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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #31

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:35 am

    I think their reasoning was valid . The East / West alliances had rough parity and this kept the peace in Europe .


    No it didn't.... by including all the tiny states the chances of some conflict starting and the allies on each side being drawn into a war that they had no interest in other than they signed a piece of paper saying they would help if they got into a scrap is the dumbest defence concept anyone could think of... it doesn't make large scale wars more likely... it makes the inevitable...

    The problem now is that these coalitions in Europe now favour the West against the East . Then balance of forces is broken , and this leads to instability and war .

    The balance is nukes on both sides... the conventional forces are irrelevant.

    The smart thing to do is to form smart alliances as you suggest . And these should be allowed and do form . And they should be dissolved , once conflicts subside . Otherwise they constitute a source of instability .

    And such alliance is a threat to the rest, which requires countering... which is the opposite of what everyone wants.

    In Europe , in case of tensions , a coalition may form that involves say France and Britain to confront or deter Russia alone or an alliance of Russia and say Germany . This may be a spontaneous temporary arrangement that stops full scale war . This is a natural evolution of local conditions . Will keep the peace . A smart arrangement .

    Except it wont prevent any conflict an will force each side to gather more and more allies till war becomes necessary and inevitable...

    And that is assuming you can actually trust those you signed agreements with.

    Most of Europe signed some sort of agreement with Germany in the years leading up to WWII... not only did it not stop the war, it actually gave Germany more confidence and made it more likely and more widespread in its scope.

    One way to allow for smart alliances , is to allow nations an adequate national defence force . And the other is to avoid formation of super-alliances , that are unnecessary .

    the only way to avoid alliances would be for everyone to have nukes so you don't need alliances...

    As I said before, Russia needs to live up to NATzO's propaganda caricature and then NATzO will be shitting its pants.

    Russia wont improve its situation by having the US scared of it... the best way to improve Russias future is to disengage with the west and look to the rest of the world for trade and growth and development.

    Putin could use his nuclear threat for psychological purposes much more effectively, but he does not.

    Putin is smart enough to know when Russia launches nukes it is over for everyone.

    The Thunderbird and Poseidon were good moves to emphasise that these are doomsday weapons, but being reckless with nukes makes you look unstable and Russia needs to convince the rest of the world to trade with Russia.

    We've wasted so much time.

    The only thing that has changed here where I live is a few houses built in the 1950s and 1960s have been knocked down and replaced with brand new flats.... usually three or four with the land subdivided.

    Otherwise not much has changed, no new factories, most factory work has gone... the Cadbury chocolate factory has closed, Fisher & Paekel has shifted production to Mexico, the woolen mills are gone, we have a fashion industry now instead of a fabrics industry, we don't assemble cars here any more, and our aluminium smelter is shutting down as is our oil refinery at Marsden point.

    Look at with what forces Russia entered S. Ossetia with in 2008. T-62s FFS.

    A backwater region has units equipped with old equipment... that is just normal. And it seemed to work just fine anyway.

    What was preventing Russia from starting modernization of its military sooner, to start giving big orders to its military-industrial complex? Just corruption and complacency?

    So the upgrade of the Russian military is transformational and you complain they could have started a few years before... clearly you are a glass half full guy.

    Truth is, without the rise of China and Iran's resistance, we'd have been done for long ago. Our leaders spent this whole time sitting on their laurels.

    The west is a bully, if it wasn't China and Iran it would be other countries getting in their way.

    If it's not war, it's the banks. If it's not the banks, it's corruption. If it's not corruption, it's the bad infrastructure. It's always something but our elites spend 10 years fixing each problem. And not all in parallel, as you would expect to be possible - but exactly sequentially, one after the other

    Well they don't have the option to just print more money... so which solution is better... low taxes but balancing budgets and putting money into rainy day reserves, or printing money and spending big on that huge military colossus you are going to need when other countries stop accepting your money.

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:08 am

    @ GarryB

    "…by including all the tiny states the chances of some conflict starting and the allies on each side being drawn into a war …"  I think the important part of alliances is their combined force ,  and their numbers . The greater the force and number  , the less stable . Quantity of disparity more likely with greater numbers .


    ".....The balance is nukes on both sides... the conventional forces are irrelevant....... " Agree . Therefore for nuclear armed state , it should not matter if some nation or group of non-nuclear nations , form some sort of alliances . It only matters , if it changes the nuclear balance .


    ".....Except it wont prevent any conflict an will force each side to gather more and more allies till war becomes necessary and inevitable..."  Human relations have deteriorated . The fact that we need nuclear weapons to avert war , means that we can not regulate conventional war or even outlaw it . Perhaps we should even not try !


    "....Russia wont improve its situation by having the US scared of it... " Fear applied judiciously , has benefits . Extreme fear may lead to paralysis in decision making . Low to moderate fear , allows an adaptive response .
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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:36 pm

    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:40 pm

    Lol.

    Russia backs China on Taiwan so China won't go with that.

    Especially since Russians has demanded for diplomatic solution through Minsk agreements which Russia isn't part of.

    So the US is being retarded as usual. I mean, they do this for optics to the retarded people.
    flamming_python
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:53 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Lol.

    Russia backs China on Taiwan so China won't go with that.

    Especially since Russians has demanded for diplomatic solution through Minsk agreements which Russia isn't part of.

    So the US is being retarded as usual.  I mean, they do this for optics to the retarded people.

    Unless what the US actually means is - back us on Russia and we'll give you Taiwan
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:54 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Lol.

    Russia backs China on Taiwan so China won't go with that.

    Especially since Russians has demanded for diplomatic solution through Minsk agreements which Russia isn't part of.

    So the US is being retarded as usual.  I mean, they do this for optics to the retarded people.

    Unless what the US actually means is - back us on Russia and we'll give you Taiwan

    The US won't do that and China knows since US is stationed in Taiwan and giving up Taiwan will make everyone angry (everyone = American lacky's).

    And since Russia is chinas energy source, China is competitive still due to cheap energy. If they piss off Russia then what? China will find things get also expensive for them and a backer of the one belt road policy will become expensive and difficult. But let's also acknowledge China is rather pro Russia right now thanks to its leadership and cultural connections.
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    Post  flamming_python Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:47 pm

    Mr. M. K. Bhadrakumar is positively glowing with speculation over on twitter Smile








    I wouldn't be so hasty personally though. So far it seems to only be Russia saying, that it has sent an invitation. Not yet that Zelensky confirmed it.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Jan 28, 2022 2:57 pm

    Thanks for those, interesting.

    Zelensky more than once last year wanted a meeting with Putin. Putin declined (the guys at the Duran more or less said that it's worthless to talk to the puppet and instead talk to the puppeteer). I think this is Lavrov offering an olive branch to Ukraine. There has been a rather strange events of back and forth between US and Ukraine.

    But ultimately it isn't Zelensky. He will be ousted and replaced by another poodle of the same. Ukraine will fall one way or another and Russia will pick up the pieces that's worth it. China and Russia are more or less in an alliance even if unofficial. This was evident with both nations patrolling the seas near Japan. As well, Russia is building their air defense structure too. China wants Taiwan and Russia just wants a neutral and stable border. Both agree with each other and US is scared because they got nothing.

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:36 pm

    A totally on the nail article on Ukraine. Long but you will be pleased you read it and by an American too.

    https://mate.substack.com/p/the-ukraine-crisis-sponsored-by-us

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:39 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    But ultimately  it isn't Zelensky. He will be ousted and replaced by another poodle of the same.  

    Even Poroshenko perhaps, he was always on message before.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:43 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:

    Are they forgeting how chinese hate them lol1 ?

    They are so stupid hahaha. They are almost at war with them yet they ask them a favor to increase NATO size.

    Very funny post.

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Jan 28, 2022 3:53 pm



    at around 08:40 that Alexander explains why US went to China to get them to make some kind of comment.

    And apparently Wang Yi (im sorry if I am getting his name wrong), chewed out Blinkin stating they do support the Russians.

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    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:09 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Thanks for those, interesting.

    Zelensky more than once last year wanted a meeting with Putin. Putin declined (the guys at the Duran more or less said that it's worthless to talk to the puppet and instead talk to the puppeteer).  I think this is Lavrov offering an olive branch to Ukraine. There has been a rather strange events of back and forth between US and Ukraine.

    But ultimately  it isn't Zelensky. He will be ousted and replaced by another poodle of the same.  Ukraine will fall one way or another and Russia will pick up the pieces that's worth it.  China and Russia are more or less in an alliance even if unofficial. This was evident with both nations patrolling the seas near Japan. As well, Russia is building their air defense structure too.  China wants Taiwan and Russia just wants a neutral and stable border.  Both agree with each other and US is scared because they got nothing.

    Maybe he understands now that he may meet the same end of milosevich if the war and provocation actually start.

    If he is replaced because he tried to descalate the situation he could still live free and wealthy instead of being tried for war crimes (and maybe he could become a neighbor of the other idiot yanukovich in Rostov)

    Razz
    zorobabel
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    Post  zorobabel Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:39 pm

    The Zelensky-Biden disagreement is humorous. Almost totally unreported in the West, but it is obvious that both have diverging views.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:10 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:

    The clowns in Washington still can't believe that Russia and China are in a de facto alliance. They still think that
    Russia can be isolated and suppressed. This is the level of delusion of western "leaders". Wishful thinking and
    denial.

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    Scorpius
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    Post  Scorpius Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:17 pm

    Hole wrote:What was the name of the russian PM 100+ years ago who said that Russia needs 20 years of peace and nobody will recognize it anymore?

    The Situation in the Ukraine. #31 - Page 29 Scale_1200

    Pyotr Arkadyevich Stolypin.
    A rather ambiguous figure. Let me remind you that he was also responsible for many negative things. The concepts of "Stolypin wagon" (more like a cattle wagon, only people were transported in it during the forced resettlement of peasants to Siberia) and "Stolypin tie" (the so-called gallows) became common. This person was also responsible for the creation of the "kulaks" class.

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    VARGR198
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    Post  VARGR198 Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:45 pm

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:07 pm

    All the help which are in fact loans from the west for weapons won't help. They will pay it during the next 20 years.

    Russia clearly doesn't want to invade and is still looking for a pacific solution. Problem is US/UK and other blatics/poland are pushing for war. Western EU is taking its distances with them because they clearly see it's US that want to create a conflict btw them and Russia so that they replace Russia as the main gas/oil supplier. Ukrainian are either Nazi allied and want a war or they are not alligned and just with no opinion.

    At the end Russia will have to invade them. It's too late to backdown for Putin since he draw its red lines, US responded negatively to its demands and Ukrainians arrn't moving. But there won't be heavy fighting. Ukrainians will quickly give up.

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:15 pm

    In Crimea roughly 80% of the "ukrainian" soldiers laid down their weapons and switched sides. Would happen in the east, too. Except the Nazi thug units, of course.

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    Post  franco Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:17 pm

    APU in the confrontation with the LDNR will move from counting "beans" to counting corpses

    Ukraine has an almost threefold superiority in manpower, but completely loses in "armor"

    Free Press continues to publish translations of authors from alternative Western media. This is far from the propaganda that is printed in CNN, New York Times, Washington Post, Los-Angeles Times and other "authoritative" media resources. If you are interested in learning more about these authors, you can look here .

    There is considerable misunderstanding about the current tensions around eastern Ukraine. So in this matter we have everything and the opposite of it all. And all this is presented with great seriousness as indisputable facts. Here I will not consider all these facts, but I will dwell on a few misconceptions.

    But first, one clarification. What follows is a highly simplified model, and the reality of tactics, operational art, and strategy involves much greater complexity. Please keep this in mind when reading the following.

    FULL ARTICLE: https://svpressa-ru.translate.goog/war21/article/323365/?utm_source=warfiles.ru&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US

    Author: Andrey Raevsky - published under the pseudonym The Saker - a well-known blogger in the West. Born in Zurich. Father is Dutch, mother is Russian. He served as an analyst in the Swiss armed forces and in the research structures of the United Nations. Specializes in the study of post-Soviet states.

    NOTE: good read

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:37 pm

    Yanquis and other western sheeple have no memory capacity.   During the Iraq invasions, the talk in the US media by generals and
    analysts was that 500,000 troops were needed to pacify the country.   The population of Iraq was 17.4 million in 1990.   This is around
    half of what the Banderastan population is today.    So Russia is supposed invade and occupy a substantially hostile country with
    100,000 troops.   clown

    What we hear in the NATzO fake stream media is Orwellian obfuscation.   The "invasion" would be any Russian assistance to the LDNR
    to stop Kiev's ethnic cleansing operation.   The word "invasion" is being used for "protection".    Never take anything spewed by NATzO
    at face value.   It is systematically twisted and designed to con everyone, including NATzO sheeple.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:23 pm

    It took a lot less than 500000 troops to actually invade Iraq and topple the government.
    The US had roughly the same amount of troops they claim Russia has right now in Ukraine.
    And Ukraine has a way worse material disadvantage than even the Iraqi army had.
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    Post  kvs Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:31 pm

    lancelot wrote:It took a lot less than 500000 troops to actually invade Iraq and topple the government.
    The US had roughly the same amount of troops they claim Russia has right now in Ukraine.
    And Ukraine has a way worse material disadvantage than even the Iraqi army had.

    Nope. Kiev regime Ukraine can put up a guerrilla resistance that would sap a small occupation force.
    Unlike Iraq, there is ample land to hide in such a war. Iraq is a desert where the yanquis could engage
    in a turkey shoot with their Apaches. The yanquis thought they could use them against Serbia in 1999
    and stopped the operation.

    Western Ukraine cannot be occupied by 100,000 soldiers. Poland would be supplying them both men
    and materiel. We already had a guerrilla war in western Ukraine running from 1945 until around Stalin's
    death in 1953. The UK hosted training camps for Ukrs who were participating in this war.

    Iraq was divided between Shiites and Sunni, which the US used to overthrow Saddam. The part of Ukraine
    that does not have a hate hard on for Russia is not going to fight western Ukrainians.

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    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:00 pm

    That is assuming Russia would want to invade the whole thing in the first place. They could just destroy any armed resistance and government infrastructures. In that case there would be no issue with insurgents.

    The Soviets had enough experience fighting Ukrainian fascist guerrillas post WW2.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:05 pm

    lancelot wrote:It took a lot less than 500000 troops to actually invade Iraq and topple the government.
    The US had roughly the same amount of troops they claim Russia has right now in Ukraine.
    And Ukraine has a way worse material disadvantage than even the Iraqi army had.

    You didn't get the point.
    And kvs has it.
    The first Desert Storm back in 1991, was performed by a 0.5 mln allied army, supported by another 0.5 mln as a reserve.
    The build-up was lasting almost a year.
    Ant the goal was to strike an operette army of Saddam, compromised by any means, assets&ways.
    The allies know the precise location of any single C&C center, communication hubs, and the technical construction of it.
    Because it was a fuckin' Siemens and Alcatel who made those and presented all o that just on a silver plate.
    Russikies, besides of having no will&goal, have no strength to occupy the Ukraine.
    Add to that the economical misery of it, and you will get a shape.

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