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    Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

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    George1
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  George1 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:51 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:

    What Frigate is better armed than that?



    Clearly you dont see the problem.  No 


    Is Irrelevant which frigate is better. It will not even matter if NATO have no frigates at all to compare.
    Is not a vis vs vis competition. NATO will not Care about their Frigates being weaker. and don't need to show a frigate at all.
    if you RUssia bring a Frigate, NATO will bring  what they have.. Destroyers and Cruisers with at least 1 aircraft carrier.
    and will stay away of Oniks Range and use its Navl Airforce for offense.

    US navy not even have Frigates.. don't know why the comparison. irrelevant that is the best frigate.

    This means that the Grigorovich-class frigate will be limited on its operations.
    Cannot operate without a stronger ship escort that can defend the frigate from land airforce or aircraft carrier airforce.
    Because it will be sniped by any combat jet and could not fight back. So it will be limited by Coastal patrols
    to be defended by Air Force or escorted by an aircraft carrier or a Kirov.

    This also means the 6x Grigorovich class they will build will not be able be used to help in the defense of any allies away of Russian Territory unless is escorted by Bigger warships with S-300s or better defenses. Because will be overwhelmed by Any small airforce.

    In case of any war.. NATO naval airforce- any third world country airforce will deal with Russian navy limitation against Airforce.
    and Use their combat jets against Russia navy..  Major enemy of Russian NAVY will not be NATO warships but Combat jets .

    They will exploit Russian weakness in airspace defense on its navy. Kirov cannot be in all parts at same time. Neither its Aircraft carrier.

    IF Russia build  only Gorshov class frigates , instead of just 4 they could build 2-3 more and have Frigates that could
    Be used to lead battle groups ,With strong Sam defense capabilities. 2-3 Gorshov could be used as a replacement of 1 Kirov Class.
    And allow Russia to use their Frigates as Lead Ships and Project Power world wide.


    OK, first, Russian naval doctrine is defensive, so in WW3 you can bet, that you won't see Russian SAGs contesting GIUK gap, unfortunately.

    And second, ships tend to be vulnerable against aircraft, and that's not limited to "gr" frigate only.
    Send 3 squadrons of F-18s against the Kirov, and you'll see it in flames.

    Equally, send 3 squadrons of Su-30s against the Ticonderoga, and you'll see it in flames too.


    To George1:
    Yes. You may actually call gorshie "the pocket destroyer".

    what about a Kh-32 against aircraft carrier?? Smile


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:54 pm

    To George1:
    Yes, that's the case too.
    Heck, if you have 80USD to spare, you can buy computer game "Command: modern air/naval operations" and try it out yourself  Very Happy 

    Vann7
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:08 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:


    Send 3 squadrons of F-18s against the Kirov, and you'll see it in flames.




    Not really..  Very Happy 
    A kirov cruiser is literary a SAM FORTRESS ,have Massive Sam defenses. with ridiculous heavy CIWS defenses. not a single Harpoon
    flying at mach 0.8 (very slow) anti-ship missile will penetrate its CIWS defenses. have about 400 sams.. about ~100 of them S-300 missiles. After any Nation lose the first 50 planes they will give up. You cannot overwhelm a Kirov defense so easily it was made to handle a small carrier battle group.. In the other hand NATO warships its CIWS are useless against Oniks missiles,they flight too fast for CIWS do anything and do maneuvers at terminal phase. You will have like 2-3 seconds to defeat an Oniks with CIWS defenses because its range is only 3-4 km. Aegis Sams Air defenses neither can handle well Kalibrs missiles.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a5LkaU0wj714&refer=home


    The problem is not with Kirov..those cruisers can fight back. the problem is that Russia only have 1 kirov in service and the Grigo Frigates
    can be overwhelmed by small Airforce and Cannot fight back. in the other hand a Gorshov can fight back with its Strong S-400 defenses and  2 or 3 Gorshov could replace the performance of 1 Kirov class . In short the Grigo are useless against Air force. is a purely defensive ship, and none of its good Kalibr missiles will be used. NATO warships will never get close to Russia navy in conflict but away of its combat range. And use Their big airforce and submarines to counter Russian Navy.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

    etaepsilonk
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:35 pm

    To vann7:
    400 sams you say....
    OK, let's use simple mathematics.
    Let's say, that 2 sam missile salvo will destroy enemy ssm 100 percent, and have no malfunctions, aren't subject to jamming, missile decoys aren't used, etc., yo sum up, ideal conditions.

    Then, a whole sam battery can intercept 200 missiles. Let's assume, that every F-18 carries 5 harpoons.
    So, it takes 40 aircraft to completely deplete kirov's sam battery Smile
    Now, let's add another 8 planes (so, 48 for 4 squadrons).
    And that actually leaves 40 missiles, whose can only be fend-off by CIWS battery Smile
    Are you absolutely sure, that they can reliably intercept those 40 missiles? HMS Sheffield couldn't...

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 3:52 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:To vann7:
    400 sams you say....
    OK, let's use simple mathematics.
    Let's say, that 2 sam missile salvo will destroy enemy ssm 100 percent, and have no malfunctions, aren't subject to jamming, missile decoys aren't used, etc., yo sum up, ideal conditions.

    Then, a whole sam battery can intercept 200 missiles. Let's assume, that every F-18 carries 5 harpoons.
    So, it takes 40 aircraft to completely deplete kirov's sam battery Smile
    Now, let's add another 8 planes (so, 48 for 4 squadrons).
    And that actually leaves 40 missiles, whose can only be fend-off by CIWS battery Smile
    Are you absolutely sure, that they can reliably intercept those 40 missiles? HMS Sheffield couldn't...

    The Kirov alone can shot down ~300 harpons/planes.with their Sams alone. not counting their CIWS. Those 40 combat jets will not have a lot of chance to fire a single Harpoon with S-300F defenses and 150km range. The harpoon range is 120km . Means the Kirov will fire first at start shooting down F/18s before they attack .Big massacre. and if missile launched their 6 × CADS-N-1 Kashtan CIWS will have a field day .  yes absolutely sure you can't beat a Kirov with a small airforce  .  Very Happy 

    look what will happen to those harpoons or f-18 planes.
    http://youtu.be/J7ssNPxyHp8

    Also Just remember also that a Kirov is never alone.. it comes with a destroyer and something else. .

    But anything can be overwhelmed for sure ,specially once you are out of bullets and missiles or too many at same time .
    Thing is that makes more sense for Russia to make all their Medium warships with the capabilities to fight back an attacking airforce.. why? because they do not have the luxury of NATO to have an Airforce always with their navy. The only Kirov they have will not be always at hand and even less its dying aircraft carrier.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:33 pm; edited 5 times in total

    Vann7
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:29 pm

    George1 wrote:


    what about a Kh-32 against aircraft carrier?? Smile



    Oh indeed.. very good missile.  Very Happy 

    Which just prove my another point (in other discussions) of the need of Russia to focus less in navy.
    And more on a tactical long range Airforce. A hypersonic High Altitude Bomber or at least a squadron of Pak-DA will neutralize
    any Navy using long range missiles.


    i have a question.. anyone have any website or info that confirm Gorshkov-class frigate S-400 (48N6) missiles with  400km Range?
    I can see how the missiles can be mounted on any UKSK VLS cells ,what i don't see is how the frigate will be able to compact the Huge S-400 Radars ,its command center  and its many other equipment on a stealth frigate . The land S-400s require many trucks to carry ,aside of its launchers on land..

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Viktor on Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:29 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    George1 wrote:


    what about a Kh-32 against aircraft carrier?? Smile



    Oh indeed.. very good missile.  Very Happy 

    Which just prove my another point (in other discussions) of the need of Russia to focus less in navy.
    And more on a tactical long range Airforce. A hypersonic High Altitude Bomber or at least a squadron of Pak-DA will neutralize
    any Navy using long range missiles.


    i have a question.. anyone have any website or info that confirm Gorshkov-class frigate S-400 (48N6) missiles with  400km Range?
    I can see how the missiles can be mounted on any UKSK VLS cells ,what i don't see is how the frigate will be able to compact the Huge S-400 Radars ,its command center  and its many other equipment on a stealth frigate . The land S-400s require many trucks to carry ,aside of its launchers on land..

    Few points:

    1. You can not asses Grigorovic based on 6x Grigorovic VS whole NATO outcome
    2. Hypersonic bombers will come in 2025-2030 timeframe
    3. Untill then Subsonic/Supersonic bombers armed with hypersonic and subsonic and supersonic missiles will do (NATO has no defenses against it)
    4. Going in the production of hypersonic carriers right now would demand crazy amounts of money and time and production facilities. Technology needs to mature.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GJ Flanker on Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:55 pm

    All NATO sea-skimmers are subsonic, so that wouldn't be much of a problem for Russian frigates, corvettes or what erver.

    A real threat would be an antiship dedicated version of the french ASMP-A missile with M3 speed.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:15 pm

    Lol, yeah, if missile is not supersonic, then it's not a threat at all  Rolling Eyes 

    As I mentioned before, ships are very vulnerable from aircraft, be it a gunboat, or be it a battlecruiser.
    But notice, if they're provided with air cover, their survivability increases dramatically.
    With larger ships, frigates, destroyers (floating sam sites), that protection becomes mutual.
    So, for instance, fighter can perform hit-and-run attacks against enemy, then run for sam cover. If enemy follows, then it can be ambushed by the mentioned ships and/or additional fighters.
    I believe that such tactic allows to fend-off even numerically superior forces.

    To vann7:

    s-300 range is 150-200km, while harpoon range is about 280 km, so how exactly those f-18 will be getting destroyed again?  Rolling Eyes 

    Jeez, in ww2 pacific theatre, destruction of enemy carriers was an absolute priority, anyone curious, why?

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:48 am

    etaepsilonk wrote:

    To vann7:

    s-300 range is 150-200km, while harpoon range is about 280 km, so how exactly those f-18 will be getting destroyed again?  Rolling Eyes 

    Jeez, in ww2 pacific theatre, destruction of enemy carriers was an absolute priority, anyone curious, why?


    Latest Harpoons US navy use are Harpoon Block 2.. they are 124km range..  Smile 
    Those you mentions were discontinued ..  Very Happy 

    http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/harpoon-block-ii-anti-ship-missile/


    But to be fair ,Russia have been lucky because US sucks at designing Cruise Missiles. The New F-35 once enter in service
    will make things more difficult because its armament will include Norway latest (NSM ) cruise missiles that even thought they
    also suck for being same speed as Harpoons they have greater ranges of 300km+ ,so will allow to annoy those Russian old warships
    and leave unharmed. Reason why Russia needs to hurry up with warships with S-400s defenses.


    www.military.com/video/guided-missiles/antiship-missiles/jet-fighter-chases-naval-strike-missile/1187576322001/

    As you can see in that video ,is not rocket science to intercept a Subsonic missile.. any warplane can chase them. launch
    an IR missile and boom. easy kill. I have read you can even intercept them with manpads like Igla missiles that detect heat.  Very Happy 

    There is nothing to worry about such missiles easy to spot missiles in small numbers ,any CIWS defense will stop them.
    However in Massive Numbers launched at the same time things becomes complicated.


    .


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:30 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Latest Harpoons US navy use are Harpoon Block 2.. they are 124km range..  Smile 
    Those you mentions were discontinued ..  Very Happy 

    http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/harpoon-block-ii-anti-ship-missile/

    Wikipedia: Range: Over-the-horizon (approx 50 nautical miles)

       AGM-84D (Block 1C): 220 km (120 nmi)
       RGM/UGM-84D (Block 1C): 140 km (75 nmi)
       AGM-84E (Block 1E) : 93 km (50 nmi)
       AGM-84F (Block 1D): : 315 km (170 nmi)
       RGM-84F (Block 1D): 278 km (150 nmi).
       RGM/AGM-84L (Block 2): 278 km (150 nmi)
       AGM-84H/K (Block 1G / Block 1J): 280 km (150 nmi)


    Are you sure?  scratch


    Last edited by AlfaT8 on Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:57 am; edited 2 times in total

    TR1
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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  TR1 on Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:49 am

    To get that range the launch aircraft would have to be pretty high altitude.

    The ship would have ample warning of the aircraft, and the incoming missiles.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:10 am

    [quote="AlfaT8"]

    Are you sure?  scratch

    Wikipedia: Range: Over-the-horizon (approx 50 nautical miles)

       AGM-84D (Block 1C): 220 km (120 nmi)
       RGM/UGM-84D (Block 1C): 140 km (75 nmi)
       AGM-84E (Block 1E) : 93 km (50 nmi)
       AGM-84F (Block 1D): : 315 km (170 nmi)
       RGM-84F (Block 1D): 278 km (150 nmi).
       RGM/AGM-84L (Block 2): 278 km (150 nmi)
       AGM-84H/K (Block 1G / Block 1J): 280 km (150 nmi)

    Yes.. at least thats what Most Credible sources says..

    http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/harpoon-block-ii-anti-ship-missile/


    Harpoon Block II propulsion details

    The missile is propelled by a Teledyne Turbojet engine / solid propellant booster providing a thrust of over 600lb (272.2kg). The propulsion system provides high subsonic speed and range of 124km.

    Have seen many reviews and all say Harpoons are very limited in Range with 124km. The are a few higher ranges harpoons
    that are -prototypes- experiments that never made it into production using bigger fuel tanks and Land attack versions too , So my bet
    is on the Naval Technology site on the correct info.  Looking at this other site..also Popular site suggest the same..

    https://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/agm-84.htm

    If you look under their list you will see most on your wiki list discontinued and below on their chart  ,The harpoons in service ,the Anti-ship version its range listed at 60+ nautical miles =~110+ km.. and the longer range versions in service (SLAM-ER) Surface Land Attack - Extended Range ~300km..  So that site suggest that the only in service with greater than 120km range are land attack versions. which are obsolete against warships.  Tomahaws also have many models and most of them canceled too. Should be no surprise all this missiles are very old back to the 70's the first versions. Why better to look for the official ones that NATO use. not the prototypes never made it into production.

    But in any way.. it doesn't matter the harpoon sucked anyway. Norway have more modern anti-ship missiles with ~300km range.
    That will be the official anti-ship missile of F-35. Still is subsonic so kind of so so.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Strike_Missile#Joint_Strike_Missile


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:40 am

    I think they will use the 9M317M Shtil-1 (SA-N-12B Grizzly) missile, which has an range of 50 km.
    The 70 km range missile is the 9M317M3 Buk-M3 (SA-17C Grizzly).
    Maybe, and I hope, they will use the 9M317M3 missile!

    I suspect they might start with the 50km range missiles, but over time they will upgrade to 70km or longer range models eventually.

    With the newer longer range missile design available it makes little sense to invest in production of the older design.

    Clearly you dont see the problem.

    Clearly I don't.

    Is Irrelevant which frigate is better. It will not even matter if NATO have no frigates at all to compare.

    The Frigate has a role in every navy... that is why they exist.

    To suggest there is no need for them because they can't take on and defeat the enemies air force on their own is a poor argument.

    if you RUssia bring a Frigate, NATO will bring what they have.. Destroyers and Cruisers with at least 1 aircraft carrier.

    First of all Russia will not send a Frigate on its own against all of NATO.

    Second of all Frigates are USEFUL... it would be bloody stupid to not have frigates because a frigate cannot singlehandedly defeat all your enemies.

    NATO countries have lots of frigates because they are USEFUL.

    US navy not even have Frigates.. don't know why the comparison. irrelevant that is the best frigate.

    Oliver Perry Class?

    So it will be limited by Coastal patrols
    to be defended by Air Force or escorted by an aircraft carrier or a Kirov.

    Sorry, but real world is not a computer game. You don't just play chess using Queen and King and ignoring the other pieces.

    Frigates are useful during peacetime... they are handy for sending on anti piracy missions... they can perform the role at a fraction of the cost of sending a carrier or cruiser.

    On their own they are vulnerable... like any ship is, but within a battle groups they add air defence and anti ship and land attack capability as well as anti sub capability too.

    They are another set of sensors and weapons that can be added to the groups assets.

    They use the same weapons and sensors as the larger vessels so are compatible and standardised reducing the costs of the larger vessels.

    This also means the 6x Grigorovich class they will build will not be able be used to help in the defense of any allies away of Russian Territory unless is escorted by Bigger warships with S-300s or better defenses. Because will be overwhelmed by Any small airforce.

    If an ally of Russia needs support from the Russian Army will the Russian Army send a division of cooks and parade guards, or will they send a fighting force?

    Give the Russian Navy some credit...

    Major enemy of Russian NAVY will not be NATO warships but Combat jets .

    You might want to have a close look at how many countries maintain a decent enough airforce that could go out into the ocean and find some ships and attack them with modern capable weapons that will get through the defences of these Frigates... because there actually aren't that many.

    They will exploit Russian weakness in airspace defense on its navy. Kirov cannot be in all parts at same time. Neither its Aircraft carrier.

    Their new destroyer will have Poliment and Redut... a huge ass AESA likely to detect targets at 600+km and SAMs able to hit targets at 400km range... these frigates... if sent would need Destroyer support... not cruiser... and 2-3 destroyers and 2-3 frigates would be able to deal with anything most airforces could throw at them... on paper anyway.

    IF Russia build only Gorshov class frigates , instead of just 4 they could build 2-3 more and have Frigates that could
    Be used to lead battle groups ,With strong Sam defense capabilities. 2-3 Gorshov could be used as a replacement of 1 Kirov Class.

    Why on earth would they want frigates to be cruisers?

    They are building destroyers now too, and soon enough they will likely build a light cruiser or two to support their carrier groups.

    And allow Russia to use their Frigates as Lead Ships and Project Power world wide.

    Surely they should be using Corvettes to lead their expansion into the global scene... they can leave the anti piracy and maritime patrol duties to their fishing boats... armed with 152mm gun turrets and 800km range SAMs and 5,000km range cruise missiles... hypersonic of course... Very Happy

    i have a question.. anyone have any website or info that confirm Gorshkov-class frigate S-400 (48N6) missiles with 400km Range?

    Will likely only carry a few large long range missiles (250km) and use the 4 missile adapter for each tube for what is basically a naval Vityaz missile compliment. 32 tubes would result in a payload of up to 128 Vityaz SAMs as a standard payload, while two Pantsir-S1 systems replacing Kashtan means 4 gatlings and 64 missiles.... able to engage at least 8 targets at a time.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:55 am

    As I mentioned before, ships are very vulnerable from aircraft, be it a gunboat, or be it a battlecruiser.

    A gunboat generally lacks the radar range to see threats let alone the medium and long range SAMs needed to engage such threats.

    A battle cruiser on the other hand has much more powerful sensors and much longer range missile defences and has rather less to fear from air power.

    However in Massive Numbers launched at the same time things becomes complicated.

    It is also the reason the Kirov class ships have a battle management suite and a range of vertically launched SAMs with lots of missile directors to allow lots of missiles in the air at once for use against lots of targets at once.

    It has 8 Kashtan mounts... which means 16 30mm gatling guns which can shoot down subsonic missiles, plus 256 missiles designed specifically to shoot down low flying supersonic missiles. That is before you look at Rif-M and Klintock... and you also have guns firing proximity fused rounds out to 23km and of course a range of jamming equipment and decoys...

    They would be exceptionally difficult to defeat on their own and most air forces would not be organised enough to mount an effective coordinated attack to ensure victory... if it had other vessels with it then it can multiply its ability to defend by all those extra missile directors and jammers and decoys... and of course those planes have to find it first.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:05 pm

    @garryB

    The Frigate has a role in every navy... that is why they exist.
    To suggest there is no need for them because they can't take on and defeat the enemies air force on their own is a poor argument.

    No one have said Frigates are not useful. even a patrol boat can be useful ,if you had some knowledge in tactics you will understand.
    All im saying is that those Grigorovich will be very limited frigates in their use for purely defensive mode. cannot fight back an Airfoce..
    and Gorshkov frigate can. NATO do not have such limitations ,even if their frigates are inferior because they have aircraft carriers always
    helping in the defense.  easy to understand but  but you insist on arguments just for the sake of arguments. to make it look
    you have a point.  when you not.


    Frigates are useful during peacetime... they are handy for sending on anti piracy missions... they can perform the role at a fraction of the cost of sending a carrier or cruiser.

    Yes, And corvettes are also useful ,patrol boats too and helicopters and tanks are all useful. thats not the point. The point is
    gorshkov frigates can allow the Russian Navy to fight back an Airforce  and allow more flexibility to the Russian Navy how to deploy
    their warships and the Grigorovish can only defend.



    Why on earth would they want frigates to be cruisers?

    Because they have very few and most not prepared to Fight back against an attacking Air-force..
    Russia have only 1 kirov cruiser and 1 aircraft carrier that can help defend their warships against a long range Sniping Airforce that can launch their missiles beyond 100km ranges.  An effective air  defense needs to have the capability to be the one to Fire first and not allow the possibility to any enemy airforce to even try.  The best defense is offense and giving a chance to your enemy to keep trying is a mistake.. thats why.. next question?




    They are building destroyers now too, and soon enough they will likely build a light cruiser or two to support their carrier groups

    Yes and at the pace Russia is building warships it will be 2020 or 2025 and we will not see it .Russia needs warships NOW not in 2020 or more. that not only can defend well but also fight back back against sniping airforce..  Airforce can defeat Navy.. specially when this one only have small range Defense.  Those BUks SAMS defenses were NEVER intended to be used alone.. you need long range Sams to keep away any airforce. SO those Grigo Frigates with will need to always be attached to the only Kirov Russia have. If you had 2-3 Gorshov you could use them as a Kirov to defend your navy airspace from an airforce. and not have to depend on your very few strong Sam defenses  warships for  everything.as simple as that.


    Will "likely" only carry a few large long range missiles (250km) and use the 4 missile adapter for each tube for what is basically a naval Vityaz missile compliment.

    As far i understand the S-400s is not its only its missiles.. I don't think is as simple as to have reduct launchers and plug a long range missile and thats it. The land version have a big network of trucks with Radars ,Command Center and other stuff ,that i don't see how they are going to fit it on the Stealth Frigate.. specially the Nebo radars. You need more than one Radar for different kind of targets . and as you know stealth Frigate cannot have a lot of surface outside the boat or there will be no point for them to be stealth. The info have seen only points to the 9m96d missiles with 120k range.  which will be not bad against old antiship missiles but not good enough for F-35 300km anti-missiles.


    Last edited by Vann7 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:41 pm; edited 8 times in total

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:36 pm

    To Vann7:
    "Because most of them are old and not prepared to Fight back against an attacking Air-force.. "

    Sorry, but you're wrong, if a ship is detected and identified by the airforce it cannot fight back it can only defend.



    And your Harpoon D range may be correct (120km), but that's not the case with Harpoon F with 280 km range.
    And in any case, let's not limit ourselves to Harpoon missiles only, and also take into account RBS-15, C-802, Jassm, NSM/JSM, all those missiles outrange S-300F of the Kirov.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:51 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:To Vann7:
    "Because most of them are old and not prepared to Fight back against an attacking Air-force.. "

    Sorry, but you're wrong, if a ship is detected and identified by the airforce it cannot fight back it can only defend.



    And your Harpoon D range may be correct (120km), but that's not the case with Harpoon F with 280 km range.
    And in any case, let's not limit ourselves to Harpoon missiles only, and also take into account RBS-15, C-802, Jassm, NSM/JSM, all those missiles outrange S-300F of the Kirov.


    Kirov defense are 150km..and those harpoons of 280km range are discontinued models ,or land attack versions useless against warships. The harpoon antiship missile that today NATO use and sell to allies its range is ~120km .

    http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/harpoon-block-ii-anti-ship-missile/

    and those NSM/JSM info came from me.. thanks .  Very Happy  F-35 missiles. but not everyone have them .  .. JSM not in service yet.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:12 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:To Vann7:
    "Because most of them are old and not prepared to Fight back against an attacking Air-force.. "

    Sorry, but you're wrong, if a ship is detected and identified by the airforce it cannot fight back it can only defend.



    And your Harpoon D range may be correct (120km), but that's not the case with Harpoon F with 280 km range.
    And in any case, let's not limit ourselves to Harpoon missiles only, and also take into account RBS-15, C-802, Jassm, NSM/JSM, all those missiles outrange S-300F of the Kirov.


    Kirov defense are 150km..and those harpoons of 280km range are discontinued models ,or land attack versions useless against warships. The harpoon antiship missile that today NATO use and sell to allies its range is ~120km .

    http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/harpoon-block-ii-anti-ship-missile/

    and those NSM/JSM info came from me.. thanks .  Very Happy  F-35 missiles. but not everyone have them .  .. JSM not in service yet.



    Sorry, but this whole discussion is just laughable, and I do not wish to continue it.
    Let's not forget that there's also one thing called line of sight, and using it aircraft can close in on a ship even well within it's SAM range.

    In Falklands war A-4 skyhawks were attacking British warships with GRAVITY BOMBS and still managed to get away most of the time.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:42 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:


    Sorry, but this whole discussion is just laughable, and I do not wish to continue it.
    Let's not forget that there's also one thing called line of sight, and using it aircraft can close in on a ship even well within it's SAM range.

    In Falklands war A-4 skyhawks were attacking British warships with GRAVITY BOMBS and still managed to get away most of the time.

    You never focus your navy in a single point in space .. You can extend the line of view of those warships by spreading them..
    There are Awacs ,helicopters that helps to extend your view ,still you need Sam defenses with long range that the Grigo don't have.
    Anyway it seems Russia listened to me..with the Gorshkov .. lol  and did the correct thing ,but will keep that information until is official.  Cool


    Last edited by Vann7 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:47 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:


    Sorry, but this whole discussion is just laughable, and I do not wish to continue it.
    Let's not forget that there's also one thing called line of sight, and using it aircraft can close in on a ship even well within it's SAM range.

    In Falklands war A-4 skyhawks were attacking British warships with GRAVITY BOMBS and still managed to get away most of the time.

    You never focus your navy in a single point in space .. You can extend the line of view of those warships by spreading them..
    There are Awacs ,helicopters that helps to extend your view ,still you need Sam defenses with long range that the Grigo don't have.


    That's what I was trying to say the whole time. Then in open sea. ships NEED support from the air, and moreover, it's impossible to actually hunt down enemy aircraft with SAMs, except ambushing them.

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  Vann7 on Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:56 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:


    Sorry, but this whole discussion is just laughable, and I do not wish to continue it.
    Let's not forget that there's also one thing called line of sight, and using it aircraft can close in on a ship even well within it's SAM range.

    In Falklands war A-4 skyhawks were attacking British warships with GRAVITY BOMBS and still managed to get away most of the time.

    You never focus your navy in a single point in space .. You can extend the line of view of those warships by spreading them..
    There are Awacs ,helicopters that helps to extend your view ,still you need Sam defenses with long range that the Grigo don't have.


    That's what I was trying to say the whole time. Then in open sea. ships NEED support from the air, and moreover, it's impossible to actually hunt down enemy aircraft with SAMs, except ambushing them.

    Finally we are on the same page..  Cool 
    Agreed. and this comes to my other bigger point that a strong tactical airforce can defeat any strong tactical navy.
    but not going there again. You can look my post in the pak-da thread ...


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  medo on Mon Jan 20, 2014 6:07 pm

    Any recent picture of Grigorovich?

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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  runaway on Tue Jan 21, 2014 9:55 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Finally we are on the same page..
    Agreed. and this comes to my other bigger point that a strong tactical airforce can defeat any strong tactical navy.
    but not going there again.

    This remains to be seen as no modern naval combat has taken place for 30 years. As for airpower, both in Kosovo and Georgia AD succesfully denied airpower to rule the battle.

    The Grigorovich is a well balanced Frigate that will be very useful, and i expect more orders will be placed.


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    Re: Project 11356: Admiral Grigorovich

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:17 am

    No one have said Frigates are not useful. even a patrol boat can be useful ,if you had some knowledge in tactics you will understand.

    Aren't you the one saying Russia should not have a navy and should just make hypersonic bombers instead...

    All im saying is that those Grigorovich will be very limited frigates in their use for purely defensive mode. cannot fight back an Airfoce..

    They can't shoot down meteors either... which is also not their job...

    and Gorshkov frigate can. NATO do not have such limitations ,even if their frigates are inferior because they have aircraft carriers always
    helping in the defense.

    The Gorshkov cannot always fight off an air force, and NATO frigates don't always operate with carrier support.

    easy to understand but but you insist on arguments just for the sake of arguments. to make it look
    you have a point. when you not.

    Frigates will never be able to defeat enemy air forces... they might be able to defend themselves but any airforce will change tactics after 30% are shot down.

    The point is
    gorshkov frigates can allow the Russian Navy to fight back an Airforce and allow more flexibility to the Russian Navy how to deploy
    their warships and the Grigorovish can only defend.

    And what you seem to not know or ignore is that no frigate around the world would be used to defeat an enemy powers air force so that country can be invaded. The Grigorovich can perform 98% of all the missions the Gorshkov can perform and do it rather more cheaply. When I say 2% of jobs can't be done odds are those 2% of jobs will never need doing by a Russian navy vessel... so the performance difference is meaningless.


    Because they have very few and most not prepared to Fight back against an attacking Air-force..

    What attacking air force? Why would Russian Frigates be operating outside the range of land based friendly fighters?

    Russia have only 1 kirov cruiser and 1 aircraft carrier that can help defend their warships against a long range Sniping Airforce that can launch their missiles beyond 100km ranges.

    Only the US Navy has the budget to afford the thousands of missiles needed to reliably defeat a group of Russian navy ships... which are all very well protected from anti ship missiles... supersonic and subsonic.

    If the US Navy initiated an attack on Russian Navy vessels the result would be irrelevant as it will be ICBMs and SLBMs deciding the result... which will always be both sides lose so neither side will start.

    An effective air defense needs to have the capability to be the one to Fire first and not allow the possibility to any enemy airforce to even try. The best defense is offense and giving a chance to your enemy to keep trying is a mistake.. thats why.. next question?

    Read and understand the MAD principle... it makes offense the worst option as it gets both sides killed.

    Russia needs warships NOW not in 2020 or more.

    Why?

    Not long ago you claimed they didn't need a Navy and could use the money saved making a hypersonic bomber.

    Those BUks SAMS defenses were NEVER intended to be used alone.. you need long range Sams to keep away any airforce.

    There are plenty of western vessels that don't even have a SAM as powerful as Shtil-1.

    The land version have a big network of trucks with Radars ,Command Center and other stuff ,that i don't see how they are going to fit it on the Stealth Frigate.. specially the Nebo radars. You need more than one Radar for different kind of targets . and as you know stealth Frigate cannot have a lot of surface outside the boat or there will be no point for them to be stealth. The info have seen only points to the 9m96d missiles with 120k range. which will be not bad against old antiship missiles but not good enough for F-35 300km anti-missiles.

    The new MARS AESA array being developed for S-400/S-500 has a range of about 2,500km... would that be good enough?

    The Sigma battle management system being fitted to all Russian vessels includes datalinks to all platforms and satellites and land based sensors and under sea based sensors... what were you saying about a Russian Frigate on its own?

    all those missiles outrange S-300F of the Kirov.

    Assuming they are still able to get a radar lock on their target... an old frigate might have a rcs of 200m and be detectable from 400km, but a modern stealthy frigate might not be that easy to find...

    In Falklands war A-4 skyhawks were attacking British warships with GRAVITY BOMBS and still managed to get away most of the time.

    Not ships in the open ocean... they came in from the land side of ships that had moved close to shore either to provide naval gun fire support or to land forces.

    If the British had fixed wing carrier based AWACS the result would have been rather different with far fewer ships lost.

    Of course if the Argentines had prepared properly and, say bought Mig-23s with BVR missiles then the result might have been even more different.

    The Grigorovich is a well balanced Frigate that will be very useful, and i expect more orders will be placed.

    It is the frigate equivalent of the Mistral... available proven design that is ready for fairly rapid production with the bugs ironed out and a vast step up from existing vessels which do need replacing.


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