Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+79
Scorpius
auslander
adder
sundoesntrise
franco
Eugenio Argentina
Atmosphere
pavi
dino00
lyle6
billybatts91
wilhelm
Singular_Transform
Arrow
higurashihougi
mnrck
ahmedfire
ATLASCUB
Hannibal Barca
ArgentinaGuard
ScotchedEarth
Ispan
nero
The Ottoman
psg
Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E
lancelot
Azi
limb
Werewolf
rigoletto
mack8
Serberus
Sujoy
OminousSpudd
GarryB
teh_beard
Yugo90
Erk
Odin of Ossetia
ucmvulcan
SolidarityWithRussia
bitcointrader70
AlfaT8
Broski
LMFS
Kriva
Big_Gazza
magnumcromagnon
thegopnik
Hole
Regular
GunshipDemocracy
Stealthflanker
medo
JohninMK
SeigSoloyvov
Mir
VARGR198
Walther von Oldenburg
Firebird
Urluber
Rasisuki Nebia
Airbornewolf
ALAMO
nomadski
Rodion_Romanovic
Vann7
George1
miketheterrible
flamming_python
par far
kvs
Isos
Karl Haushofer
EkErilaz
Arkanghelsk
Backman
d_taddei2
83 posters

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


    Posts : 2442
    Points : 2444
    Join date : 2021-12-09

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:04 am

    mack8 wrote:The only solution is high tech and very expensive, MAWS and lasers to kill the missile, not even sure if the technology is there yet.
    But self protection wise

    How does su34 protect against optical guidance? 

    Yes probably MAWS system 

    RWR would not work but a MAWS system probably would be best to let aircraft know something is coming 

    Idk about towed decoys

    Flares work, but only if pilot has advance notice

    Optical guidance is tricky, especially if you fly low, it's hard to break lock if you dont know your being shot at
    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


    Posts : 2442
    Points : 2444
    Join date : 2021-12-09

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:06 am

    Isos wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:From what I read towed decoys are good against radar guidance mostly not optical

    Flares work against optical guidance but if you are ambushed hard to deploy without warning

    Idk what is a real good solution against these hidden optical guided systems

    Not much to do but destroy them before they zre used. Increase drone use.
    Yes but if they hiding it's tough to find

    I think MAWS system is best approach, 

    Since it is expensive to arm whole fleet with, 

    Just equip selected planes for this role, of low flying after SEAD mission within potentially hostile airspace or hidden AD standalone systems

    Once you have notice that something is closing fast, shoot flares, or at least give pilot notice hes gonna get shot down and to bounce out of the area to eject farther from hostiles
    mack8
    mack8


    Posts : 996
    Points : 1050
    Join date : 2013-08-03

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  mack8 Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:17 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:
    mack8 wrote:The only solution is high tech and very expensive, MAWS and lasers to kill the missile, not even sure if the technology is there yet.
    But self protection wise

    How does su34 protect against optical guidance? 

    Yes probably MAWS system 

    RWR would not work but a MAWS system probably would be best to let aircraft know something is coming 

    Idk about towed decoys

    Flares work, but only if pilot has advance notice

    Optical guidance is tricky, especially if you fly low, it's hard to break lock if you dont know your being shot at

    Can't say i know the answer, but apart from MAWS, which for some reason Su-34 and Su-30SM does not have yet, in the specific example of Tor and Buk, they may be fired in optical mode but there must still be a radio link (the optical system telling the missiles where to go), so we go back to ECM to break radio link? But a MAWS will greatly help, at least you would know you are shot at.

    The thing with optical, both the beauty and the curse, is it's completely passive, there's no way to say it's there (at least i can't think of any way), you can only react to the missile.

    I'm not an expert so others may know more.


    Last edited by mack8 on Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


    Posts : 2442
    Points : 2444
    Join date : 2021-12-09

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:19 am

    Also if plane is low, 2 or 3 wingmen should be farther out ready to suppress whatever fired on compromised plane

    Also to provide CAS for pilot when hes down

    They CAS missions need to be backed up by another group


    Cant be lone su25 or su34 by themselves 

    Another group should be cued that enemy AD is in the area, so start looking on IR channel

    And suppress that target,  CAS is important for pilots that go down,  they cant be alone


    Double for helos, a CAP group should be close enough to respond over friendly skies , but near hostilities for quick reaction

    Also that's the importance of AWACS to coordinate CAS missions , even a su30 working in AWACS mode
    Werewolf
    Werewolf


    Posts : 5658
    Points : 5855
    Join date : 2012-10-25

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Werewolf Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:23 am

    Does someone have the original video of the shot down Mi-24, so I can see it in the original resolution, which appeared to be at least 2K or even 4K while the posted video is only 680x360 resolution.

    I have used video upscaling software with different drivers on the 680x360 resolution video, but the quality is not satisfying for any details.

    Initially I was reluctant to watch it twice, because I am not a fan of people dying even if it was enemy aircraft, thus I did not care to download it. The points mentioned, it does appear to be "odd" to say the least, but I do not believe it is fake. The reasons for the video appearing to be "odd" I would  like to explain with the original video.



    Guess no sane person enjoys wars,  but you seem to see another solution in this case. I'm very curious, what would you do in place of Putin knowing about nukes and biological WMD by your door?

    I asked Python the same thing, but in all honesty I don't think there is any alternative to a military intervention. Even assassination on Zelenksy would not work at all, that would just speed up their work on acquiring mentioned weapons. Python has no answer to this, I understand that war is not a good thing but he knows it must be done.


    Last edited by Werewolf on Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:59 am; edited 2 times in total
    flamming_python
    flamming_python


    Posts : 7334
    Points : 7410
    Join date : 2012-01-31

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  flamming_python Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:24 am

    Guess no sane person enjoys wars,  but you seem to see another solution in this case. I'm very curious, what would you do in place of Putin knowing about nukes and biological WMD by your door?

    Well the nukes thing Zelensky brought up at the Munich security conference, where he received a cold answer from the Germans. That was only a few days before the invasion.

    The biolabs - they were only brought up a few days ago. Maybe they do exist. But I doubt it's for creating bioweapons against Russians. Something like that will just spread to the rest of the world.
    Probably just some biological and viral research the US army is doing overseas because it's too risky to do it on its own territory.

    It's just some Iraq WMDs type allegation. I don't take it seriously

    There definately were problems. The British naval base. The Bayraktars. The integration with NATO. The group of forces north of the Donbass.

    And maybe the war would only have become more difficult if it was launched later.

    Dunno. I think it's Putin himself that managed to back Russia into a corner. And with all this Nord Stream 2 thing as well. And then maybe yes, war was the only option. Still Putin's fault, even then.

    I would have waited for the Ukraine to try something, at the end of the day. And simply come up with a counter for it, then launched a counter-offensive. This is important. The war will be harder, but it will have more legitimacy.

    Big_Gazza, LMFS, Backman and Broski dislike this post

    Werewolf
    Werewolf


    Posts : 5658
    Points : 5855
    Join date : 2012-10-25

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Werewolf Mon Mar 07, 2022 10:55 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Well the nukes thing Zelensky brought up at the Munich security conference, where he received a cold answer from the Germans. That was only a few days before the invasion.

    I am pretty sure the reactions of Germany will totally be effecient enough to the Ukro-fascists to know Big Brother is not approving of this, but I think they are more oriented on the original Big Brother Hitler or more Stepan Bandera. Germany has no say in anything and if Ukraine wants to get something they could, they have everything necessary to do it. That means, this verbal threat is not carrying the same weight as a threat from Zimbabwe and needs to be taken serious.

    flamming_python wrote:
    The biolabs - they were only brought up a few days ago. Maybe they do exist. But I doubt it's for creating bioweapons against Russians. Something like that will just spread to the rest of the world.
    Probably just some biological and viral research the US army is doing overseas because it's too risky to do it on its own territory.

    To dangerous to be worked on in the US? Well there is a good reason why it can not be worked on right in Russia's garden! The US has certainly not worked on some fungus and looking at what the US was doing in Wuhan where everyone was "freaked out" about a "deadly" virus then we need to take care of every one of the facilities created by Nazis and US world mafia.

    flamming_python wrote:
    It's just some Iraq WMDs type allegation. I don't take it seriously

    Russia is not known to have ever created a false flag or pretext to make an invasion. Ukro-fascists have been genociding eastern Ukrainians for 8 years, they are literal Nazis. This was enough reason and justification along with NATO at its borders. This certainly has nothing to do with Iraq WMD false flag of the US. Russian media is blocked in the entire West so who they gonna tell that? To the russians? They are in full support to liberate Ukraine from Nazis anyways, I don't see how this would even affect any person's opinion from being against to supporting.

    flamming_python wrote:
    There definately were problems. The British naval base. The Bayraktars. The integration with NATO. The group of forces north of the Donbass.

    And maybe the war would only have become more difficult if it was launched later.

    Dunno. I think it's Putin himself that managed to back Russia into a corner. And with all this Nord Stream 2 thing as well. And then maybe yes, war was the only option. Still Putin's fault, even then.

    I do not know what is up with you, but as a Russian speaking guy, who knows the language and that Putin is not a maniac like the West portrays him as, you should know that Putin did call the West constantly "our partners" while the West openly called Putin Dictator, Murderer, Enemy, Fascist, Tsarist, Communist and what not. What exactly did Putin do wrong?

    Nord Stream 2 was US's fault, they put sanctions without pretext on Europe if they would move forward with that deal, then they invented Navalny being almost "killed" by Novichok, which is obviously totally made up nonsense. That fucker looks better after Novichok just like both Skripals while people who use anthetamine look worse? How is that even possible? That shit should kill entire battalions but those fuckers survive and then proceed to make such pictures?

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 ?u=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.actu.fr%2Fuploads%2F2021%2F01%2F7749c1c854bbae41f3de33e379ca6b77d5d81004

    I would imagine that someone who survives the most lethal chemical weapon would at least have live long damage to either body or mental ability, probably both. But that fucker gave interviews left and right in RUSSIA where he was ought to be killed. That shit is just a stunt and he never was poisoned other but his 3700 Bitcoin which he received from the West.

    flamming_python wrote:
    I would have waited for the Ukraine to try something, at the end of the day. And simply come up with a counter for it, then launched a counter-offensive. This is important. The war will be harder, but it will have more legitimacy.

    Sure, but you and I have no information what is really going on. He is former FSB/KGB agent, he knows and still has tight connections along trustworthy friendships. Sometimes it is better to attack then to wait and be reacting to your enemies moves. Call me out if I am wrong, but I think it was Clausewitz who said the best way to defeat your enemy is to direct his moves to your will by acting accordingly to do so.

    I might be wrong but many on this forum were bitching around, myself included, that Putin was to weak and only reacted to western insults and warmongering. Now he does something any most people are happy about it and he does it with BRAINS, with almost no civilian deaths. If he would give the order to keep russian forces deaths low, then most probably civilians deaths would be a lot higher and I am sure you would not like that either. You strike me as a person who either is highly critical or as someone who loves to complain. I know you are not stupid but the recent posts show you have some misguided frustration. I do not think that Putin is to blame for this current development. I do blame him for other things, which are mostly political based on foreign policy towards the West and towards slavic countries. I think he did not do enough in Ukraine and Belarus or any other former Soviet Countries when he first came to power. He knew the western regimes were meddling against Russia in Georgia and other countries, but there was not really much influence from Russia spread to secure Russia's interest.

    GarryB, Hannibal Barca, Big_Gazza, GunshipDemocracy, Hole and Broski like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1377
    Points : 1379
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  lancelot Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:00 am

    flamming_python wrote:Well the nukes thing Zelensky brought up at the Munich security conference, where he received a cold answer from the Germans. That was only a few days before the invasion.

    The biolabs - they were only brought up a few days ago. Maybe they do exist. But I doubt it's for creating bioweapons against Russians. Something like that will just spread to the rest of the world.
    Probably just some biological and viral research the US army is doing overseas because it's too risky to do it on its own territory.

    It's just some Iraq WMDs type allegation. I don't take it seriously
    I would not totally discount it. At least the nuclear threat. More than one Ukraine politician several years back insinuated they could make a dirty bomb. i.e. a radiological weapon.
    Ukraine used to be a major center for ICBM production in the Soviet Union and the infrastructure is still there and operational. They also had the Grom missile project which is a copy of Iskander.
    Ukraine has a lot of nuclear power plants. They have huge uranium mines in the country. They had a deal with US Westinghouse to make nuclear fuel rods in Ukraine.
    North Korea managed to make nukes and delivery systems with way less capability than that.
    So ignoring Zelensky's threat would have been foolhardy. Particularly because I have been hearing similar threats from Ukrainian politicians for years already.

    Werewolf, Big_Gazza, zepia, GunshipDemocracy, Hole and Broski like this post

    Airbornewolf
    Airbornewolf


    Posts : 1135
    Points : 1203
    Join date : 2014-02-06
    Location : https://odysee.com/@airbornewolf:8

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Airbornewolf Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:01 am

    Werewolf wrote:Does someone have the original video of the shot down Mi-24, so I can see it in the original resolution, which appeared to be at least 2K or even 4K while the posted video is only 680x480 resolution.

    I have used video upscaling software with different drivers on the 680x480 resolution video, but the quality is not satisfying for any details.

    Initially I was reluctant to watch it twice, because I am not a fan of people dying even if it was enemy aircraft, thus I did not care to download it. The points mentioned, it does appear to be "odd" to say the least, but I do not believe it is fake. The reasons for the video appearing to be "odd" I would  like to explain with the original video.


    seems I can not PM you Werewolf. I never seen the 2k/4k out there.
    I got an 1280x720P version. 9MB. tough. if you are interested.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YCGwOT4xc_DZWo9CwWgemEGg4XH5X7BK/view?usp=sharing

    I do not post archives/footage here anymore, but have a freebie Smile.

    Ill remove the above link in 24 hours or when you confirm of receiving it.

    Werewolf likes this post

    Arkanghelsk
    Arkanghelsk


    Posts : 2442
    Points : 2444
    Join date : 2021-12-09

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Arkanghelsk Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:09 am

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Screen32

    Situation , Moving towards Odessa, in the North, movement into Zhitomyr
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5547
    Points : 5575
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:22 am

    flamming_python wrote:
    Probably just some biological and viral research the US army is doing overseas because it's too risky to do it on its own territory.

    It's just some Iraq WMDs type allegation. I don't take it seriously


    to me is 50-50 with WMD. Let's assume it's not true then something else had to trigger war. BTW how would you comment Russians securing NPPs but not shutting them down?



    FP wrote:
    Dunno. I think it's Putin himself that managed to back Russia into a corner. And with all this Nord Stream 2 thing as well. And then maybe yes, war was the only option. Still Putin's fault, even then.

    Constructive critics please, what would you do not to get Russia cornered?


    FP wrote:
    I would have waited for the Ukraine to try something, at the end of the day. And simply come up with a counter for it, then launched a counter-offensive. This is important. The war will be harder, but it will have more legitimacy.

    They tried since 2014. But Russian weapons and economy weren't ready. They might still not be now but at least there is hope now. With new technologies and import replacements there is a good chance to survive.


    Do I get it right that on place of Putin you'd wait till Ukraine attacks Russia as member of NATO? or with WMD (potentially biotical or nuclear) and risk lives of hundredths thousands or millions of Russians for sake of legitimacy? And legitimacy according to who? US/NATO? Fro them t would not be legitimate either way,


    GarryB, Werewolf, Big_Gazza, kvs and Broski like this post

    EkErilaz
    EkErilaz


    Posts : 125
    Points : 127
    Join date : 2022-02-24
    Location : Scandinavia

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  EkErilaz Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:29 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:Those eniks e95 drones very interesting, I guess that's what silenced Ukrainian S300s

    The standalone buks and tors are tough though, even if they are alone they can still do an ambush as the missile capabilities with optical tracking are good

    Manpads also played a role in some of these ambushes

    What tactics would someone suggest against these hidden types? Which only activate in optical mode?

    What kind of tool would help to either suppress the missiles/systems themselves which are being aimed optically?

    Israelis destroyed Kubs and Kvadrat only with extensive HUMINT and knowing the presence of such systems before hand

    In real war, it's harder to localize those systems

    But what suggestions do you have? How does one suppress optical channels?

    Maybe stocks of more eniks?


    I think very accurate, and fresh HUMINT is the only thing that can find them, unless there is an abundance of drones to use and the loss of the drones does not impact other operations. Satellites might also play a small part.
    Another thing that is VERY important is a streamlined fast way for this information to go from the reporter to the guys who are tasked with destroying the target. And i think, it is only a hunch, that Russian assets have a problem here, unless the shooting platform is organic to the organisation that gathers the intel. But i might be wrong. That stuff is hard, information dissemination and sharing is the first thing out the window when your staffs get overwhelmed.

    The thing that most people forget is that losses are a fact of war, and a large part of war is about accepting losses.
    If 10 people die so that 100 can live or achieve a critical mission it is a good trade.
    But we have all forgot this because of indoctrination in the media who makes a big fuss about losses.
    Every dead soldier is a tragedy sure, but you can not conduct war at this scale without terrible losses on both sides.
    I remember during the cold war, there were calculations in Sweden made about the survival rate of our air force who's primary mission was to stop marine and airborne landings from the soviet union.
    The estimate was that almost 100% of it would be lost during the first day, flying very aggressive attack missions against soviet landing ships at sea.
    But it was a calculated sacrifice in hopes of giving the country more time for mobilization.
    The same might be true here, except for the loss of sanity and pride of the armchair generals on this forum.
    I would sacrifice any high tech airborne platform like a su-34 to destroy, lets say, a warehouse or convoy containing 500 javelins or stingers.
    Because right now, the number of su-34s is not critical to the war, a few losses will not move the scales at all. But 500 javelins could stop an offensive.

    Broski and Arkanghelsk like this post

    Backman
    Backman


    Posts : 1712
    Points : 1720
    Join date : 2020-11-11

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Backman Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:32 am

    There will be some ppl here who actually believe this happened. This is a face saving story for the Western public. A fake story that the Russians were most likely notified about.

    Werewolf
    Werewolf


    Posts : 5658
    Points : 5855
    Join date : 2012-10-25

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Werewolf Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:36 am

    Airbornewolf wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:Does someone have the original video of the shot down Mi-24, so I can see it in the original resolution, which appeared to be at least 2K or even 4K while the posted video is only 680x480 resolution.

    I have used video upscaling software with different drivers on the 680x480 resolution video, but the quality is not satisfying for any details.

    Initially I was reluctant to watch it twice, because I am not a fan of people dying even if it was enemy aircraft, thus I did not care to download it. The points mentioned, it does appear to be "odd" to say the least, but I do not believe it is fake. The reasons for the video appearing to be "odd" I would  like to explain with the original video.


    seems I can not PM you Werewolf. I never seen the 2k/4k out there.
    I got an 1280x720P version. 9MB. tough. if you are interested.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YCGwOT4xc_DZWo9CwWgemEGg4XH5X7BK/view?usp=sharing

    I do not post archives/footage here anymore, but have a freebie Smile.

    Ill remove the above link in 24 hours or when you confirm of receiving it.

    Thank you very much, Airborne. The video is certainly in a lot better quality and also appears to be closer to the original in resolution and frame rate which is not 24 FPS like posted before but 30 FPS so the video appears overall smoother. The original I think was closer to 60 FPS but was removed by The Independent. I am currently upscaling the video to 4K and it looks promising but takes almost 4 hours to upscale the video.

    Airbornewolf and JohninMK like this post

    d_taddei2
    d_taddei2


    Posts : 2630
    Points : 2806
    Join date : 2013-05-11
    Location : Scotland UK

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  d_taddei2 Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:38 am

    for MANPADS and MAWS Russia has President -S which can detect and automatically fire chaff/flares and lasers but as previously stated time to detect Vs distance could be an issue.  Belarus have their own system Talisman and other systems description of Talisman below

    The 'Talisman' ADS is designed for operational aircraft protection against:

    All types of Air-to-Air (AAMs) and Surface-to-Air (SAMs) guided missiles armed with active (semi-active) radar seekers.
    All types of Air-to-Air (AAMs) and Surface-to-Air (SAMs) guided missiles armed with electro-optical (infrared) seekers.
    Ground-based air defense systems, employing command-guided SAMs.
    The ADS 'Talisman' also ensures aircraft protection against the ‘friendly fire’ of air intercept missile systems as well as ground-based air defense systems.

    Main advantages and singularity:

    Automatic (with no pilot/operator's input) jamming generation against all hostile illumination RESs.
    No restrictions on the number of the simultaneously jammed on-board and ground-based RESs.
    Total exclusion of the ADS-carrier self-radiation.
    The employment of the ADS places no restrictions on the air combat tactics of the aircraft under protection.
    When in close formation, the ADS-carrier securely covers a friendly neighbouring aircraft with no EPE.
    Full electromagnetic compatibility with the self radio electronic equipment of the aircraft under protection.


    Belarus offers Talisman, Amulet, Kalina and Mirage. Mirage is the ground based version mounted on small structures or vehicles.  There was arms show article a while ago stating that these systems were some of the cheapest on the market. The link below is the catalogue link if you want to download and get the specifications on each system

    https://defin.by/defense_initiatives_production.pdf


    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:41 am; edited 1 time in total

    Regular and Arkanghelsk like this post

    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 1377
    Points : 1379
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  lancelot Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:40 am

    A lot of people forget this but in 2014 Russia was still importing food from the West.
    Commerce with China was a tiny fraction of all commerce Russia made. All trade with China was in dollars.
    Just entering Ukraine willy-nilly would have been impossible without fatal repercussions for Russia's population.
    The army modernization had also only started recently and was not at high a stage of completion.
    You could argue the army was more capable than Ukraine's then. That Ukraine's army is much stronger now. That is correct.
    But the economic factors simply made such a war impossible back then.


    Last edited by lancelot on Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total

    GarryB, flamming_python, Werewolf, Hannibal Barca, Big_Gazza, kvs, auslander and like this post


    Sponsored content


    Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4 - Page 40 Empty Re: Russian special military operation in Ukraine #4

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:04 pm