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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

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    Azi


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    Post  Azi Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:49 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Zelensky parades around Kherson.
    Sure some kind of deal looming. Russia positions are just on the other side of the Dnepr only 2 km away, they could bomb the shit out of the area!
    Yes a deal is coming soon...but not related to the Ukraine war, but an exchange of prisoners (Brittney Griner etc). Official statement!

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    Post  famschopman Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:51 pm

    I think the hardware isn't the issue. From what I have seen last week, the various people left in this region are (seemingly) happy to see the Ukraine troops entering. Whether propaganda or not but if Russia wants to succeed, they need to win the hearts and minds of the people to gain their support. If not, you will just end up with local resistance.
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    Post  ucmvulcan Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:58 pm

    I am on a cellphone so way too much to cut out, but why hasn't Russia taken out US drones or satellites? Simple. The war is not a shooting war directly with the USA as of yet.  There's a reason T-72s and T-62s have been deployed far more than T-90 and its not because T-90s are in short supply.  There's a reason they haven't downed US drones or deployed their anti satellite tech.  That is because they don't want to show their hand.  Why show your hand when you have lots of surplus in your tank parks that can destroy the old stuff NATO has.  NATO wants signals intel.  They want to see how Russia's latest stuff works.  They want to see radar signatures, heat signatures, and capability.  Why give them this? In Ukraine T-72s and T-62s do the job.  No need to give away the secrets of new model weapons.  No need to show you can take down a US drone or knock out a US spy satellite.  You save that in case NATO actions exceed plausible deniability.  If NATO has troops "on vacation or retired from service" well you kill them like you would the Ukes.  They send in advisors you don't risk too much by taking them and their equipment out.   101 doing inventory? Watch them.  They are just in the warehouses or munitions dumps leave em be.  Hit the dumps as soon as stuff starts going to the front, but kill them.  101 crosses the border in force and fully flagged? Then you take out US sats and drones.  They play plausible deniability you play plausible deniability.  Ukraine is being fought by two cold warriors.  There are rules to this game.  The name of the game is to get as close to nuclear war without actually starting one and making your foe back off.  That's why Moscow, DC, London, and Paris are all talking nukes.  Part of deterrence is convincing the other parties that should it come to it, you are unafraid to use them.

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    Post  Azi Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:00 pm

    limb wrote:
    The west smells weakness. I ask: what is the actual russian red line for declaring war?

    Why is russia afraid of destroying global hawks or US satellites? Thats a sign of weakness.
    That's true I fully agree with you on this!

    It doesn't matter how different the European/Western states are, they can even be abysmal enemies. But when they sense the weakness of a great enemy, they all band together and pounce on the victim like wolves.

    There are enough examples... the Byzantine Empire was attacked by the Catholic states in the 4th crusade and never recovered from this blow... later the Ottomans managed to conquer Constantinople, but the weakening took place beforehand through the crusade.

    In the ensuing war after the Boxer Rebellion, the Europeans formed a coalition to invade China. China was defeated and weakened for a long time.

    There are many more examples...
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:01 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Let the West think they can push some sort of deal or Minsk 3 through or anything that doesn't involve the Ukraine's capitulation to core Russian conditions of territorial recognition and neutrality - the only things that can actually maintain it free from anyone's troops moving forwards.

    And you guys incapable of thinking critically can assume the same if you would like

    Russia has absolutely nothing to gain from any sort of deal. Not lasting peace, not money, not a resumption of trade and relations - who will give it to Russia?

    Even if Russia gets that $300 billion back - so what? What it can it do with, if the sanctions all remain in place?
    And why bother with such pocket change, when what's on the line is the very value of the US Dollar itself and its place in the world financial system, among other things?

    You shriekers really are some psyops types.


    I am not a supporter of occupying a large territory and I think that a good part of Ukroshitstan is permanently poisoned and Russia does not need such garbage.
    Russia is doing exactly what it should, killing the military-capable population and thus demilitarizing Ukraine. If the Russians had taken all those cities immediately, they would have had far more Ukrops cells ready for terrorist attacks. This is how the Russians, with this way of conducting conflicts, will send them all to the eternal hunting grounds, they will destroy their militarily ready and willing population for war, they will devastate their economy and infrastructure, and when the conflict is over - Ukrops will look like this..
    Bitter pill, defeat, cheap pussies, further attrition of the population, riots and internal political conflicts, etc.

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 21 German11

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    Azi


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    Post  Azi Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:02 pm

    famschopman wrote:I think the hardware isn't the issue. From what I have seen last week, the various people left in this region are (seemingly) happy to see the Ukraine troops entering. Whether propaganda or not but if Russia wants to succeed, they need to win the hearts and minds of the people to gain their support. If not, you will just end up with local resistance.
    Simple reason...if they don't cheer they will die! You are not dealing with normal people and soldiers here... these are Nazis and wild animals!

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    Post  Azi Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:04 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:
    I am not a supporter of occupying a large territory and I think that a good part of Ukroshitstan is permanently poisoned and Russia does not need such garbage.
    Russia is doing exactly what it should, killing the military-capable population and thus demilitarizing Ukraine. If the Russians had taken all those cities immediately, they would have had far more Ukrops cells ready for terrorist attacks. This is how the Russians, with this way of conducting conflicts, will send them all to the eternal hunting grounds, they will destroy their militarily ready and willing population for war, they will devastate their economy and infrastructure, and when the conflict is over - Ukrops will look like this..
    Bitter pill, defeat, cheap pussies, further attrition of the population, riots and internal political conflicts, etc.
    Yes true! They don't need the whole of Ukraine. But I think everything east of the Dnepr and Odessa. You must also think of the natural resources of Ukraine...better in Russian hands than in the hands of the Natzo dogs

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    Post  PapaDragon Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:08 pm

    Arrow wrote:Zelensky parades around Kherson.

    To victor the spoils



    Erk wrote:
    limb wrote:Peskov embarrassed Russia by saying that Kherson is Russian territory while zelensky is in Kherson.
    Why hasnt russia declared war yet? Why this circus. Russian civilians were killed on Belgorod. Whos behind not wanting war declared?
    The majority of Kherson Oblast is occupied by Russians.

    Perhaps you might want to try and be specific and say Kherson City instead of speaking half truths for propaganda.

    Legally speaking (or whatever passes for law in Russia after this) a Russian city is under control of foreign military (third world military I might add) and everyone pretends it's perfectly fine

    They should have never signed off on annexation of those territories if they weren't serious about keeping them

    In the meantime rest of Ukraine is still not in flames as repercussion for this



    Russians have just written open invitation for next war against them just like they did after Winter War

    Entire Ukraine should have been bled dry like a pig months ago as a warning to anyone looking to fight war against Russia, instead they made morons of themselves and told everyone that they have no intention of harming anyone trying to attack or exterminate them



    Whatever comes next they asked for it

    Losing Cold War to Americans is understandable

    Losing minor local conflict against Ukraine is inexcusable







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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:26 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Podlodka77 wrote:
    I am not a supporter of occupying a large territory and I think that a good part of Ukroshitstan is permanently poisoned and Russia does not need such garbage.
    Russia is doing exactly what it should, killing the military-capable population and thus demilitarizing Ukraine. If the Russians had taken all those cities immediately, they would have had far more Ukrops cells ready for terrorist attacks. This is how the Russians, with this way of conducting conflicts, will send them all to the eternal hunting grounds, they will destroy their militarily ready and willing population for war, they will devastate their economy and infrastructure, and when the conflict is over - Ukrops will look like this..
    Bitter pill, defeat, cheap pussies, further attrition of the population, riots and internal political conflicts, etc.
    Yes true! They don't need the whole of Ukraine. But I think everything east of the Dnepr and Odessa. You must also think of the natural resources of Ukraine...better in Russian hands than in the hands of the Natzo dogs

    I have my doubts about that and I think that all the Russians are doing is not to allow the entry of the NATO pact into Ukroshitstan.
    When and where did you hear the story of a Russian official about taking Odessa?
    I keep reading that on the forum but I haven't heard any Russian official say that.
    It's one thing that NATO doesn't get in there, because the Russians would fire up all possible weapons in that case (literally), and it's another thing to sacrifice the Russian soliders for a city where 70% of the population declares itself as Ukroshitstans.
    The Russians only want to kill Nazis, as far as I can see, while the territory is obviously irrelevant. I REPEAT, the Bolsheviks laid the foundation that over the past 100 years has made Ukroshitstans out of many former Russian families and Russians - the damage is done.
    The Russians will take what is economically profitable and sustainable, so Russia should not accept a population that would be worse in the future than russian liberals.

    I only want Russia to kill as many of those Ukroshitstans who are ready and willing to go against Russia with a rifle. As an Orthodox, I despise Ukroshitstan, and they are not "Russian brothers" but scum that should be mercilessly trampled on. The one who renounced his origin and his ancestors and wears Nazi tattoos - that scum should be killed.
    AND REMEMBER; defeat will bring even more damage than the damage they suffered during the conflict.


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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:34 pm

    famschopman wrote:I think the hardware isn't the issue. From what I have seen last week, the various people left in this region are (seemingly) happy to see the Ukraine troops entering. Whether propaganda or not but if Russia wants to succeed, they need to win the hearts and minds of the people to gain their support. If not, you will just end up with local resistance.

    No idea, the crowd that greeted the troops in Kherson was tiny

    Dunno how much of a crowd Zelensky drew, and have no mind to view the propaganda video to find out

    And I don't know how many people were evacuated or self-evacuated from Kherson to Russian territories over the past months

    At the beggining of the war there were large anti-Russian crowds in Kherson. You had pro-Russian people as well, mainly older ones, but certainly the active types were pro-Ukrainian.
    I saw quite a number of YouTube videos from people living in Kherson as well. Not pro-Ukraine activist types, just ordinary people. They were either pretty neutral or just withheld on commenting
    My impression is that enthusiasm for the Ukraine might have waned after people in Kherson realized that they've skipped the war, weren't subject to conscription, and are able to work and live as if not much was going on. Of course the attacks on the nuclear power plant and dam can't have won the Ukraine many supporters there.

    But there were still a considerable amount of both supporters and informants there. So it's anyone's guess.

    As for Kherson region, it also varies. Some villagers were vocal in support of Russian forces, without any 'activists' to keep tabs on them. Others were probably pro-Ukrainian.

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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:37 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Let the West think they can push some sort of deal or Minsk 3 through or anything that doesn't involve the Ukraine's capitulation to core Russian conditions of territorial recognition and neutrality - the only things that can actually maintain it free from anyone's troops moving forwards.

    And you guys incapable of thinking critically can assume the same if you would like

    Russia has absolutely nothing to gain from any sort of deal. Not lasting peace, not money, not a resumption of trade and relations - who will give it to Russia?

    Even if Russia gets that $300 billion back - so what? What it can it do with, if the sanctions all remain in place?
    And why bother with such pocket change, when what's on the line is the very value of the US Dollar itself and its place in the world financial system, among other things?

    You shriekers really are some psyops types.
    You're losing the plot, my man. If the best you can do are these stupid ad hominem accusations, better don't say anything.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:41 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:Let the West think they can push some sort of deal or Minsk 3 through or anything that doesn't involve the Ukraine's capitulation to core Russian conditions of territorial recognition and neutrality - the only things that can actually maintain it free from anyone's troops moving forwards.

    And you guys incapable of thinking critically can assume the same if you would like

    Russia has absolutely nothing to gain from any sort of deal. Not lasting peace, not money, not a resumption of trade and relations - who will give it to Russia?

    Even if Russia gets that $300 billion back - so what? What it can it do with, if the sanctions all remain in place?
    And why bother with such pocket change, when what's on the line is the very value of the US Dollar itself and its place in the world financial system, among other things?

    You shriekers really are some psyops types.
    You're losing the plot, my man. If the best you can do are these stupid ad hominem accusations, better don't say anything.

    I thought that about you even when your posts were in double digits and you can only imagine the horror of your over 1200 posts for the forum reader. Mad

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:42 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:You're losing the plot, my man. If the best you can do are these stupid ad hominem accusations, better don't say anything.

    I don't know, I really am honestly suspecting some sort of co-ordinated attack on this forum.
    When one angle doesn't work, they switch right to another one. The most inane accusations and absurd speculations. Shit being thrown on every wall in the hope that something will stick. And multiple accounts repeating the same things
    Adding to that I've already been personally accused of being some leading propagandist by one such post-24/02 member. FFS bitch, I enlighten people for free, my service to you.

    Lord knows why NATO would bother with this forum. Perhaps because it's enough for a web resource to be an accumulator of information. A place where people can verify facts and draw conclusions from them is a big no-no for the Western war propaganda effort.

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    Post  AlfaT8 Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:52 pm

    Still waiting for that offensice.
    Hope moscow doesn't fall for the "we are willing to negotiate" delay tactic from washington again.
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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:54 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    I don't know, I really am honestly suspecting some sort of co-ordinated attack on this forum.
    When one angle doesn't work, they switch right to another one. The most inane accusations and absurd speculations. Shit being thrown on every wall in the hope that something will stick. And multiple accounts repeating the same things
    Adding to that I've already been personally accused of being some leading propagandist by one such post-24/02 member. FFS bitch, I enlighten people for free, my service to you.

    Lord knows why NATO would bother with this forum. Perhaps because it's enough for a web resource to be an accumulator of information. A place where people can verify facts and draw conclusions from them is a big no-no for the Western war propaganda effort.
    Maybe, just maybe, you can entertain a thought that some people here are very unhappy with the way Russia is handling this whole thing.

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    Post  ucmvulcan Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:57 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Still waiting for that offensice.
    Hope moscow doesn't fall for the "we are willing to negotiate" delay tactic from washington again.

    I will only be disappointed if nothing happens before the spring thaw. Negotiations are fine as long as troops are drilling and training and put in place should the negotiations fail. A hard kick in the balls around Christmas could have a desired effect.

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:29 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    I don't know, I really am honestly suspecting some sort of co-ordinated attack on this forum.
    When one angle doesn't work, they switch right to another one. The most inane accusations and absurd speculations. Shit being thrown on every wall in the hope that something will stick. And multiple accounts repeating the same things
    Adding to that I've already been personally accused of being some leading propagandist by one such post-24/02 member. FFS bitch, I enlighten people for free, my service to you.

    Lord knows why NATO would bother with this forum. Perhaps because it's enough for a web resource to be an accumulator of information. A place where people can verify facts and draw conclusions from them is a big no-no for the Western war propaganda effort.
    Maybe, just maybe, you can entertain a thought that some people here are very unhappy with the way Russia is handling this whole thing.

    Handling what thing?
    The war?

    I assume its being handled it to the best knowledge and facts the military and political leadership have available to them.
    Which are a lot more facts than available to me

    I do not in my arrogance presume to 'advise' the commanders and the statesmen about what they should have done or where they went wrong, unless such has become the overwhelmingly most likely explanation

    Instead when I see a decision I don't understand, it makes sense to look for the reasons behind it - rather than calling for immediate carpet-bombing of Ukrainian cities like some are here.
    And I do see mistakes, but mostly at a lower level, to do with some tactics or equipment, and the main thing is that they get corrected. About advances or withdrawals from whatever area I simply don't have the competence or information to judge whether they are mistakes or genius moves one way or the other. I don't have a detailed map of the front, nevermind any intelligence information, political considerations, obligations promised to foreign countries or anything of the sort.
    And so much happens behind the scenes that it's futile to even try. For all we know the Ukraine/NATO threatened that Russian troops in Pridnestrovie will be attacked if Russia doesn't withdraw from Kherson - and since Russia isn't currently deployed to quickly advance to Odessa and relieve them - it will have no choice but to comply until it can gather sufficient forces in the southern front. Just an example, most likely not an accurate one before anyone starts screeching. There are too many factors to account for and a person at our level simply won't be able to give a meaningful appraisal.

    In my mind, as long as our casualties are being minimized, then things are going according to plan, as that's to me the best metric there is to judge how well the forces are being led.
    If we start to take large casualties, in return for some advances that are ultimately rescinded anyway like the one on Kiev was - then that on the contrary is a sign that things are going wrong and there is incompetence afoot.

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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:49 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32 - Page 21 Img_2069
    Rybar's analysis on usage of Lancet drones.
    https://t.me/rybar/41144

    ✈🇷🇺🇺🇦 About the results of the use of Lancet drones in the NWO

    October and November were marked by many videos of the combat use of ZALA's Lancet kamikaze drones.

    Based on data from open sources and materials from @Lostarmour, we analyzed the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from drone strikes from October 13 to November 12.

    The list includes only equipment, the footage of the defeat of which is freely available. It especially highlights:

    ➖11 towed howitzers M777, FH-70, Msta-B and D-20 (all but one destroyed),
    ➖7 tanks T-64, T-72, T-80BV (1 destroyed, the rest damaged),
    ➖7 Acacia, Gvozdika, M109 and Krab self-propelled guns (2 destroyed, the rest damaged),
    ➖6 armored vehicles BMP-1/2, BTR-60, XA-180, M1151 and GAAI Amir (all destroyed),
    ➖4 air defense systems "Buk", "Osa" and "Strela-10M" (2 destroyed, 2 damaged),
    ➖5 radar stations 36D6 and P-18 (all but one were destroyed),
    ➖3 S-300 launchers (2 destroyed, 1 damaged),
    ➖1 Gyurza-M armored boat (damaged).

    What conclusions can be drawn from the objective data on the use of the Lancets?

    🔻Drones have shown high efficiency in pinpointing air defense systems and radars. The RF Armed Forces also successfully used UAVs for counter-battery combat, depriving the Armed Forces of Ukraine of almost a dozen Western guns.

    🔻Even the Lancet with a HEAT warhead is not enough to guarantee the destruction of heavy armored vehicles. Of the 14 such machines, only 3 were completely disabled.

    🔻However, even vehicles damaged by the Lancets are temporarily unable to perform combat missions due to the need for repairs.

    The massive use of "Lancets" in a narrow area can deprive the enemy of artillery, air defense or disrupt logistics.

    Therefore, it is already now necessary not only to saturate the troops with them, but also to determine a special place for loitering ammunition in the organizational structure of units.

    Otherwise, the "Lancets" will remain the prerogative of individual detachments, in which their mass use at the front will be impossible.

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    Post  caveat emptor Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:10 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    caveat emptor wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    I don't know, I really am honestly suspecting some sort of co-ordinated attack on this forum.
    When one angle doesn't work, they switch right to another one. The most inane accusations and absurd speculations. Shit being thrown on every wall in the hope that something will stick. And multiple accounts repeating the same things
    Adding to that I've already been personally accused of being some leading propagandist by one such post-24/02 member. FFS bitch, I enlighten people for free, my service to you.

    Lord knows why NATO would bother with this forum. Perhaps because it's enough for a web resource to be an accumulator of information. A place where people can verify facts and draw conclusions from them is a big no-no for the Western war propaganda effort.
    Maybe, just maybe, you can entertain a thought that some people here are very unhappy with the way Russia is handling this whole thing.

    Handling what thing?
    The war?

    I assume its being handled it to the best knowledge and facts the military and political leadership have available to them.
    Which are a lot more facts than available to me

    I do not in my arrogance presume to 'advise' the commanders and the statesmen about what they should have done or where they went wrong, unless such has become the overwhelmingly most likely explanation

    Instead when I see a decision I don't understand, it makes sense to look for the reasons behind it - rather than calling for immediate carpet-bombing of Ukrainian cities like some are here.
    And I do see mistakes, but mostly at a lower level, to do with some tactics or equipment, and the main thing is that they get corrected. About advances or withdrawals from whatever area I simply don't have the competence or information to judge whether they are mistakes or genius moves one way or the other. I don't have a detailed map of the front, nevermind any intelligence information, political considerations, obligations promised to foreign countries or anything of the sort.

    In my mind, as long as our casualties are being minimized, then things are going according to plan, as that's to me the best metric there is to judge how well the forces are being led.
    If we start to take large casualties, in return for some advances that are ultimately rescinded anyway like the one on Kiev was - then that on the contrary is a sign that things are going wrong and there is incompetence afoot.
    It is an emotional response to a highly emotion driven event, such is war. 
    Assigning some higher meaning ( NATO trolls, TsIPso or whatever) to gibberish ramblings on a obscure forum is something I would definitely call emotional response. We are mostly shooting shit, if you will, and venting out. 
    On a personal note, my opinion on inadequacy of Russian governmental and bureaucratic structures is well known. I thought that army structures were, for better part, shielded from same problems, but I am not so sure anymore.
    billybatts91
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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:34 pm

    So now we know that the Kherson retreat was part of some deal lol....pathetic.

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:36 pm

    Stoltenberg today:

    "We must not make the mistake of underestimating Russia. The Russian army is strong and numerous. The coming months will be tough. What we must do is to strengthen the position of Ukraine. The only way to resolve the Russian-Ukrainian conflict is on the battlefield. Many wars have been decided at the negotiating table, but this is not the case.”

    There we go. Straight from the horse's mouth. There will be no "Minsk-3". Now can you doomers finally kindly STFU about it? Thanks

    GarryB, psg, Werewolf, d_taddei2, Big_Gazza, kvs, MMBR and like this post

    billybatts91
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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:37 pm

    Ukraine just keeps advancing though...

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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:40 pm

    flamming_python wrote:Stoltenberg today:

    "We must not make the mistake of underestimating Russia. The Russian army is strong and numerous. The coming months will be tough. What we must do is to strengthen the position of Ukraine. The only way to resolve the Russian-Ukrainian conflict is on the battlefield. Many wars have been decided at the negotiating table, but this is not the case.”

    There we go. Straight from the horse's mouth. There will be no "Minsk-3". Now can you doomers finally kindly STFU about it? Thanks

    lol, doesn't matter what this mouthpiece says. If America wants to offer a Minsk 3 type of deal to Russia, then it will go that way. Stoltenberg doesn't have actual real power or sway to continue something that America doesn't want to continue, if America chooses to actually go down that route.
    billybatts91
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    Post  billybatts91 Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:51 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    Arrow wrote:Zelensky parades around Kherson.
    Sure some kind of deal looming. Russia positions are just on the other side of the Dnepr only 2 km away, they could bomb the shit out of the area!
    Yes a deal is coming soon...but not related to the Ukraine war, but an exchange of prisoners (Brittney Griner etc). Official statement!

    Nope. You think they're gonna have some talks just over some stupid WNBA player lol? Perfect timing to retreat from Kherson and all of a sudden have "talks" with Americans a few days later. Put the two and two together and what do you get? This is not hard to figure out. And as another poster said before. Russian leadership has claimed that Kherson is Russian territory and any attack on it will be considered the same as if a region in Russia proper was attacked. Well, that was a total lie it seems. Why hasn't Russia responded forcefully? Cause this retreat was all part of some deal to start negotiations. It makes too much sense. It puts the pieces of the puzzle together. Why would Russia just walk away from Kherson like they did even though they were more than capable of defending that territory and were having great success in doing so? Clearly talks are on-going and have been for the past few weeks. The retreat I'm sure is one of the prerequisites. All the people saying otherwise will have egg on their face when the truth is revealed. I wonder what their explanation will be.


    Last edited by billybatts91 on Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Mon Nov 14, 2022 6:58 pm

    Making a deal would be bad for the russians not only does that make them appear weak, which hey if you got forced into an agreement by Ukraine....one has to wonder but it completely ruins the army's rep and makes countries less worried about Russia and willing to ally with them and frankly far to much to even mention.

    It would have serve consequences, Russia had put itself in a position where it cannot lose this war because losing it would have catastrophic effects for decades if not centuries.

    That is the situation here for them pure and simple and there is no other alternative its come to that.


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