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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] #2

    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Fri Nov 17, 2023 1:56 pm

    Looks like the monster is ready….


    MOSCOW, November 17. /TASS/. The physical launch of two reactors of the Admiral Nakhimov heavy nuclear missile cruiser (TARKR) of Project 11442M during repair and modernization at Sevmash is planned for the third ten days of November. A source in the Russian shipbuilding industry reported this to TASS.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/19311565

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    Post  GarryB Sat Nov 18, 2023 12:52 am

    For those thinking it is not worth it it depends on purpose, they are going to be making frigates so not fixing this cruise up wont change that... if they want to spend that money on more frigates then those frigates get added to the end of the queue because they wont push a cruiser off a slipway and put four frigate hulls there and start work building four extra frigates.

    Equally the future Russian surface ship groups are going to need excellent air defence systems and the air defence sensors and weapons you can put on a cruiser are vastly superior to anything going on a frigate... in fact when they have their new destroyers and new cruisers they likely wont even take frigates with them because they will slow the group down... and it will likely be destroyers and cruisers that have the serious ABM systems to defend themselves from ballistic missile and hypersonic missile attack.

    Remember that the US has Standard SM2 surface to air missiles which are similar to S-300 which means mach 5-6 so they do have hypersonic anti ship missiles... but they fly on very predictable flight paths and if they try to manouver they will bleed speed because they will be huge and unpowered.

    When the west finally gets hypersonic anti ship missiles Russia will have had a decade of practise defending itself from such weapons and will be rather more ready than any western group of ships.

    When the job is moving furniture you don't think... wow 2 million dollars for a big truck is too expensive... i will just buy 50 cars and save some money... the manning demands for 50 cars, not to mention all the jobs you lose because you can't take big items and of course all the extra fuel you burn and coordination problems you create when some don't get to where you are going... if you want to trade internationally then you do it by sea and you need a decent navy to support that or you will get your transport ships seized by countries who know you don't have a navy that can do anything about it.

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    Podlodka77
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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:09 am

    If the cost of modernizing one such cruiser would amount to 3 or 4 project 22350 frigates, as some write, then the whole job pays off.
    On the other hand, the first 4 frigates of project 22350 have less striking power than "Nakhimov". One "Nakhimov" alone against the first four frigates of project 22350; it has more UKSK, a far more versatile air defense system and a far greater range, one less helicopter, nuclear propulsion, an immeasurably higher sailing speed and radius. The only thing is that it is not known how many Paket-NK systems will be installed on the ship.

    Perhaps it is better to have four smaller ships and not keep all eggs in one basket, but the more versatile air defense on the "Nakhimov" again gives that ship a better chance compared to the first 4 frigates of project 22350. And most importantly, the speed of construction of those frigates has not yet reached the desired level . Therefore, I would rather sacrifice "Marshal Ustinov" and "Varyag" than "Peter the Great". The potential for modernization is far greater on 1144 cruisers.
    The cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" will most likely not be operational until at least 2025, and when it finally becomes operational, it will probably serve for no less than 20 years and maybe until 2050.

    As for the other four frigates, that is, from the 5th to the 8th, project 22350, with 24 missiles (per ship) in UKSK, they would surpass "Nakhimov" and its striking power. And if we are talking about 32 missiles per ship, then even three frigates would surpass "Nakhimov". However, there is no hint that the number of missiles has been increased for air defense, as well as whether close air defense will be strengthened with "Pantsir-M".
    If Russia proves that it is able to deliver one frigate from 2025 and launch another one in the same year, then it is pointless to spend money on older ships. Although, withdrawing "Peter the Great", who has only been in service for 24 years, is a sin and idiocy. As I wrote, I would sacrifice both project 1164 cruisers first, which are non-nuclear, are older, and have far less potential for modernization.

    Let these two bad boys (Pavel and Peter) keep sailing the seas…



    Last edited by Podlodka77 on Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  Arrow Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:22 am

    Admiral Nahimov should be scrapped. Loading a huge amount of resources into this ship is a waste of resources.
    .

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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:38 am

    And nuclear powered aircraft carriers should be scrapped.
    Any hit to such a ship would knock it out of gear at the very least.
    The reason for this is that no air defense system is 100% accurate and if the "Nakhimov" is a waste of resources then I am convinced that the "Arleigh Burke" destroyers would DEFINITELY not defend the carrier.

    If there's one thing I'd like to see, it's to finally dispel the myth about aircraft carriers. Neither aviation is a wunderwaffe nor is a 100,000 ton floating coffin indestructible.
    Since World War II, those huge cans have not been used against a serious opponent. For decades, neither modern missiles, nor submarines, aviation - nothing threatened them.

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    Post  Arrow Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:43 am

    Of course, aircraft carriers are overrated. This is a floating target for advanced enemys.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat Nov 18, 2023 9:53 am

    I am convinced that any surface ship, even if it has 100 anti-aircraft missiles, will be hit by at least 2 out of 10 modern anti-ship missiles.
    And I mean a missile like the P-800 "Onyx" or even 3M-54 Kalibr, while the H47M2 "Kinzhal" and especially the 3M22 "Zircon" would have much better chances.
    So one "Arleigh Burke" would certainly be destroyed with two P-800s.
    The impact of "Kinzhal" pierced the reinforced concrete at a huge depth in West Ukroshitsan, so it would certainly pierce most of the decks on the carrier and then the kaboom will follow...
    Trust me, my friend, the biggest "wunderwaffe" is an aircraft carrier. I often write after the message "this is just my opinion", but this time I am convinced that it is so.

    The Americans, on the other hand, still do not have a high-quality anti-ship missile to fight the Nakhimov.

    But yes, surely he too would be destroyed quickly.

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    Post  Arrow Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:12 am

    The era of large ships and aircraft carriers is ending. A much better concept is smaller ships in larger numbers. Especially since the current revolution in AShM has reduced their dimensions, increased their range and speed. You can now place a modern compact AShM on a ship with a displacement of 2,000 tons. And Taki 22350 can carry 32 of them.

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    Post  Mir Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:16 am

    Let's pretend that the Adm Gorshkov pays a visit to Cuba and for good measure ad the future Adm Gromov and a support ship for effect. It will barely make the headlines anywhere else but Florida.

    Let's pretend that the Adm Nakhimov does the same thing on it's own. What a Face

    In the 90's and early 2000's several Russian ships made port visits in Cape Town and nobody got too excited...until Peter rocked up on it's own one fine summers day! Laughing

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:33 am

    Arrow wrote:Admiral Nahimov should be scrapped. Loading a huge amount of resources into this ship is a waste of resources.
    .

    Suspect

    Wut? They have spent the best part of 10 years rebuilding her, and now they are days away from starting her new reactors, and you want to scrap her?

    Just when you've started making sense in your posts, you suddenly revert back to your past idiocy.... Forget to take yer meds or something?

    C'mon bud. You're better than this...

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    Post  Big_Gazza Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:38 am

    Podlodka77 wrote:If the cost of modernizing one such cruiser would amount to 3 or 4 project 22350 frigates, as some write, then the whole job pays off.
    On the other hand, the first 4 frigates of project 22350 have less striking power than "Nakhimov". One "Nakhimov" alone against the first four frigates of project 22350; it has more UKSK, a far more versatile air defense system and a far greater range, one less helicopter, nuclear propulsion, an immeasurably higher sailing speed and radius. The only thing is that it is not known how many Paket-NK systems will be installed on the ship.

    Perhaps it is better to have four smaller ships and not keep all eggs in one basket, but the more versatile air defense on the "Nakhimov" again gives that ship a better chance compared to the first 4 frigates of project 22350. And most importantly, the speed of construction of those frigates has not yet reached the desired level . Therefore, I would rather sacrifice "Marshal Ustinov" and "Varyag" than "Peter the Great". The potential for modernization is far greater on 1144 cruisers.
    The cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" will most likely not be operational until at least 2025, and when it finally becomes operational, it will probably serve for no less than 20 years and maybe until 2050.

    As for the other four frigates, that is, from the 5th to the 8th, project 22350, with 24 missiles (per ship) in UKSK, they would surpass "Nakhimov" and its striking power. And if we are talking about 32 missiles per ship, then even three frigates would surpass "Nakhimov". However, there is no hint that the number of missiles has been increased for air defense, as well as whether close air defense will be strengthened with "Pantsir-M".
    If Russia proves that it is able to deliver one frigate from 2025 and launch another one in the same year, then it is pointless to spend money on older ships. Although, withdrawing "Peter the Great", who has only been in service for 24 years, is a sin and idiocy. As I wrote, I would sacrifice both project 1164 cruisers first, which are non-nuclear, are older, and have far less potential for modernization.

    Let these two bad boys (Pavel and Peter) keep sailing the seas…


    We also need to factor in that the 1144s are nuke powered so have a global reach and effectively unlimited endurance, or limited only by availability of supplies for the crew.  No frigate can match them in this respect, not even close.

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    Post  George1 Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:27 am

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    Post  JohninMK Sun Feb 04, 2024 10:33 pm

    A different view from back in November

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] #2 GEqLKFqXcAApOmg?format=png&name=small

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    Post  mnztr Tue Apr 09, 2024 12:46 am

    i read that some cracks were found in the nuclear plant inspection and test. It kinda surprises me that this was only just done instead of much earlier in the project. Everything is repairable. It will be nice to see this ship powered up again.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Tue Apr 09, 2024 5:57 am

    mnztr wrote:i read that some cracks were found in the nuclear plant inspection and test. It kinda surprises me that this was only just done instead of much earlier in the project. Everything is repairable. It will be nice to see this ship powered up again.

    I wouldn't be concerned, likely its either (a) 5th columnist agitprop fake news, or (b) minor cracks found in unrelated structural steelwork, eg something trivial like handrails. I don't believe for a single millisecond that there are cracks in anything critical like the reactor housing or associated steam pipes and vessels.

    There certainly could have been defects discovered in the early survey phases of the restoration, but not in pre-checks prior to reactor startup.

    Yeah, looking forward to seeing her with scaffolding off and under power. russia

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    Post  mnztr Wed Apr 10, 2024 7:24 am

    Well reality is that they expected to be powered up at the end of '23 subject to some final inspections and fuelliing of the nuclear plant. Here we are almost 4 months in to '24 and there is no sign of life. So its likely they found some issues, and while fixable they were likely not trivial.
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    Post  lancelot Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:07 am

    mnztr wrote:Well reality is that they expected to be powered up at the end of '23 subject to some final inspections and fuelliing of the nuclear plant. Here we are almost 4 months in to '24 and there is no sign of life. So its likely they found some issues, and while fixable they were likely not trivial.
    It is a huge ship with miles and miles of cables. Just recycling that Soviet era copper and replacing it with fiber optics would probably recoup some of the costs of the upgrade back.

    I don't know why people assume delays must be caused by the reactor when every electronic system on the ship is being replaced. It is basically being rebuilt with only the hull remaining.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Apr 10, 2024 8:44 am

    In the process, they have sandblasted all the hull&structures to the bore metal.
    The whole of the interior has been redesigned, with new room arrangements.
    All cabling&piping is brand new.
    It will be a brand new capital ship when finished.

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    Post  Hole Wed Apr 10, 2024 10:44 am

    I hope the Captain gets that fancy gaming chair we saw on the latest Pr. 677 sub.  Very Happy

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    Post  Mir Wed Apr 10, 2024 1:47 pm

    Apparently the Commander's Chair will also include much more advanced features like "Warp Speed" and "Shape Shift".

    "Shape Shift" is a new feature to fool the enemy by physically shifting in and out of form. Cool

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    Post  mnztr Wed Apr 10, 2024 6:57 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Well reality is that they expected to be powered up at the end of '23 subject to some final inspections and fuelliing of the nuclear plant. Here we are almost 4 months in to '24 and there is no sign of life. So its likely they found some issues, and while fixable they were likely not trivial.
    It is a huge ship with miles and miles of cables. Just recycling that Soviet era copper and replacing it with fiber optics would probably recoup some of the costs of the upgrade back.

    I don't know why people assume delays must be caused by the reactor when every electronic system on the ship is being replaced. It is basically being rebuilt with only the hull remaining.

    Because its pretty darn old, its a unique design, and its not something you can just rip out and replace like pretty much everything else on the ship. and afik no other ship in history has used the combined nuclear, oil propulsion that Orlan uses.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Apr 11, 2024 3:33 am

    It was the first operational warship that operated with vertical launch missile systems and because of its design it was actually rather stealthy for its size.

    There is a tale that the British said it could be identified as being a Kirov by the wake it produced, because it produces the wake of a large cruiser, while its radar signature is of a much smaller vessel.

    Don't know how true that is but the British were certainly impressed by the ship.

    I am wondering what main gun turrets they will be fitted with because the 130mm guns they used to have are now super light weight and rather lacking in range and punch these days. They are fine for Frigates, but Cruisers need bigger guns in my biased opinion.

    Some new Coalition 152mm based gun turrets would be nice for testing as they could be fitted to new design Destroyers for the near future.

    Would love to see them working together with the Army on a 203mm calibre long range gun too for Cruisers and for the Army. Something with 200km range plus would be amazing on land and at sea... they clearly know how to make anything guided and accurate...

    Imagine a Russian cruiser with 250km range 203mm guns firing 80 rounds per minute with guided shells... the west talks about drone swarms... with a 30kg HE warhead a 120kg 203mm shell with a ramjet and fuel to reach 250km range targets being launched at 80 rounds per minute would overwhelm targets air defences within about a minute. After the first few shells hit and do damage you can revert to slower but heavier rounds with more HE in an armour penetrating version delivering 50-60kg HE warheads deep inside the ship before exploding and starting internal fires...

    It would put the Americans and HATO countries in the position where they would have to shoot down ever artillery shell a Russia ship is carrying and they could carry thousands of shells each.

    I seem to recall that the Sovremenny class Destroyer carried something like 1,000 shells for its two 130mm gun turrets (fore and aft), and the first model Kirov with the 100mm gun mounts carried 2,000 shells for them.

    There is not much wrong with the design of the Kirov class, though a more powerful nuclear power plant and getting rid of the conventional propulsion systems would be an improvement... probably keeping some GTs and Diesels as APUs...


    Last edited by GarryB on Wed Jun 26, 2024 7:26 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  mnztr Fri Apr 12, 2024 4:33 am

    I thought the design of the powerplant was really quite clever. The ship can sustain 20 knots on nuclear and about 2000KM at full dash (from what i have read).  The beauty of it, is with the oil, you can get to full power much faster then the nukes of that era (not sure about now) and 2000 km at full speed is pretty decent. No doubt its an impressive ship. But I am not fully clear how defensable capital ships are, any AD can be saturated, even the Imperial cruisers with laser pulse cannons Very Happy . So I think the biggest non carrier ship built will be about the size of the Chinese type 055. Maybe with nuclear. And when some carriers are taken out, they will evolve pretty rapidly or become extinct.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:00 am

    Head of USC: the first sailing of the cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" is planned for November

    General Director of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Andrei Puchkov noted that on the ship, in accordance with the technical design, outdated systems and complexes will be replaced with modern models of weapons and military equipment

    KRONSTADT, June 20. /TASS/. The Project 11442M heavy nuclear-powered missile cruiser Admiral Nakhimov, undergoing deep modernization at the Sevmash enterprise in Severodvinsk (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, USC), according to the plan, will be tested at sea in November. General Director of the corporation Andrei Puchkov told TASS about this on the sidelines of the International Maritime Salon (IMMS) Fleet-2024.

    “The procedure and timing of the tests are determined by the general schedule for the repair of the cruiser. The cruiser’s first departure to sea for testing is planned after the completion of the entire complex of mooring tests in November 2024. Currently, the work is being carried out in compliance with the terms of the general schedule,” Puchkov said.

    He noted that on the ship, in accordance with the technical design, outdated systems and complexes will be replaced with modern types of weapons and military equipment, which in their characteristics correspond to the appearance of the fourth generation ship - the flagship of the fleet.

    “After completion of the repairs, the Navy will receive a new, modern ship capable of performing assigned tasks in all areas of the world’s oceans and proudly displaying the St. Andrew’s flag,” the head of the USC emphasized.

    The cruiser has been under repair since 1999. Real work on it has been carried out since 2013. The main result of the modernization is a noticeable increase in the cruiser's striking power. According to open sources, it will carry, in particular, 10 universal ship-based firing systems for 8 Kalibr-NK and/or Oniks cruise missiles, as well as Zircon hypersonic missiles.

    source

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    Post  Mir Tue Jun 25, 2024 7:23 pm

    It's going to be epic to see this ship out in the open sea again.

    KRONSTADT, June 20 - RIA Novosti. Tests of the Admiral Nakhimov nuclear missile cruiser, armed with Zircons, begin in August and are scheduled to be completed next year, Admiral Alexander Moiseev, Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy.

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