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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18

    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:04 pm

    Issue with drones is that close support will be very hard to do. A su-25 with full load of rockets and atgm can stay for 1 hour and the pilot search its target and fire at them by controlling its weapon stocks.

    Drones will carry far less munitions and their manoeuvrability will be shitty if they make it stelthy/flying wing style.

    Remote control at low altitude is also impossible because of terrain maslong the signals. Low flying is vzry important for CAS.

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    Post  Scorpius Mon Jun 13, 2022 7:16 pm


    Mikhail Khazin: Britain planned a nuclear attack on Russia by the hands of Ukraine.
    The operation was to be carried out from Gostomel airport, the warhead was delivered from Britain to Ukraine on An-225 Mriya.
    In general, it sounds a little crazy, but this is Khazin, I have not noticed him in the dissemination of fake information before.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:25 pm

    DPR authorities ask Russia for additional allied forces


    https://radiosputnik.ria.ru/20220613/donetsk-1795083551.html

    MOSCOW, June 13/ Radio Sputnik. The DPR is requesting "additional allied forces" from the Russian Federation in connection with the increased incidence of shelling of Donetsk, Pushilin said.






    Isos wrote:Issue with drones is that close support will be very hard to do. A su-25 with full load of rockets and atgm can stay for 1 hour and the pilot search its target and fire at them by controlling its weapon stocks.

    Drones will carry far less munitions and their manoeuvrability will be shitty if they make it stelthy/flying wing style.

    Remote control at low altitude is also impossible because of terrain maslong the signals. Low flying is vzry important for CAS.

    Because drones done have to carry so many payload. Either it is small drone to hit tank or pillbox or big high flying drones with many precision ammo. With pilots it is even better when you loose drone the same pilot can control very next one same day.



    As for the remote control for a low flying drone? why not? You can have high flying relay one to se everything in rt . Too many details then either automatic systems helping to control it and pilot just press fire button or they work in pairs, one controls flight the other one is responsible for bombing.
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    Post  Erk Mon Jun 13, 2022 8:35 pm

    Isos wrote:Issue with drones is that close support will be very hard to do. A su-25 with full load of rockets and atgm can stay for 1 hour and the pilot search its target and fire at them by controlling its weapon stocks.

    Drones will carry far less munitions and their manoeuvrability will be shitty if they make it stelthy/flying wing style.

    Remote control at low altitude is also impossible because of terrain maslong the signals. Low flying is vzry important for CAS.
    The reason you use drones is they are far cheaper than an Su-25 or a hyper-sonic missile.
    You can have more drones deployed, for the same cost.
    PC gamers to pilot them Smile
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    Post  Ispan Mon Jun 13, 2022 9:40 pm

    limb wrote:So what's the final verdict on the belogorovka bridgehead? Did the Russians ever secure the opposite shore? Did they sustain heavy losses?

    1- costly success  2 - seems so 3 - yes and so did the ukrops.


    Are these losses the reason there was never a pincer movement to surround lisichansk and meet with the popasna pincer?

    No, seems the Russians did secure a bridgehead but couldn't push past it because the ukrops defense solidified in the next town.


    How do the Russians plan to surround lisichansk now?

    Despite the rumors that somehow I get insider information from Russian sources, I do not have a clue. Seversk is the logical objective, to gain control of the railway and alleviate logistics. But seems the Russians are following Ludendorff's maxim "first we will punch a hole somewhere and then we will see".

    So far no manevuer scheme has been ascertained, the Russians probe and push everywhere, and when a sector of the front caves in they try to exploit, but there's not been a real breakthrough anywhere.

    Positional warfare at its worst. As I figure it out, the Russian command is no concerned with the taking of any particular position or even creating pockets, just to grind down to dust the Ukrainian army in the mill of the Donbass salient, like Verdun.

    Is the road through seversk still providing a lot of supplies to the Ukrainians?


    Few, not lot.

    I read that the capture of the balhmut highway is inconsequential because of the road through seversk.


    You got it wrong. The capture of the main highway forces a detour through secondary roads and tracks through Seversk.

    Then again, the Verdun analogy seems even more fitting. Why close the supply route, let the Ukrops run the gauntlet and keep sending reinforcements to the end of the salient.


    I heard the Russians aren't interdicting it be ause the ukrs have too many manpads

    That's why the choppers are known as "night hunters", they prowl the roads at night, but given the abundant daylight footage seems the helicopters are now more confident in flying by day as manpads danger has diminished.

    it's too far away for most Russian artillery.

    Can't tell you without a map, print out a map and draw circles with the range of artillery to check. It can be also done in the computer with paint.


    Also, at this point, I don't really believe voenkotenok with this doomerism about every village being a fortress around gulyaipole, as well as his claim that somehow the Russians   failed to capture barvenkovo because it's too well defended. There's simply no way Ukrainians can have trench networks spanning thousands of km of Frontline.

    *shrugs* He has put his ass in the frontline unlike us sofa warriors, and seems a bright guy. If those aren't his own ideas, he certainly has talked to people who know.

    In my latest report I estimated that the strings of towns  in the Zaporozhe-Donetsk front had been frenetically fortified as a stop line as the Ukrainians fought a delaying action after the breakthrough at Volnovakha.

    There are of course no continuous trench lines like in the Western Front in the First World War. Rather is a line of defensive "hedgehog" positions based on towns and villages, and taking advantage of terrain features that are an obstacle like forests and lakes and ravines. The terrain in Donbass is plentiful of these and that's why the going is tough. The intervals between positions are covered by artillery, of wich the Ukroz had a lot, antitank missiles and machine guns. And of course extense minefields.

    For a more detailed outline of this type of defense, look up in any WWII chronicle the French tactic as answer to the panzers in the second part of the battle in France in 1940. For an in depth analysis read Standing Fast: German Defensive Doctrine On The Russian Front During World War II by Timothy Wray, you can find it online if you know the place.

    The hedgehog (igel) defense was a German improvisation on the winter of 1941 as Germans lacked the resources to mount either a linear defense or a defense in depth. In this war the "hedgehog" defense is the best both sides could do with what they have. Minefields and antitank weapons contribute  to it.

    The difficulty of the fighting in the Donbass salient is that by accident rather than design with such a high density of settlements the Ukrops have actually a defense in depth throughout the entire salient, capturing the first line of strongholds like Popasnaya only means the enemy sets up a defense in the next town and no breakthrough is possible.

    I think the Russian command gave up on the idea of cutting off the Donbass salient by the base either at Barvenkovo or Gyulay Pole because the lack of forces to seal the ring around the pocket, and because the Ukrops wouldn't try to break out of the cauldron but resist where they are, so the only course of option is to squeeze gradually the bulge.



    What's up with kotenok's doomerism that javelins and NLAWs are "still very effective"? Have they even been "very effective" in the opening phase?


    In a technical sense it's true. Their warheads still have the same armor penetration. I doubt the Javelin can penetrate the frontal armor of the T-72 even without reactive armor. But properly employed they can destroy tanks, and there are lots of them.

    That's why the Izyum army got stuck and can't get to Barvenkovo, they have to clear the "Sherwood forest" of Ukrainian squads that can use the forests to set up ambushes and hit and run raids with the ATGMs in the roads that go close or through the forest . Clearing the woods is a infantry job, so we have a replay of the battle of Hurtgen forest all along the Donbass bulge in the "green", the forest belt.

    In the south the terrain is open and the ATGMs have clear fields of fire, so a rupture by armor is out of the question, every town has to be stormed by infantry.

    In the statistical analysis antitank missiles and rocket launchers are inefficient because dozens are wasted to achieve a single tank kill, the success rate might be 10%. But by their pervading presence they are effective in that they force tankers to exert caution.

    The ukrop fortified lines are not impregnable. Only that to achieve a breakthrough it would be needed a massive artillery preparation, a concentration of an armored fist, and a combined arms plan to have the infantry clear the way  for the tanks by eliminating  antitank teams, and in turn the tanks suppress the enemy machine gun nests.

    The attack must also be delivered in a wide frontage so the breach cannot be attacked by artillery on either side, and the breakin or rupture must be converted into a breakthrough or exploitation to achieve operational results.

    The rupture can be achieved even at a modest  scale, but then what?

    So summing it up. Not enough forces, either for rupturing the front or for some deep exploitation, aimed at turning the Donbass salient into a pocket or a dash for the Dnieper bridges.

    I do believe such deep operation is possible in the southern front, with the aim of taking Odessa from the landward, side, but again not enough forces and resources available at the moment, so need to wait for the Donbass battle to end.

    Hopefully by that time, most of the Ukrainian army will have been destroyed, so the follow up operations would be more of a mopping up. Time will tell.


    Last edited by Ispan on Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Hole Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:21 pm

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 24 Fvizss10
    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 24 Fvjbfq10

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    Post  lancelot Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:35 pm

    Ispan wrote:Then again, the Verdun analogy seems even more fitting. Why close the supply route, let the Ukrops run the gauntlet and keep sending reinforcements to the end of the saliet,
    Yeah the place is a giant meatgrinder and will be the grave of most of the Ukranian army. I think the whole objective is to leave such a bad taste in the mouth of the Ukrainians they won't try this again for generations to come.

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    Post  Backman Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:16 am

    Drones are slow and clumsy compared to a jet aircraft. I just don't see how you could dart around the sky like the su 25 is doing now in Ukraine with a drone.

    Like all weapons , there is a time and a place for each of them. Drones have their place and so does a flying tank like the su 25

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    Post  lancelot Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:19 am

    When you look through the camera of a drone it is a bit like looking through a soda straw. You have really limited visibility.
    A pilot has a lot more visibility. Especially if you augment the pilot with things like thermal sights.

    There is no easy way to solve this with drones, since you need a huge amount of bandwidth to transmit the signal with enough resolution and framerate. The longer the distance between you and the drone the worse the problem becomes. You might need to use even more bandwidth limited satellite feeds, and you will have more latency.

    The way they will try to solve this will be with AI to process out most of the data in the video signal and only transmit the targets back to the operator so he can select and engage them.

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    Post  Kiko Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:37 am

    Looking sideways at the Pani maybe Aleksandr Grigorievitch might supply a regiment to the Allied forces in reply to the DPR's request for reinforcements.
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:07 am

    lancelot wrote:When you look through the camera of a drone it is a bit like looking through a soda straw. You have really limited visibility.
    A pilot has a lot more visibility. Especially if you augment the pilot with things like thermal sights.

    Pilot has actually much less visibility. He has to focus on mission, weapons conrtol and to sav ehis ass too. the same can have drone. All thermal sights/laser rangefinders, automated image processing or decision making help. This depends on what is your task? or how much are you willing to pay for drone?

    Especially when there's teams of 2 pilot and weapon officer for drones. Such a setup makes it more efficient than any attack aircraft. No need to focus on saving their own lives. A pilot focuses on mission and weapon officer just what and when to fire.




    There is no easy way to solve this with drones, since you need a huge amount of bandwidth to transmit the signal with enough resolution and framerate. The longer the distance between you and the drone the worse the problem becomes. You might need to use even more bandwidth limited satellite feeds, and you will have more latency.

    drone relays , networking of battlefield.


    Backman wrote:
    The way they will try to solve this will be with AI to process out most of the data in the video signal and only transmit the targets back to the operator so he can select and engage them.

    That's is in making. Yet systems are id say half automated, you still need to make decision to fire or not...
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:19 am

    Russian Armed Forces destroyed the stationing point of foreign mercenaries near Fedorovka


    The Russian Defense Ministry announced the destruction of the military equipment of the Ukrainian troops transferred by the United States (dated 13/06/2022)


    MOSCOW, June 13 - RIA Novosti. Russian troops have destroyed a large batch of Western weapons and a stationing point for foreign mercenaries in the Donbass, Defense Ministry spokesman Lieutenant-General Igor Konashenkov said.
    "High-precision air-launched missiles in the area of ​​the Udachnoe railway station of the Donetsk People's Republic destroyed a large number of weapons and military equipment delivered for the group of Ukrainian nationalists, including from the United States and European countries. In addition, they destroyed: a temporary deployment point for foreign mercenaries in the Fedorovka Luganskaya Narodnaya Republic , as well as two batteries of multiple launch rocket systems in the Progress districts of the Kharkiv region and Volcheyarovka of the Luhansk People's Republic," he said.
    At the same time, operational-tactical and army aviation attacked 63 areas of concentration of manpower and military equipment, hitting, among other things, the command post and radar station of the Buk-M1 air defense system . In total, more than 120 personnel, two tanks, seven artillery pieces and 11 special vehicles were destroyed.

    https://ria.ru/20220613/ukraina-1795007115.html

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    Post  Erk Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:24 am

    Backman wrote:Drones are slow and clumsy compared to a jet aircraft. I just don't see how you could dart around the sky like the su 25 is doing now in Ukraine with a drone.

    Like all weapons , there is a time and a place for each of them. Drones have their place and so does a flying tank like the su 25

    So you build faster and less clumsy drones, like the Sukhoi S-70.Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 24 Sukhoi-okhotnik-unmanned-combat-aerial-vehicle


    Last edited by Erk on Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Belisarius Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:33 am

    🇷🇺🇺🇦 Russian EW landed an interesting bird: UAV APU "Spectator-M1"

    Designed for aerial optical-electronic reconnaissance, including at night.
    https://t.me/intelslava/31090?single

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:12 am

    Word on the vine is that Greece plans to transfer to the Ukraine 120 BMP-1s, 60 Stingers and 20k Kalashnikovs. Apparently been reported in Greek news

    Anyone heard anything about this?
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:28 am

    flamming_python wrote:Word on the vine is that Greece plans to transfer to the Ukraine 120 BMP-1s, 60 Stingers and 20k Kalashnikovs. Apparently been reported in Greek news

    Anyone heard anything about this?

    The story is not really new. Grece is to deliver all ex-GDR BMP1s to 404 and Germany to send Marders to Grece instead.

    But AK-47?! in Greece? how?

    https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/germany-supply-ifvs-greece-athens-deliver-soviet-weapons-kyiv-scholz-2022-05-31/

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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:44 am

    mnztr wrote:Sure but that is why patsir is idea, as it has the gun option. I think you will see more autocannons on tactical air defence as they would be ideal for drone swarms

    57mm cannon with guided rounds and airburst HE is a better option, ie 2S38 Derivitsiya. I'd like to see a missile SHORAAD with a pair of 2S38 guns in side sponsons, but it would probably be prohibitively large and a tad expensive. Maybe on an Armata chassis as SHORAAD for Armata-based elite heavy units. Ok, so I'm a dreamer... Laughing

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    Post  d_taddei2 Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:44 am

    mnztr wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    d_taddei2 wrote:Sa-13 taking out Ukrainian drone

    https://www.armyrecognition.com/ukraine_-_russia_conflict_war_2022/russian_soldiers_use_sa-13_air_defense_missile_system_to_shoot_down_ukrainian_furia_drone.html

    The SAM has to cost at least 10x the price of that rinky dink drone.

    Taking out that drone could be the difference between Russian troops receiving a barrage of artillery from Ukraine or not. It's not as if we are talking about S-400 taking out a drone, sa-13 is designed to take out short range targets and although carry a slightly larger warhead than a MANPAD I would still say it's well worth taking out that drone.

    And techiia foundation(NGO) are fundraising to purchase a furia drone the cost is $132,645. So I would imagine it's actually more expensive than a SA-13 missile.

    Sure but that is why patsir is idea, as it has the gun option. I think you will see more autocannons on tactical air defence as they would be ideal for drone swarms

    You use what you have. Panstir missiles most likely cost more, and if you have Sa-13 with older missiles makes sense to use up older stocks than using new pantsir missiles. As for guns it won't be easy to hit drones, and the guns do have a limited range to which drones could operate out with it. The guns are a last resort weapon or can be used if they come under attack while in process of reloading missiles. AD coverage is quite key so u use what u have. And if I am honest Russia and donbass militia have done quite well operating their AD systems

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    Post  mnztr Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:00 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Sure but that is why patsir is idea, as it has the gun option. I think you will see more autocannons on tactical air defence as they would be ideal for drone swarms

    57mm cannon with guided rounds and airburst HE is a better option, ie 2S38 Derivitsiya. I'd like to see a missile SHORAAD with a pair of 2S38 guns in side sponsons, but it would probably be prohibitively large and a tad expensive.  Maybe on an Armata chassis as SHORAAD for Armata-based elite heavy units.  Ok, so I'm a dreamer...  Laughing

    Over kill. 30mm prox fuse is already overkill. Probab 20mm will do the job nicely but go with 30mm just for more versatility and potential anti vehicle and self defense use as well.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:46 am

    mnztr wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Sure but that is why patsir is idea, as it has the gun option. I think you will see more autocannons on tactical air defence as they would be ideal for drone swarms

    57mm cannon with guided rounds and airburst HE is a better option, ie 2S38 Derivitsiya. I'd like to see a missile SHORAAD with a pair of 2S38 guns in side sponsons, but it would probably be prohibitively large and a tad expensive.  Maybe on an Armata chassis as SHORAAD for Armata-based elite heavy units.  Ok, so I'm a dreamer...  Laughing

    Over kill. 30mm prox fuse is already overkill. Probab 20mm will do the job nicely but go with 30mm just for more versatility and potential anti vehicle and self defense use as well.

    Maybe against swarm drones, but 20-30mm doesn't have the kill potential against other (more robust) battlefield threats. Smart 57mm rounds will have superior range and ballistics, and will take down even an armoured attack helo (or CAS attack jet) with a single hit. Should the need arise, 57mm provides superior self defense against the likes of enemy IFVs or ATGM-carrying recon vehicles, especially with smart ammo and FCS, not to mention infantry.

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    Post  mnztr Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:05 am

    Isos wrote:Issue with drones is that close support will be very hard to do. A su-25 with full load of rockets and atgm can stay for 1 hour and the pilot search its target and fire at them by controlling its weapon stocks.

    Drones will carry far less munitions and their manoeuvrability will be shitty if they make it stelthy/flying wing style.

    Remote control at low altitude is also impossible because of terrain maslong the signals. Low flying is vzry important for CAS.

    Just imagine how much smaller and more robust a drone could be if they don't have to cater for the survival of the pilot. All that armour, ejection seat , life support etc. All can go to payload and more robust airframe. They could even use a more robust version of the Kaliber engine with a larger wing. The entire fuse can be a ordinance rack.

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    Post  mnztr Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:06 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Sure but that is why patsir is idea, as it has the gun option. I think you will see more autocannons on tactical air defence as they would be ideal for drone swarms

    57mm cannon with guided rounds and airburst HE is a better option, ie 2S38 Derivitsiya. I'd like to see a missile SHORAAD with a pair of 2S38 guns in side sponsons, but it would probably be prohibitively large and a tad expensive.  Maybe on an Armata chassis as SHORAAD for Armata-based elite heavy units.  Ok, so I'm a dreamer...  Laughing

    Over kill. 30mm prox fuse is already overkill. Probab 20mm will do the job nicely but go with 30mm just for more versatility and potential anti vehicle and self defense use as well.

    Maybe against swarm drones, but 20-30mm doesn't have the kill potential against other (more robust) battlefield threats.  Smart 57mm rounds will have superior range and ballistics, and will take down even an armoured attack helo (or CAS attack jet) with a single hit.  Should the need arise, 57mm provides superior self defense against the likes of enemy IFVs or ATGM-carrying recon vehicles, especially with smart ammo and FCS, not to mention infantry.

    You will always have missiles for those. Maybe they can develop a combo sam/atgm.
    Arkanghelsk
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18

    Post  Arkanghelsk Tue Jun 14, 2022 5:11 am

    https://t.me/swodki/116376

    What is occurring in the baltics calls for denazification


    Kiril Fedorov is the blogger who was the main effort behind istorijaoruzija

    The Latvian authorities detained him and have been torturing him

    They should be destroyed, turn Riga into a Kievan scene
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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18

    Post  GarryB Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:51 am

    I've always wondered what the successor to the Su-25 will be for the VKS and if they have nothing in the works, will they restart production of the plane in Russia?

    I guess it comes down to how far advanced the replacement is and whether the design choices they made for the new aircraft make sense with experience from Syria and this conflict.

    They can't restart production in Russia, as originally, plane was built in Georgia. I believe that building a new model would be better, unless they plan on going with drones instead.

    The two seaters were made in Russia AFAIK.

    They could simply opt for a single seat by filling second seat with avionics.

    Which they did with the Su-25T and Su-25TM.

    But the attempt was technically Yak-130 but that failed due to high costs and general lack of protection.

    That was Yak trying to justify the high cost of the Yak-130 by claiming it could be multirole and used in combat too...

    There are no "sacred" causes and quickly lose interest as if it were a commercial product.

    People in the west today require constant stimulation and excitement like the Informercial like news reports on Robocop or Max Headroom... they get bored very quickly.

    Various sources say Russia has up to 250 SU-25. Not sure if there is a need to do more then upgrade them, and the heavy drone will probably be its successor.

    They often operate in pairs with the front plane flying low and fast and attacking targets, while the wingman sits further back looking for missile launches and muzzle flashes... I would say it would be interesting to use a drone in either role, but the sensors would need to be pretty good...

    Sure but that is why patsir is idea, as it has the gun option. I think you will see more autocannons on tactical air defence as they would be ideal for drone swarms

    I don't think we will see actual drone swarms for quite some time, but I do agree that airburst 30mm and 57mm rounds would be an efficient way of dealing with large numbers of targets at once.

    In fact shot for shot perhaps a 152mm artillery shell that could be delivered to a coordinate and detonated creating a large shockwave and fragmentation zone in the middle of a swarm from a distance away could be rather interesting... maybe a custom designed model with a rear HE charge and a front mounted box with tens of thousands of bbs that are showered over a large cone area as the round descends...

    Could also be used against larger drones too.

    Already there. These are the Su-30 and Su-34. The Su-34 is generally a replacement for the Su-24, Su-25 and partially the Tu-22M3.

    Can't agree with that... the Su-34 is no CAS.

    Su-25 again proved its extreme potency in both surviving and effectiveness.
    Ukros are flying them because those are so hard to kill, not because they have the privilege of making choices.

    Hard to kill but also able to operate from anywhere... which means they can operate well forward which means they arrive on target quicker than a heavier aircraft coming from much further away.

    But against an enemy with r-77 or amraam or meteors su-25 would be following from the skies daily. It's a pretty easy target with slow speed and big rcs. Against such enemies they will use drones with stealthy design to drop bombs undetected.

    Are you talking about Ukrainian Su-25s or Russian ones... because Russian ones have self defence pods for AAM defence... drones would be even easier targets and much less effective. Bombs being dropped against targets could be Iskander or Onyx.

    CAS is about low flying aircraft delivering direct fire on targets... now including lofted unguided rockets and bombs...

    HATO fighters will be dealing with Russian fighters and Russian air defence and honestly likely struggling... I doubt they will hang around the air much especially after all their AWACS and JSTARs and inflight refuelling planes are down.

    A modern su-25SM3 is not as cheap to produce a su-25.

    Modern optics and AESA radar are becoming more affordable as their production volumes increase.... existing equipment developed for helicopters could be used to save development costs too... Even ships and armoured vehicles are sprouting EO pods and radar mounts to extend the range they can spot targets from and the new range of weapons for drones should allow a new CAS aircraft to carry enormous numbers of ordinance that can be small if delivered accurately... if the weapon is a guided top attack munition that hits the target every time then you can carry clusters of it on each weapon pylon at 40-50kgs per weapon, compared with dumb bombs of 250kgs or 500kgs each. Equally guided rockets in rocket pods expands its capabilities too.

    Drones are good for recon, but CAS is more than just recon, it is attack, so CAS will be replaced by drones when Attack Helicopters are... and they are now working on high speed replacements for those it seems.

    The reason you use drones is they are far cheaper than an Su-25 or a hyper-sonic missile.
    You can have more drones deployed, for the same cost.
    PC gamers to pilot them

    The argument for laser guided unguided rockets is that when you are launching a rocket at a truck or car or other point target like a sandbagged firing position with unguided rockets you might need to launch half a dozen rockets to be sure of hitting the target, but with a guided rocket you should hit it with one or two shots... and it makes sense because simple laser guidance packages and manouver kits might make the rockets 5 times more expensive but you end up spending about the same because you use less rockets.

    The problem with drones replacing the Su-25 is that it doesn't matter if they are 1/10th the price if you lose 20 in an attack where you wouldn't lose an Su-25 because it is better armoured and has better avionics.

    If you give the drone the same armour and avionics the price jumps up to 1/2 the price and it still might no be as effective in combat.

    I would say a wingman type drone that either flys in and takes out the target or sits back and forms an overwatch type role looking for anyone trying to engage the aircraft operating in front of it.

    57mm cannon with guided rounds and airburst HE is a better option, ie 2S38 Derivitsiya.

    The 57mm grenade launchers should be very useful with airburst rounds too as the rounds would have rather more explosive content as the projectile is most of the length of the round.

    I'd like to see a missile SHORAAD with a pair of 2S38 guns in side sponsons, but it would probably be prohibitively large and a tad expensive.

    It makes sense with a 30mm cannon because rate of fire is important, but with the much heavier 57mm calibre rounds the precision of the guided rounds and the weight of each shell and how close you can get them to the target is rather more important than rate of fire whcih is why the 2S38 has one gun and no two.

    The ZSU-57-2 had two guns because it fired unguided dumb rounds so doubling the rate of fire improved performance.

    With guided airburst shells rate of fire is not important...

    Maybe on an Armata chassis as SHORAAD for Armata-based elite heavy units. Ok, so I'm a dreamer..

    There will likely be 2S38s based on Armata, Kurganets, Boomerang and Typhoon vehicles as well as the DT series snow models too... but I doubt they will add extra barrels... for the weight and space of an extra barrel and the autoloader and ammo feed you could probably fit a dozen SOSNA missiles and perhaps have a similar number of missiles in the hull.

    Over kill. 30mm prox fuse is already overkill.

    Not at all... the 30mm rounds are command detonated but not guided so you need to track the target and launch rounds at the target to bracket the area where it might be when the rounds arrive and detonate them in that bracket to do damage.

    The chance of a direct hit on a small drone is unlikely which is why they are moving to 57mm calibre rounds.

    The advantage of airburst rounds is that you don't need a direct hit so a guided 57mm round does not need to be able to loop the loop like a fighter plane... most of the time it will be fired in a lead intercept course but might need to turn a fraction of a degree in flight to follow the target that is manouvering so that when it flys past it is not very far away... the command detonation ensuring the target is destroyed.

    The size of a 57mm shell means plenty of HE and plenty of shrapnel to shred the target and take it down.

    A 30mm does not have the same weight of HE and fragments and would need to get rather closer, but as far as I am aware they are not making a guided 30mm shell... just a command detonating one.

    This means the 30mm round will be lethal if it gets within a metre or two of the target, but for targets that need solid direct hits then 57mm guided rounds makes more sense and could reach beyond the 4km range of the 30mm to perhaps 12-16km for 57mm ammo.

    Probab 20mm will do the job nicely but go with 30mm just for more versatility and potential anti vehicle and self defense use as well.

    They don't use a 20mm... the closest would be 23mm cannon or 14.5mm HMG. The 23mm could work but the 14.5mm is too light in terms of HE.

    You will always have missiles for those. Maybe they can develop a combo sam/atgm.

    Guided rounds are just warheads and control surfaces with command guidance... it is easier to make them cheaper than missiles even though they will be more expensive than standard shells they will also be more cost effective.

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    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18 - Page 24 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #18

    Post  Serberus Tue Jun 14, 2022 9:16 am

    https://t.me/DonbassDevushka/10767
    🇷🇺 Ukrainian military shelled the Bryansk region
    The Armed Forces of Ukraine shelled the village of Zaimishche, located in the urban district of Klintsy, Bryansk region. Four civilians were wounded.
    The information about the shelling was confirmed by the governor of the Bryansk region Alexander Bogomaz.
    Apparently a Tochka-U missile was used.

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