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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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    Viktor

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Viktor on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:21 pm

    Austin wrote:The current Krivak being built for Russia , similar to Indian Talwar class frigate , Will it have a Single Arm Shtil-1 launcher or VLS Shtil.

    What is the difference expected beween Indian and Russian frigate.

    Yup, VLS Shtil is confirmed. Im not aware about other differences and as those ships are ordered as stop gap measure.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:28 am

    KASHTAN performance v/s RAM

    And Naval Pantsir-S1 is able to engage 4 targets at once starting at 20km range... so four kills clustered in the 18-20km zone, four more at presumably the 12-14km zone, then assuming 12 missiles ready to fire four more targets hit at the 6-8km zone based on the Kashtans rate of engagement with missiles, followed by looking at the rate of engagement for the guns a further kill at 3km and at 2km and then likely at 1.2km and possibly at 500m because the guns become more effective as the target gets closer.

    That would equate to about 16 targets...

    What is the difference expected beween Indian and Russian frigate.

    Where possible the Russian vessels will likely try to use common components standard on their other new vessels while maintaining low risk.

    This means that the problems with Redut means Shtil will be used but it will be vertical launch Shtil-1 rather than the old arm launcher.

    Vertical launch tubes offer greater rate of fire and fewer moving parts and simplified design and greater missile capacity with less complication.

    Austin

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:27 am

    Viktor wrote:
    Austin wrote:The current Krivak being built for Russia , similar to Indian Talwar class frigate , Will it have a Single Arm Shtil-1 launcher or VLS Shtil.

    What is the difference expected beween Indian and Russian frigate.

    Yup, VLS Shtil is confirmed. Im not aware about other differences and as those ships are ordered as stop gap measure.  

    Any idea how many VLS launchers for Shtil-1 on Russian Krivak ? Any pictures of the launchers ?

    Also any news of Brahmos getting inducted on Russian ships ?
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:10 am

    I am still very worried it might be non VLS shtil. Hopefully it has the expanded UKSK numbers though (16), as the plaque seemed to indicate.
    Grigorovich will be launched this year, so we will know hopefully any month now.

    xeno

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  xeno on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:01 pm

    Austin wrote:
    Viktor wrote:
    Austin wrote:The current Krivak being built for Russia , similar to Indian Talwar class frigate , Will it have a Single Arm Shtil-1 launcher or VLS Shtil.

    What is the difference expected beween Indian and Russian frigate.

    Yup, VLS Shtil is confirmed. Im not aware about other differences and as those ships are ordered as stop gap measure.  

    Any idea how many VLS launchers for Shtil-1 on Russian Krivak ? Any pictures of the launchers ?

    Also any news of Brahmos getting inducted on Russian ships ?

    36 VLS Shtil on Russian 11356. You guys don't worry about Russian version 11356, it is a low end (of course still very powerfull) compared to 22350 and it will be fine. BTW, the upper structure of 11356 will also be modified(Mast etc).

    And no Brahmos on Russian ships, yes, I know Indian friends are complaining Russians not purchasing these missile as per previous arrangement of agreement when the Joint-venture was setup.
    Because Brahmos has max range <290km to meeting the exportation law, unless Russians are willing to buy these missiles and upgrade them to Onix standard (max range >300km), which is very stupid from the points of view of economy and technology.
    Even Russians do buy some, which is very unlikely, it is to pacify the complaint from Indian friends for political purpose.

    Notio

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Notio on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:10 pm

    It would seem to me that according to this pic the first ship, Admiral Grigorovich, will have the arm, but starting with Admiral Essen it is replaced by the VLS. I guess we will find out soon enough.
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    GarryB

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    The current Krivak being built for Russia , similar to Indian Talwar class frigate , Will it have a Single Arm Shtil-1 launcher or VLS Shtil.

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:17 am

    An important point to keep in mind with the vertical launch Shtil-1 is that it should take up the same space as the arm launcher but not require the arm launcher nor the under deck rotating missile handling equipment that lifts missiles and places them into position to be lifted up to the arm launcher ready to fire.

    The bin launchers are much simpler and much cheaper and much more energy efficient as all missiles are ready to launch and don't have to be physically moved into position for launch.

    They should actually be cheaper to install and will likely be offered as an upgrade for existing arm launcher users and the ongoing savings in maintainence should result in savings on maintainence and reliability in operation.

    An Arm launcher is a single point of failure that can make all the missiles stored unusable.
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:37 pm

    http://s001.radikal.ru/i196/1307/70/d82226579ada.jpg

    Recent pic, Yantar.

    Admiral Essen has made impressive pace, almost caught up with Grigorovich.
    Grigorovich has not made much progress over past 6 months at all, so that is somewhat disappointing.
    However all the Indian boats are gone now, so maybe they can focus all energy on launching it.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:39 pm

    Russia Lays Down New Frigate for Black Sea Fleet


    The official ceremony, attended by Deputy Commander of the Baltic Fleet, Rear Admiral Sergei Popov, was held Friday, according to Baltic Reporter online news portal.

    The Admiral Butakov is the fourth in a series of six Project 11356, or Admiral Grigorovich-class, frigates for delivery to the Black Sea Fleet between 2014 and 2016 under a contract with the Defense Ministry.

    The lead warship in the series, the Admiral Grigorovich, was laid down in December 2010, the second, the Admiral Essen, in July 2011 and the third, the Admiral Makarov, in February 2012.

    The Project 11356 frigates, displacing 3,850 tons are designed for anti-ship and anti-submarine warfare on the high seas, and for anti-aircraft operations, both independently and as an escort ship.

    The ships are armed with an eight-cell launcher for Kalibr and Klub (3M54E) anti-ship and surface-to-surface missiles, a 100-mm main gun, Kashtan gun/missile close-in air defense systems, Shtil vertical-launch air defense missile systems, two torpedo tubes, an anti-submarine rocket system and a Ka-28 or Ka-31 helicopter, according to globalsecurity.org and rusnavy.com.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:56 pm

    The rumoured names of the 7th, 8th and 9th Project 11356 class frigates.

    Admiral Kolchak
    Admiral Lazarev
    Admiral Klokachev
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:22 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:The rumoured names of the 7th, 8th and 9th Project 11356 class frigates.

    Admiral Kolchak
    Admiral Lazarev
    Admiral Klokachev

    There will be 3 more? i thought were only 6 for black sea fleet
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    Viktor

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Viktor on Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:11 pm

    Another confirmation (better safe than sorry Very Happy )

    All Russian project 11356 will have Shilt-1 VLS thumbsup 


    The first sets of the latest SAM "Calm" Russian Navy will receive the 2014


    MOSCOW, Sept. 23 - RIA Novosti. Russian Navy in 2014, will receive the first modular sets of the latest anti-missile (SAM) "Calm" under construction for a series of six frigates of Project 11356, told RIA Novosti on Monday, CEO of the holding "Aviation" Maxim Kuzyuk .

    "Calm" is a complex air defense ships medium range. According Kuzyuk, the complex is able to deal with any existing and future aircraft weapons.

    "Supplies to the Russian Navy will begin in 2014. We plan to put six sets of SAM" Calm "for ships (Project 11356) to 2016", - said Kuzyuk.

    One of the main advantages of "Calm" in comparison with "old" complexes, according to the CEO of the holding is its rate of fire, since the interval between the start of rockets is less than two seconds.

    "Innovative solutions <...> allow you to post" Calm "on ships of various tonnage, adding a number of modules (one module 12 missiles.) The original technical solution allows the use of small rockets as well as the middle class" - added Kuzyuk.

    In the latest SAM launcher provides vertical launch, in which the rocket is released from the powder catapult transport and launch container to a height of 25 meters, and has already started at this height boosters.



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    Austin

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Austin on Mon Sep 23, 2013 1:38 pm

    Not Bad , Hope they go for 3 more ships of this class , India is planning to go for 3 more of this class.
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    sepheronx

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:30 pm

    Austin wrote:Not Bad , Hope they go for 3 more ships of this class , India is planning to go for 3 more of this class.
    Right now, its important that Russia gets these ships as they need more ships in the water. Plus, these ships are pretty heavy hitters and with shtil-1, they will have strong defence. So they should order more. I wonder if they can be upgraded to polimont-redut later on?
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:18 pm

    Viktor wrote:Another confirmation (better safe than sorry Very Happy )

    All Russian project 11356 will have Shilt-1 VLS thumbsup 


    The first sets of the latest SAM "Calm" Russian Navy will receive the 2014


    MOSCOW, Sept. 23 - RIA Novosti. Russian Navy in 2014, will receive the first modular sets of the latest anti-missile (SAM) "Calm" under construction for a series of six frigates of Project 11356, told RIA Novosti on Monday, CEO of the holding "Aviation" Maxim Kuzyuk .

    "Calm" is a complex air defense ships medium range. According Kuzyuk, the complex is able to deal with any existing and future aircraft weapons.

    "Supplies to the Russian Navy will begin in 2014. We plan to put six sets of SAM" Calm "for ships (Project 11356) to 2016", - said Kuzyuk.

    One of the main advantages of "Calm" in comparison with "old" complexes, according to the CEO of the holding is its rate of fire, since the interval between the start of rockets is less than two seconds.

    "Innovative solutions <...> allow you to post" Calm "on ships of various tonnage, adding a number of modules (one module 12 missiles.) The original technical solution allows the use of small rockets as well as the middle class" - added Kuzyuk.

    In the latest SAM launcher provides vertical launch, in which the rocket is released from the powder catapult transport and launch container to a height of 25 meters, and has already started at this height boosters.



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    Thank god for small favors. Would be a shame if these ships (which will serve decades!) were under-armed due to expediency.

    Austin

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Austin on Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:07 am

    sepheronx wrote:
    Austin wrote:Not Bad , Hope they go for 3 more ships of this class , India is planning to go for 3 more of this class.
    Right now, its important that Russia gets these ships as they need more ships in the water. Plus, these ships are pretty heavy hitters and with shtil-1, they will have strong defence. So they should order more. I wonder if they can be upgraded to polimont-redut later on?
    If Russia exports 11356 ships to India , it also makes a fat profit , keeps yard busy and makes them effecient .....so its beneficial to them.

    I am sure this ships is very imp for Russia and hopefully they get more of this , its a very balanced ship ......hopefully export to other customers like Vietnam
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:04 am

    I'd much rather see Yantar take part of the 22350 program, after the 6 Grigorovich ships.

    They are fine ships, but why not wait a few years and get ships with fundamentally newer systems, like Paket, Poliment-Redut, Palma, not to mention the RCS reduction.

    Austin

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Austin on Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:13 am

    How many VLS Shtil-1 will Grigorovich class ships will carry ?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:34 am

    The new Shtil-1 vertical launchers should be mechanically cheaper and simpler than the arm launcher and fully mechanised under deck ammo handler of the original system.

    It will also offer better unification with the new land based systems which also seem to have a tube launched missile.

    Paket and Palma are ready for service now... the latter system is a cheaper lighter simpler version of Kashtan-M and Paket is already in service.
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    Viktor

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Viktor on Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:26 pm

    Austin wrote:How many VLS Shtil-1 will Grigorovich class ships will carry ?
    36 is the number circulating around. 3 x 12 as Shtil-1 comes in packages of 12.
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:53 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    Austin wrote:How many VLS Shtil-1 will Grigorovich class ships will carry ?
    36 is the number circulating around. 3 x 12 as Shtil-1 comes in packages of 12.
    I think it will either be 2 Shtil modules + 2 UKSK modules, or 3 + 1 .
    Numbers keep changing depending where you look.

    Thank god for Vertical Shtil, since the CIWS has no missiles.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:00 am

    CIWS has no missiles.
    Palma has the option of 8 laser beam riding SOSNA-R missiles if required.

    Of course with laser guided shells I actually would consider replacing Palma with something like a 57mm cannon mount and a mix of AHEAD type ammo plus laser homing shells and of course standard proximity fused 57mm HE rounds...
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:36 am

    I mean on the Grigorovich, it only has good old AK-630 for close in protection. With single-arm Shtil AA Self defense would be completely inadequate; the Indian ships either have Kashtan or AK-630 + Barak so they are ok.

    Vertical Shtil capable of launching every 2 seconds would be adequate however.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:37 am

    So logically if they are fitting all new weapons where possible the old Kashtan-M should be replaced by a naval Pantsir-S1...
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    TR1

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:29 pm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=9XRaA_QXREg#t=163

    Good vid. Even normal Shtil has pretty fast fire capability.

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