Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+26
Arrow
lancelot
marcellogo
AMCXXL
Podlodka77
franco
Mir
TMA1
owais.usmani
Arkanghelsk
Begome
Isos
ALAMO
The-thing-next-door
caveat emptor
Big_Gazza
LMFS
George1
Hole
Krepost
mnztr
hoom
wilhelm
Lennox
limb
PapaDragon
30 posters

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 2508
    Points : 2675
    Join date : 2015-12-31
    Location : Merkelland

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 11 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Feb 24, 2024 8:23 pm

    Lancelot wrote:It all sounds fine and dandy until you realize a company like Zvezda isn't flush with cash to begin with. They have been bankrupt before. They are the only supplier. And the client needs these gears for serially produced ships for a state defense order. This is not the first time Zvezda are making gears for Project 22350 either. So the client knows they can deliver the product, and the time and cost to make it is well established. They should have a proper long term contract for series production instead of trying to penny pinch and order in single units like this. Long lead items, this is claimed to take 19 months to make, also should be ordered well in advance.

    I agree for the need of long term contracts, but if the company is in so dire need of cash it is also possible it has serious management and investment problems, especially with all the products requested by the russian navy (i.e. among the rest, high speed diesels for the 22800 missile corvettes and reduction gears for 22350). The problem is that probably after privatisation in the 90s the production capabilities were never improved, new models were not developed and technical personnel was probably underpaid.

    So the only thing they could really build was the very old soviet engines from the 1950s, and at a snail's pace.
    Then after finally Russian navy started finding the money  to order new ships, probably Zvezda Management oversold their capabilities in order to win the contracts.

    I do not know why there are problems in the 22350 reduction gears production rates, but since they do not want or are not able to improve their capabilities, they should just give back the company to the state or at least to a serious new owner who will need to guarantee important investments to ensure new production lines, new diesel engine design and production rates which satisfy the navy's demands.

    The state should not fix their problems if it remains a privately owned company. Better in that case properly bankrupt them and start over.

    GarryB wrote:Paying money upfront almost never solves any problems, and runs the risk of corruption... especially with privately owned companies that are in the red.

    Nationalise them and then fix them.

    Wish the west would hurry up and steal Russias assets abroad... then they can just sweep through and seize the assets and shares of westerners that are holding Russian companies hostage...

    Yeah, sometimes nationalising industries is not the ideal way, especially if governmental crooks are sent there to "manage" them, but if it is a strategic industry and the managers are incompetent (furthermore if it is a former state industry which was "privatised" in the 90s) then there is no alternative.

    And hopefully national industries nowadays are better managed than in the past.

    If it was a privately created industry from the inventive and effort of its founder, and which encountered difficulties because of external factors, then I would say that the state could (and should) help it via providing long term loans with little or no interest.

    But since Zvezda was a state owned company founded in 1932 in soviet union (and stolen in the 90s) and now probably just owned (at least partially) by either incompetent people or by crooks who are only descendants or friends of the people who stole it 30 years ago, I would say that there are enough reason to expropriate it. The owners can be paid the same amount of money that was used to "buy" it in the 90s and sell it to the state, or end up in prison for compromising a strategic industry in semi-war times.

    To clarify: Stealing a state company is not not private entrepreneurship.

    by the way, here below some data I found in Wikipedia, I do not know if the ownership changed after 2011.

    (Data as of April 18, 2011 and taken from the official website)

    Among the major shareholders of the Company:

    OJSC "Hermes Company" (St. Petersburg) - 27.06%
    CJSC Depository and Clearing Company (nominee holder) - 45.29%
    lancelot
    lancelot


    Posts : 2778
    Points : 2776
    Join date : 2020-10-18

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 11 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3

    Post  lancelot Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:31 am

    Like I said, Zvezda is now owned by Ural Diesel Motor Zavod. Which is owned by Sinara Transport Machines. That is part of Sinara Group. It is still a private company but it changed owner.

    Sinara Transport Machines also makes shunting and electric locomotives.

    They are basically a competitor to Transmashholding. Which owns Kolomna diesel.

    Rodion_Romanovic likes this post

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 39449
    Points : 39947
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 11 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3

    Post  GarryB Sun Feb 25, 2024 1:53 pm

    Yeah, sometimes nationalising industries is not the ideal way, especially if governmental crooks are sent there to "manage" them, but if it is a strategic industry and the managers are incompetent (furthermore if it is a former state industry which was "privatised" in the 90s) then there is no alternative.

    Government and private sector crooks come in two main types... thieves and 5th columnists, but can be all sorts of combinations of both.

    In airlines that could be claiming western parts have international support networks in place so it would be cheaper to buy the expensive western parts... for which they get a nice compensation package from the western parts making company. That person could be a government appointed CEO or a private sector CEO.

    Or that guy who got Russian funding to develop his amazing new diesel engine for a light training aircraft who insisted in setting up business in Germany... you don't think he was bought?

    If it is a strategic industry you promote people up through the factories and you make them managers but part of a Government run organisation like UEC and OAK etc etc.

    And hopefully national industries nowadays are better managed than in the past.

    Hope should have nothing to do with it... many managers taught the western methods of management should be sent to concentration camps and deprogrammed and turned back into humans.

    All human resource departments should be burned to the ground because people are not resources to be used up and discarded.

    Your staff is what lets you provide the services or products to your customers and are more important than your tooling and machinery.

    If it was a privately created industry from the inventive and effort of its founder, and which encountered difficulties because of external factors, then I would say that the state could (and should) help it via providing long term loans with little or no interest.

    Who cares who created the company that currently does the job, if they can't get the job done then there will be a list of other companies wanting the contracts, the problem is when companies expect the contracts because they are in the best position... a bit like a new contract for a fighter plane for Russia... Sukhoi would think it would have that in the bag... now in some companies they will relax because there is no real competition... and that is not what you want because half arsing a job does not deliver good products and good prices in good timescales.

    Equally of course when there is cut throat competition then companies will try to undercut other companies or steal technology or engineers and might end up with a contract they are going to lose a lot of money on. You can't run a business that way.


    But since Zvezda was a state owned company founded in 1932 in soviet union (and stolen in the 90s) and now probably just owned (at least partially) by either incompetent people or by crooks who are only descendants or friends of the people who stole it 30 years ago, I would say that there are enough reason to expropriate it. The owners can be paid the same amount of money that was used to "buy" it in the 90s and sell it to the state, or end up in prison for compromising a strategic industry in semi-war times.

    To clarify: Stealing a state company is not not private entrepreneurship.

    Lots of companies have been returned to state ownership because corruption in the purchase procedure was normal back then, which makes returning it to national ownership pretty straight forward.

    There is no guarantee that the old managers were corrupt or that the new managers wont be corrupt, but a look at the books at how profits were used and how much of their profits ended up being put back into the business to make it more efficient and able to handle larger jobs and wider variety of more complicated jobs is usually the best indicator, and how wages changed over time for the workers actually doing the work that mattered.

    Western companies are so focused on profits for management and investors that they forget who actually does the work.

    Big_Gazza likes this post

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov


    Posts : 3743
    Points : 3723
    Join date : 2016-04-09

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 11 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Tue Feb 27, 2024 12:32 am

    Nationalizing wouldn't work either, that is why when you put the money upfront, in the contract both parties agree to the price and they will not get a cent more. It is a very easy solution of course it depends on people doing their jobs, corruption will be there if you nationalize or not, all at that you're changing private corruption to governmental corruption.
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 10953
    Points : 10933
    Join date : 2018-03-25
    Age : 48
    Location : Scholzistan

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 11 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3

    Post  Hole Mon Jun 17, 2024 7:13 pm

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 11 Scree164
    Fishing out an american sonar buoy.

    xeno, zardof, Eugenio Argentina, owais.usmani and Broski like this post


    Sponsored content


    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 - Page 11 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed Jun 26, 2024 3:31 am