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Log inThe frigate "Admiral Isakov" is planned to be launched in the first half of 2024
https://ria.ru/20230920/fregat-1897600803.html
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Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3
Krepost- Posts : 799
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https://ria.ru/20230920/fregat-1897600803.html
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AMCXXL
AMCXXL- Posts : 1043
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3x pr.22350 are already at the Severomorsk docks
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AMCXXL- Posts : 1043
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Big_Gazza- Posts : 5023
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Now they need to get Adm Isakov launched. No more BS excuses. Get it done, or else start arresting and jailing the management at Severnaya Verf. 
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In some ways, it's a good thing they didn't launch it
Think about it, what takes up more resources and experience, creating, testing, setting up production lines, training, and producing marine gas turbine engines
Or launching a hull?
Launching a hull is a task which can be done by most shipyards around the world
Launching a hull is not too difficult, granted, metal work is a precision science, but it can be mastered for the most part by most nations with a shipbuilding industry
But manufacture of MGT and associated powertrain and drive train is a difficult endeavor
And if you recall, the MOD itself launched a lawsuit against Pella Shipyard and the Zvezda engine maker, precisely because Pella just wanted to launch a bunch of hulls to get paid,
But the engine production and installation was completely ignored, leading to a huge delay in project 22800
So it's better to have the engine issue sorted, before giving a Shipyard tons of money to launch hulls that will sit in docks for 10 years, because the corrupt Shipyard doesn't care whether the ship becomes functional at project end,
They just want their money to move onto the next project, and they don't assume any accountability over it
So while launching a hull for a big ship like 22350 is no easy task, it's certainly not the bottleneck on the production side
The engines are infinitely more important to sort before continuing to project, and judging by Admiral Golovkos performance, it seems Russian shipbuilding industry has made a massive breakthrough in this area
Think about it, what takes up more resources and experience, creating, testing, setting up production lines, training, and producing marine gas turbine engines
Or launching a hull?
Launching a hull is a task which can be done by most shipyards around the world
Launching a hull is not too difficult, granted, metal work is a precision science, but it can be mastered for the most part by most nations with a shipbuilding industry
But manufacture of MGT and associated powertrain and drive train is a difficult endeavor
And if you recall, the MOD itself launched a lawsuit against Pella Shipyard and the Zvezda engine maker, precisely because Pella just wanted to launch a bunch of hulls to get paid,
But the engine production and installation was completely ignored, leading to a huge delay in project 22800
So it's better to have the engine issue sorted, before giving a Shipyard tons of money to launch hulls that will sit in docks for 10 years, because the corrupt Shipyard doesn't care whether the ship becomes functional at project end,
They just want their money to move onto the next project, and they don't assume any accountability over it
So while launching a hull for a big ship like 22350 is no easy task, it's certainly not the bottleneck on the production side
The engines are infinitely more important to sort before continuing to project, and judging by Admiral Golovkos performance, it seems Russian shipbuilding industry has made a massive breakthrough in this area
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Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2723
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Concerning the engines (now made in Rybinsk by Saturn) yes.
Now I have not read much about it, but a few years ago it was reported however that the company Zvezda in Sankt Petersburg had instead problems with the naval reduction gears for the 22350 engines.
Previously both the Gas turbine and reduction gears were made by (the now defunct and probably destroyed) zorya mashproekt in Nikolaev.
There are still a lot of responsibilities by the shipyard anyway. Hopefully soon for this project every component will be available and a decent production rates will be guaranteed.
For all the contractors: it would be important to have a large order from the navy, otherwise it will also not be justified for them any investment on improving productivity if only for a very limited batch
Now I have not read much about it, but a few years ago it was reported however that the company Zvezda in Sankt Petersburg had instead problems with the naval reduction gears for the 22350 engines.
Previously both the Gas turbine and reduction gears were made by (the now defunct and probably destroyed) zorya mashproekt in Nikolaev.
There are still a lot of responsibilities by the shipyard anyway. Hopefully soon for this project every component will be available and a decent production rates will be guaranteed.
For all the contractors: it would be important to have a large order from the navy, otherwise it will also not be justified for them any investment on improving productivity if only for a very limited batch
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GarryB- Posts : 40962
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Once all the finicky details are sorted out they should be able to order them in much larger batches where one shipyard might get an order for 6 to 10 at least and if they do a good job then a follow on order for the same or more.
Making one off ships is slow and expensive, but serial mass production of one type is where they make money because new problems don't come up generally.
Making one off ships is slow and expensive, but serial mass production of one type is where they make money because new problems don't come up generally.
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limb- Posts : 1550
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why can russia produce reduction gears for the turbines for nuclear submarines with extreme quieting and precision requirements but has problems with reduction gears for gas turbines
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Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Now I have not read much about it, but a few years ago it was reported however that the company Zvezda in Sankt Petersburg had instead problems with the naval reduction gears for the 22350 engines.
limb wrote:why can russia produce reduction gears for the turbines for nuclear submarines with extreme quieting and precision requirements but has problems with reduction gears for gas turbines
All I've heard are unspecific rumours from internet "sources" that are much less than authoritative.
Golovko sea trials seems to be going well. Sounds to me like the usual trash talking from NAFO wretches and the (few remaining) Russian 5th columnists.
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GarryB- Posts : 40962
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Have heard the propulsion systems on the new Royal Navy Destroyers are awful and those ships can be heard via sonar from enormous distances, not to mention they break down operating in warmer waters, and reliability problems in other areas.
We have seen in this conflict that the Russian military finds problems and gets solutions and doesn't ignore issues or brush them under the mat like the west does.
If there are real problems then solutions will be on the way.
We have seen in this conflict that the Russian military finds problems and gets solutions and doesn't ignore issues or brush them under the mat like the west does.
If there are real problems then solutions will be on the way.
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https://flotprom.ru/2023/%D0%90%D1%81%D0%B717/
So with this potential order for 6 ships at Amur shiyard the total should go to 16 ships of this class (2 in service, 1 almost ready to be commissioned (Golovko), one that will be soon completed and that hopefully should go soon in state tests (isakov), 4 in various states of construction and 2 additional ordered (for Severnaya beef) but not which construction did not start yet).
I hope they continue 22350 production even after starting with 22350M.
Amur Shipyard received a license to produce Project 22350 frigates
December 7, 2023 at 8:55 am Topic: Industry
The Amur Shipyard in Komsomolsk-on-Amur received a license to build a new type of ship for the enterprise - Project 22350 frigates. The Ministry of Industry and Trade of the Khabarovsk Territory reported this to TASS .
“The Amur Shipyard received a license to carry out the development, production, testing, installation, installation, maintenance, repair, disposal and sale of weapons and military equipment. The list of licensed products also includes promising warships of Project 22350 of the Frigate class,” the statement said. department.
To fulfill such orders, the company modernized construction sites, passed certification of technical parameters, and also received a license to train basic workers directly at the plant.
In June, the plant laid down a launching dock pontoon, which received the name "Amurets". In the spring of 2024, the plant will begin construction of a transport dock designed to move large-capacity ships to the delivery base in Vladivostok. Currently, work is underway to complete design and estimate documentation for an investment project to modernize the delivery base, as well as the factory hydraulic unit.
The head of the industry department of the regional Ministry of Industry and Trade, Alexei Abrosimov, previously announced that the production of Project 22350 frigates was included in the enterprise’s production program.
In February, TASS, citing a source in the military-industrial complex, reported that the plant was ready to begin construction of Project 22350 frigates for the Pacific Fleet next year. We are talking about a potential order for six ships of this type.
Now the only builder of frigates of Project 22350 remains the St. Petersburg Severnaya Verf, which transferred two such ships to the Navy ( Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov and Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov ). Another frigate, Admiral Golovko , is preparing to be commissioned.
The Amur Shipyard fulfills its obligations under contracts with the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, under which the shipyard must transfer to the Russian fleet two corvettes of Project 20380 and four corvettes of Project 20385. A contract for the supply of four small missile ships of Project 22800 (code "Karakurt") is also being implemented.
So with this potential order for 6 ships at Amur shiyard the total should go to 16 ships of this class (2 in service, 1 almost ready to be commissioned (Golovko), one that will be soon completed and that hopefully should go soon in state tests (isakov), 4 in various states of construction and 2 additional ordered (for Severnaya beef) but not which construction did not start yet).
I hope they continue 22350 production even after starting with 22350M.
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- Post n°212
Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3
The-thing-next-door Mon Dec 11, 2023 5:32 am
Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
I hope they continue 22350 production even after starting with 22350M.
Why? After the current order of 22350s they will have enough to defend their territorial waters. They should then focus on larger vessels like the Super Gorshkov and Lider in order to protect their interests in the open ocean and on other continents.
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Unfortunately I doubt the Admiral Isakov will enter service any time soon. The ship just seems to be sitting there in dry land since its engines were delivered. The Severnaya Verf shipyard probably has money issues right now. The Admiral Golovko hasn't been delivered yet. The Provornyy burned down peerside and is being rebuilt at the shipyard's own expenses. The shipyard is being sued by the government for these delays.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:So with this potential order for 6 ships at Amur shiyard the total should go to 16 ships of this class (2 in service, 1 almost ready to be commissioned (Golovko), one that will be soon completed and that hopefully should go soon in state tests (isakov), 4 in various states of construction and 2 additional ordered (for Severnaya beef) but not which construction did not start yet).
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The-thing-next-door wrote:
Why? After the current order of 22350s they will have enough to defend their territorial waters. They should then focus on larger vessels like the Super Gorshkov and Lider in order to protect their interests in the open ocean and on other continents.
Because they are good ships, they can be used also a bit further away than territorial waters and because finally Russia mastered production.
Five or Six 22350 for major fleet (so 20 or 24 total) would be a good number, with the Pacific and Northern fleet also getting several 22350M destroyers each.
Furthermore they could also propose them for export.
In this case it is a good thing that they will be building them also in Amur, and as I wrote in another post probably starting production in another yard as well (after Amur will have started building theirs) will also be important.Lancelot wrote:Unfortunately I doubt the Admiral Isakov will enter service any time soon. The ship just seems to be sitting there in dry land since its engines were delivered. The Severnaya Verf shipyard probably has money issues right now. The Admiral Golovko hasn't been delivered yet. The Provornyy burned down peerside and is being rebuilt at the shipyard's own expenses. The shipyard is being sued by the government for these delays.
The additional shipyard (Yantar in Kaliningrad, Zaliv in Kerch or possibly even a rebuild Nikolaev north shipyard after the SMO) could start first with a couple 22350 and then move to the 22350M (I am not sure if Amur shiyard can build a destroyer with similar size to Udaloy class).
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lancelot- Posts : 3190
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I think a good yardstick is the Japanese Navy. Japan have a roughly similar population and economy size to Russia. They have 23 conventional submarines, 4 helicopter destroyers, 8 cruisers, 28 destroyers, and 10 frigates. Russia should aim for a navy at least like that.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Because they are good ships, they can be used also a bit further away than territorial waters and because finally Russia mastered production.The-thing-next-door wrote:Why? After the current order of 22350s they will have enough to defend their territorial waters. They should then focus on larger vessels like the Super Gorshkov and Lider in order to protect their interests in the open ocean and on other continents.
Five or Six 22350 for major fleet (so 20 or 24 total) would be a good number, with the Pacific and Northern fleet also getting several 22350M destroyers each.
Given that Project 22350 is the most capable in production large ship that Russia has they should continue to order it in larger numbers. Just for reference the Chinese have 30 Type 054 frigates despite having loads of destroyers and cruisers. These are multi purpose ships and much cheaper to operate than a destroyer. I would have to agree that 20 or 24 frigates for Russia sounds like a reasonable number. But I wouldn't put too many of them in the Baltic or the Black Sea. I think you could have like four frigates in the Baltic and Black Sea and six in the Northern and Pacific Fleets.
Another thing which I think needs to happen is the continuation of the production of the Project 20380/5 corvettes for the Northern, Baltic, and Black Sea fleets. Just looking at the numbers they should be building at least 18 more of these ships to replace the Grisha and Parchim class corvettes.
I think they should build the Project 22350 at Yantar. Right now building ships in Crimea is kind of dangerous. I wonder what will happen to the LHDs.Rodion_Romanovic wrote:The additional shipyard (Yantar in Kaliningrad, Zaliv in Kerch or possibly even a rebuild Nikolaev north shipyard after the SMO) could start first with a couple 22350 and then move to the 22350M (I am not sure if Amur shiyard can build a destroyer with similar size to Udaloy class).
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lancelot wrote:
I think a good yardstick is the Japanese Navy. Japan have a roughly similar population and economy size to Russia. They have 23 conventional submarines, 4 helicopter destroyers, 8 cruisers, 28 destroyers, and 10 frigates. Russia should aim for a navy at least like that.
Japan is a set of islands, with economy extremely dependant on sea routes.
It is surrounded by nations having territorial disputes for multiple territories.
Russia is a giant landmass, with bulk of it's export carried by land corridors, or seas that can be considered their own.
We are comparing apples to oranges here. Russia won't have the same imperatives Japan has.
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Most of the Japanese "Destroyers" are Frigates.
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I classified the ships by displacement, not the role the Japanese give to them. I assigned ships with 9000-11000 tons displacement as cruisers, and ships with 6000-7000 displacement as destroyers.Hole wrote:Most of the Japanese "Destroyers" are Frigates.
You can't exactly have a direct mapping between both navies. Like you people said the oceans around both countries are different. So of course Russia has more lightweight vessels that need to operate in constrained bodies of water like the Baltic and Black Sea. The Russian Project 20380/5 despite its classification as a corvette is basically a light frigate. And Russia operates a lot of missile corvettes like the Buyan and Karakurt.
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Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
Amur Shipyard received a license to produce Project 22350 frigates
This a logical step forward. Next should be the resumption of nuclear subs at Amur.[/quote]
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Hole wrote:Most of the Japanese "Destroyers" are Frigates.
For Japanese people they are more like cruisers
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Terminology is not important today. Most japanese ships use the very good AEGIS like system and the same missiles.
However it is not good gainst Zirkon or Kinzhal. So any of their ship will be destroyed.
Difference between Cruisers, destroyers and frigates mattered only when they used to have different guns. Generally the bigger the ship, the bigger the gun or the missile. For exemple the Sovs destroyer where armed with the 120km Moskit and the bigger Slava cruiser with the 700km P-500 Bazalt. It was even more importan before missile era, when ships had only guns.
Nowadays, ships have all the same missiles systems so it's not a matter of cruiser vs frigate but antiship missiles vs AD systems. So be it a japanese frigate or destroyer, none of them can counter the Zirkon. The destroy has more tubes but the same useless missiles inside.
However it is not good gainst Zirkon or Kinzhal. So any of their ship will be destroyed.
Difference between Cruisers, destroyers and frigates mattered only when they used to have different guns. Generally the bigger the ship, the bigger the gun or the missile. For exemple the Sovs destroyer where armed with the 120km Moskit and the bigger Slava cruiser with the 700km P-500 Bazalt. It was even more importan before missile era, when ships had only guns.
Nowadays, ships have all the same missiles systems so it's not a matter of cruiser vs frigate but antiship missiles vs AD systems. So be it a japanese frigate or destroyer, none of them can counter the Zirkon. The destroy has more tubes but the same useless missiles inside.
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Well the Japanese have some of the most modern naval radars in the world. Some of their destroyers have GaN radar.
Their latest ships are also highly automated. The Mogami class frigate has 90 crew. Compare that with 210 crew for the Admiral Gorshkov.
Unlike Russia they have been able to put 2-3 frigates into service per year. The Japanese together with the South Koreans and Chinese are the among the world's top 3 shipbuilders.
The Admiral Gorshkov has a better weapons layout and better weapons than the Mogami class. But the Mogami class is probably the best Western frigate in its displacement class right now and one of the best in the world. I would rate it second in capabilities after the Admiral Gorshkov class.
The Japanese did invest in the SM-6 Block IB missile. So if anything in the West can intercept the hypersonic missiles it would be that.
Their latest ships are also highly automated. The Mogami class frigate has 90 crew. Compare that with 210 crew for the Admiral Gorshkov.
Unlike Russia they have been able to put 2-3 frigates into service per year. The Japanese together with the South Koreans and Chinese are the among the world's top 3 shipbuilders.
The Admiral Gorshkov has a better weapons layout and better weapons than the Mogami class. But the Mogami class is probably the best Western frigate in its displacement class right now and one of the best in the world. I would rate it second in capabilities after the Admiral Gorshkov class.
The Japanese did invest in the SM-6 Block IB missile. So if anything in the West can intercept the hypersonic missiles it would be that.
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The mogami class is a decent frigate with similar size to 22350.
The project is much newer and of course much more automatisation has been used.
Nevertheless I fear that the crew size is too small for actual war operations.
Furthermore a certain amount of the crew is needed to properly operate and support the weapons systems.
Albeit having the almost the same size, the Mogami class is much less armed than the 22350.
22350 Gorshkov class
1 × 130 mm Amethyst/Arsenal A-192M naval gun
32 (4 ×
UKSK VLS cells for Kalibr, Oniks, Zircon or Otvet anti-submarine missiles (starting from the 5th ship in the serie, the First 4 ships have 16 (2x8 UKSK VLS cells
32 (4 × Redut VLS cells for 9M96, 9M96M, 9M96D/9M96DM(M2) and/or quad-packed 9M100 surface-to-air missiles
2 × Palash CIWS each with twin Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-6-30 6 barrel 30 mm rotary cannons.
2 × 4 330 mm torpedo tubes for Paket-NK anti-torpedo/anti-submarine torpedoes
2 × 14.5 mm MTPU pedestal machine guns
Mogami class
1 × 5 in (127 mm) Mk-45 Mod 4 naval gun
2 × missile canisters for a total of 8 Type 17 anti-ship missiles
1 × SeaRAM Type 12 torpedoes
Simplified mine laying equipment
16 × Mk-41 VLS Naval version of Type 03 Chū-SAM
Type 07 VLA
2 × Remote weapon station
So the Japanese frigate has half of the SAM dedicated VLS and has no real serious attack VLS.
The type 17 antiship missiles are comparable to the russian KH-35 Uran.
So basically apart from the endurance, this class of ship has similar capability as baseline 20380 large corvette (which carries 2x4 KH-35 launchers)
The project is much newer and of course much more automatisation has been used.
Nevertheless I fear that the crew size is too small for actual war operations.
Furthermore a certain amount of the crew is needed to properly operate and support the weapons systems.
Albeit having the almost the same size, the Mogami class is much less armed than the 22350.
22350 Gorshkov class
1 × 130 mm Amethyst/Arsenal A-192M naval gun
32 (4 ×
UKSK VLS cells for Kalibr, Oniks, Zircon or Otvet anti-submarine missiles (starting from the 5th ship in the serie, the First 4 ships have 16 (2x8 UKSK VLS cells32 (4 ×
Redut VLS cells for 9M96, 9M96M, 9M96D/9M96DM(M2) and/or quad-packed 9M100 surface-to-air missiles2 × Palash CIWS each with twin Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-6-30 6 barrel 30 mm rotary cannons.
2 × 4 330 mm torpedo tubes for Paket-NK anti-torpedo/anti-submarine torpedoes
2 × 14.5 mm MTPU pedestal machine guns
Mogami class
1 × 5 in (127 mm) Mk-45 Mod 4 naval gun
2 × missile canisters for a total of 8 Type 17 anti-ship missiles
1 × SeaRAM Type 12 torpedoes
Simplified mine laying equipment
16 × Mk-41 VLS Naval version of Type 03 Chū-SAM
Type 07 VLA
2 × Remote weapon station
So the Japanese frigate has half of the SAM dedicated VLS and has no real serious attack VLS.
The type 17 antiship missiles are comparable to the russian KH-35 Uran.
So basically apart from the endurance, this class of ship has similar capability as baseline 20380 large corvette (which carries 2x4 KH-35 launchers)
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I did say the Admiral Gorshkov was better armed. But Mogami is at least reasonably armed. Compare it with the LCS...
Even if you compare the Mogami with some of the better Western frigates of similar displacement like the Meko-A200, or the Amiral Ronarc'h it doesn't do poorly.
In theory the Mk-41 VLS can also quad-pack the ESSM. If the Japanese choose to do this or not it is their problem.
They are also developing stealthy subsonic naval attack cruise missiles, and they already have supersonic air launched anti-ship missiles. So they might improve the anti-ship missiles eventually.
Of course future Project 22350 ships will also increase the amount of anti-ship VLS cells even further. So I expect the weapons disparity to continue.
But this does show that at least in terms of crew automation the Admiral Gorshkov design is starting to fall behind.
Even if you compare the Mogami with some of the better Western frigates of similar displacement like the Meko-A200, or the Amiral Ronarc'h it doesn't do poorly.
In theory the Mk-41 VLS can also quad-pack the ESSM. If the Japanese choose to do this or not it is their problem.
They are also developing stealthy subsonic naval attack cruise missiles, and they already have supersonic air launched anti-ship missiles. So they might improve the anti-ship missiles eventually.
Of course future Project 22350 ships will also increase the amount of anti-ship VLS cells even further. So I expect the weapons disparity to continue.
But this does show that at least in terms of crew automation the Admiral Gorshkov design is starting to fall behind.
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I would rather compare it with the last 20385/6 light frigates.
Even against it in 1 vs 1 I would put my money on the russian ship. UKSK allows zirkon on it and can carry a ka-31 awacs helicopter.
Even against it in 1 vs 1 I would put my money on the russian ship. UKSK allows zirkon on it and can carry a ka-31 awacs helicopter.
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