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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 18, 2022 1:10 am

    Isos wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Krepost wrote:And here is another source that contradicts the above:

    Secs of pr.22350M:


    Length - 160 m
    Full displacement - 8000 t
    Full speed - 30 knots

    Armament:
    - 6 x UKSK for 48 Zirkon, Onyx, Kalibr
    - 96 missiles for polyment-redut
    - 2 x helicopters

    Source: https://paluba.media/news/16784
    Considering that the length of udaloy class is 163 m i believe this value much more realistic

    Not realistic. It's only 25m longer than a Gorshkov. How would you pack 4 UKSK and 8 Redut (64 missiles) more on a 25m longer Gorshkov ?


    Its possible, because with the length of the ship, its width will probably increase as well.
    And dont forget that those cells for the 9K96 Redut missile system are smaller in size.
    Hypothetically;
    1. 9K96; This means that the ship would have 4 launch VLS launchers with 8 missiles per VLS launcher in the bow of the ship, while the other 4 VLS launchers would be in the ships stern. But in that list above your comment is 96 missiles not 64.
    2. UKSK; 3 or 4 of the UKSK launchers (VLS for Kalibr, Onyx, Cirkon) with 8 missiles per UKSK in the bow of the ship and the other 2 or 3 UKSK could be placed in the stern of the ship.
    * My opinion; Perhaps the Russians should start installing universal vertical launchers, as the United States and China do in Arleigh Burke class and Type-052D or Type-055. Although, it doesn't matter, because on most destroyers, at least half of the missiles are intended for air defense.

    The Arleigh Burke class destroyers have a length of 154 meters for the first two variants (Flight 1 and Flight 2), while the latest models (those of the Flight 3 variant) have a full length of up to 160 meters. And first 28 destroyers (from DDG-51 Arleigh Burke to DDG-78 Porter) have 91 VLS cells in total and from DDG-79 every ship has 96 VLS cells in total.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:37 am

    JohninMK wrote:...Why is Russia not calling these ships destroyers? Whilst there is of course no standard international definition to go by, earlier Russian ships that size were indeed called destroyers. What is the name for 4000t ships?

    Russia never used word 'destroyer' as ship class

    Ones that everyone calls destroyers are called differently in Russia


    Today the ships are classified as:

    Small missile ships: Self explanatory

    Offshore Patrol Vessels: Also self explanatory

    Corvettes: Small multipurpose vessels

    Frigates: Large multipurpose vessels


    Any ship with different classification is leftover from Soviet era (Like Cruisers for Slava-class)

    Should they ever again build something like Slava-class or larger they will probably send word Destroyer in official use


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    Post  GarryB Tue Jan 18, 2022 9:46 am

    Why is Russia not calling these ships destroyers? Whilst there is of course no standard international definition to go by, earlier Russian ships that size were indeed called destroyers. What is the name for 4000t ships?

    Everything is getting bigger and heavier and multirole and much more capable... these upgraded Frigates will still be used as Frigates though, so it makes sense to call them such.

    Their destroyers will likely be nuclear powered so will probably be significantly larger because with the extra power they can be.

    Not realistic. It's only 25m longer than a Gorshkov. How would you pack 4 UKSK and 8 Redut (64 missiles) more on a 25m longer Gorshkov ?

    After putting things on the Gorshkov they likely have worked out a more efficient way of stacking them in to get a more efficient loadout... their new design software would allow them to build new virtual designs including wiring and piping and fit it all in very efficiently.

    * My opinion; Perhaps the Russians should start installing universal vertical launchers, as the United States and China do in Arleigh Burke class and Type-052D or Type-055. Although, it doesn't matter, because on most destroyers, at least half of the missiles are intended for air defense.

    They seem to be headed in that direction, but it is not very efficient to have one Shtil SAM or a Zircon in the same sized tube space.

    US ships do have universal vertical launchers, but there are many different versions and each one has its own range of missiles it can or cannot carry.... it is not like they have one vertical launch missile system and any missile will fit.
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    Post  Podlodka77 Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:47 am

    I must add that the original Russian name for the 1155 project is Fregat - Frigate, but according to the classification, these ships in Russia are marked as large anti-submarine ships or Большие противолодочные корабли.
    Project 956 Sarych is marked as Эска́дренный миноно́сец or squadron mine carrier.
    Разрушитель is a russian word for the destroyer but its not used for ships in this class in Russia.
    After all, many of today's frigates have reached the former destroyers in terms of displacement.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:00 am

    After all, many of today's frigates have reached the former destroyers in terms of displacement.

    With 8 Zircon missiles or the choice of anti sub or land attack or a variety of potent anti ship missiles and 12 Redut missiles with potential ranges of up to 150km each , these days some Corvettes have the potential to be fully multirole that in some ways matched the Orlan and Slava classes... except endurance and numbers of missiles of course.

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:33 pm

    Krepost wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Krepost wrote:And here is another source that contradicts the above:

    Secs of pr.22350M:

    Length - 160 m
    Full displacement - 8000 t
    Full speed - 30 knots

    Armament:
    - 6 x UKSK for 48 Zirkon, Onyx, Kalibr
    - 96 missiles for polyment-redut
    - 2 x helicopters

    Source: https://paluba.media/news/16784
    Considering that the length of udaloy class is 163 m i believe this value much more realistic

    Why is Russia not calling these ships destroyers? Whilst there is of course no standard international definition to go by, earlier Russian ships that size were indeed called destroyers. What is the name for 4000t ships?

    John,

    "Destroyer" is a English word and is used only by the Anglo-American world.
    The Russians, French, Chinese, Italian and most of the world's navies don't use the word "Destroyer".
    Why do you want to impose the English language on other people?

    No offense to you, but the British Empire has expired long ago and the 20th century American leadership of the world has faded in the 21st.

    Well, in Italian we call the "destroyers" as cacciatorpediniere (literally torpedo boat hunter, even if now they should be better called submarines and aircraft Hunters.

    If I am not mistaken it is very similar in English, as destroyer should be short version of torpedo boat destroyer

    From Wikipedia

    Un cacciatorpediniere (solitamente abbreviato sigla CT)[1] è una nave da guerra veloce e manovrabile, dotata di grande autonomia, progettata per scortare navi di dimensioni maggiori in una flotta o in un gruppo di battaglia e difenderle contro attaccanti più piccoli e a corto raggio d'azione (originariamente le torpediniere, successivamente sottomarini e aerei).

    A cacciatorpediniere (destroyer) (usually abbreviated CT) [1] is a fast and maneuverable warship, with great autonomy, designed to escort larger ships in a fleet or battle group and defend them against smaller and short-range attackers (originally the torpedo boats, later submarines and airplanes).

    A cruiser, (in Italian "incrociatore), in modern military terminology, is instead a large warship capable of engaging multiple targets simultaneously.  Historically it was considered the smallest ship capable of independent actions - unlike the destroyer which usually requires external assistance from support ships - but in the modern sense this difference has disappeared.

    Basically now the difference between frigates, destroyers and cruiser  is much smaller, as even frigates are multipurpose ships capable of indipende action. The main difference now lays in range and endurance (and the fact that a larger ship may carry better sensors, radar, sonar and a larger amount of weapons).


    In modern military terminology, the term "frigate" refers to a warship intended to protect other warships or merchant ships and as a fighter in anti-submarine warfare (ASW, "antisubmarine warfare") for an amphibious expeditionary force, for a supply group and for merchant convoys.

    Many ships defined as frigates are similar, in whole or in part, to other categories of ships, including all the range from destroyers to cruisers or even battleships

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    Post  limb Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:19 pm

    Podlodka77 wrote:The Golovko needs to go on sea trials first and we dont know for how long will that last, because Golovko is the first one with the russian built M90FR boost gas turbines and РО55Р reducer and transmission.
    Its not over yet, it's not time to celebrate yet.
    If all goes well than Admiral Isakov is next and i guess that this ship should be finally launched in this year.
    I would not give any new contract to Severnaya until that shipyard builts at least half of the ships currently under construction.
    And its important to know how fast those M90FR turbines will be built and delivered if they want to built more 22350 frigates in Amur shipyard. Saturn also needs to perfect the construction of reliable gas turbines and its not all Severnaya Werf guilt.  
    The Russians have shown that they can build submarines very quickly, but as far as warships and engines for those ships are concerned, there is still a lot of problems. Russian shipyards did not deliver to RN not a SINGLE warship last year.
    I have no faith that the construction of this class of ships will increase in the next few years. Yes, i think that they could sign a new contract with Amur shipyard for additional frigates, but its a long time from laid down ceremony to delivery date for almost every class of ships built for RN.
    I dont think that Golovko will be commissioned this year and it would be great if that happens next year.
    I think that we can expect improvement in 3 or 4 years.

    Why couldn't klimov or AL-31/AL-41 turbines be converted for ship propulsion? AFAIK the new PD-14 was converted to be a powerplant turbine with minimal engineering difficulty.
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    Post  Lennox Thu Jan 20, 2022 3:30 am

    limb wrote:
    Why couldn't klimov or AL-31/AL-41 turbines be converted for ship propulsion? AFAIK the new PD-14 was converted to be a powerplant turbine with minimal engineering difficulty.

    My guess is that the PD-14 was designed with a digital twin model in mind, making it much easier to be modified, while the Al-31/41 series have not been digitalized yet. Also ship propulsion requires a big shaft which the turbojet design doesnt have while the turbofan design does
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    Post  wilhelm Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:25 pm

    Al-31/41 is a turbofan.

    And turbojets have been used in naval marine propulsion for over 50 years. The Olympus is an example.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Marine_Olympus

    The Soviet Kashin and Kara class were running marine gas turbines over 50 years ago, which should have been turbojet based. In fact, the first Kashin class was launched 60 years ago this year.
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    Post  lancelot Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:43 am

    Marine turbines need to have enhanced reliability compared with military aircraft gas turbines. They also need to use materials resistant to salt water corrosion in a marine environment. Saturn already has naval gas turbine engine designs in production. No need for makeshift solutions like this. The Al-31/41 performance should be similar to that of the NPO Saturn M90FR marine gas turbine for example. There might be merit in making a naval version of the PD-14 and PD-35 engines and if necessary it might happen. This would be for destroyers or cruisers not frigates.
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    Post  hoom Fri Jan 21, 2022 10:20 am

    limb wrote:Why couldn't klimov or AL-31/AL-41 turbines be converted for ship propulsion? AFAIK the new PD-14 was converted to be a powerplant turbine with minimal engineering difficulty.
    Isn't MFR90 based on the PD/S90 (what Il-76es are getting re-engined with) already?
    Not bleeding edge but decent enough.


    Last edited by hoom on Sat Jan 22, 2022 2:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:14 am

    Well their talk of scaling the PD-35 up to a PD-50 would be rather interesting, but considering they were talking about the Slon planned aircraft having four PD-35s which would give it the sort of engine power the AN-225 has I thought PD-50 was just being silly.

    Maybe PD-50 is intended for land based or ship based power generation systems?

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    Post  mnztr Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:12 pm

    hoom wrote:
    limb wrote:Why couldn't klimov or AL-31/AL-41 turbines be converted for ship propulsion? AFAIK the new PD-14 was converted to be a powerplant turbine with minimal engineering difficulty.
    Isn't MFR90 based on the PD/S90 (what Il-76es are getting re-engined with) already?
    Not bleeding edge but decent enough.

    If you look at naval turbines around the world they are all based on pretty older designs. Ships can carry so much fuel its not really worth the 10-20% improvement to update. the WR-21 added an intercooler and recuperator to increase fuel efficiency by a staggering 30% on the type 45 but you can read about the issues here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_WR-21

    Needless to say they are not being used on the type 26.
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    Post  mnztr Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:21 pm

    lancelot wrote:Marine turbines need to have enhanced reliability compared with military aircraft gas turbines. They also need to use materials resistant to salt water corrosion in a marine environment. Saturn already has naval gas turbine engine designs in production. No need for makeshift solutions like this. The Al-31/41 performance should be similar to that of the NPO Saturn M90FR marine gas turbine for example. There might be merit in making a naval version of the PD-14 and PD-35 engines and if necessary it might happen. This would be for destroyers or cruisers not frigates.

    Typically in higher power requirements they just add more gas turbines. So for example the Ivan Rogov will likely have 4 turbines on 2 shafts, or they may go with Turbine Electric and adapt the motors from their nuclear ice breakers. The benefit of this is the ship can cruise with diesel gensets.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:21 am

    Imagine a combined nuclear and gas turbine propulsion set up where the gas turbine is used for extra bursts of speed, but while the ship is not needing enormous amounts of power extra power from the reactor could be used to desalinate sea water and separate they hydrogen from the oxygen and store the hydrogen for the ship to burn in its gas turbine engines... no need to refuel and clean green propulsion... would work better on ships because the oxygen would not need to be stored to burn with the hydrogen in the gas turbines, you could just take oxygen from the air or if you did capture and store the oxygen you could perhaps pump pure oxygen into the gas turbines to make the combustion more energetic perhaps...
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    Post  mnztr Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:22 am

    You can also do a similar version to what they did in the Kirov class. Run the nukes for base load and then burn hydrogen in the super heaters for sprint. Problem is hydrogen is difficult to store and not something you really want on a warship in large qty. I think nuclear/electric like the ice breakers make a lot of sense. you have diesel for back up. You can add turbines for rapid sprint etc.
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    Post  Krepost Wed Jan 26, 2022 7:22 pm

    Very large photo:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJ-aFp4XoAAyecr?format=jpg&name=4096x4096


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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:57 am

    Solutions to hydrogen storage and handling would be useful and worth exploring.

    A fuel cell that extracted the carbon as a solid and released the hydrogen for use would be the most efficient way or transporting and storing it... because all the infrastructure is already in place.
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    Post  Hole Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:35 pm

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #3 Scree111
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    Admiral Kassatonov

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    Post  George1 Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:14 pm

    Artillery firing of the frigate "Admiral Gorshkov"

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    Post  LMFS Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:28 pm

    The source clarified the timing of the transfer to the fleet of the third frigate of project 22350 "Admiral Golovko"

    The fleet has finally decided on the timing of the commissioning of the first full-time surface carrier of hypersonic missiles "Zirkon" - the newest frigate of project 22350 "Admiral Golovko". The ship will become part of the Northern fleet.

    The third ship in the series of Project 22350 frigates and the second serial ship after the lead Admiral Gorshkov and the first serial Admiral Kasatonov, the Admiral Golovko will enter the fleet this year. Reportedly "News" citing a source in the military department, the plan for completing the frigate and testing was approved.

    As specified, the crew of the frigate is completing training and is preparing to pass tests, the frigate is undergoing outfitting work. Tests are planned for autumn and should be completed before the end of the year. After raising the Andreevsky flag, the Admiral Golovko will go to Severomorsk, where it will join the 43rd missile ship division of the Northern Fleet. At least that's what the sources say. For the frigate in Severomorsk, the infrastructure necessary for basing is being prepared.

    "Admiral Golovko" was laid down on February 1, 2012, launched on May 22, 2020. Unlike the head "Admiral Gorshkov" and the first serial "Admiral Kasatonov", which have Ukrainian gas turbine units (GTU), the "Admiral Golovko" has a completely Russian power plant.

    The frigate is named in honor of Arseniy Golovorovich Golovko (1906 - 1962), a sailor - a surface naval commander of the Northern Fleet during the Great Patriotic War.

    https://en.topwar.ru/192147-istochnik-utochnil-sroki-peredachi-v-sostav-flota-tretego-fregata-proekta-22350-admiral-golovko.html

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:56 pm

    Details of the PAKET launcher, can't say I've seen this before.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Mar 17, 2022 12:58 pm

    Details of the loading for UKSK munitions.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Mar 18, 2022 3:21 am

    Details of the PAKET launcher, can't say I've seen this before.

    I remember ages ago someone posted a photo of a new Chinese ship that had been annotated showing where all the weapons were and they indicated the torpedoes would be at the bow below the waterline like they are on many submarines.

    Most torpedoes on modern ships are generally located about half way down the side (half way from the bow to the stern, not vertically half way down) at about deck level.

    With the new modern stealthy ships obviously they will be behind doors like this so they can be used but when not used don't add to the signature of the ship.

    The tiny edge sticking out closest to the camera and the similar edge on the other side and the arms at the bottom holding the hatches suggests to me this is two square doors that fit the shape of the hole which seems to be two separate rectangular door holes... the two arms at the bottom pull the two hatches together to meet inn the middle to close the side of the hull to fill the space forming a stealthy seal.

    Would say the tubes wouldn't even need to retract inwards to allow it to happen.

    Nice find... the closed doors make it rather difficult to find when closed so most people probably don't even realise they are there.

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    Post  Podlodka77 Sat May 28, 2022 11:40 am

    More details about new 3M22 "Zircon" launch.

    TASS; May 28, 09: 27 (Updated 09:34)

    The frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" hit the target with a missile "Zircon" at a distance of about 1 thousand. km

    According to the Russian Defense Ministry, the shooting took place within the framework of tests of new weapons






    MOSCOW, May 28. / TASS /. The frigate "Admiral Gorshkov" fired a hypersonic cruise missile "Zircon" from the Barents Sea on the sea target in the White Sea. This was reported to journalists by the Russian Defense Ministry on Saturday.

    "Today, the main frigate of the project 22350" Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov "from the waters of the Barents Sea fired a hypersonic cruise missile" Zircon "at a naval target position in the White Sea, said in a statement.

    According to the Russian Ministry of Defense, the shooting took place within the framework of tests of new types of weapons. "According to the objective control, the hypersonic cruise missile" Zircon "successfully hit a sea target, located at a distance of about 1,000 km," - added there, noting that the flight met the specified parameters.

    On February 20, 2019, Russian President Vladimir Putin in his address to the Federal Assembly stated that the rocket from the Zircon complex is capable of developing a speed equal to 9 Mach numbers (speeds of sound), has a range of more than 1 thousand. km. On August 24, 2021, at the military-technical forum "Army-2021" a contract was signed for the supply of "Zircons" of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.

    On December 24, 2021, Putin announced a volley of Zircon launches. According to him, the tests were "successful, flawless". The exact tactical and technical characteristics of "Zircon" are secret. Zircon's surface tests are currently being completed. Rocket developer and manufacturer - Reutov NPO of mechanical engineering (part of the corporation "Tactical Missile Weapons").

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14757533

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