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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #31

    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:48 pm

    @ Garry B

    ".......Just before WWI it was believed a world war would not be possible because two major factions had developed in Europe each serving as the others deterrent... there could not be war in Europe because the two enormous colossal factions would make a conflict horrendously costly and brutal for both sides with the result being a terrible stalemate that could last years.Of course it was bollocks.You don't prevent war by building up coalitions of the stupid that arm themselves up with trillions of dollars in weapons.... eventually they end up using them........"


    I think their reasoning was valid . The East / West alliances had rough parity and this kept the peace in Europe . The problem now is that these coalitions in Europe now favour the West against the East . Then balance of forces is broken , and this leads to instability and war . The smart thing to do is to form smart alliances as you suggest . And these should be allowed and do form . And they should be dissolved , once conflicts subside . Otherwise they constitute a source of instability .


    In Europe , in case of tensions , a coalition may form that involves say France and Britain to confront or deter Russia alone or an alliance of Russia and say Germany . This may be a spontaneous temporary arrangement  that stops full scale war . This is a natural evolution of local conditions . Will keep the peace . A smart arrangement .

    However super-alliances involving several states , such as the pan-Turkic or pan-Arabic or pan -European , even if they form and hold together , result in expansionist and escalating and devastating wars . One way to allow for smart alliances , is to allow nations an adequate national defence force . And the other is to avoid formation of super-alliances , that are unnecessary .
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    Post  VARGR198 Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:07 pm


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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Jan 27, 2022 3:12 pm

    Imagine the howling in the NATzO fake stream media if Wagner was dispatched to the Donbass. It would be called a Russian invasion.

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:15 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:If that is the case, then UN would side with Russia and UK would lose entirely, even if it is Ukraine that is hit and destroyed.

    Nobody gives a shit about UN

    Brits want war because they don't plan on fighting it, that's what serfs are for


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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:20 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Brits want war because they don't plan on fighting it, that's what serfs are for

    We are just the middleman between the boss and the serfs.

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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:25 pm

    Looks like the chance of a war, apart from a US false flag, just about disappeared yesterday. Hopefully the ceasefire will hold but it now seems unlikely that any local action might expand into a war. Good news.

    Officials from Russia and Ukraine met in Paris on Wednesday and held what Moscow described as "tough" talks. Despite whatever difficulties there were, the two sides agreed that the ceasefire in Ukraine’s eastern Donbas region must be upheld.

    German and French officials were also present for the meeting, which lasted eight hours. The four countries started holding talks together after the Donbas war started in 2014 in a forum known as the Normandy format.


    https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russia-ukraine-agree-uphold-donbas-ceasefire-normandy-format-talks

    BUT BUT BUT

    Mike Mihajlovic
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    20h

    Not all Ukrainian forces on the front line and in vicinity are under control of the government. That is real danger because if they provoke LNR/DNR defense on a large scale, the hell will break loose. NATO couldn't care less about casualties unless some of them are "flatten".

    #Ukraine amassing military on border of East Ukraine - but #France and #Germany forced Kyiv to stand by and talk - only a stupid move by neocons could ignite an escalation - which would bring down Europe's economy.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:55 pm

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.france24.com/en/europe/20220126-france-hosts-russian-and-ukrainian-negotiators-in-bid-to-defuse-crisis

    Negotiating parties in Paris talks commit to upholding ceasefire in eastern Ukraine

    Someone wants their pipeline back

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:00 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:If that is the case, then UN would side with Russia and UK would lose entirely, even if it is Ukraine that is hit and destroyed.

    Nobody gives a shit about UN

    Brits want war because they don't plan on fighting it, that's what serfs are for



    That's why the Prussians (and by extension Otto Von Bismarck) referred to the British as 'Perfidious Albion'...Shitain (or ShitStain) is always willing to fight to the last *insert every other group but themselves*.

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:11 pm

    VARGR198 wrote:

    ***WARNING GRAPHIC*** Unhide at your own discretion!!!

    Arkanghelsk
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:13 pm

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rferl.org/amp/nord-stream-germany-russia-/31673493.html

    Nord Stream 2 Opens German Subsidiary To Get Regulatory Approval

    I think Power of Siberia 2 better than Nord Stream 2, but guess they're moving forward

    PS feel free to move this, I just wanted to post it seeing as how EU said they would axe it over Ukraine
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:44 pm

    Arkanghelsk wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rferl.org/amp/nord-stream-germany-russia-/31673493.html

    Nord Stream 2 Opens German Subsidiary To Get Regulatory Approval

    I think Power of Siberia 2 better than Nord Stream 2, but guess they're moving forward

    PS feel free to move this, I just wanted to post it seeing as how EU said they would axe it over Ukraine

    The Germ-Mens from Doucheland err...Deutschland should pay severe penalties and fines for wasting Gazprom's time and resources!

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Thu Jan 27, 2022 5:45 pm

    Well, it was obvious no one cared about Ukraine.  I know only retards on Reddit actually think so.

    Anyway, Power of Siberia 2 will get its gas anyway from same fields.  Russia wins in the end.

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Arkanghelsk wrote:https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rferl.org/amp/nord-stream-germany-russia-/31673493.html

    Nord Stream 2 Opens German Subsidiary To Get Regulatory Approval

    I think Power of Siberia 2 better than Nord Stream 2, but guess they're moving forward

    PS feel free to move this, I just wanted to post it seeing as how EU said they would axe it over Ukraine

    The Germ-Mens from Doucheland err...Deutschland should pay severe penalties and fines for wasting Gazprom's time and resources!

    I actually agree. To really stick it to them and make sure they dont act stupid again, is to make them pay fees and fines for this delay.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:03 pm

    The perception of Russia as weak and predictable by NATzO deciders is a serious problem. Satanovsky, a rather insightful pundit from
    Russia, has contrasted Washington's behaviour with respect to China and Iran. It acts like it is more afraid of them than it is of Russia.
    This is because ebil tyrant Putler behaves with decorum and we all know that nice guys finish last. But it is not just Putin, it is the
    Russian government in general.

    As I said before, Russia needs to live up to NATzO's propaganda caricature and then NATzO will be shitting its pants.

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    Post  calripson Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:37 pm

    kvs wrote:The perception of Russia as weak and predictable by NATzO deciders is a serious problem.   Satanovsky, a rather insightful pundit from
    Russia, has contrasted Washington's behaviour with respect to China and Iran.   It acts like it is more afraid of them than it is of Russia.
    This is because ebil tyrant Putler behaves with decorum and we all know that nice guys finish last.   But it is not just Putin, it is the
    Russian government in general.  

    As I said before, Russia needs to live up to NATzO's propaganda caricature and then NATzO will be shitting its pants.


    The US is more afraid of North Korea with 1950s era nuclear weapons than Russia. They would certainly be more afraid of Iran with deliverable nukes. The nuke equation is capability x willingness to use them. A nuclear weapon with no threat of use is like a guy holding an unloaded gun. Who cares? Putin could use his nuclear threat for psychological purposes much more effectively, but he does not.

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    Post  George1 Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:45 pm

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    Post  Arrow Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:56 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Russia, has contrasted Washington's behaviour with respect to China and Iran.   It acts like it is more afraid of them than it is of Russia.
    This is because ebil tyrant Putler behaves with decorum and we all know that nice guys finish last.   But it is not just Putin, it is the
    Russian government in general.  

    Yes, it's true that the US respects China or even Iran more.  Iran showed in January 2021 what it can do.  Putin is recognized in the US as a leader seeking a compromise in order to reach an agreement with the West. A This Russia is still a greater military power than China. Perhaps that is why the US is still trying to stop Russia's development.


    Last edited by Arrow on Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  kvs Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:19 pm



    The US "proof" of Russian "invasion forces" on Ukraine's border is pathetic fraud.

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    Post  kvs Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:20 pm

    Arrow wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Russia, has contrasted Washington's behaviour with respect to China and Iran.   It acts like it is more afraid of them than it is of Russia.
    This is because ebil tyrant Putler behaves with decorum and we all know that nice guys finish last.   But it is not just Putin, it is the
    Russian government in general.  

    Yes, it's true that the US respects China or even Iran more.  Iran showed in January 2021 what it can do.  Putin is recognized in the US as a leader seeking a compromise by force in order to reach an agreement with the West. A This Russia is still a greater military power than China?

    Yes. Russia has way more nuclear missiles and much more advanced than China. I always hear talk about China being ahead of Russia in military
    tech. This is fanboi masturbation. All the gloating about some ASAT test a decade ago is absurd.

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    Post  Hole Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:11 pm

    What was the name of the russian PM 100+ years ago who said that Russia needs 20 years of peace and nobody will recognize it anymore?

    Well, it´s roughly 15 years since the western backed and paid terrorists have been beaten in the Caucasus. Since then no open warfare against Russia (on current russian soil). And the changes are already huge. No comparison to the country 15 years ago. Then look at all those economic projects that are being planed or realized (railroads, new oil and gas fields, possibly new cities in Siberia).

    Then the military. A massive ammount of new weapon systems will be fielded in the next five years or are already procured in growing numbers. Armored vehicles. UGV´s. Guns. MLRS. Air defence systems. Jets, helis and drones. You name it.

    This conflict will be the last opportunity for the western elites to claim to their pupblic that they are on pair or even superior to Russia. That´s the main reason for the rhetoric, the claims of aggression and invasions. Their time has come and they know it. They just can´t admit it because the house of cards would collapse.

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:37 pm

    Hole wrote:What was the name of the russian PM 100+ years ago who said that Russia needs 20 years of peace and nobody will recognize it anymore?

    Stolypin

    And I always remember his quote. We've had 20 years of peace now. Yeah, things have changed. But they've changed in every country

    Well, it´s roughly 15 years since the western backed and paid terrorists have been beaten in the Caucasus. Since then no open warfare against Russia (on current russian soil). And the changes are already huge. No comparison to the country 15 years ago. Then look at all those economic projects that are being planed or realized (railroads, new oil and gas fields, possibly new cities in Siberia).

    Again what country is the same as it was 15 years ago? We haven't really narrowed the gap with Europe. There's been no amazing post-industrialization, or some great economic breakthrough. Some social progress. A pretty stale political field dominated by 1-party with political technologies and claptrap but few genuinely new concepts.
    We made far more rapid progress in all of these things, during the 30s, 50s, 60s, 70s. Just how it is.

    I like the plans. But they should have been drawn up 10 years ago at least. And actually implemented. Because we've had a lot of such plans and ideas over the past 20 years. And they all pretty much fell to the wayside, no-one wanted to invest
    We've had the same national projects, healthcare, agriculture, education, etc... since the 2000s. Russia was too corrupt and ineffectively governed to make a success out of them back then.

    We've had 20 years, over 20 years in fact, to revive our agriculture, industrial base, shipbuilding, higher education institutes, modernize railways, roads, ports. To start thinking about national economic planning, import-substitution, and so on.
    And most of these things in earnest, have only started with the advent of Western sanctions in 2014. Before that we were pretty much carrying on with the neo-liberal economic model.

    Even the Eurasian economic union with other post-Soviet countries, was not implemented in 1991, or 2000, but 2010. FFS. There were small steps in the 90s and 2000s but the pace was glacial.
    Were our leaders worried about Russia's stability, or hoping for Russia to be accepted into the EU this whole time, or post-Soviet revolutions?

    We've wasted so much time.

    Then the military. A massive ammount of new weapon systems will be fielded in the next five years or are already procured in growing numbers. Armored vehicles. UGV´s. Guns. MLRS. Air defence systems. Jets, helis and drones. You name it.

    Out of all the government services, the military was the first one to start reforms. But even this process only started in 2009-2010. What was the holdup? Look at with what forces Russia entered S. Ossetia with in 2008. T-62s FFS.
    Why?
    What was preventing Russia from starting modernization of its military sooner, to start giving big orders to its military-industrial complex? Just corruption and complacency?

    This conflict will be the last opportunity for the western elites to claim to their pupblic that they are on pair or even superior to Russia. That´s the main reason for the rhetoric, the claims of aggression and invasions. Their time has come and they know it. They just can´t admit it because the house of cards would collapse.

    Truth is, without the rise of China and Iran's resistance, we'd have been done for long ago. Our leaders spent this whole time sitting on their laurels.

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:29 pm

    flamming_python wrote:And I always remember his quote. We've had 20 years of peace now. Yeah, things have changed. But they've changed in every country...

    They did but not every country was garbage dump 20 years ago like Russia was

    So statement is fully accurate as history has proven

    Also during 30s, 50s, 60s Russia didn't even exist, all there was was USSR which was a dystopian shithole on express way to certain ruin which it reached in '89

    Today's Russia is unattainable utopia for anyone living in 30s or 60s



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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:52 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:And I always remember his quote. We've had 20 years of peace now. Yeah, things have changed. But they've changed in every country...

    They did but not every country was garbage dump 20 years ago like Russia was

    Whose fault was that. The same political and elite class that put Putin in his seat in the first place, and that he still mostly has kept around.

    Also during 30s, 50s, 60s Russia didn't even exist, all there was was USSR which was a dystopian shithole on express way to certain ruin which it reached in '89

    It certainly did exist, it was part of the USSR. There was rapid improvement. Industry, education, social progress, healthcare, mass housing. You can compare one decade to the other and see the progress. Until the 80s or so anyway.

    Now? Well okay. Compare 2020 to 2000.
    Most of the same industries, some new ones, some improvements.
    Education, sure some new schools here and there, kindergardens, a new university system. Far more people getting useful degrees as opposed to the trio of Law/Economics/Management that dominated the 2000s. Most of the schools you see are the ones from the 70s and 80s though. Non-Russian language education has been demoted. The actual quality of education seems to be worse, people are dumber than the Soviet generation.
    Social progress? Yeah there's a lot of progress here. Less drugs, less alchohol, less fights, less crime, less nationalist/racist dickheads, less drunk driving, less wife beating. But that's the effect of a low base to begin with - the depravity of the 80s-90s.
    Mass housing - dunno, like 75% of people still live in the Soviet era ones if comparing around the country. There's a lot of housing construction but that doesn't mean everyone has the means to buy. A lot of people rent. The renovation program at replacing the Khruschevka's with new housing free of charge is slow to get off the ground even in Moscow, and that's the only place where its being implemented so far.

    Today's Russia is unattainable utopia for anyone living in 30s or 60s

    Well dur. I don't think a Frenchman or Chinaman would want to go back to the 30s or 60s in their country either.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:00 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    Truth is, without the rise of China and Iran's resistance, we'd have been done for long ago. Our leaders spent this whole time sitting on their laurels.

    I think you underplay the malignant effect of the operatives of western banks etc that were in the system, a 5th column so to speak, after Yeltsin got out.

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:02 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:
    Truth is, without the rise of China and Iran's resistance, we'd have been done for long ago. Our leaders spent this whole time sitting on their laurels.

    I think you underplay the malignant effect of the operatives of western banks etc that were in the system, a 5th column so to speak, after Yeltsin got out.

    Well that's kind of the point

    If it's not war, it's the banks. If it's not the banks, it's corruption. If it's not corruption, it's the bad infrastructure. It's always something but our elites spend 10 years fixing each problem. And not all in parallel, as you would expect to be possible - but exactly sequentially, one after the other clown
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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:27 pm

    Idk how people can say Russia did not grow, tales of pensioners from USSR should not be taken as faith of the utopia in 1960s

    USSR didnt have food , and couldnt build a bridge to Crimea

    Comparatively Russia has grown from 2000 to 2008 with shocking growth

    In 2008 the entire global economy collapsed, so it wasnt unique to Russia.

    Then you have 2008 - 2014 the entire global economy was sluggish

    Then you had Ukraine and forced reform due to Obama's liberating sanctions

    2016 was a turning point, Trump not only destroyed his own economy but terminally slowed China.

    US and China are partners let noone forget it. They are in a nasty divorce and both are suffering from it, US has nowhere to source goods from and is having shortages, and China has so much excess shit they had to shut down most of their factories and plants.

    As for respect, Irans foremost general was sliced into sashimi slices by a US ninja bomb. I am not sure this can be recognized as respect in such context.

    As for China, it's worse, they recognize Taiwan as part of China and yet they still have troops there. It's a crimea situation except there Americans got Crimea.

    At least Ukraine is well known not to be Russia.

    The Americans have vast respect for Russia, they're mental breakdowns reflect this. They are not slicing Russians into sushi , and they know the score in Ukraine, it is vastly different from Taiwan.

    If they are not screaming of you 24/7 on CNN , then you should worry, they dont even consider you a threat

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