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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #32

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:49 am

    How superior in the third decade of the XXI century do you expect something that is powered by Pentium processors? Laughing
    Fog&mirrors, all over the place.
    And some fall into that trap, or just sit in a cage reminding the passed charm&glory.
    It is the past.
    The list of 10 biggest container ports - a bulk of global trade - has ONE western port - the Rotterdam at 10th (!!) place.
    All of the remaining 9 are Asian, and SEVEN are Chinese.
    One single port from the USA hardly catches in the top 20.
    Global trade is Asian. The myth of wealthy western world buying shitty products from China is dead. But I do understand why some Westerners have mental issues to admit that, especially ones living in failed colonial empires.

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    Post  Arrow Mon Nov 14, 2022 10:52 am

    The new world is the east with China at the top. Russia could by it's potential to produce and provide products, resources, intelligenzia and innovation shadow that of China, but we would need a population of above 500 mln. wrote:

    Russia still retains its superpower status. They lack demographics but remain the largest country in the world with access to many seas and the Arctic Ocean, controlling the Northern Sea Route. They remain a military power with the largest and most modern nuclear arsenal. They develop many technologies, they are one of the most self-sufficient countries in the world. In addition, they have a chance to be the 4th economy in the world, even though they only have about 150 million people Very Happy

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    Post  GarryB Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:21 pm

    Just like Putin had his max term limit coming up.

    A term limit written by Americans... when in the entire history of Russia has there ever been any laws limiting how many years a leader can be leader?

    No such law here in New Zealand or in the UK even... only corrupt America has such rules...

    All he had to do to get around that was declare that his terms are magically resetting to zero and let's hold a referendum to affirm that. A referendum no-one I knew went to other than myself and that he won. Now you might say there was an understandable reason for such measures - namely this confrontation with the West coming up and the need to preserve stability. But it doesn't change the fact that the constitution was used as toilet paper

    Your constitution was written with advise from American advisors and is more like a US constitution than a Russian one.

    Not allowing Putin to continue in power because of a rule is stupid... let the people decide and don't eliminate options on arbitrary rules an enemy wrote for you.

    Or take the same Kherson, a pro-Ukro city, even if only mildly, that didn't join in with the anti-Maidan uprising back in 2014.
    Because it was judged necessary to achieve greater leverage in any future negotiations and send a message - a referendum was organized there and it magically became part of Russia too.

    This is not Western propaganda, this is the way Russia works and its political elites' own attitude to all aspects of its statehood that are written down somewhere on paper. That they can be changed without notice as per expediency.

    The real world works that way... land does not get a vote... the people living on it do... those are the wests rules in Kosovo and Falklands Islands... but apparently not in the Crimea or any part of Ukraine whose borders are somehow sacred and cannot be changed.

    Russia is allowing free and fair referendums... if the people vote then let their voices be heard and RESPECTED.

    I understand the EU and HATO don't respect votes that don't go their way... lose a vote and increase the propaganda and threats and then hold another vote again...

    That Russia simply arbitrarily decided to hand that territory back over just as it took it in the first place, betraying promises to those locals that are loyal to them (even if offered evacuation from their homeland), and assassinating the deputy governor they themselves had installed.

    Well after the assassination of Queen Elizabeth the second I can imaging the Brits will be wound up too... you are worse than Ark... WTF are you talking about handing any land back to the nazis? It has only happened in your head.

    Car accidents actually happen and deaths in war zones don't have to be planned and executed by the Kremlin.

    I'm not saying that's how it is BTW. I'm far from convinced that guy is even dead; the report of which sounding so strange that it was part of what convinced me that this whole Kherson pullout is part of a greater deception or trap. But if he is dead, just how the hell is Moscow supposed to ever find somebody to work with them on any territory ever again?

    Obviously take away their Car Keys...   Rolling Eyes

    And if they are fucking selling out those people then they don't need to work with anyone there anyway... but the obvious question would be... why mobilise more troops if you intend to fold like a bitch?

    The west is feeling real pain and that pain is only getting worse... Putin has already created inflation in the UK, and no doubt inflation in other western countries is his doing too, so it will take time to get some real results so what exactly is the hurry to make deals and sell friends and new allies out... except if you are a pro Zelensky faggot trying curry points with your new paymasters... or as the west would say you are just a useful idiot... unpaid.

    In this case, we're talking about morale on the home-front - and here perceptions are more important than reality, especially as no-one is doing a convincing job explaining reality.

    The problem there would be that explaining your carefully planned and hopefully well executed trap or just plan for moving forward and putting the enemy under enough pressure that they surrender would also ruin those same plans and render them useless.

    Your country voted him in to do a job... how about you lot shut the **** up and let him do it... wait till he actually fails before crying like little girls and I mean when the Russian military reports the failures... not the nazi bots on telegram pretending to be Russian conscript soldiers hunkered down on the front line.

    And from this standpoint, Russia is its own worst enemy

    NO. Some stupid fucking Russians are Russias own worst enemy.

    But the timing is bad, and again, perceptions play their own role.

    **** perceptions and shove them up Bidens Arse...

    The perception that Russia is winning with 500K Russian soldiers dead is not better than what you currently have... perceptions are meaningless and useless except on the internet... you keep forgetting that.


    Well, technically, if youre unable to supply a bridghead due to the enemy bombarding bridges too much, thats still a military defeat, just one not on the frontline.

    No. Are you stupid? I guess the lack of a D day assault on France before 1944 means the western allies were defeated every day of the war leading up to the D day invasion.

    Being unable to supply a bridgehead is only a defeat if you are fucking stupid enough to rely on that dodgy bridgehead and they defeat the troops you are trying to support because they could not be properly supported.

    Avoiding a stupid defeat by ignoring pride or idiots on the internet is actually something the west would currently probably be incapable of.

    Posted a couple of months past some interesting numbers concerning services versus production for Western economies and developing economies. The USA was 78% services and only 22% production versus China which was 56% services and 44% production. The average Western economy was 75% services and 25% production. If I remember correctly Russia was 58% services and 42% production.

    The funny thing is that if the western economies collapse those high paid hedge fund managers and bank managers will remain in the service industry... but instead of being in big expensive offices they will be providing "services" in carparks and secluded back streets...    Shocked

    Two R-73 under the wing, two RVV-SD under the engine nacelle, two R-37M under the centerplane and Kh-31P ?

    I haven't seen an enormous number of photos of MiG-31s with R-37s even though they use them, but when they were first deployed the makers always said they were for new generation Russian fighters... and at that time they often listed them as being MiG-35, Su-35, and Yak-141 and the new next gen 5th gen fighter.

    Well after all these decades we have not seen the R-37 near Su-35s or MiG-35s, so that claim has always been questioned by many, but now it is pretty clear it was true.

    Note the 400km range of the missile requires a high speed high altitude launch that planes other than the MiG-31 would struggle with, but a 300km range should be expected, and such a missile is intended for use against enemy AWACS and enemy transport planes and enemy inflight refuelling tankers so even with a MiG-35s radar detecting an enemy AWACS plane should not be difficult at extended ranges if it is scanning.

    The missile is fully ARH so it just needs to know the general location of the target and be launched in that direction...

    NOTE: so a break would be nice Rolling Eyes

    NYT: Winter break in conflict in Ukraine could last up to six months

    Hahaha... yeah, because Russian forces don't like to fight in the winter... too cold.

    And ll the gun loving Trumpistas are looking at it with their dicks in their hands and their eyes set on 2024 already - not for a small part due to the GOP being complete sell outs, many completely bought off by the System.

    The more they think their elections are getting stolen from them and they are abused by the democraps... well... where does that path lead?

    Everybody with half a brain saw this coming from miles away. People just don't want to see/admit the system is completely broken - because that would require action and Americans are scared of that, unless it incorporates bitching online of course.

    The only fix is a civil war and they need a lot more pressure and tension for that...

    Defeatists say Russia will withdraw from the rest of Kherson Oblast by the end of the year as reinforcements are underway on the border with Crimea. They also claim that leaving Kherson is part of some sort of deal. This is quite an absurd statement.

    Defeatists always know exactly what is happening... because they make it all up for themselves... start rumours and then disappear and enjoy the damage they do.

    Sparta has shown us that the ideal trench clearing tool is aquadcopter with flir dropping grenades or preferably mortar shells.A rudimentary CCIP would be extremely useful too. Why hasnt russian industry started serially producing such quadcopters? Theres such prototypes since may at the army expos and the wagner building has displayed some. Why arent they being mass produced yet?

    What makes you think they aren't being mass produced?

    They already showed what appeared to be 40mm grenades of double normal length with plastic tail fins added for use from drones... a few PG-7 rockets with the safety fuse caps removed would be very effective against troops and armour.

    90% of their drones are shot down after a few minutes. Waste of white paint.

    Operating drones it would be hard to work out what is friendly territory and what is enemy held and presumably enemy drones would need to fly over friendly forces to get to enemy forces to get shot down so markings like that would stop friendly drone operators jumping the gun so to speak.

    If a large counter offensive by Russia doesn't happen this winter, this war is over. Important next few weeks and months coming up.

    Mommy and Daddy... if I don't get a pony this Christmas I am going to run away from home and try to find a mommy and daddy who actually love me and will treat me like the princess that I am.

    Thinking like this and underestimating the enemy is why Russia is on the brink of a humiliating defeat if drastic measures aren't taken soon to actually compete in this war.

    Humiliating to whom? The west hates their guts and wants them dead and wants the rest of the world to hate them too... but that is not working.

    Putins job is not to impress internet warriors like yourself... the fact that you claim he is doing a bad job when you don't know what he is doing just shows you up as the enemy... or an idiot the enemy finds useful.

    Last time I was told that water from the dam is in the process of being released, its been at least 4 weeks since then, how long does it take for the entire dam water level to be emptied? Its as if its taking forever, If this is the case then just blow the entire dam and be done with it

    That dam probably took years to fill and you think you can empty it in a few weeks?

    Blowing the dam is what the Russian forces withdrew to avoid.

    If the Ukrainians move enormous forces into the flood zone then blow the dam yourself but I doubt they are that stupid... I also thought Saakashvili would not be stupid enough to attack VDV troops in South Ossetia and I was wrong there too, but blowing the dam up with no reason to do so makes no sense.

    We are talking about how the J-20 might lack this or that, but the missing point is that they are capable and mature enough to be produced in dozens. A quantity is a quality of its own, as Stalin said once - nothing changed.

    If it kills the pilot by suffocation but can use its after burner for more than 90 seconds and the tail does not fall off then it is better than the F-35... the problem with the problems with the F-35 is that rather than fixing the problems they just shift the goal posts and make it pass where before it failed.

    If the oxygen system supplies breathable air for 40 minutes the limit all combat flights to 38 minutes or less and the problem is dealt with... but not solved.

    That looks to me like Ukrainian going to fortify the city and make it fire control just like Avdeevka.

    If they withdraw their own civilians then encirclement and siege for the next 10 months would be the easiest way of dealing with them... all the while picking off anything that pops its head up with suicide drones.

    It will get worse in Russia too.

    They can put up with a bit more hardship than the west... and for them it will be well worth it.

    Western hardship mostly comes from most of the wealth of the west being funneled into a very small number of pockets of already very rich people... if that does not change then there is no hope for the west.

    And about those millions "lost", a lot of them are coming back. With Russia constantly retreating and looking weak, Ukranians aren't even that scared anymore. They'll put up with the occasional rocket/drone attacks in cities...they're used to it by now.

    Used to what... a few weeks of the lights being off... they haven't seen even a fraction of what their fellow countrymen have had to deal with for the last 8 years... that is coming next... it is good they are coming home to enjoy that...

    Sounds like they want to repopulate their country so then they can retreat and get votes in referendums and win that way...

    It would be their only chance of winning.

    Ukraine already planning the next offensive, apparently 50 thousand troops are in this area ready to attack very soon. This is what retreating gets you smh..."But but but......we retreated for better defensive positions" lol.

    Are you not paying attention Billy... the Russians previously retreated in places where their forces were thin... the Orcs with HATO support probably located such areas and chose those places specifically for their attacks... a common sense thing to do.

    But now they have more men and that means more gunners and more loaders and more weapons pointed at the enemy, so they are much better equipped to fend off a cannon fodder attack and with the civilians mostly moved out of the area they can shell and bomb the crap out of any areas behind the front line delivering rockets or artillery shells to support their operations as well as drones to blunt attacks.

    Let them attack... that is a good way to kill them in large numbers... men crossing open terrain in large numbers are ideal targets for artillery and air power and well positioned ground forces.

    Don't say I didn't tell you so! I already said this months ago

    Yes, you supported the nazis before so it makes sense you still support them because obviously nothing has changed and a new force of 50K marching through terrain prone to flooding below dams the Russians control is of course going to be successful where a month ago a force of 30K gained a little ground and then got pushed back in most places they took mainly because most places they took were empty undefended areas.

    Now they have started to use suicide drones in large numbers and have send rather large numbers of troops to the front to reinforce it...

    Who knows what will happen...

    To expect Ukraine to roll over from blackouts and lack of heat is hilarious

    Nobody expected them to roll over due to lack of heat now... it isn't cold yet...


    Winners will deliver the goods, losers willd drop you cold, we learned that the hard way and nobody is in the mood for refresher course, we had more than enough of those

    Well at least it hasn't made you bitter.

    The hysterical optimists on this forum

    Hysterical?

    You are the one claiming Russia is losing if they don't mount some suicide charge immediately and show those guys on telegram how tough they are...

    Trump was as dumb as you too... he went into power promising cooperation with Russia where it made sense for the US and his political opposition goaded him in to putting more sanctions on Russia than any previous US president... and that was without this conflict to justify those sanctions.

    Cry and moan and bitch about how Russia is letting the enemy win... suck that American nipple... ignore they are blue and ice cold and belong to Hilary Clinton... and her ilk...

    And what good are such "feel good" memes ?

    What good are Odysee videos by comrade wolf ?

    What good are the Clownish music videos posted by podlodka?

    What good are the token support by western outcasts?

    When there are no facts or made up facts that have not been refuted from the doomsayers then memes can be amusing.

    Seems that flag BS was just BS... what a shock... but on to the next obvious piece of evidence that Putin is a woman stuck in a mans body screaming for the west to win this new cold war and save him... he is now post op so you wont see him with his shirt off... Rolling Eyes

    Token support from the outcasts of the west reminds Russia they are right and butthurt censored  from Serbia and even from Russia itself should be ignored when they are clearly wrong.

    I guess you come from families where your parents thought motivation comes from verbal abuse and you can only be independent when you abandon your family and try to survive on your own.

    Yes and no! If there really is a plan behind it and the Russian troops suffer far fewer casualties then the strategy can be successful. But if there is no plan behind the withdrawal, but weaknesses in the army or the political leadership, then Russia can also lose the war.

    And how likely is it that they didn't have any plans at all and so the reaction was... lets run away and then make a plan...?

    The problem is...we don't know the real reasons! For the Fanbois there is a sophisticated 5D master plan behind it for the Dommer the war is already lost. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle...yeah, it's not all happening in the Russian army, but I think they really have a plan.

    Yes... of course... you genius... because the best plans are fucking obvious and any person with the slightest interest in the military on an internet forum can immediately work out what their plans are... but you are still wrong, because plans have to be flexible and often plans rely on certain factors like mobility on the terrain... flooded or frozen effects mobility which effects which plans will or will not work. Equally what the enemy does also effects the plan... do they move in enormous forces for their own attack on your new lines or are they more cautious and hold back... each choice requires different plans... if they move forward then encirclement and siege over winter might be the best option... if they hold back then strikes on their forces located in the rear might be the best choice... kill them out in the open in winter conditions.

    But no, lets joke about 12D chess master Putin because ridiculing leaders is what the fucked up west does... but they are likely only half joking if you compare the economy and political and military situations in the west and in Russia...


    Here's my question, good combat engineers are at a premium, why don't the Russians just crater Kherson, if they got all the people who want out, out of the city why not make it look like something on the moon? Also, if Russia is on the high ground why not open the dam and give the dirty nazis a bath?

    Why shell mostly empty buildings... why waste ammo when it is better used on real targets?

    Then there's the Russia is digging in and not going to attack, the NYT and Pentagram expect a lull in the fighting until spring.

    Russia never said it wasn't going to attack.

    50000 ukrainian troops are planning to attack zaporozhie. Does the russian army have enough troops to withstand this? Are there any fortifications there?

    If you know, they probably know too... just pick the biggest areas of open field they would have to cross and drop some FOABs on them somewhere away from urban areas... and then TOS the rest... and then smerch with HE fragmentation munitions along their paths of retreat.

    Why would Russia want to harm poor little Ukrainian troops? Apparently that's not the point of this war lol...Retreating and doing nothing is easier ha ha ha.

    Which clearly shows you are not listening properly. Ukrainian civilians deaths should be avoided where possible... Ukrainian troops not surrendering should be taken out.

    lsos wrote:

    US softpower is way better than chinese still today.

    Russia is forcing the US to use its soft power more and more and just like using the US dollar as a weapon, they are more powerful when they are not used because using them often breaks them.

    The new world is the east with China at the top. Russia could by it's potential to produce and provide products, resources, intelligenzia and innovation shadow that of China, but we would need a population of above 500 mln. wrote:

    If Russian was easier to speak I would think they might get a few more arrivals over the next decade or so from Europe... depending on how cold it gets.

    Wouldn't it be a funny time for the gulf stream to suddenly stop and things get really cold...

    Any truth to new direct talks in Turkey between Russia and Ukrainian delegates?

    Ukrainian law stipulates not negotiations with Putin led Russia so no.


    Last edited by GarryB on Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  sundoesntrise Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:31 pm

    Any truth to new direct talks in Turkey between Russia and US (and/or) Ukrainian delegates?


    Last edited by sundoesntrise on Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Arrow Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:31 pm

    VDV activities in the south. It was a meat grinder for the AU army, but after the withdrawal from Kherson, it ended, which many soldiers reportedly do not understand.

    https://vk.com/komdiv76?z=video-2499828_456241501%2F00bd394c5d62cc16b6%2Fpl_wall_-2499828
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    Post  Azi Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:35 pm

    sundoesntrise wrote:Any truth to new direct talks in Turkey between Russia and Ukrainian delegates?
    No! It's between Russia and USA directly. So most likely a peace deal will be signed soon and the retreat of the right bank was part of some kind of precondition and goodwill. The basis of the deal is the Sullivan formula.

    We don't know how serious the negotiations are. Zelensky spoke out in favor of peace today after having vehemently opposed something like that days earlier. If Russia agreed to the deal, it would be a surrender. Ukraine would strengthen its position, officially switch to NATO standards, and military operations in the future will become many times more difficult....and by the way Russia will lose the entire ukranian population, they will be more hostile for centuries than the Poles ever were.

    It can also be a diversion to reassure Ukraine and her masters in the US.


    Last edited by Azi on Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Azi Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:39 pm

    Arrow wrote:VDV activities in the south. It was a meat grinder for the AU army, but after the withdrawal from Kherson, it ended, which many soldiers reportedly do not understand.

    https://vk.com/komdiv76?z=video-2499828_456241501%2F00bd394c5d62cc16b6%2Fpl_wall_-2499828
    It was a perfect meat grinder. In Kherson they had the best loss ratio compared to Ukraine. The landscape is flat with little cover...the air force and artillery were able to work very well here.

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    Post  sundoesntrise Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:45 pm

    Azi wrote:
    sundoesntrise wrote:Any truth to new direct talks in Turkey between Russia and Ukrainian delegates?
    No! It's between Russia and USA directly. So most likely a peace deal will be signed soon and the retreat of the right bank was part of some kind of precondition and goodwill. The basis of the deal is the Sullivan formula.

    We don't know how serious the negotiations are. Zelensky spoke out in favor of peace today after having vehemently opposed something like that days earlier. If Russia agreed to the deal, it would be a surrender. Ukraine would strengthen its position, officially switch to NATO standards, and military operations in the future will become many times more difficult....and by the way Russia will lose the entire ukranian population, they will be more hostile for centuries than the Poles ever were.

    It can also be a diversion to reassure Ukraine and her masters in the US.

    Yeah I changed it before you replied, but the rumours of a looming peacedeal with the Kherson withdrawal being part of that was the first thing that instantly popped up in my mind as well.
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    Post  Arrow Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:13 pm

    Zelensky parades around Kherson.

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    Post  Azi Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:18 pm

    sundoesntrise wrote:
    Azi wrote:
    sundoesntrise wrote:Any truth to new direct talks in Turkey between Russia and Ukrainian delegates?
    No! It's between Russia and USA directly. So most likely a peace deal will be signed soon and the retreat of the right bank was part of some kind of precondition and goodwill. The basis of the deal is the Sullivan formula.

    We don't know how serious the negotiations are. Zelensky spoke out in favor of peace today after having vehemently opposed something like that days earlier. If Russia agreed to the deal, it would be a surrender. Ukraine would strengthen its position, officially switch to NATO standards, and military operations in the future will become many times more difficult....and by the way Russia will lose the entire ukranian population, they will be more hostile for centuries than the Poles ever were.

    It can also be a diversion to reassure Ukraine and her masters in the US.

    Yeah I changed it before you replied, but the rumours of a looming peacedeal with the Kherson withdrawal being part of that was the first thing that instantly popped up in my mind as well.
    I was too harsh with my statement. A deal would make sense...I think it's very likely (85 %).

    Russia has currently lost a little over $300 billion in wealth in the west, even if they paid a reparation under the Sullivan formula of $50 billion, you would get back $250 billion and the oligarchs' assets would be released again. $250 billion is a lot of money! You shouldn't underestimate that. With sanctions lifted or relaxed, assets recovered and territorial gains, it's even a small win for Russia. And we know Putin acts absolutely rationally and this is very rational.

    Whether the conflict will be resolved in the long term is questionable, maybe it's just a kind of Minsk 3, a frozen conflict. If I were Putin, I'd sign the deal, get the money back, and pop it back on the battlefield in 2024!


    Last edited by Azi on Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:23 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Azi Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:20 pm

    Arrow wrote:Zelensky parades around Kherson.
    Sure some kind of deal looming. Russia positions are just on the other side of the Dnepr only 2 km away, they could bomb the shit out of the area!
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    Post  limb Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:55 pm

    Peskov embarrassed Russia by saying that Kherson is Russian territory while zelensky is in Kherson.

    Why hasnt russia declared war yet? Why this circus. Russian civilians were killed on Belgorod. Whos behind not wanting war declared?

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:00 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:We are playing the game as best as we can and considering how much of a crater Russia has blown in our entire foreign policy and diplomatic and security situation I'd say we are doing better than anyone could have hoped for, me first and foremost

    We already know what it's like to not be sovereign nation thanks primarily to putting faith in Russia

    We already ate worse things than bugs (or wished we at least had bugs to eat) thanks to putting faith in Russia

    We already owned​ nothing before so it's not a new experience, again thanks to putting faith in Russia

    As for migrants we already have them and we would all gladly take migrants​ over our neighbors any day of the week

    Russia torched it's reputation here long ago, all that's left is nostalgia which they have been cruising on ever since the 90s

    Whatever little boost in status they gotten after Syria has been shredded the moment they started pussyfooting and being manhandled by bunch of apes

    All that Russia gets here these days are eyerolls and scoffs

    It's not Ukrainians​ who are building defensive positions, it's Russians

    It's not Ukrainians​ who are running away, it's Russians

    It's not Ukrainians​ who are blowing up bridges behind them, it's Russians

    It's not Ukrainians who are losing territory, it's Russians

    It's not Russians who are entering conquered cities as heroes, it's Ukrainians

    We have been on the "right side of history" for over a century and we got nothing but suffering for our trouble and I seriously doubt that Russia with it's current approach will be able to deliver anything other than usual this time so ditching the losers and doing the smart thing this time is seen as very desirable approach

    Local fanboys, cultists and tankies are online and on the talk shows doing their very best trying​ to sell the old approach yet again but nobody is stupid enough to buy it anymore

    Winners will deliver the goods, losers willd drop you cold, we learned that the hard way and nobody is in the mood for refresher course, we had more than enough of those

    Indeed winners will deliver the goods, and no-one engaged in this war on our side has any intention of doing anything other than winning. Where on Earth you got it into your head that Russia is going to surrender to the West I don't know. If it wanted to do that it wouldn't have started the operation.
    What it's not willing to expend the effort on, is appearances, nor any invincibility cults, glorious assaults, showmanship or any such popularity contest. Leave that to the Ukraine and to NATO and let them sacrifice the men for it.

    It's your patience and attention span that's the problem. Let them fight the war without your remarks. It's not a popularity contest.

    And if you want to jump ship so jump ship. Why threaten and not do?

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:11 pm

    Azi wrote:

    Russia has currently lost a little over $300 billion in wealth in the west, even if they paid a reparation under the Sullivan formula of $50 billion, you would get back $250 billion and the oligarchs' assets would be released again. $250 billion is a lot of money! You shouldn't underestimate that. With sanctions lifted or relaxed, assets recovered and territorial gains, it's even a small win for Russia. And we know Putin acts absolutely rationally and this is very rational.

    so Russia would still have NATO in Odessa/nukes in near Belgorod and bio warfare labs in Kharkov? if Putin wants Russia to commit suicide then yes Russians will sign such a treaty. and constant terroist attacks including viral infection. The wave of nazi type ruso-phobia wouldnt go nowhere.




    Azi wrote:
    Whether the conflict will be resolved in the long term is questionable, maybe it's just a kind of Minsk 3, a frozen conflict. If I were Putin, I'd sign the deal, get the money back, and pop it back on the battlefield in 2024!

    so you assume western negotiators dont have an agenda and they are gullible toads? interesting but imho unlikely


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    Post  Erk Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:12 pm

    limb wrote:Peskov embarrassed Russia by saying that Kherson is Russian territory while zelensky is in Kherson.

    Why hasnt russia declared war yet? Why this circus. Russian civilians were killed on Belgorod. Whos behind not wanting war declared?

    The majority of Kherson Oblast is occupied by Russians.

    Perhaps you might want to try and be specific and say Kherson City instead of speaking half truths for propaganda.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:14 pm

    limb wrote:Peskov embarrassed Russia by saying that Kherson is Russian territory while zelensky is in Kherson.


    Hitler was in Smolensk in 1943 so what?


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:15 pm

    Let the West think they can push some sort of deal or Minsk 3 through or anything that doesn't involve the Ukraine's capitulation to core Russian conditions of territorial recognition and neutrality - the only things that can actually maintain it free from anyone's troops moving forwards.

    And you guys incapable of thinking critically can assume the same if you would like

    Russia has absolutely nothing to gain from any sort of deal. Not lasting peace, not money, not a resumption of trade and relations - who will give it to Russia?

    Even if Russia gets that $300 billion back - so what? What it can it do with, if the sanctions all remain in place?
    And why bother with such pocket change, when what's on the line is the very value of the US Dollar itself and its place in the world financial system, among other things?

    You shriekers really are some psyops types.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

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    Post  ucmvulcan Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:15 pm

    Do you really think Putin is stupid enough to fall for a deal that would be political suicide. If so he is the most feckless and indecisive leader since Nikolas II. I don't see that character trait in him. A goodwill gesture can be done to encourage good faith dialogue but I don't see him as the sort to meekly lay his head down on the gallows they are erecting for him.

    My take is he is saying what sort of deal do you have? If you are serious this war could end by the time Biden pardons the other turkey for Thanksgiving. We also have 300-500 thousand so if you want to f around, we are more than capable of making sure you find out. Putin is not going to incinerate Europe or fight this war on any other terms but his own. If Ukraine abides by Minsk, stays neutral (its been about a week since I got booted from twatter but there were reports of UN peace keepers) and UN peacekeepers on the contact line might be the security assurance Z puppet wants, and does not join NATO and Russia gets all of LPR, DPR, and the parts of Zaprozhiye and Kherson that prevent Ukraine from cutting off power and water to Crimea then he has effectively achieved his war aims.

    Ukraine is mostly denazified and demilitarized, the future of Russia and Ukraine's separatists are far more secured, NATO is forced to give Russia, along with interest, what it wanted last winter and the alliance and EU gets a lot of egg on its face. Remember, Putin said he had no territorial aims on Ukraine. He still does not. Putin is basically saying, here is your chance to tap out because this deal is as good as its going to get for you.

    You want Kherson? Good, walk around Z man, if you don't accept this deal you aren't ever walking here again. You scrap this deal, well keep in mind we took 1/3 of your country with 100,000. We will soon have 400,000. Thats enough to take Odessa, everything east of the Dniepr, and make your life hell. Ball is in your court. I admit, I could be way off but I think that is where we are at regarding this war.

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:19 pm

    ucmvulcan wrote:Do you really think Putin is stupid enough to fall for a deal that would be political suicide.  If so he is the most feckless and indecisive leader since Nikolas II.  I don't see that character trait in him.  A goodwill gesture can be done to encourage good faith dialogue but I don't see him as the sort to meekly lay his head down on the gallows they are erecting for him.  

    My take is he is saying what sort of deal do you have? If you are serious this war could end by the time Biden pardons the other turkey for Thanksgiving.  We also have 300-500 thousand so if you want to f around, we are more than capable of making sure you find out.  Putin is not going to incinerate Europe or fight this war on any other terms but his own.  If Ukraine abides by Minsk, stays neutral (its been about a week since I got booted from twatter but there were reports of UN peace keepers) and UN peacekeepers on the contact line might be the security assurance Z puppet wants, and does not join NATO and Russia gets all of LPR, DPR, and the parts of Zaprozhiye and Kherson that prevent Ukraine from cutting off power and water to Crimea then he has effectively achieved his war aims.

    Ukraine is mostly denazified and demilitarized, the future of Russia and Ukraine's separatists are far more secured, NATO is forced to give Russia, along with interest, what it wanted last winter and the alliance and EU gets a lot of egg on its face.  Remember, Putin said he had no territorial aims on Ukraine.  He still does not.  Putin is basically saying, here is your chance to tap out because this deal is as good as its going to get for you.

    You want Kherson? Good, walk around Z man, if you don't accept this deal you aren't ever walking here again.  You scrap this deal, well keep in mind we took 1/3 of your country with 100,000.  We will soon have 400,000.  Thats enough to take Odessa, everything east of the Dniepr, and make your life hell.  Ball is in your court.  I admit, I could be way off but I think that is where we are at regarding this war.

    I agree except there will be no UN peacekeepers or any such sneaky tricks

    Nor a 'frozen conflict' over the Donbass, Crimea and other lands. It's either accepted they are not part of the Ukraine, or it's assumed that the Ukraine will rearm again just like they did after Minsk-2; and so the war will go on as nobody is stupid enough for fall for that.

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    Post  ALAMO Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:24 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Nor a 'frozen conflict' over the Donbass, Crimea and other lands. It's either accepted they are not part of the Ukraine, or it's assumed that the Ukraine will rearm again just like they did after Minsk-2; and so the war will go on as nobody is stupid enough for fall for that.

    And while the doomers are doing their job of causing ferment, we have again multiple materials with tons of grinded Ukro meat and multiple POWs.
    Day as usual.

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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:29 pm

    Azi wrote:
    Arrow wrote:VDV activities in the south. It was a meat grinder for the AU army, but after the withdrawal from Kherson, it ended, which many soldiers reportedly do not understand.

    https://vk.com/komdiv76?z=video-2499828_456241501%2F00bd394c5d62cc16b6%2Fpl_wall_-2499828
    It was a perfect meat grinder. In Kherson they had the best loss ratio compared to Ukraine. The landscape is flat with little cover...the air force and artillery were able to work very well here.

    It's exactly what I was saying earlier - Kherson was a meatgrinder for Ukrainian attempted advances, and Russia withdrew on the 2nd day of the latest Ukrainian assault that in its 1st day went absolutely nowhere as usual

    So Kherson was perfectly defensible, and there was little danger of Russian troops being encircled on the right bank.
    And the supply situation I doubt was critical. They had half a year to bring a surplus of supplies over. Last time I checked, which wasn't a great deal of time before the withdrawal - the civilian population wasn't starving, power was available, the shops were open, there were goods on sale. Would be a little peculiar if the military was all out of ammo, fuel, food and whatever else.

    It was around this time though that a bunch of useless doomers here were chattering about how Russia was pushed out, ran out of supplies on the other bank, barely made it across the bridges, or whatever.

    Later it became clear that the logistics excuse doesn't cut it and the Ukrainians were not conducting some successful assault on Russian positions. But that Russia withdrew in good order and that said withdrawal was planned for some time.
    So then you doomers moved onto this great betrayal, Putin selling out Kherson and soon Melitopol for a deal over Russian frozen assets. As if this isn't the most significant world conflict since the Korean War and Putin would seriously be entertaining the idea, even if he did feel that he was losing, of calling it all's fair with the West, even steven, let's go back to business - and would seriously believe they would accept that.

    See people, this is why I say let the professionals do their job. Including Putin. He's been in the business a long time. And he hasn't lost a war yet that I heard of.

    The actual reason for the withdrawal is probably more to do with the damaged dam's readiness to burst and cause a mass humanitarian crisis than anything else. Better the Ukraine deal with that problem, which they're now surprisingly doing ahead of time by ordering an evacuation.
    Partially it could a goodwill sort of move to institute a local ceasefire on the Kherson front, and set the tone for upcoming negotiations. I don't exclude the possibility - but nothing like goodwill would be the main factor in such a withdrawal, never-mind it being part of some Minsk-3 deal that's already supposedly been chalked out. Remember that the Chernigov and Kiev were also portrayed as good-will gestures by Russia on the background of ongoing negotiations in Istanbul. In reality though Russia simply had nothing left to do in those regions by then and it was military logic that advised those withdrawals.
    For the benefit of international opinion, and the position of important countries backing it such as China and India - Russia must at least appear to be eager to negotiate though. This is a factor that shouldn't be underestimated.

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    Post  limb Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:42 pm

    Erk wrote:
    limb wrote:Peskov embarrassed Russia by saying that Kherson is Russian territory while zelensky is in Kherson.

    Why hasnt russia declared war yet? Why this circus. Russian civilians were killed on Belgorod. Whos behind not wanting war declared?

    The majority of Kherson Oblast is occupied by Russians.

    Perhaps you might want to try and be specific and say Kherson City instead of speaking half truths for propaganda.
    Whats the point of saying that its russia when the russian army wont defend it and the ukrainian president recieves no consequences for waltzing around in "russian" territory?

    Ill say it again. russia hasn't declared war on ukraine even after:
    1.Ukraine killed russian civilians in belgorod
    2. Ukraine staged a terrorist attack on the crimean bridge, killing civilians
    3. Russian territory(stated so in the consitituion) is attacked and occupied by murderous scum.


    The west smells weakness. I ask: what is the actual russian red line for declaring war?

    Why is russia afraid of destroying global hawks or US satellites? Thats a sign of weakness.

    The actual reason for the withdrawal is probably more to do with the damaged dam's readiness to burst and cause a mass humanitarian crisis than anything else. Better the Ukraine deal with that problem, which they're now surprisingly doing ahead of time by ordering an evacuation.
    The left bank of the dnepr is low ground. The destruction of the kakhovka dam would cause more damage to that area than the right bank which is higher ground. The dam isnt the only reason. Himars was a co nstant threat and destroyed the 2 bridges occupied by the russians. We make fun of those himars just causing potholes, but in the end they made the bridges unusable, and then they destroyed a few ferries. This lead to russia having to spned limited expensive SAMs to alleviate the himars salvos. Russia utterly failed at destroying himars en masse. There was never any timely response despite counterbattery radar and humint knowing their locations within a few km from the frontline.

    Himars and olkhas caused the kherson bridgehead to be untenable, which in turn caused the loss of kherson.

    Greyzone predicted back around october 20th that kherson would be abandoned within a few weeks, and that there would be pig slop propaganda and half assed excuses dispensed for the urapatriots which they would wholeheartedly believe while the russian army would be further humiliated.
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    Post  flamming_python Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:58 pm

    limb wrote:
    Erk wrote:
    limb wrote:Peskov embarrassed Russia by saying that Kherson is Russian territory while zelensky is in Kherson.

    Why hasnt russia declared war yet? Why this circus. Russian civilians were killed on Belgorod. Whos behind not wanting war declared?

    The majority of Kherson Oblast is occupied by Russians.

    Perhaps you might want to try and be specific and say Kherson City instead of speaking half truths for propaganda.
    Whats the point of saying that its russia when the russian army wont defend it and the ukrainian president recieves no consequences for waltzing around in "russian" territory?

    Ill say it again. russia hasn't declared war on ukraine even after:
    1.Ukraine killed russian civilians in belgorod
    2. Ukraine staged a terrorist attack on the crimean bridge, killing civilians
    3. Russian territory(stated so in the consitituion) is attacked and occupied by murderous scum.


    The west smells weakness. I ask: what is the actual russian red line for declaring war?

    Why is russia afraid of destroying global hawks or US satellites? Thats a sign of weakness.

    You're fed on a diet of Hollywood values and upbringing. Cheap gizmondo's, explosions and stunts. Along with the invincibility cult of worshiping invincible equipment and soldiers, and all the rest of it.

    "signs of weakness"
    Who cares about signs? Are you an adult? In war as in any other extreme situation you can display whatever 'signs' you like, to misdirect the fool who presumes to think himself the smartest and judge by them.
    Putin knows his stuff in this regard.

    Who cares about Zelensky walking around in Kherson? He can walk around in Kharkov too, best he take the trip while he still can.
    Is it supposed to be a sign of strength on his part?
    Or is it the terrorist attack against the Crimean bridge that was supposed to be a sign of strength? The one these geniuses got their power infrastructure taken out subsequently for.
    If Putin was to have walked around in Kherson prior, would that have been a sign of strength? Or rather a useless pompous gesture in the best traditions of spin-doctors and PR experts?

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    Post  limb Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:03 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    limb wrote:
    Erk wrote:
    limb wrote:Peskov embarrassed Russia by saying that Kherson is Russian territory while zelensky is in Kherson.

    Why hasnt russia declared war yet? Why this circus. Russian civilians were killed on Belgorod. Whos behind not wanting war declared?

    The majority of Kherson Oblast is occupied by Russians.

    Perhaps you might want to try and be specific and say Kherson City instead of speaking half truths for propaganda.
    Whats the point of saying that its russia when the russian army wont defend it and the ukrainian president recieves no consequences for waltzing around in "russian" territory?

    Ill say it again. russia hasn't declared war on ukraine even after:
    1.Ukraine killed russian civilians in belgorod
    2. Ukraine staged a terrorist attack on the crimean bridge, killing civilians
    3. Russian territory(stated so in the consitituion) is attacked and occupied by murderous scum.


    The west smells weakness. I ask: what is the actual russian red line for declaring war?

    Why is russia afraid of destroying global hawks or US satellites? Thats a sign of weakness.

    You're fed on a diet of Hollywood values and upbringing. Cheap gizmondo's, explosions and stunts. Along with the invincibility cult of worshiping invincible equipment and soldiers, and all the rest of it.

    "signs of weakness"
    Who cares about signs? Are you an adult? In war as in any other extreme situation you can display whatever 'signs' you like, to misdirect the fool who presumes to think himself the smartest and judge by them.
    Putin knows his stuff in this regard.

    Who cares about Zelensky walking around in Kherson? He can walk around in Slavyansk too, best he take the trip while he still can.
    Is it supposed to be a sign of strength on his part?
    Or is it the terrorist attack against the Crimean bridge that was supposed to be a sign of strength? The one these geniuses got their power infrastructure taken out subsequently for.

    This isn't hollywodd. This is showing the west that they'll have consequences if they assist ukraine too much. Iran destroyed global hawks. Russia hasnt. Thats a sign of fear, which encourages the west to be more aggressive.


    The power infrastructure was good, but theres still bridges on the dniepr. Ukraine is still mobile and sendinf reserves.
    I know deception is valuable in a conflict, but the russian armed forces haven't decieved at all. Fool me once, fool me twice, etc
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    Post  Isos Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:27 pm


    This isn't hollywodd. This is showing the west that they'll have consequences if they assist ukraine too much. Iran destroyed global hawks. Russia hasnt. Thats a sign of fear, which encourages the west to be more aggressive.

    The US drones are flyin 200km away from Russia. How would you destroy them when they don't enter you airspace.

    The US drones in Iran fly in the strait and often cross the border or at least go at the limits of the border giving the right to Iran to destroy them.

    Most of the valuable data Ukraine gets from USA are from satellites and not drones. The drones can just listen to radar emissions and even then at those distances they can't locate them.

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