Russian special military operation in Ukraine #7

Garry, tactical nuclear weapons are not for use on strategic targets

Correct, I meant theatre weapons rather than tactical because strategic weapons are generally ICBMs and SLBMs, while IRBMs and MRBMs and SRBMs are theatre or as I said tactical nuclear weapons... which is probably not the proper term... though a tactical nuclear bomb on a German Tornado with inflight refuelling top ups could certainly be considered strategic when hitting targets in Russia.

It is very much a gray area.

The delivery systems are conventional, artillery, Anti ship, SRBM, Cruise Missile, bomb, mine , torpedo

All delivery systems are conventional... except Thunderbird and nuclear powered SSBNs or Poseidon.

The yield is low

The Yield can be anything you want it to be... some aircraft delivered weapons are 10MT.

If tactical nuclear weapon takes out your base, you do not escalate by launching a Trident or Minuteman because that invites strategic response

If your enemy is launching nuclear weapons of any kind against you you will be forced to launch a full nuclear strike before he attacks you airfields where your nuclear bombers are based, your nuclear sub bases and your ICBM fields and locations where you road mobile ICBMs operate.

Only the west thinks they can gradually escalate things from small nukes to bigger ones and then eventually the main missiles go... that is just silly.

I remember reading a book by a Soviet general asked about such a scenario and he said it was as stupid as cowboys with pistols starting out swearing at each other an then throwing bottles and things and then slapping each other and then punching and then hitting each other with chairs and then going for their guns.

As he points out... when you pick up that chair and advance towards him to break it over his head what is to stop him from drawing his pistol and shooting you in the head?

In real war you will have requirements that need to be met to launch nukes and when met those nukes will be launched... and the enemy firing any sort of nuke at you will be the requirement.

Once you escalate to strategic yes there is no going back

Which is why the wests attitude is so damn dangerous...

But at tactical level, for example European theater it is plausible

Why else would NATO have B61?

Because they are fucking insane?

BTW a B61 on an F-111 with inflight refuelling support has an enormous range and is closer to strategic than most western experts like to admit.

First, they wanted to keep the industrial base more or less intact, for further usage.
Now it looks not more relevant.

Not true... demilitarise was always mentioned.

There are already signs of anti-NATO dissent in Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary, Turkey. When the Ukraine falls, the effect will cascade. The wall will fall, and NATO will pull out of Eastern Europe at a minimum, indeed back to 1997.

The demand was not that everything goes back to how it was in 1997, it was more that HATO forces like US bases get withdrawn from the new countries in HATO... including missile bases etc etc... the countries currently in HATO can remain, but breaking the CFE rules by claiming US forces in these places are on rotation and are not permanently based there is just lawyer double talk for we are breaking the rules and there is nothing you can do about it... no wonder Russia withdrew.

How the hell this can even exist. I thought this kind of stupidity based on pure hatred cannot exist today and at least not from someone calling himself expert.

Hahahaha... the western propaganda always projects it own evil on its enemies, so Russians celebrating their win in WWII is denigrated as warmongering by the war loving west who protested Trump withdrawing US troops from Afghanistan... no question why they were there... they have to stay... by the warmongering western media and much of the warmongering western public too.

But lets worry about Russians invading us... the west Spends trillions of US dollars protecting the west from evil Russia.. it should be fine... as long as it doesn't do anything stupid.

Ignore the Agony of Panzerwaffe in the East

HATO failed, so it must be that Russians are military supermen and women... Amazons and Spartans from Birth... a militarised culture of death... like the west.

Except the Russians aren't and the west is.... a militarised culture but more Pac Man than G I Joe.

Fu*k this is great! Very Happy So Russia can have the S-400 back and of course they have the money still received. Hahahaha

The S-400 is a good system but not invincible... if you set it up the Russians can located it via its emissions and take a good look via satellite and see how many launchers are set up with how many missiles... if there are 24 missiles ready to launch send 40 drones armed with missiles like Kornet... fly very low and very fast and take them out... they simply don't have the TOR and Pantsir and other operational systems connected to it to protect it from such an attack so it wont last long in such a situation.

Even if they game them some F-22s they wouldn't last very long either... there is no way the Ukraine can win... surrendering would reduce the suffering and death toll and damage but they clearly never cared about that anyway.

And I bet my arse there is a backdoor for Russia...to manipulate IFF. Like the F-35 can be deactivated from USA at any time.

Never gamble anything you are not prepared to lose...

You can bet motherinlaws, or children, but don't bet important body parts...

Yes, brave, working very close to target. I am not sure if KA-52 is as armored as Mi-28, for my unprofessional opinion they looked more sophisticated and more fragile unlike flying tanks Mi-24/Mi-28.

The body of the Ka-52 is very well armoured, but like western helicopters the front windscreen is armoured but the canopy sides are not.

The Mi-28 has all armoured transparencies that will stop a 14.5mm HMG round fired from about 5-10m range... there is a video of them testing that... the window is cratered on the outside but smooth on the inside after impact of that very powerful round.

So Charlie Hebdo is so upset about Russians killing Ukrainians they are suggesting them as a free alternative power system for motor vehicles in France... the caring never stops from those guys... with allies like that...

For such "jokes", the author of the drawing should be followed by a couple of strong blows to the face.

It seems to be popular with the French public... seems they like that sort of thing.

This separation from the west is a good thing for Russia.

Now Simonyan is talking about annexing the Donbass to Russia

I'm against it. And it would alienate many Ukrainians simply hoping for regime-change and a pro-Russian orientation.

I hope it's just psyops

Russia needs to escalate the terms... the longer they make this drag out and people getting killed be prolonged... the harsher the terms.

Ask Finland... before the war Stalin asked for land and Finland said no and so Stalin invaded and got a real bloody nose and some very good lessons at the same time that probably helped them perform better against the Germans, but when Stalin won he took more than he asked for... because the Fins made them pay for it, they took more.

FFS why post here? Can't you be bothered to access the correct thread?

This is the wrong thread for economic news totally unrelated to Ukraine.

I will leave it here to counter the Putin has fked up and the sky is falling BS some were posting, though now it seems FP has lightened up a bit...

Most Jews are normal people who want to live normal lives. A bunch of oligarchs hardly changes that.

That is very true, but some of these people sold Russia out when they left, probably never expecting to go back... them wanting to return should not mean they are just welcomed back with open arms.

it is the fact, that all citizens of Ukraine would be not only safer but also would have more financial and social freedoms for everyone being part of Russia. The other fact is, that Russia would be a lot stronger and would cast this power projection to the world just by this historical event of Ukraine becoming part of Russia.

Can't agree there... the Ukrainians would be a lot safer with the Nazis gone (including the US and EU), and economically becoming part of Russia would also give them a much brighter future, but Russia will be made weaker because the bill to fix everything in the Ukraine will be like the bill for West Germany to reintegrate East Germany... which was crippling and still not all sorted really... they are still different people.

Adding the Ukraine will not make Russia stronger with the exception of the Crimea and that is because they ARE Russian already.

Independence is what the Ukraine wants and Russia is fine with that... the problems for the Ukraine was cutting off its main customer which destroyed its economy, and the destructive changes the west demanded the Orcs impose like banning Russian as a language... it was intended to be destructive and divisive... and lead to internal conflict... and it succeeded.

When Russia kicks out the Nazis and the guys with Swastikas the Ukraine can have another go at things with open trade with Russia it should be sorting its own shit out in no time without hand outs from anyone... if they are not anti Russian any more you can bet no aid or support from the west, but that is probably better in the long run.

If the west had actually helped Russia in the 1990s it might feel it owed them a debt of gratitude...

Being neutral, all the Ukraine needs to worry about is rebuilding their country and developing trade ties to potential customers, which I suspect will be mostly in Russia to start with but I am sure a few EU countries will want to trade... the Ukraine grows food, that will always be in demand, and the gas income will be a good earner too.

The independent Ukraine can have joint ventures with Russian companies the way western companies wont now.

Arkanghelsk wrote:They got kim???

Good riddance!!

Nevermind

Still alive it seems

https://t.me/opersvodki/1937

Latest news on the Yaroriv strike near Lvov from last week

267 dead, and around 450 injured. The amount of missing is still being determined. $400 million worth of weapons & equipment destroyed

The building(s) of the American, Romanian and Polish mercs & volunteers were destroyed, so expect many casualties from them. As well as Ukrainian officers and former NATO officers.

Can't confirm any of this naturally.

Hate this fking war..

Gotta give the Ukie's credit tho, they are exploiting the weaknesses of the Russians well and exploiting their tactics.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Gotta give the Ukie's credit tho, they are exploiting the weaknesses of the Russians well and exploiting their tactics.

By using their own civilians as human shields? Yeah, when your enemy's weakness is their desire to minimize casualties among non-combatants AND the Ukrainian military (nazis and foreign mercenaries excluded), that's very easy to exploit. Why should we give cowards like that credit for anything?

Broski wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Gotta give the Ukie's credit tho, they are exploiting the weaknesses of the Russians well and exploiting their tactics.

By using their own civilians as human shields? Yeah, when your enemy's weakness is their desire to minimize casualties among non-combatants AND the Ukrainian military (nazis and foreign mercenaries excluded), that's very easy to exploit. Why should we give cowards like that credit for anything?

An emotional fueled post, don't make these towards me. They are childish.

They took advantage of poor Russian recon, they setup proper ambushes and made the Russians pay. There are many other examples of where they exploited the russians.

Yes, they used Putins dumbass little "play nice" orders against the Russians, War isn't fair nor is it nice and last I checked exploring your enemy orders to use against them is just what I said.

"minimize casualties among non-combatants AND the Ukrainian military"

Tell your men not to kill someone trying to kill them is an exploitable weakness.

You can make up all the dam excuses you want, that doesn't change anything.

Tactics and Strategy do not care about feelings.

SeigSoloyvov wrote:

Broski wrote:

SeigSoloyvov wrote:Gotta give the Ukie's credit tho, they are exploiting the weaknesses of the Russians well and exploiting their tactics.

By using their own civilians as human shields? Yeah, when your enemy's weakness is their desire to minimize casualties among non-combatants AND the Ukrainian military (nazis and foreign mercenaries excluded), that's very easy to exploit. Why should we give cowards like that credit for anything?

An emotional fueled post, don't make these towards me. They are childish.

They took advantage of poor Russian recon, they setup proper ambushes and made the Russians pay. There are many other examples of where they exploited the russians.

Yes, they used Putins dumbass little "play nice" orders against the Russians, War isn't fair nor is it nice and last I checked exploring your enemy orders to use against them is just what I said.

"minimize casualties among non-combatants AND the Ukrainian military"

Tell your men not to kill someone trying to kill them is an exploitable weakness.

You can make up all the dam excuses you want, that doesn't change anything.

Tactics and Strategy do not care about feelings.

Using own citizens as meat-shields makes sense too. It slows Russia's military operations right down and makes them more complicated, while adding propaganda fuel. The downside is that when a city is captured, the city's residents don't mind it as at least they're not being used as shields anymore.

Those recon units in Kharkov were ambushed, because Russia allegedly had agreed with the Kharkov elites before hand that they would switch sides, like Kherson effectively did. They entered through up to 50% of the city initially. Instead Kharkov betrayed them, but probably held hostage by the huge Ukrainian garrison in the city in any case.

The thing is all Ukrainian actions are co-ordinated and supported by NATO which is next door. They get EW, warnings for air defenses, radar, satellite data, weapons deliveries, NATO officers planning operations, etc..

Of course they will find things to exploit. It's a battle of wits and adaptability

Why did the Ukrainian and Slovakian S 300 perform so poorly if they are supposed to be a good air defense system? Is it because they are export models or old?

ucmvulcan wrote:Who is, was, Kim?

Let me paraphrase famous quote
"Kim's dead baby, Kim's dead"

Hmm then again not sure if he was a target, but probably got hit while targeting military

-ignore this, my browser is slow to update, he's alive as per FP post-

andalusia wrote:Why did the Ukrainian and Slovakian S 300 perform so poorly if they are supposed to be a good air defense system? Is it because they are export models or old?

I think the Ukrainian ones were hit by Iskander ballistic missiles

The US made some noise about dart-like decoys being deployed they hadn't seen before

It only makes sense to employ such missiles against S-300s, which with the exception of the S-300V versions aren't really designed against ballistic targets in any case

The Slovakian S-300 is still in Slovakia

Regular wrote:

ucmvulcan wrote:Who is, was, Kim?

Kim's dead baby, Kim's dead

Na he put out a short vid this morning

I guess he has the sense to stay away from military facilities, all the while ordering those same servicemen to attack the Russian military for the sake of his own PR

flamming_python wrote:
Na he put out a short vid this morning

I guess he has the sense to stay away from military facilities, all the while ordering those same servicemen to attack the Russian military for the sake of his own PR

Gotcha, but does he have powers to command? Even territorial guards shouldn't listen to him. If he in fact plays a general, he's a legitimate target.

Russian Defense Ministry briefing (19.03.2022)

️ The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation continue to conduct a special military operation.

On March 18, the Kinzhal aviation missile system with hypersonic aeroballistic missiles destroyed a large underground warehouse of missiles and aviation ammunition of Ukrainian troops in the village of Delyatyn Ivano-Frankivsk region.

Coastal missile system "Bastion" destroyed radio and electronic intelligence centers of the Ukrainian armed forces in populated areasVELIKY DALNIK and VELIKODOLINSKOE Odessa region.

On the night of March 19 Russian operational-tactical, army and unmanned aircraft hit 69 military facilities in Ukraine. Among them: four command points, including the team management in the village ZABUIANNIA, four anti-aircraft missile system, of which three s-300 and one of the "Buk-M1", one radar, guidance and target acquisition, three installations of jet systems of volley fire, 12 warehouses missile and artillery weapons, as well as 43 of the places where military equipment. In addition, the Russian Aerospace Forces ' air defense systems shot down 12 aircraft in the air. Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles.

In total, 196 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles, 1,438 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 145 multiple rocket launchers, 556 field artillery and mortar guns, and 1,237 units of special military vehicles have been destroyed since the beginning of the special military operation.

At this point, I really wonder why Ukrainian forces don't mutiny.

At this point, I also wonder why Russia do not turn against the regime Sadam/Kadafi style.

Hannibal Barca wrote:At this point, I really wonder why Ukrainian forces don't mutiny.

At this point, I also wonder why Russia do not turn against the regime Sadam/Kadafi style.

They're beginning to

Already in Zaparozhie a local MP is already questioning Zelensky's orders about mobilization and why people should defend the oligarch regime

Once it starts, a chain-reaction will follow

Regular wrote:

flamming_python wrote:
Na he put out a short vid this morning

I guess he has the sense to stay away from military facilities, all the while ordering those same servicemen to attack the Russian military for the sake of his own PR

Gotcha, but does he have powers to command? Even territorial guards shouldn't listen to him. If he in fact plays a general, he's a legitimate target.

Seems he has command of local units yes, it's how the ring system of Ukrainian regional defenses are set up - although of course he'll be working with the Ukrainian general staff

GarryB wrote " If your enemy is launching nuclear weapons of any kind against you you will be forced to launch a full nuclear strike before he attacks you airfields where your nuclear bombers are based, your nuclear sub bases and your ICBM fields and locations where you road mobile ICBMs operate.Only the west thinks they can gradually escalate things from small nukes to bigger ones and then eventually the main missiles go... that is just silly.I remember reading a book by a Soviet general asked about such a scenario and he said it was as stupid as cowboys with pistols starting out swearing at each other an then throwing bottles and things and then slapping each other and then punching and then hitting each other with chairs and then going for their guns.As he points out... when you pick up that chair and advance towards him to break it over his head what is to stop him from drawing his pistol and shooting you in the head?In real war you will have requirements that need to be met to launch nukes and when met those nukes will be launched... and the enemy firing any sort of nuke at you will be the requirement .Once you escalate to strategic yes there is no going back .Which is why the wests attitude is so damn dangerous... "

I don't know about Russia's doctrine on nuclear weapons , but if what you say about the West's plan , then it makes more sense to my mind . Gradual escalation has a deterrence value , and sudden escalation to " MAD " , has no deterrence value . This is supported by your own idea that " Once you escalate to strategic yes there is no going back .Which is why the wests attitude is so damn dangerous... " . I think there can be many levels of escalation , before MAD , that both sides can walk away from .

Taking the example of " cowboys , " never escalating irreversibly , and going for the kill , at the earliest sign of either sneezing , does not rhyme with reality . In all spheres of conflict in the natural world , conflict avoidance is a major tactic , with many different levels of intensity , that allows organisms to avoid a deadly existential confrontation . And so must be with nukes . Going to a lower level of nuke confrontation , can be arranged , so as to not negate the capability to immediately engage at a higher level . It need not be contradictory . The levels can be :

( 1 )  Carry out tests in space .

( 2 )  Carry out tests in atmosphere .

( 3 ) Carry out tests , far from naval target .

( 4 ) Carry out blast near naval target .

( 5 )  Carry out blast in low yield over target .

( 6 )  Carry out higher yield over area target .

Otherwise nukes are useless ornaments without any deterrence value . Used too late , and as real weapons of mass destruction , in the face of existential threat !

While the idea Ukraine can counter offensive is silly, it's true the russians cannot afford to let this go on for to long.