Russian special military operation in Ukraine #52

Isos wrote:

Mir wrote:@Isos

An ICBM warhead free falls from about 100km and hits the earth (impact speed) at about 7km/s

ICBM enters the atmosphere at mach 20-24.

The dense atmosphere is 0-10km in altitude. It doesn't have time to slow down too much. It goes through those 10km in matter of few seconds.

At mach 10 Kinzhal takes just few second more to go through the atmosphere and impact the target. It ks however manoeuvring so pre-launching your patriot to get it near a future position of the kinzhal is impossible. That would be possible if it was a purely ballistic missile, you can calculate the flight sebd a patriot and hope the onboard active radar sees the missile.

The difference here is - as someone already pointed out - that the Kinzhal is rocket powered whilst the nuke warhead is not. Can't see how the Kinzhal will slow down with a booster up it''s ass in a downward trajectory?

Kinzhal is not powered by a terminal stage rocket engine. Same with Iskander. This is even visible in the photos from the Iskander impact. Only Cirkon can has propulsion throughout the entire flight segment.

"Who told you that the Russian military is worse than ours?"

After nearly 2 years it's finally okay to admit this in public now, so why even provoke the fight in the first place

Two Majors #Report for the Morning of 4 January 2024; pub. 08:01:round_pushpin:

In #Ukraine overnight, our "Geraniums" were at work: the #Starokonstantinov airfield in the #Khmelnitsky region was hit once again. Since the evening, a series of missile attacks have been carried out in the #Kharkov region. Observers note massive strikes on the enemy's border temporary deployment sites in #Sumy and #Kharkov regions.

In the #Kherson direction, fighting continues in #Krynki and the destruction of the enemy's landing force on the water. It is reported that the RF Armed Forces have been conducting more frequent strikes by Lancet UAVs against enemy facilities on the enemy's shore.

On the #Zaporozhye front, there is a decrease in the intensity of enemy actions on the ground. Against this background, the RF Armed Forces are attacking in the #Rabotino - #Verbovoye area, there are tactical successes. Our aviation and artillery are working actively.

South of #Maryinka, the main efforts of the Russian Army are concentrated near #Novomikhaylovka. There are no significant changes in the frontline.

In the #Avdeyevka sector, heavy bloody fighting is taking place. The active parts of the front are the areas near #Stepovoye, the Coke Plant, #Opytnoye and #Nevelskoye.

In the direction of Chasov Yar, our troops are also on the offensive near #Bogdanovka and #Khromovo. To the south, near #Kurdyumovka, they reported the capture of several enemy positions.

In the #Serebryanskoye forestry and in the area of #Torskoye continued fighting. In the #Kupyansk Sector there are no changes, with counter battles.

In the #Belgorod region, there is constant shelling by the AFU in the following areas: #Glotovo and #Zamostye in the Grayvoron urban district, #Murom village in the Shebekinsky urban district. In #Kursk region after an AFU strike, a substation in Zheleznogorsk district was being repaired. On the civilians of the #DPR the enemy fired 275 rounds of ammunition, two civilians were wounded.

Kherson region, near our shore - the AFU docked on another boat. Ours issued a fine for illegal parking.


https://t.me/sitreports/20474

Arrow wrote:Kinzhal is not powered by a terminal stage rocket engine. Same with Iskander. This is even visible in the photos from the Iskander impact. Only Cirkon can has propulsion throughout the entire flight segment.

It's a single stage rocket just like the Iskander. The Iskander travels at a relatively flat trajectory at around Mach6-7 with a 500km range - which means the rocket is probably lit 99% of the time. Same is probably true for the Kinzhal?

Kinzhal has a range of more than 1000 kms due to being air launched from a Mig-31. It certainly does not mean that the rocket will flame out after 500 kms.

s a single stage rocket just like the Iskander. The Iskander travels at a relatively flat trajectory at around Mach6-7 with a 500km range - which means the rocket is probably lit 99% of the time. Same is probably true for the Kinzhal? wrote:

Why does the engine have to run all the time? ICBMs can also fly on a very flat trajectory, of course suitable for a range of 10,000 km, and the engine only runs for a few minutes.

Arrow wrote:

Why does the engine have to run all the time? ICBMs can also fly on a very flat trajectory, of course suitable for a range of 10,000 km, and the engine only runs for a few minutes.

I'm not saying it's running all the time but to maintain that high Mach number with a flat trajectory the Iskander's rocket will burn most of the way. Almost all ICBM's run a ballistic trajectory out in empty space at tremendous speeds.

We don't really know how long the engine burns in Kinzhal. Although I believe that Iskander/Kinzhal flies powerless in its terminal phase.

GarryB wrote:India didn't sell anything to the Ukraine, that is US propaganda to try to divide India and Russia.

Precisely!
Even the picture uploaded is of an artillery charge container that was apparently manufactured in India. The thing is charge containers are not necessarily shell specific. The same charge container can be used for 152mm and 155mm shells.

The west is having a meltdown that India will jointly manufacture weapons with Russia. Piers Morgan devoted an entire show to this topic.

Snippets from a west based article. Too big to post fully. Some interesting information.

(comparable to a space shuttle booster), the 9M723 is powerful enough to fly on a quasi-ballistic trajectory that allows it to use aerodynamic drag to manoeuvre without sacrificing either range or speed. The ability to travel on a quasi-ballistic trajectory represents a significant challenge, both because the missile can spend a longer part of its trajectory under the horizon of air defence radar, and because at altitudes of 40 km the missile flies above the intercept envelope of most air defence systems, such as the PAC-3, but below the envelope of ballistic missile defence interceptors.

a possible penetration aid, which fits into six canisters at the base of the warhead. Preliminary evidence suggests that some of the decoys emit thermal signatures, while others are equipped with jammers to counter active seekers. The decoys may also present an enhanced radar signature to spoof ground-based radar.

They have suggested that the iskander variants with added EO seekers are more accurate, and in the terminal phase it maybe revert to TV guidance. Those with EO seekers have accuracy within 7m. And the cruise missile variants have between 1-3m accuracy.

While likely to have a range of roughly 500 km if carrying a 700 kg warhead, the missile’s range can be doubled depending on the size of the warhead used and its trajectory – a point tacitly admitted in 2007 by the then-commander of the Artillery and Missile Forces of the Russian Army, Colonel General Vladimir Zaritsky. The terminal descent onto a target is conducted vertically, giving little opportunity for successful interception.

Royal United Services Institute

COMMENTARY
The Iskander-M and Iskander-K: A Technical Profile
Sam Cranny-Evans and Dr Sidharth Kaushal
8 August 2022
Long Read
Zooming past: a test firing of an Iskander missile by Russian armed forces in 2014Zooming past: a test firing of an Iskander missile by Russian armed forces in 2014
Zooming past: a test firing of an Iskander missile by Russian armed forces in 2014. Image: Mil.ru / Wikimedia Commons / CC BY 4.0

Russia’s Iskander ballistic missile system is a crucial part of its modern arsenal. This article provides an overview of its features and its impact on present-day conflicts.

Development and Purpose
The 9K720 Iskander, a system at the heart of Russia’s modern precision strike capability, has a long history. Though it has been suggested that the Iskander was fielded as a response to Western missile defences, the history of the project shows that this is only partially true. Nor, as is often assumed, was the system built primarily as a more sophisticated successor to the OTR-21 Tochka. The direct technological predecessor of the 9M723 was the Soviet SS-23 Oka SRBM, a platform that was envisioned as part of a family of systems that would constitute what Marshal Ogarkov described as the reconnaissance strike complex – a networked system of sensors and prompt strike missiles capable of attacking targets across the theatre at very short notice. The Oka, which could be set up and fired in five minutes, was viewed as a serious threat to both concentrations of NATO forces and airbases, given its potential to be used in surprise attacks.

Indeed, then-US Under Secretary of Defence Fred Ikle suggested that accurate conventionally armed short-range ballistic missiles (SRBMs) could allow the Soviets to achieve goals that they could previously have accomplished only with tactical nuclear weapons – language which mirrored Ogarkov’s own. In truth, this may well have been an exaggeration at the time, reflecting both Soviet bombast and US fears. The Oka, which was estimated to have a circular error probable (CEP) of around 50–100 m, was poorly suited to many conventional missions. The system relied on a combination of inertial guidance and an early digitised scene-mapping area correlator (DSMAC) providing radar terrain contour matching for guidance in its terminal phase. This was a viable means of striking targets that were large, fixed and on well-mapped terrain, but was less useful against camouflaged, time-sensitive or mobile targets. Moreover, the missile was not sufficiently accurate to hit hardened or buried targets or to dispense submunitions reliably.

Finally, the Soviets had to operate under significant limitations to the speed and accuracy with which ISR could be gathered and processed. Sources such as electronic intelligence were limited by poor granularity, while synthetic aperture radar (SAR)-equipped aircraft required substantial human labour to exploit their data. Nonetheless, the Soviets conducted work on more sophisticated variants of the missile before the Gorbachev administration traded them for the signing of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, suggesting that they had high hopes for it. The eventual role of the OTR-23 was to be a capability that could strike a range of hardened or time-sensitive targets at short notice. Despite the agreement reached with Gorbachev, work on the project was likely continued covertly in the 1990s by the Kolomna Machine Bureau under the aegis of a satellite programme. The 9M723 ballistic missile fielded as part of the Iskander system represents the culmination of these efforts, providing Russia with a highly accurate prompt strike capability that can be used for both tactical- and theatre-level missions. In addition, the system can launch cruise missiles – the 9M727 and 9M728.

Iskanders are assigned to Russia’s Missile Brigades, which are separate from the Strategic Missile Brigades that employ the country’s ground-based strategic missiles. The brigades are intended to support the Russian ground troops with operational-tactical precision strikes. At least one brigade is assigned to each of Russia’s military districts.

System Composition and Method of Operation
According to a 2019 Janes article, the Iskander systems are known by the Grau code of 9K270, which refers collectively to the 9P78-1 transporter erector launcher (TEL) vehicles – each carrying two missiles – the 9T250E transporter-loader vehicles, the 9S552 command post vehicle and the 9S920 information processing station. An Iskander-M brigade is provided with three battalions, each of which consists of four 9P78-1 TELs for a total of 12 TELs per brigade.

The 9P78-1 is based on an 8x8 MZKT-7930 all-terrain chassis from the Minsk Tractor Plant in Belarus and is fitted with a gas turbine generator that provides power for the elevation and programming of the missiles. The gross vehicle weight of a 9P78-1 is 42.3 tonnes. It can attain speeds of 70 km/h on roads, but is designed to be taken off-road to conduct engagements. The TEL vehicle can be made ready to launch a missile within 16 minutes of travelling, although this is reduced to five minutes if the vehicle is stationary. The TEL is crewed by three personnel, and the 9T250E that is also based on the MZKT-7930 carries a crew of two. It uses a crane to reload missiles onto the TEL and can also dock or undock the missile warheads. Reloading the missiles is understood to take 16 minutes.

The 9S552 and 9S920 vehicles that support the Iskander brigade are understood to be capable of receiving and processing real-time full motion video from unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) as well as targeting data from the Strelets (Sagittarius) reconnaissance command and control system, which is provided to Russian reconnaissance formations. It allows targeteers to select areas on a map for targeted strikes by a range of Russian long-range assets. The coordinates are confirmed and then entered using a computer in the cab of the 9P78-1. There is a datalink in the rear of the vehicle that transmits the coordinates to the missile and programmes it for the engagement. The type of data likely varies depending upon the seeker used; some are capable of using SAR or optical imagery of the target to enable the seeker head to adjust the missile’s course and ensure a high degree of accuracy.

Once the target coordinates have been programmed into the missile, it is elevated from the horizontal to the vertical position and then launched. Both missiles carried by the TEL can be launched within one minute of each other, and it may be possible for a single TEL to carry two different missiles – such as the 9M728 and 9M723 – with both launched to arrive at the target at the same time, further complicating any air defence efforts. Russian forces have also practised the integration of Iskander and the Tornado-S multiple rocket launcher into a single reconnaissance-strike complex, the mass of the latter complementing the precision of the former.

Russian Ministry of Defence reported in 2018 that Iskanders had been used to engage ships for the first time, illustrating how a combination of active and EO seekers enables them to hit moving targets. Functionality against ships also illustrates the capacity for high-g terminal phase manoeuvres.

In midcourse, it relies on a combination of DSMAC, inertial guidance and, potentially, satellite navigation systems the Russian GLONASS, and datalink options were in development some years ago the assumption would be that this is now an option. During its course it can turn boosters on and off as is necessary.

Front #Summary for 4 Dec 2024 by 18:02:zap:

In #Kherson direction, they report on the expected AFU problems with logistics in connection with the gathering of ice on the #Dnieper. Serious cold weather is coming to the region. It will not be easy for ours either, but it is more difficult for the Ukrainian military in the ruins of the #Krynki village. In addition, the AFU from the field report a noticeable increase in counterbattery warfare on the part of our forces, the use of Lancets. Positional fighting in the village continues.

In #Zaporozhye Direction, without changes on the #Rabotino - #Verbovoye line. The weather complicates the work of drones and movement.It is cloudy, muddy and damp. Our aviation, continues to hit the AFU deployments in the rear. On the ground, our military continues to fight for positions.

In #SouthDonetsk Direction, after heavy fighting at #Pobeda, our forces managed to advance on the southeastern outskirts of the village. After the liberation of #Maryinka, the main efforts of our military are directed towards #Novomikhaylovka. There is fighting, so far without significant changes.

In #Donetsk Direction, on the southern #Avdeyevka flank, our forces have significantly advanced on the outskirts of #Pervomayskoye. There are also progresses on the southeastern outskirts of the city in the private sector and near #Nevelskoye, where the situation seems to have turned. Our attacks on #Severnoye and #Tonenkoye have so far have rested on the AFU defence. On the northern flank, our army continues to advance on the #Berdychi - #Ocheretino - #Novokalinovo line. According to field information, our army periodically conducts reconnaissance raids into the territory of the Coke Plant, but there is no talk about full-fledged battles for the plant yet.

In #Bakhmut Direction, our forces are once again building up pressure near #Bogdanovka. One of the restraining factors is the dense work of the AFU drones. Over the past few days, our intelligence has been focused on detecting the AFU drone operators, and the artillery is prioritising work on these targets. On the southern flank, our army continues to push the enemy back from #Kurdyumovka and #Andreyevka.

In #Svatovo Direction, our forces have intensified artillery work on military facilities and AFU deployments near the Kupyansk-Uzlovoy station over the past few days. Our pressure continues in the area of #Sinkovka and #Kislovka, so far without significant territorial gains. In the #Kremennaya forests and near #Torskoye there are no major changes.


https://t.me/sitreports/20498

the narrative that Ukies shot down a kinzhal

They claimed the IRIS-T missile tumbling down into the river was a Kinzhal.

so why even provoke the fight in the first place

Money.

Two Majors #Report for the Morning

If you read the Ukro reports, they repell all russian attacks all day long... and then retreat a few kilometres.
Propably because some umpire saw a holding or some illegal formation.

ndia is NOT a true democracy.

From people overthrowing elected governments all over the world while being best buddies with the worst
dictators.

had to operate under significant limitations to the speed and accuracy with which ISR could be gathered and processed.

Main problem in the west: Living in your own delusional fantasy world leads to bad decisions.
The Russians had working recon-strike complexes at a time armies of other countries were still riding on horsebacks into battle.

Reportedly Ukrainian MLRS systems the were used on Belgorod were tracked and destroyed in the Kharkov region

Hole wrote:

had to operate under significant limitations to the speed and accuracy with which ISR could be gathered and processed.

Main problem in the west: Living in your own delusional fantasy world leads to bad decisions.

The Russians had working recon-strike complexes at a time armies of other countries were still riding on horsebacks into battle.

Good point. NATO/US is busy honing their systems to perfection based on the flow of data from their Intel gathering aircraft and drones. That will not exist beyond the first few minutes in a real war.

Thought to be the first Skynex system.

Defense of Ukraine
@DefenceU
We are grateful to our German friends for their new military aid package, which includes:

Ammunition for Leopard 2A6
10 Marder 1A3 IFVs
IRIS-T SLM missiles
1 air defence system SKYNEX with ammunition
2 air surveillance radar TRML-4D
9,080 shells of 155mm artillery ammunition
2 mine clearing tanks WISENT 1
1 bridge-laying tanks BEAVER with spare parts
3,350 combat helmets
30 drone detection systems
10 ground surveillance radars GO12
10 trucks Zetros
3 HX81
1 Semi-trailer for HX81
34 vehicles (trucks, minibuses, all-terrain vehicles)
305 MK 556 rifles
0.75 million rounds of firearm ammunition
1,152 Winter camouflage nets
2,000 Winter camouflage Ponchos

If this is tonight then that is 7 more targets destined to be unexpectantly destroyed.



This is an interesting event

ucmvulcan wrote:mtlb suicide drones? Could this be why T-55s and T-62s are being sent to theater? How hard would it be to turn them into drones?  

If they are being brought close to the front, all it would take is bungee cords on the controls and a vicegrip on the throttle. But that wouldn't count as a drone I guess. They'd have to put electro hydraulic servos on the controls. And then have a way communicating with them. It probably wouldn't be that hard.

They could use old tanks for decoys too. Instead of sending a column towards the line, send some decoy tanks to attract the counter fire. It would probably be a lot of work logistically but that would save lives.

Arrow wrote:We don't really know how long the engine burns in Kinzhal. Although I believe that Iskander/Kinzhal flies powerless in its terminal phase.

I would say it depends on how far to the target. I would say if the target does not require max range its gonna come down vertical with engine burning. Like with all missiles at max range your options become fewer.