what they have.. Destroyers and Cruisers with at least 1 aircraft carrier.
    and will stay away of Oniks Range and use its Navl Airforce for offense.

    US navy not even have Frigates.. don't know why the comparison. irrelevant that is the best frigate.

    This means that the Grigorovich-class frigate will be limited on its operations.
    Cannot operate without a stronger ship escort that can defend the frigate from land airforce or aircraft carrier airforce.
    Because it will be sniped by any combat jet and could not fight back. So it will be limited by Coastal patrols
    to be defended by Air Force or escorted by an aircraft carrier or a Kirov.

    This also means the 6x Grigorovich class they will build will not be able be used to help in the defense of any allies away of Russian Territory unless is escorted by Bigger warships with S-300s or better defenses. Because will be overwhelmed by Any small airforce.

    In case of any war.. NATO naval airforce- any third world country airforce will deal with Russian navy limitation against Airforce.
    and Use their combat jets against Russia navy.. Major enemy of Russian NAVY will not be NATO warships but Combat jets .

    They will exploit Russian weakness in airspace defense on its navy. Kirov cannot be in all parts at same time. Neither its Aircraft carrier.

    IF Russia build only Gorshov class frigates , instead of just 4 they could build 2-3 more and have Frigates that could
    Be used to lead battle groups ,With strong Sam defense capabilities. 2-3 Gorshov could be used as a replacement of 1 Kirov Class.
    And allow Russia to use their Frigates as Lead Ships and Project Power world wide.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:42 pm

    i insist that Gorshkov class is between frigate and destroyer

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:47 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    What Frigate is better armed than that?



    Clearly you dont see the problem.  No 


    Is Irrelevant which frigate is better. It will not even matter if NATO have no frigates at all to compare.
    Is not a vis vs vis competition. NATO will not Care about their Frigates being weaker. and don't need to show a frigate at all.
    if you RUssia bring a Frigate, NATO will bring  what they have.. Destroyers and Cruisers with at least 1 aircraft carrier.
    and will stay away of Oniks Range and use its Navl Airforce for offense.

    US navy not even have Frigates.. don't know why the comparison. irrelevant that is the best frigate.

    This means that the Grigorovich-class frigate will be limited on its operations.
    Cannot operate without a stronger ship escort that can defend the frigate from land airforce or aircraft carrier airforce.
    Because it will be sniped by any combat jet and could not fight back. So it will be limited by Coastal patrols
    to be defended by Air Force or escorted by an aircraft carrier or a Kirov.

    This also means the 6x Grigorovich class they will build will not be able be used to help in the defense of any allies away of Russian Territory unless is escorted by Bigger warships with S-300s or better defenses. Because will be overwhelmed by Any small airforce.

    In case of any war.. NATO naval airforce- any third world country airforce will deal with Russian navy limitation against Airforce.
    and Use their combat jets against Russia navy..  Major enemy of Russian NAVY will not be NATO warships but Combat jets .

    They will exploit Russian weakness in airspace defense on its navy. Kirov cannot be in all parts at same time. Neither its Aircraft carrier.

    IF Russia build  only Gorshov class frigates , instead of just 4 they could build 2-3 more and have Frigates that could
    Be used to lead battle groups ,With strong Sam defense capabilities. 2-3 Gorshov could be used as a replacement of 1 Kirov Class.
    And allow Russia to use their Frigates as Lead Ships and Project Power world wide.


    OK, first, Russian naval doctrine is defensive, so in WW3 you can bet, that you won't see Russian SAGs contesting GIUK gap, unfortunately.

    And second, ships tend to be vulnerable against aircraft, and that's not limited to "gr" frigate only.
    Send 3 squadrons of F-18s against the Kirov, and you'll see it in flames.

    Equally, send 3 squadrons of Su-30s against the Ticonderoga, and you'll see it in flames too.


    To George1:
    Yes. You may actually call gorshie "the pocket destroyer".

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