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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:09 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    I don't know, I really am honestly suspecting some sort of co-ordinated attack on this forum.
    When one angle doesn't work, they switch right to another one. The most inane accusations and absurd speculations. Shit being thrown on every wall in the hope that something will stick. And multiple accounts repeating the same things
    Adding to that I've already been personally accused of being some leading propagandist by one such post-24/02 member. FFS bitch, I enlighten people for free, my service to you.
    Lord knows why NATO would bother with this forum. Perhaps because it's enough for a web resource to be an accumulator of information. A place where people can verify facts and draw conclusions from them is a big no-no for the Western war propaganda effort.

    I consider all the accounts registered years ago with some single digit posts No as boots.
    Look at the construction and body of those posts. Either a simple trolling question or some kind of statement. Hardly interested in any answers.

    caveat emptor wrote:
    🔻Even the Lancet with a HEAT warhead is not enough to guarantee the destruction of heavy armored vehicles.  Of the 14 such machines, only 3 were completely disabled.

    This is a type of conclusions I like most. Captain Obvious to the rescue!
    Lancet is a pinpoint accurate small drone created to avoid collateral damage while carrying out it's mission.
    There is perfectly nothing wrong in a fact that it can't tore a tank to pieces. Wasn't designed to do so.
    On the other hand, a version with a HEAT warhead is effective against tanks and armored vehicles - there were some materials where cumulative jet penetrated through and flew away, but in some cases, it is too heavy to effectively destroy non/lightly armored targets.
    The very same case was with the PT-76 swimming tanks. Those were armored so lightly, that serious AT missiles from grant launchers, RPG or ATGMs were amazingly noneffective against them, as the jet just penetrated them through, and didn't increase the pressure inside the hull. So if a crew member was lucky enough not to sit on the stream way - they stayed relatively unharmed.
    And that is what we are seeing now.
    But keep in mind, that Ukros potential of servicing the vehicle park is deteriorating steadily. Smaller repair facilities have been deliberately targeted back in Summer. They lack any practical potential for repairing the NATO-delivered pieces. A junkyard they get is a vehicle zoo from all perspectives. More and more information emerging, that a huge issue is the lack of spare tires. Those are very fragile to the destruction caused by artillery fire and causes the situations when a perfectly fit vehicle must be abandoned because they can't replace tires for it.
    They don't produce those tires, multiple types of vehicles donated create a waste need of different tires sizes that is a logistic nightmare.
    Conclusion is, that even realively small damage caused by the small Lancer may be an irrevocable loss because they can't repair that anymore.


    Last edited by ALAMO on Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:12 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Making a deal would be bad for the russians not only does that make them appear weak, which hey if you got forced into an agreement by Ukraine....one has to wonder but it completely ruins the army's rep and makes countries less worried about Russia and willing to ally with them and frankly far to much to even mention.

    It would have serve consequences, Russia had put itself in a position where it cannot lose this war because losing it would have catastrophic effects for decades if not centuries.

    That is the situation here for them pure and simple and there is no other alternative its come to that.


    Yes Putin went all in from the start and crossed the Rubicon. But by and large Russia cannot lose this war anyway. It has an enormous advantage this close to its borders, and where the tolerance of NATO to lose its men there will be far less than Russia's.

    The only way Russia can lose this war is if it destroys its own home front, by going for some 'deal', whereby the US will deal its most mortal blow to Russia - that of exposing its elite's greed and shortsightedness to its own population; and subsequently the regime will be overthrown.
    Which is precisely why there won't be any such deal made.

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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:13 pm

    US general Milley is suggesting "peace talks" and now Macron is about to call Putin. Other European leaders have also said recently they want to talk with Putin. There was no push for talks like this since February, early March from my memory, so something is definitely up. And also we've been hearing from the Russian side for the past few weeks that they would like to negotiate but that "Ukraine is not interested". We've heard this from everyone, even Putin! Full on push is being made for another Minsk, guaranteed. And the Russians are so desperate to end this war, they might actually take it. Now, some sort of deal could fall apart still but chances are good that Russia would accept a very poor deal just to end the war. That's my reading at least. Doesn't seem like the populace or the leadership has the heart to really destroy Ukraine like it should and take what belongs to them, which is Novorossiya. The desire is just not there, that's why they've fought this war half-assed the entire time. Very sad developments. I don't think Putin should survive as leader if some poor deal is made, time for that old, over the hill hag to go. Who would have confidence in him anymore after all of the promises he made and didn't stick to any of them?

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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:19 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Making a deal would be bad for the russians not only does that make them appear weak, which hey if you got forced into an agreement by Ukraine....one has to wonder but it completely ruins the army's rep and makes countries less worried about Russia and willing to ally with them and frankly far to much to even mention.

    It would have serve consequences, Russia had put itself in a position where it cannot lose this war because losing it would have catastrophic effects for decades if not centuries.

    That is the situation here for them pure and simple and there is no other alternative its come to that.


    They lost in Afghanistan in embarrassing fashion and the 1st Chechen war. This has happened in the recent past. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Russia would give up on this war, with how it's going and how much it's costing them in so many ways.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:22 pm

    We shall see but I do personally doubt any such deals, as any deal will be the very first step toward the end of russia as a unified state.

    It won't happen in our lifetimes but that single event would be the catalyst.

    Hence why I fully believe there will be no deal.

    For Russia its win or die, its why I find how they are refusing to treat this war as they should just utterly stupid. Oh wait sorry I mean "Special Military Operation"
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:22 pm

    billybatts91 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Stoltenberg today:

    "We must not make the mistake of underestimating Russia. The Russian army is strong and numerous. The coming months will be tough. What we must do is to strengthen the position of Ukraine. The only way to resolve the Russian-Ukrainian conflict is on the battlefield. Many wars have been decided at the negotiating table, but this is not the case.”

    There we go. Straight from the horse's mouth. There will be no "Minsk-3". Now can you doomers finally kindly STFU about it? Thanks

    lol, doesn't matter what this mouthpiece says. If America wants to offer a Minsk 3 type of deal to Russia, then it will go that way. Stoltenberg doesn't have actual real power or sway to continue something that America doesn't want to continue, if America chooses to actually go down that route.

    Stoltenburg is a mouthpiece then who is Peskov?

    Peskov is just one of many competing and contradictory Russian official info sources, creating such a muddle that no-one will ever be able to tell heads or tails for sure, but at the same time leaving all options on the table potentially with an alibi, just to ensure maximum flexibility.
    At the same time affirming and denying everything

    Stoltenburg so far however has not said one thing that contradicts the US's line.
    If America wants to offer a Minsk-3 deal, it's free to offer it, and there's no reason why Russia should not listen to any given proposal, or even attempt to make a counter-proposal.
    But actually agreeing to a document that proposes a strategic defeat for Russia, a disputed status of its territories, a re-arming of the Ukraine, a breather for the EU economies to find new energy sources prior to Round 3, and no doubt a stripping of Russia's remaining friends and allies over its strategic stupidity and lack of resolve, if not paving the road for domestic turmoil and a regime change attempt - would be a self-inflicted catastrophe and nothing less. Why are we even discussing it? Why do I have to waste my time refuting to you that which is so obviously wrong? You might as well say that Putin is about to submit himself to the Hague.

    And what precisely is the criticality of the strategic situation in Russia that would necessitate such an unfavorable treaty? Is it the military which has been smashed and in pieces? Is it the economy that's in free-fall? Is it the Saudis, Qataris, Chinese, Indians, Africans and others that have decided that they're going to impose sanctions and quit trade with Russia after all?

    Yet none of this logic applies - as for you it is just another angle to come at from, another doubt to sow. And when one is parried you find another line of attack. This is your job.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:25 pm

    billybatts91 wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Making a deal would be bad for the russians not only does that make them appear weak, which hey if you got forced into an agreement by Ukraine....one has to wonder but it completely ruins the army's rep and makes countries less worried about Russia and willing to ally with them and frankly far to much to even mention.

    It would have serve consequences, Russia had put itself in a position where it cannot lose this war because losing it would have catastrophic effects for decades if not centuries.

    That is the situation here for them pure and simple and there is no other alternative its come to that.


    They lost in Afghanistan in embarrassing fashion and the 1st Chechen war. This has happened in the recent past. It's not out of the realm of possibility that Russia would give up on this war, with how it's going and how much it's costing them in so many ways.

    Historical no, the military performed well in Afghan the soviets suffered very few losses, it was a political decision that gave them the L just like my own country there, military wise we owned them but the politicians made the call. But look at what happened the USSR collapsed

    1st Chech war yeahhhhh they performed like ass there but that was a war they could afford to fail in.

    Ukraine is one they literally cannot its do or die.
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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:28 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:We shall see but I do personally doubt any such deals, as any deal will be the very first step toward the end of russia as a unified state.

    It won't happen in our lifetimes but that single event would be the catalyst.

    Hence why I fully believe there will be no deal.

    For Russia its win or die, its why I find how they are refusing to treat this war as they should just utterly stupid. Oh wait sorry I mean "Special Military Operation"

    Well that's your view, but maybe Russian leadership doesn't believe that them ending this war would lead to the end of Russia itself. Maybe they believe that the cost of continuing it is untenable for Russia.
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    Post  limb Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:30 pm

    Rybar reports that Ukrainian forces pinned down in Kherson will be transferred to artemovsk. Artemovsk doesn't look like itll be liberated for a very very long time.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:31 pm

    billybatts91 wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:We shall see but I do personally doubt any such deals, as any deal will be the very first step toward the end of russia as a unified state.

    It won't happen in our lifetimes but that single event would be the catalyst.

    Hence why I fully believe there will be no deal.

    For Russia its win or die, its why I find how they are refusing to treat this war as they should just utterly stupid. Oh wait sorry I mean "Special Military Operation"

    Well that's your view, but maybe Russian leadership doesn't believe that them ending this war would lead to the end of Russia itself. Maybe they believe that the cost of continuing it is untenable for Russia.

    Its the only realistic view, only a fool would believe this war is just about Ukraine,

    I have done and do my country's dirty work, so I knew full well what's really at stake here, I know the play book, I know the goals and if the russian leadership cannot see that then I feel bad for the Russian people because soon or later they going to get fucked way harder then anyone here can imagine.

    I mean ask yourself would Ukraine have prepared to attack Donbass if it didn't know, We would be there?. Use your critical thinking skills and figure out the rest from there. That one sentence contains pages worth of material.

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:35 pm

    billybatts91 wrote:US general Milley is suggesting "peace talks" and now Macron is about to call Putin. Other European leaders have also said recently they want to talk with Putin. There was no push for talks like this since February, early March from my memory, so something is definitely up. And also we've been hearing from the Russian side for the past few weeks that they would like to negotiate but that "Ukraine is not interested". We've heard this from everyone, even Putin! Full on push is being made for another Minsk, guaranteed. And the Russians are so desperate to end this war, they might actually take it. Now, some sort of deal could fall apart still but chances are good that Russia would accept a very poor deal just to end the war. That's my reading at least. Doesn't seem like the populace or the leadership has the heart to really destroy Ukraine like it should and take what belongs to them, which is Novorossiya. The desire is just not there, that's why they've fought this war half-assed the entire time. Very sad developments. I don't think Putin should survive as leader if some poor deal is made, time for that old, over the hill hag to go. Who would have confidence in him anymore after all of the promises he made and didn't stick to any of them?

    Russia is not desperate to end this war, it has no reason to be. That's just your assumption. I live in Russia. The war is not popular and never will be, no-one wants the war, but it's very much a case of out of sight, out of mind. It has not affected the economy beyond that of relatively quick repair, while Europe with its energy crisis and inflationary spiral is in a lot more trouble and perhaps this is the reason why they're jumping at a change to end this thing - it is after all their enthusiasm for negotiations that this video actually shows.

    I mean for reasons of curating world opinion, Russia will certainly be eager to be seen to engage in peace talks as well, and even to have facilitated them. But no doubt the Europeans will be disappointed when it turns out to insist on its own conditions just as it did in March. It's not going to cut some Minsk-3 or whatever. Territorial recognition and neutrality, pretty much just that.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:37 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:37 pm

    billybatts91 wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:We shall see but I do personally doubt any such deals, as any deal will be the very first step toward the end of russia as a unified state.

    It won't happen in our lifetimes but that single event would be the catalyst.

    Hence why I fully believe there will be no deal.

    For Russia its win or die, its why I find how they are refusing to treat this war as they should just utterly stupid. Oh wait sorry I mean "Special Military Operation"

    Well that's your view, but maybe Russian leadership doesn't believe that them ending this war would lead to the end of Russia itself. Maybe they believe that the cost of continuing it is untenable for Russia.

    Or maybe you're the one who's wrong

    Which conclusion is the more likely?

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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:37 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    billybatts91 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Stoltenberg today:

    "We must not make the mistake of underestimating Russia. The Russian army is strong and numerous. The coming months will be tough. What we must do is to strengthen the position of Ukraine. The only way to resolve the Russian-Ukrainian conflict is on the battlefield. Many wars have been decided at the negotiating table, but this is not the case.”

    There we go. Straight from the horse's mouth. There will be no "Minsk-3". Now can you doomers finally kindly STFU about it? Thanks

    lol, doesn't matter what this mouthpiece says. If America wants to offer a Minsk 3 type of deal to Russia, then it will go that way. Stoltenberg doesn't have actual real power or sway to continue something that America doesn't want to continue, if America chooses to actually go down that route.

    Stoltenburg is a mouthpiece then who is Peskov?

    Peskov is just one of many competing and contradictory Russian official info sources, creating such a muddle that no-one will ever be able to tell heads or tails for sure, but at the same time leaving all options on the table potentially with an alibi, just to ensure maximum flexibility.
    At the same time affirming and denying everything

    Stoltenburg so far however has not said one thing that contradicts the US's line.
    If America wants to offer a Minsk-3 deal, it's free to offer it, and there's no reason why Russia should not listen to any given proposal, or even attempt to make a counter-proposal.
    But actually agreeing to a document that proposes a strategic defeat for Russia, a disputed status of its territories, a re-arming of the Ukraine, a breather for the EU economies to find new energy sources prior to Round 3, and no doubt a stripping of Russia's remaining friends and allies over its strategic stupidity and lack of resolve, if not paving the road for domestic turmoil and a regime change attempt - would be a self-inflicted catastrophe and nothing less. Why are we even discussing it? Why do I have to waste my time refuting to you that which is so obviously wrong? You might as well say that Putin is about to submit himself to the Hague.

    And what precisely is the criticality of the strategic situation in Russia that would necessitate such an unfavorable treaty? Is it the military which has been smashed and in pieces? Is it the economy that's in free-fall? Is it the Saudis, Qataris, Chinese, Indians, Africans and others that have decided that they're going to impose sanctions and quit trade with Russia after all?

    Yet none of this logic applies - as for you it is just another angle to come at from, another doubt to sow. And when one is parried you find another line of attack. This is your job.

    So you're saying that America's highest ranking general is contradicting himself and his own country and we should listen and believe every word of Stoltenberg, a stupid mouthpiece who was supposed to relinquish his post at NATO by now and go run a bank in Norway, but whatever the US general says is BS huh? Just stop it. America is the #1 supplier of weapons and money to Ukraine, they run NATO and whatever they say goes. Milley is in constant contact with Biden. He just said, if you read the post above, that the withdrawal of Russians from Kherson opens up the possibility to a dialogue and eventual peace deal. Stoltenberg just contradicted him. So you're wrong. And Milley has more of a say on what should happen then that goofball from Norway with no real power.
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:42 pm

    billybatts91 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    billybatts91 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Stoltenberg today:

    "We must not make the mistake of underestimating Russia. The Russian army is strong and numerous. The coming months will be tough. What we must do is to strengthen the position of Ukraine. The only way to resolve the Russian-Ukrainian conflict is on the battlefield. Many wars have been decided at the negotiating table, but this is not the case.”

    There we go. Straight from the horse's mouth. There will be no "Minsk-3". Now can you doomers finally kindly STFU about it? Thanks

    lol, doesn't matter what this mouthpiece says. If America wants to offer a Minsk 3 type of deal to Russia, then it will go that way. Stoltenberg doesn't have actual real power or sway to continue something that America doesn't want to continue, if America chooses to actually go down that route.

    Stoltenburg is a mouthpiece then who is Peskov?

    Peskov is just one of many competing and contradictory Russian official info sources, creating such a muddle that no-one will ever be able to tell heads or tails for sure, but at the same time leaving all options on the table potentially with an alibi, just to ensure maximum flexibility.
    At the same time affirming and denying everything

    Stoltenburg so far however has not said one thing that contradicts the US's line.
    If America wants to offer a Minsk-3 deal, it's free to offer it, and there's no reason why Russia should not listen to any given proposal, or even attempt to make a counter-proposal.
    But actually agreeing to a document that proposes a strategic defeat for Russia, a disputed status of its territories, a re-arming of the Ukraine, a breather for the EU economies to find new energy sources prior to Round 3, and no doubt a stripping of Russia's remaining friends and allies over its strategic stupidity and lack of resolve, if not paving the road for domestic turmoil and a regime change attempt - would be a self-inflicted catastrophe and nothing less. Why are we even discussing it? Why do I have to waste my time refuting to you that which is so obviously wrong? You might as well say that Putin is about to submit himself to the Hague.

    And what precisely is the criticality of the strategic situation in Russia that would necessitate such an unfavorable treaty? Is it the military which has been smashed and in pieces? Is it the economy that's in free-fall? Is it the Saudis, Qataris, Chinese, Indians, Africans and others that have decided that they're going to impose sanctions and quit trade with Russia after all?

    Yet none of this logic applies - as for you it is just another angle to come at from, another doubt to sow. And when one is parried you find another line of attack. This is your job.

    So you're saying that America's highest ranking general is contradicting himself and his own country and we should listen and believe every word of Stoltenberg, a stupid mouthpiece who was supposed to relinquish his post at NATO by now and go run a bank in Norway, but whatever the US general says is BS huh? Just stop it. America is the #1 supplier of weapons and money to Ukraine, they run NATO and whatever they say goes. Milley is in constant contact with Biden. He just said, if you read the post above, that the withdrawal of Russians from Kherson opens up the possibility to a dialogue and eventual peace deal. Stoltenberg just contradicted him. So you're wrong. And Milley has more of a say on what should happen then that goofball from Norway with no real power.

    There was a report just a few weeks ago about how the US was pressuring Zelensky to need to appear to want to negotiate, as America's own allies were starting to be hesistant
    Well Zelensky made a clip where he says that he's willing to negotiate with Russia as soon as all Russian forces leave the Ukraine. So that's that.
    So now Plan B, it seems the US is leading the charge themselves. And Russia is willing to humor them precisely because otherwise it would appear to be the one 'refusing peace'

    Question is billybalts, why on Earth do you think that this flimsy charade will be any less transparent for the Russian leadership than it is for you or for me?
    Why do you also think, that if even a lays-person such as us can figure out that any Minsk-3 will be a disaster for Russia, and that there is no economic/military/international circumstances that should force Russia to agree to one - that the Russian leadership should not have come to exactly the same conclusion?

    Do you really believe yourself to be that much smarter?

    Let everyone do their jobs. Including keep up whatever appearances and play out whatever diplomacy they need to.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:43 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    billybatts91 wrote:US general Milley is suggesting "peace talks" and now Macron is about to call Putin. Other European leaders have also said recently they want to talk with Putin. There was no push for talks like this since February, early March from my memory, so something is definitely up. And also we've been hearing from the Russian side for the past few weeks that they would like to negotiate but that "Ukraine is not interested". We've heard this from everyone, even Putin! Full on push is being made for another Minsk, guaranteed. And the Russians are so desperate to end this war, they might actually take it. Now, some sort of deal could fall apart still but chances are good that Russia would accept a very poor deal just to end the war. That's my reading at least. Doesn't seem like the populace or the leadership has the heart to really destroy Ukraine like it should and take what belongs to them, which is Novorossiya. The desire is just not there, that's why they've fought this war half-assed the entire time. Very sad developments. I don't think Putin should survive as leader if some poor deal is made, time for that old, over the hill hag to go. Who would have confidence in him anymore after all of the promises he made and didn't stick to any of them?

    Russia is not desperate to end this war, it has no reason to be. That's just your assumption. I live in Russia. The war is not popular and never will be, no-one wants the war, but it's very much a case of out of sight, out of mind. It has not affected the economy beyond that of relatively quick repair, while Europe with its energy crisis and inflationary spiral is in a lot more trouble and perhaps this is the reason why they're jumping at a change to end this thing - it is after all their enthusiasm for negotiations that this video actually shows.

    I mean for reasons of curating world opinion, Russia will certainly be eager to be seen to engage in peace talks as well, and even to have facilitated them. But no doubt the Europeans will be disappointed when it turns out to insist on its own conditions just as it did in March. It's not going to cut some Minsk-3 or whatever. Territorial recognition and neutrality, pretty much just that.

    Yet they're giving every indication that they are willing to negotiate a bad peace deal for themselves. All the evidence is there. You clearly don't want to look at the facts or think about them and come to the right conclusion. Negotiations could still stall though, I still recognize that. But they are talking, that's undeniable at this point.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:43 pm

    Miley isn't contradicting himself though you are misinterpreting his words, and I think you are missing Flames point and while I do not agree with him on some aspects in this one he is correct.

    Its one thing to make a deal its another to accept and any deal we the US propose will be highly unfavorable to Russia and there is no way they will accept that...unless they are traitors I guess or wanna be shot by their own people....

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:45 pm

    billybatts91 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    billybatts91 wrote:US general Milley is suggesting "peace talks" and now Macron is about to call Putin. Other European leaders have also said recently they want to talk with Putin. There was no push for talks like this since February, early March from my memory, so something is definitely up. And also we've been hearing from the Russian side for the past few weeks that they would like to negotiate but that "Ukraine is not interested". We've heard this from everyone, even Putin! Full on push is being made for another Minsk, guaranteed. And the Russians are so desperate to end this war, they might actually take it. Now, some sort of deal could fall apart still but chances are good that Russia would accept a very poor deal just to end the war. That's my reading at least. Doesn't seem like the populace or the leadership has the heart to really destroy Ukraine like it should and take what belongs to them, which is Novorossiya. The desire is just not there, that's why they've fought this war half-assed the entire time. Very sad developments. I don't think Putin should survive as leader if some poor deal is made, time for that old, over the hill hag to go. Who would have confidence in him anymore after all of the promises he made and didn't stick to any of them?

    Russia is not desperate to end this war, it has no reason to be. That's just your assumption. I live in Russia. The war is not popular and never will be, no-one wants the war, but it's very much a case of out of sight, out of mind. It has not affected the economy beyond that of relatively quick repair, while Europe with its energy crisis and inflationary spiral is in a lot more trouble and perhaps this is the reason why they're jumping at a change to end this thing - it is after all their enthusiasm for negotiations that this video actually shows.

    I mean for reasons of curating world opinion, Russia will certainly be eager to be seen to engage in peace talks as well, and even to have facilitated them. But no doubt the Europeans will be disappointed when it turns out to insist on its own conditions just as it did in March. It's not going to cut some Minsk-3 or whatever. Territorial recognition and neutrality, pretty much just that.

    Yet they're giving every indication that they are willing to negotiate a bad peace deal for themselves. All the evidence is there. You clearly don't want to look at the facts or think about them and come to the right conclusion. Negotiations could still stall though, I still recognize that. But they are talking, that's undeniable at this point.

    No, they're not. You just have no ability to read diplomatic language, or make any effort to understand international relations in general.
    Russia has made no indication whatsoever that they're interested in a Minsk-3, and are barely even interested in negotiations with anyone other than the Ukraine directly. You will see this evidenced shortly.

    Again, you're not smarter than the Russian leadership, neither am I. They realize what's in their interests and what isn't.

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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:50 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    billybatts91 wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    billybatts91 wrote:US general Milley is suggesting "peace talks" and now Macron is about to call Putin. Other European leaders have also said recently they want to talk with Putin. There was no push for talks like this since February, early March from my memory, so something is definitely up. And also we've been hearing from the Russian side for the past few weeks that they would like to negotiate but that "Ukraine is not interested". We've heard this from everyone, even Putin! Full on push is being made for another Minsk, guaranteed. And the Russians are so desperate to end this war, they might actually take it. Now, some sort of deal could fall apart still but chances are good that Russia would accept a very poor deal just to end the war. That's my reading at least. Doesn't seem like the populace or the leadership has the heart to really destroy Ukraine like it should and take what belongs to them, which is Novorossiya. The desire is just not there, that's why they've fought this war half-assed the entire time. Very sad developments. I don't think Putin should survive as leader if some poor deal is made, time for that old, over the hill hag to go. Who would have confidence in him anymore after all of the promises he made and didn't stick to any of them?

    Russia is not desperate to end this war, it has no reason to be. That's just your assumption. I live in Russia. The war is not popular and never will be, no-one wants the war, but it's very much a case of out of sight, out of mind. It has not affected the economy beyond that of relatively quick repair, while Europe with its energy crisis and inflationary spiral is in a lot more trouble and perhaps this is the reason why they're jumping at a change to end this thing - it is after all their enthusiasm for negotiations that this video actually shows.

    I mean for reasons of curating world opinion, Russia will certainly be eager to be seen to engage in peace talks as well, and even to have facilitated them. But no doubt the Europeans will be disappointed when it turns out to insist on its own conditions just as it did in March. It's not going to cut some Minsk-3 or whatever. Territorial recognition and neutrality, pretty much just that.

    Yet they're giving every indication that they are willing to negotiate a bad peace deal for themselves. All the evidence is there. You clearly don't want to look at the facts or think about them and come to the right conclusion. Negotiations could still stall though, I still recognize that. But they are talking, that's undeniable at this point.

    No, they're not. You just have no ability to read diplomatic language, or make any effort to understand international relations in general.
    Russia has made no indication whatsoever that they're interested in a Minsk-3, and are barely even interested in negotiations with anyone other than the Ukraine directly. You will see this evidenced shortly.

    Again, you're not smarter than the Russian leadership, neither am I. They realize what's in their interests and what isn't.

    No need to go back and forth, we will see who is right very shortly. All will be reveled.
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:52 pm

    billybatts91 wrote:No need to go back and forth, we will see who is right very shortly. All will be reveled.

    You're the one who's going back and forth. Every time cheers
    Like I said, it's your job.

    Now come back here when Putin has sold the country down the river. Else, ease your choke grip on the man and this thread.
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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:07 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    billybatts91 wrote:No need to go back and forth, we will see who is right very shortly. All will be reveled.

    You're the one who's going back and forth. Every time cheers
    Like I said, it's your job.

    Now come back here when Putin has sold the country down the river. Else, ease your choke grip on the man and this thread.

    I won't be going back and forth anymore. No point. I made my thoughts known and you made yours. I actually hope your thoughts are the ones that come true. I don't want to make it sound like I'm hoping or praying that Russia takes some crap deal and this leads to the downfall. I just have my doubts with this leadership currently in the Kremlin, it does sound like something they COULD do.

    Now, if we get this winter counter-offensive and other positive signs in the days/weeks ahead, I could change my mind and be more optimistic. As of right now, I'm very pessimistic, especially after the suspicious withdrawal from Kherson.

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    Post  Hole Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:16 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 22 Fhibdm10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 22 Scree494
    The zombies from the 155. Marines took some prisoners.
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 22 Scree495
    DANA done

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    Post  JohninMK Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:19 pm

    Hole wrote:Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 22 Fhibdm10

    Apart from the electricity pylon, what are the two masts in the distance?
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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:21 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.....It would have serve consequences, Russia had put itself in a position where it cannot lose this war because losing it would have catastrophic effects for decades if not centuries.

    That is the situation here for them pure and simple and there is no other alternative its come to that.

    Forget centuries, if they fúck this up they will be lucky to last couple of decades tops

    The moment they lose this war everyone on the landmass will want a slice

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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:21 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 22 64674710
    Hole
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    Post  Hole Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:27 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Apart from the electricity pylon, what are the two masts in the distance?
    dunno

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 22 Fhjabj10
    Bushmaster at the end of his road. And so are the 6 passengers.
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 22 Scree496
    That´s how a miltia should look!  I love you

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