Putin must be "guilty" that NATO came to Russia's borders, right ?
Yes, the failures over the Ukraine since 2000 were arguably hard to avoid, but nevertheless are his responsibility
I don't remember Putin ever taking one decision over the Ukraine throughout his whole time in power that turned out to be the correct one.
To give an example - Putin started weaning Russia away from the Ukraine before the Maidan events; but continued even though Yanukovich was still in power. Even though this import-substitution was still low-key and done in a half-assed way - which raises the question as to what was the point of such a half-measure. But it's symbolic of the wider Russian approach. Too afraid to go all in either way. Either completely back Yanukovich and the pro-Russian forces in the Ukraine (in as far as they were even pro-Russian as such, they were still the best Russia could hope for there) and integrate the Ukraine to the maximum amount, or ditch all pro-Russian forces in the Ukraine well ahead of time - back when the first color revolution occurred in 2004.
Russia couldn't decide on what option, chose something in the middle, and ended up with the worst of both worlds.
You are showing your true face again and you "doubt" that Putin might be the culprit for this war. Look at this, I have no doubt that I would fight with you with my bare hands if we were in front of each other by any chance. You really stink !
You got issues bud but they're not with me.
Russia is doing exactly what you obviously don't like, that is, it is trying to kill as many of those "brothers" in the battles, while the conquest of cities is left for later.
No I agree it's the correct strategy, destroy the enemy armies out in the field. Which doesn't BTW, necessarily mean physically destroying all the manpower. Rather destroying the armies and formations themselves, and forcing their personnel to either desperate last-stands as isolated units, or to use their heads and surrender.
Because Russia does need these people. The LDNR forces by themselves can't ensure security over all Ukrainian territory.
And you don't want the Ukrainian army to take a page out of Saddam's Iraqi army and melt away to form various regional militias, criminal gangs and the Ukrainian variant of ISIS eventually either.
You need to take the professional military men and integrate them into your own newly created force structures, and have them police it and fight any Western-sponsored units themselves with Russian support.
I'm talking here about Ukrainian military professionals, and ones not implicated in warcrimes or with any Nazi tattoos covering them. Those fellas can all go to jail instead
And I'm not talking about the hastily mobilized civilians into the Ukrainian army either. They need to be released as soon as it becomes feasible back home and into the workforce.
Those "brothers" of yours erased KIEV in just a couple of years, and KYIV is now used all over the world, and it's not Kharkov, it's Kkarkiv, just as the Dnieper became the Dnipro, etc. AND WHY DID THEY DO IT ? The only reason is that they do not want to identify with your story about "brotherhood" and they smoked a Western lie that they will have a standard of living at least like the Germans. Why did more of your "brothers" go to Poland than to Russia?
It was the Ukrainian oligarchs who in the 90s, agreed to the Western-proposed project of slowly becoming an 'anti-Russia'. First by adopting neutrality, the Budapest Memorandum. Then steadily with Ukrainization initiatives over the years. Involvement in Iraq. Involvement in Afghanistan. The Orange Revolution. Then the Maidan and the war in the Donbass.
Those Ukrainian elites over that period of time also convinced their population that they're acting in their wider best interests, that the EU will shower the Ukraine in money, etc..
And yes it is that critical part of the population's fault for buying into this fairy tale too.
I think this is all a tragedy, but by itself it's not reason enough for war. The same Ukrainians are the ones who make up the populations of these cities, Kiev, Kharkov, etc... while still being Russian-speakers. If they're willing to tolerate the names of their cities being corrupted, or make excuses for their leadership - then who am I or who are Russians living in Russia to teach them what they should or shouldn't put up with?
In actual fact of course many people weren't happy with all this, but believed in this cock & bull story about democracy and actually elected Zelensky in the hopes that as a Russian-speaker he would stand up for them.
The justifications for war I've already outlined. It's is if it was coming anyway, and the Donbass or Crimea wouldn't be left alone. If the Ukraine was going to enter NATO while having a territorial conflict with Russia, do something obscene like try to acquire a nuclear weapon, etc...
Those are only good reasons for the Russian operation far as I'm concerned. Not the city names, or the language not being taught in schools, or the fake Ukrainian Orthodox Church, or any of this crap. By themselves neither them nor the entirety of the Ukraine are worth such a shitfest.
Those "brothers" of yours mostly wear these days Hitler's tattoos, swastikas, insignia of the SS division, etc. And most of them are not from Western Ukraine, but they are residents of Kharkov, Mariupol, Kiev or Zaporozhye and Nikolaev.
I've known a lot of Ukrainians and the vast majority are ordinary people, with no swastika tattoos, sympathy towards fascist ideology, tortures of people, etc... and no antipathy towards Russians either, or any inclination towards politics in general; everyone gets along, people intermarry, and all the rest of it.
But what I find worrying is how quickly even rank & file Ukrainians are to whitewash all these things, claim that there is no Nazism in the Ukraine, yet when you point out the Odessa Trade House massacre or SBU assassinations; they have no answer other than whataboutism or accusations of Russian state propaganda. There is an underlying nationalism there which gets to the point where everything can be excused no matter the atrocity. But hatred towards Russia or Russians is not at its core; rather some sort of complex.
It's necessary to force everyone there to accept what their state has become, and what it's doing in their name. And forsake it, everything that the Ukraine has become over the last 30 years, and that the country, or the territory of the former country must be reformatted. And there's nothing to lose anyway because no-one is interested in granting them EU membership, only in using them as cannon fodder against Russia; all they've achieved so far is becoming the poorest country in Europe.
This is the denazification side of the equation.
Muscovites is not an expression invented by Poroshenko and Zelensky, but it is an old and derogatory Ukrainian saying about the Russians, isn't it ?
Vast majority of Ukrainians who I've met in day to day life in every country don't use that term, and don't demonstrate venom towards Russians. Again, their corrupt puppet regime aside along with its despicable propaganda and indoctrination - people in the Ukraine don't deserve a war. Not over some stupid name used by nationalists. If there is to be a war, then only because it has become inevitable due to the decisions of NATO and the Kiev regime.
And your story about the "brotherhood" with a good part of the "Ukrainians" is worth nothing. It is not worth it because it is an old wound opened by the communists, and Lenin gave rise to the story of the "state of Ukraine". Only that was not so visible during the USSR, but it came later.
I already explained how it was the Germans who gave rise to the state of the Ukraine in Brest-Litovsk.
But really it all extends further back.
Lenin did nothing other than negotiate with Ukrainian communists as equals really, after running the German puppet-state out of town first of course. And you can't fault the USSR, because under the USSR the Ukraine worked. It was an advanced, industrialized republic and its party leadership was loyal to Moscow until the time to shake things down under Gorbachev came. When they turned traitor, but then so did many other regional Soviet leaderships.
For seventy years, heretics ate up Russia and the Russian Orthodox Church, while on the other hand, extreme nationalism (later Nazism) grew in Ukraine. The moment you ban the basic language (it was Russian) and invent "your" Ukrainian Orthodox Church - then it is clear that you do not want to be a brother to the one from whom you essentially became, that is, from Russia.
This whole story started in the Perestroika years and has been festering since.
I went into this already so I'm not going to repeat myself.
I'll just point out that there were plenty such Banana republic regimes set up in Latin America by the US; all sorts of fascists, crypto-Nazis, right-wing juntas, etc... where are they all today? Along with all the nationalism, alternate this or that they've tried to promote amongst their populations?
Gone, that's where. Once their own people figured out who's ruling in their interests and who isn't. And ideally the Ukraine would have gone through the same process, and without any attempts to force the situation from the outside. That war broke out between Russia and the Ukraine is a massive shame; and there are reasons I'd accept for this war - but things like the Orthodox Church, language policies, etc... aren't them. These things are all temporary in any case.
If you are so sure of the "brotherhood" with Ukraine, then explain to me why the FSB still captures "cells" with Ukrainians in Crimea working against Crimea and Russia during special military operation, even though those Ukrainians have been living inside the state of Russia for 8 years or from 2014 ?
You see, even the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinopole recognized the "Ukrainian" Orthodox Church as independent, and the same church that was not founded by either Poroshenko or Zelensky, but was founded much earlier. And why was it done, if it is already known that Ukrainians have been going to the Russian Orthodox Church for centuries ?
In the end i must write that you are ignorant not to see that the West used fertile ground to fight against Russia, because what is happening now is not something that started with Poroshenko and Zelensky, but started much earlier. At least half of the "Ukrainians" will never want to have anything to do with Russia again, and the West used that fertile ground to fight against Russia, and you are free to get carried away with the story of "brotherhood".
Explain to me why the Ukrainian population of the Crimea voted for joining Russia in virtually the same proportion as the Russian population of the Crimea did?
And why is it that in any given region of the Ukraine or Russia, Ukrainians and Russians both tend to get the same sort of opinion about things and in the same ratios?
And no 'cells' of occasional retards among a 2.5 mil mixed population changes the overall picture.
It's because Russians and Ukrainians function as one society and one people in practice. The delimitation between Russians and Ukrainians is a territorial one, not an ethnic or cultural one. What you do have therefore instead of Russians and Ukrainians differing in opinion; are regions that differ in opinion - depending on whether the region has more of a Russian or Ukrainian character. And then the rest of the Slavic population as a whole tends towards that mainstream.
It works that way in the Donbass too - which in fact is very much a mixed region of Russians and Ukrainians; Russians more dominant in the cities and Ukrainians in the country. The regional intelligentsia comes from the cities, hence the Donbass is a Russian region. The Donbass population all collectively decided to give up on Ukrainian identity back in 2014, and adopt their own Donbass one instead.
Pridnestrovie - same thing again. It has roughly equal numbers of Russians and Ukrainians. It even has an equal amount of Moldovans. But the Russian population of the urban centers dominates in opinion-formation, thus the region is entirely Russian in character, despite Russians only being 1/3rd of the population.
And once you understand all this, you understand why Russians and Ukrainians cannot really be enemies. It's all to do with regimes, and elites. The peoples themselves always form one society.
Comparing Serbia with Russia is ridiculous. If we had some of the military equipment you have - we would trample Ukraine even more. We Serbs have been seeing the antagonism of a good part of the population of Ukraine towards Russia for decades, while they are still "brothers" for you.
For people like you, neither Bandera nor the war in 2014 was enough, as well as this conflict now, to understand that many of them do not want to be your brothers.
What issue does Serbia have with the Ukraine?
You already have your own Ukraine - Montenegro. Why didn't you trample them?
They in their slim majority decided to become an independent state, and since then have been ruled by the same corrupt pro-Western oligarch and have been transformed into a gambling and crime den on the Adriatic. They have all the same retardation with the Serbian Orthodox Church as the Ukraine has tried with its own church, and all the rest of it. And the people there are not happy with all this from what I understand.
But why lift a finger to help them? Much less get into a war with them?
I guess Serbia decided that it's better for them to face the consequences of their own decisions alone and perhaps learn from them in time, so long as they don't decide to pose an actual threat to Serbia.
Ukraine no longer exists for me, and listen carefully to your compatriot Mikhail Onufrienko, who says "the former state of Ukraine" in every announcement. Unlike you, he is a true patriot. You're a liberal a**hole. I am FOR Russia to trample Ukraine as long as there is ONE guy who will say "Glory to Ukraine". If you need to kill millions, go ahead !
I agree it might be necessary to get rid of the Ukrainian state at least temporarily with an occupation zone. Sooner or later people will demand one again though, or else what you'll find is that Ukrainians in the former Ukrainian territories will try to vote in some Sobchak. Who needs that problem? Better they should have their own state and their own sovereignty and make their own decisions, main thing is that they don't invite foreign military bases onto their soil or anything else that can threaten Russia.
Last edited by flamming_python on Tue May 24, 2022 12:40 pm; edited 3 times in total