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    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy)

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:03 am

    Scorpius wrote:
    This video confirms the UK ship had both air search radars on which confirms the weapons exercise breach of Innocent Passage, probably means breach of the no intelligence/spying clause also.

    When Russian ships pass through UK territorial waters during English Channel transits they can be seen to scrupulously adhere to the Innocent Passage provisions:
    Russia gives the required official warning (I think its 2 weeks?) and their ships can always be seen to be transiting with radar off. (other than surface navigation radar which really better be on in such busy waters).


    Regarding the shipping lane I've been doing some research:
    There is indeed a shipping lane there, apparently IMO adopted
    This is the best pic I could find showing it (pink areas are 'traffic islands' the ships have to stay out of to ensure separation)
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 3 AC2232

    This heatmap from shiptraffic.net shows there is a decent amount of traffic which uses the Odessa <-> Poti route and therefore that legitimately innocent passage is not blocked by Russia.
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 3 Black%20Sea%20Big

    I've overlaid the chart image in Google Earth & the route does pass within Russian territorial waters off cape Fiolent.
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 3 QRXumXh

    The radar image in Scorpius video I believe shows the RN ship in green with yellow & white being the trailing coast guard ships -> nearly bang on my range line above
    Radar pic
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 3 LVoNAhk
    Overlaid
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 3 LszYp0o
    If it is the green ship & it was going in a straight line it would appear to be following the shipping lane correctly.

    There is an AIS track that appears to show the RN ship zig-zagging considerably & appearing to enter from well off to the West which would be hazardous maneuvring in the shipping lane (Innocent Passage breach)
    That track could be the coast guard ships though.

    Even if it was strictly following the shipping channel its not innocent passage.


    Edit: The AIS track from https://twitter.com/KyleJGlen/status/1407664107394940934
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 3 E4kG_vTWUAYQ0vK?format=png
    This actually shows it at nearly the exact location shown in the Radar image
    Approach is on the shipping lane but then these zig-zags are not ok when passing through a territorial waters traffic separation scheme on 'Innocent Passage'.
    Exit angle doesn't appear to be on the angle to Poti unless there is a missing data-point at the dogleg which would actually put it bang on the shipping lane again.
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 3 G33nBgh

    There is also a convenient satellite pic of apparently same location/time
    https://twitter.com/Gerjon_/status/1407764847920660490
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 3 E4liPMdX0AAgHvu?format=jpg
    Measured boat here would be one of the 2 coast guard ships, UK ship on right.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:33 am

    "While I am not going to get into our tactic and procedures, I can say that we operate in accordance with international law and expect Russia to do the same," Kafka added when asked about whether or not U.S. military forces issued any warnings to the Russian ships or otherwise communicated with them as they sailed past Hawaii. "U.S. military forces are present and active in and around the Western Pacific on a daily basis in support of the homeland and to ensure a Free and Open Indo-Pacific."

    Actually the USN violates the exclusive waters of countries all the time, including the Soviet Union, and more recently both Russia and India.

    The proximity of these Russian warships to Hawaii during these drills, even if it was only for a relatively short period of time, could easily be described as highly unusual and provocative.

    And if they had sailed 3km into US waters what would it be then?

    While the Russians did not say any actual bombers took part in the Pacific exercise, Tu-142 Bear long-range maritime patrol planes, a design derived from the Tu-95 Bear strategic bomber, did participate, along with Il-38 May maritime patrol planes and MiG-31BM Foxhound interceptors.

    Americans are idiots and constantly misidentify the Tu-142 as being a bomber because it is useful to do so.

    "No intercepts were conducted with the Russian planes likely turning away from the path toward the state," the Star-Advertiser reported. At the same time, this could indicate that the Russian planes appeared to be flying mock attack profiles at targets in Hawaii when the decisions were made to launch the F-22s.

    Hahahaha... those Russian planes were not there for sight seeing, but the F-22s clearly could not find them either so that is pretty amusing... but understandable because the F-22 is not Americas best aircraft and the Tu-142s are very stealthy and hard to find... Twisted Evil

    However, a significant Russian naval flotilla operating so close to American territory and so far away from home is a radically different show of force that is clearly meant to send a signal to the United States.

    Yeah, after all these years of HATO expansion and HATO exercises in the Arctic and the Baltic and the Black Sea, they decided to so the same and you don't seem to like that.

    Let's be real, the Russians won't do sh*t as it's just not worth the consequences.

    They are expanding their navy, how much of this sort of shit will the UK and US put up with when their turn comes?

    I swear to God if they don't show us a nice 1080p video of KH-32 or Kinzhal in action the next time it happens I'll..

    I am sure they are planning exercises for the next few years that will be in places the US and UK are not going to be happy about...

    This is all part of the law breaking the UK and US Navies engage in, which is so funny when they talk about international law...

    Russia appears to have responded like for like by conducting its own exercises off Hawaii, but clearly they are being pushed to respond ever more forcefully as the US and the UK continue to push the boundaries of reason and sanity.

    Russian exercises of Hawaii were likely planned a rather long time ago and likely in response the HATO exercises in the Black Sea and Arctic ocean.

    This is just fuel for a fire and it will keep... they will need to plan a fitting out voyage for the Kuznetsov which will likely involve at least one Kirov as well and it will likely be for a year or more so plenty of opportunity and scope there for getting into everyones backyard...

    Warning shots being fired at that failed UK ship which can be seen in the background.

    The angle of the gun suggests max range ballistic shots, but HE rounds would explode on impact with the sea so even from 6-7km away if the impacts of rounds is within 1-2km people on the target ship would hear.

    Pussyfooting with 30mm at 3 km away just invites more trespassers as we have just seen

    3 miles away... almost 5km.

    The British were fuming not so long ago because there was a Russian submarine in the Irish Sea. Just a tit for that for continued British meddling in the Black Sea area.

    But no violation of territorial waters. The Brits claim the Crimea is Ukrainian but that corner is Sevastopol and is Russian controlled normally anyway.

    Russia did shoot at the limey ship and the limeys scurried away. Russia shot something this time. Don't buy into the propaganda bullshit that it wasn't close enough or any of that BS.

    BTW. The Oxford Atlas shows Crimea as Russian territory. Because it's not a matter of opinion. Russia is in control of Crimea. So anything the limeys say about not recognizing it is a total red herring.

    There are lots of territories Russia could question British control of... Gibralta, Falklands Islands, etc etc.... you could create quite a long list very easily.

    That huge NATO exercise coming up later in the summer better stay away on the other side of the Black Sea, but even so, I would've blame Russia for being royally pissed off about these things so close to its borders.

    The US and UK wrote the book on being total dicks... that is not going to change any time soon.. but opportunities will come in the future and Russia can take advantage of the situation when they do.

    Russia should have sent a flight of 4 SU-24s to do a low level supersonic pass.

    Double post removed.

    I would say better to add a danger fee for the next lot of Russian gas they buy... to cover costs...

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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:50 am

    lancelot wrote:The British were fuming not so long ago because there was a Russian submarine in the Irish Sea. Just a tit for that for continued British meddling in the Black Sea area.
    Now the British are escalating once more. Pretty pathetic really. Perhaps China and Russia need to conduct a joint freedom of navigation circumnavigation of Great Britain.

    Maybe, whilst the Baltic Fleet should continue transiting North/South via the Channel, the Northern Fleet should change to transiting via the Irish Sea with a route just off the territorial limits of the Firth of Clyde. A simultaneous trip to start. Could create an interesting 'panic' as most of the Royal Navy is on a 'show the flag, stir dissent on the way' trip to China.

    As this action was probably US/NATO planned/authorised and maybe didn't go exactly to plan, an unintended consequence, apart from the above, could be an increase in Russian activity in the Caribbean. The obvious first move could be regular Tu-142M sorties out of Cuba and/or Venezuela as that can be done with little notice. Followed by a group of ships on a 'follow the territorial limit plus 5 miles' cruise down both US seaboards.

    Crazy, whichever way you look at it.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:43 pm

    Sometimes you guys are terrifying me scratch
    Simultaneously, you are expressing the warm feelings toward the British provocation, and demand Russia stand up to the same level of idiocy ...
    Warmongering.
    Yeah. That is the right word I guess. scratch
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    Post  Backman Fri Jun 25, 2021 11:45 pm

    LMFS wrote:UK leadership are behaving like retards and losers, Russia must not and will not worsen her reputation, complicate things for herself or in any way follow their stupid game, that would only serve UK purposes.

    Yeah. I think they handled it right. Even if they broad sided the ship with shots, the limey chavs would still obfuscate it to high hell.

    Its just another big expose for young Russians to see what dishonest deceitful scum the Anglo Saxxons are.

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    Post  flamming_python Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:21 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    mnztr wrote:Nah the Russian Navy is far too disciplined for that. They showed incredible discipline during the Cuban missile crisis and as a result we are all stilll here today.

    You mean back when they were chased out of Cuba with tails between their legs and being forced to agree to never even mention the fact that USA was also removing Jupiter missiles from Turkey?

    The first major victory of USA in the Cold War and event that proven to USA and the world (USSR included) beyond the shadow of a doubt that USA will be triumphant?

    That Cuban missile crisis?

    I wouldn't brag about it...


    You're a little naive PD

    It's not the way things are done

    This whole episode was just a rehearsal

    When the Brits send another ship to the same spot as they've promised to do, or that NATO naval exercise takes place and uses the same route - the Russians will reply by threatening to open fire, and then carry it out if NATO is not dissuaded by the warning.

    Because there's no other choice. Else the next step would be for the British vessel to escort a Ukrainian one, and then escort Ukrainian vessels through the Kerch straights and so on.
    So after gauging the adversaries intent, and this step is done now, the only option is to reply with force before the dimensions of any future confrontation expand. Sort of like the conflict in Khalkin-Gol.

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    Post  Backman Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:25 am

    If Russia knew they were coming, why didn't they park a ship in their path ? Which would make the chavs the ones who'd have to react.
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    Post  hoom Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:19 am

    then escort Ukrainian vessels through the Kerch straight
    Ukraininan vessels are allowed through already.
    Just they have to follow the rules for innocent passage.

    If Russia knew they were coming, why didn't they park a ship in their path ? Which would make the chavs the ones who'd have to react.
    Because A: a the lane is about 1.5km wide so you'd need a lot of ships to block it.
    B: blocking an international shipping route would make Russia unquestionably the bad guy in the situation.
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    Post  hoom Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:29 am

    On the question of UK not recognising the territorial waters around Crimea as Russian:
    Per https://www.moonofalabama.org/2021/06/experts-british-hms-defender-stunt-near-crimea-was-patently-illegal.html the UK does recognise Russia as the occupying power there and under international law the occupying power exercises control of and has responsibility for safety within the territorial waters -> they do still need to recognise Russian control.

    Additionally Russia has declared several areas as excluded for foreign warships
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 3 Closedzones
    This sort of thing is not allowed under UNCLOS but that didn't stop the US from setting the precedent which Russia can rely on:
    On 2 May 2004, the United States, acting as an occupying Power in Iraq, issued a notice to mariners establishing with immediate effect a 2,000-metre exclusion zone around the Khawr Al’Amaya and Al Basra oil terminals in the Persian Gulf and temporarily suspended “the right of innocent passage […] in accordance with international law around [these] oil terminals within Iraqi territorial waters.”

    That zone was continued until at least February 2006.

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    Post  miketheterrible Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:42 am

    Russia said they will escalate if the Brits try again. Judging by response from UK and lying, I don't think they will be that brazen next time.

    They don't need to sink the vessel either. They can surround it and send helicopters to land troops onto the ship and then move the navy men to a nearby base and then tell the UK if they try again, they will sink the vessels.  Iran did it to US troops so the Russians can easily do it against Brits easily.

    Also, if Brits try to escort a Ukies ship, wouldn't matter. The Ukies ship would be sunk and nothing the Brits could do
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:04 am

    Just Britain pretending to be relevant... and failing sadly.

    If they try it again then use bigger ships and get right up close and do what they did to the Americans trying the same shit in the 1980s....



    Craig Murray comments on this event

    Sometimes it is worth stating the obvious. The United Kingdom does not have a coast in the Black Sea. British warships are not infesting the Black Sea out of a peaceful intent, and there is no cause for them to be entering disputed waters close to anybody’s coast. This is not a question of freedom of navigation under the UN Convention of the Law of the Sea. There is nowhere that a British warship can be heading from the UK under the right of innocent passage that would require it to pass through coastal waters by Crimea. The Black Sea is famously a cul-de-sac.

    I expect we will now be in for a mad frenzy of Russophobia, yet again. I shall comment further once I have more details of why and exactly where Russia was firing warning shots. But just remember this, it was not Russian warships near the British coast, it was British warships in an area where they had no business other than ludicrous, British nationalist, sabre-rattling.

    The UK needs to lose its imperial delusions. Sending gunboats to the Crimea is as mad as – well, sailing an aircraft carrier expressly to threaten the Chinese. There are those who see this activity as evidence of the UK’s continued great power status. I see it as evidence of lunacy.

    https://katehon.com/en/news/black-ops-black-sea

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    Post  Mir Sat Jun 26, 2021 9:46 am

    GarryB wrote:Just Britain pretending to be relevant... and failing sadly.

    If they try it again then use bigger ships and get right up close and do what they did to the Americans trying the same shit in the 1980s....


    Great to see that small Petya standing it's ground against the Caron! I was actually on board the Caron on it's visit to Cape Town.
    The Spraunce class destroyers were quite a sizeable ships. Lots of this kind of stuff happened during the Cold War1 years.

    Also had the pleasure of boarding the Nastoychivyy (Sovremenny) and had a couple of beers with some Russians - great fun!

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    Post  slasher Sat Jun 26, 2021 7:13 pm

    Hole wrote:The russians put missiles on cuban soil to get rid of american missiles in Turkey. They got what they wanted.

    This time around and America perhaps needs to be "gently" persuaded again to shove off the cruise missile threat of those aegis ashore Mark 41 launchers in Romania and Poland. There for protection against Iranian ballistic missiles my a**. Rolling Eyes

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    Post  hoom Sat Jun 26, 2021 10:56 pm

    If you can stomach reading it all the self-incrimination, lies, contradictory ass-covering explanations & outright bullshit in this article are breathtaking
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9721115/PM-hits-Russia-warn-warships-sail-Crimean-waters-Moscow-opened-fire.html

    Add speeding in a shipping lane & intentionally sailing into a designated live fire exercise (admitted by the Captain no less) to the reasons that it wasn't Innocent Passage.

    One of the more curious idiocies is the claim that the Su-24s weren't armed, right below this photo of one of them clearly showing it carrying 4* 250kg bombs (1 under each wing & 2 under centre fuselage)
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    Post  Sujoy Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:29 am

    The Royal Navy ship need to count their blessings. Russia chose not to open fire at them. Not everyone is this fortunate.

    In 2012 an Italian ship entered India's territorial water, mistook 3 fishermen for pirates and opened fire killing 2 fishermen and critically injuring a third.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrica_Lexie_case

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    Post  Mir Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:21 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    US sailors have fond memories of those ramming incidents, it was a proof that their enemy has no stomach for a fight and that American victory is assured beyond any doubt



    Ok - so if those US sailors were so tough, why didn't they start WWIII?

    The ramming didn't just come from the Soviets side. This is just a way to send a very clear message "Game over - stop fucking with us".
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    Post  Arrow Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:57 am

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57624942.amp Laughing

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    Post  JohninMK Sun Jun 27, 2021 7:59 am

    Arrow wrote:https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-57624942.amp Laughing

    You are not supposed to put up bare links here!

    This is what it is all about. You couldn't make it up. Classified documents describing what the Royal Navy would be doing were found at a bus stop in London last Monday, before the event. Good job they weren't handed in to the Russian Embassy.

    Top secret MoD dossier is found at BUS STOP: Member of public finds 50 classified pages about Russian threat to HMS Defender ahead of Black Sea trip and military plans for Afghanistan - sparking urgent government inquiry

    Top-secret MoD dossier containing 50 classified pages has been found by member of public at Kent bus stop
    Dossier contains sensitive information about HMS Defender's provocative passage through the Black Sea
    Emails and PowerPoints show that journey was calculated decision to mark a show of support to Ukraine
    Officials knew voyage was being conducted in the expectation that Russia might respond with aggression
    Dossier also contains documents about a possible British military presence in Afghanistan post-withdrawal
    Urgent government inquiry has been launched, with MoD insisting that HMS Defender's trip was legal

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9729659/MoD-dossier-BUS-STOP-Public-finds-classified-pages-Russian-threat-HMS-Defender.html
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:03 am

    Yes, if memory serves me right, they had over 160 nuclear warheads on Cuban soil. That's a serious number at that time!

    Yes, the bean counters focused on the SS-4 and SS-5 missiles  (MRBM and IRBM respectively), and totally ignored the large number of FROG short range ballistic rockets that would be used to deliver tactical nuclear warheads against any landing ships the US might have used for an invasion.

    And USSR didn't have any nuclear warheads in Cuba, the ships that were supposed to deliver them turned around and ran away when faced with more determined US Navy

    The rest is history

    The nuclear warheads for the medium and intermediate range missiles had not arrived but those FROG were there are ready to be used...

    Do what? Admit that their Navy is as valuable as Icelandic fishing fleet? Followed by admission of defeat and dissolution of Russian Federation?

    This is a coast guard issue, not a Russian Navy issue... though the Russian Navy is there for support if needed... hence the Su-24s...

    If you have​ a warship and enemy vessel enters your territorial waters you open fire not play bumper cars like some carnival bitch

    US sailors have fond memories of those ramming incidents, it was a proof that their enemy has no stomach for a fight and that American victory is assured beyond any doubt

    The Royal navy is not the US Navy, only an American shoots when someone steps on its yard.

    When Iran opened fire on the US Navy, the US Navy shot down an airliner...

    Since the Lider class destroyers proposed S-500 air defense systems what other ships propose S-500 air defenses?

    They mentioned that any new CVN would need to be able to defend from threats under water, surface water and land, in the air, and from space... and you would need a large vessel for the necessary sensors and equipment anyway.

    One of the more curious idiocies is the claim that the Su-24s weren't armed, right below this photo of one of them clearly showing it carrying 4* 250kg bombs (1 under each wing & 2 under centre fuselage)

    The British also claimed no warning shots were fired even though the reporters on the ships said they heard gunfire, but then these people told the stories about Polonium and Novachok so lets just wait till Washington tells them what the real story is.

    Ok - so if those US sailors were so tough, why didn't they start WWIII?

    The ramming didn't just come from the Soviets side. This is just a way to send a very clear message "Game over - stop fucking with us".

    Indeed, after being rammed they left Soviet waters... so mission accomplished...


    Both Kirovs should be candidates.

    It all depends on the S-500 and how big they are and if they will fit in UKSK launch tubes or if they need UKSK-M launch tubes or if they have their own special launch tubes... but to have a radar that can see a minimum of 2,500km including up into space it is going to need to be a big ship.

    A series of slides prepared at PJHQ shows two routeing options, one described as "a safe and professional direct transit from Odessa to Batumi", including a short stretch through a "Traffic Separation Scheme" (TSS) close to the south-west tip of Crimea.

    This route, one slide concluded, would "provide an opportunity to engage with the Ukrainian government… in what the UK recognises as Ukrainian territorial waters."

    Three potential Russian responses were outlined, from "safe and professional" to "neither safe nor professional".

    In the event, Russia chose to react aggressively, with radio warnings, coastguard vessels closing to within 100 metres and repeated buzzing by warplanes.

    An alternative route was considered, which would have kept HMS Defender well away from contested waters.

    This would have avoided confrontation, the presentation noted, but ran the risk of being portrayed by Russia as evidence of "the UK being scared/running away", allowing Russia to claim that the UK had belatedly accepted Moscow's claim to Crimean territorial waters.


    Hahahaha... so the British did this because they were afraid of PD calling them pussies... hilarious... what a bunch of pussies...

    And it clearly shows their claims of innocent passage to be totally false...

    You are not supposed to put up bare links here!

    This is what it is all about. You couldn't make it up. Classified documents describing what the Royal Navy would be doing were found at a bus stop in London last Monday, before the event. Good job they weren't handed in to the Russian Embassy.

    Thank you John... Arrow, you and several others need to get into the habit of including a summary of what any link you might be posting is about or it may just be deleted and you will not get another warning.

    My patience is not infinite... soon deletions will be followed up with a few time outs for not following the rules or instructions of a mod.

    It is not hard what I am asking members to do...


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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jun 27, 2021 8:16 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    This is what it is all about.

    I find it hard to believe.
    Such a coincidence ...
    And what a marvelous picture we have there ...
    It is not a provocation, God forbid!
    The RN lords used to discuss the issue before it happened, and imagine what they discovered?
    Yes! Ze Evil Russkies would act in such an unprofessional manner ...
    Still, the Lord needs to be the Lord, and that request the proper posture. A professional one, of course.
    That is with guns lock&loaded, and all sensor set turned on, widely reported that to the onboard correspondents, still, it is an "innocent passage" Laughing
    Ze Evil Russkies are always such an unprofessionally ... They unprofessionally travel from Kaliningrad to Pete, buzzing all that professional fighters from Spain or Italy Laughing
    Remember how unprofessionally they denied The Freedom Fighters to say hello to Schoigu? How dare them. Unproffesionalls. All over there.

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    slasher

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    Post  slasher Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:49 am

    The British wankers are fishing for excuses to legitimize their reckless stunt. According to the same BBC article:
    Was this gunboat diplomacy? It was certainly the use of a warship in pursuit of diplomatic goals. But its primary objective was not to "poke the Russian bear" (a phrase and sentiment conspicuously absent from the documents). This was all about freedom of navigation and a clear endorsement of Ukraine's sovereignty, following Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014.

    So here we have two separate and distinct excuses put forward. One that it was a right of innocent passage. Two, that it was with Ukraine's permission who the Brits make-believe to be the owners of Crimea. Both are equally preposterous and are easily dismantled in this Moon of Alabama piece. Experts: British HMS Defender Stunt Near Crimea Was Patently Illegal

    As for @Papadragon, probably some would like to see mankind put out of his miseries but some of us enjoy life thank you very much. A country doesn't have to behave like cocky cowboy gunslinging s.o.b.'s self-convinced in their God-given exceptionalism as righteous warriors and ruler of the free world to prove it's a strong, independent global power. It takes two to tango, and one party would have to be the sane, realistic, rational one when things reach a critical point and "winning" an argument becomes moot in the face of barrelling headlong toward the ultimate final solution. Maybe to you that's pussying-out, but thankfully we lived to see another day and meet each other and yap around on this forum cheers

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    Kiko
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    Post  Kiko Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:00 pm

    Sensitive UK MoD Docs Reportedly Suggest London Planned HMS Defender Provocation as Media Stunt, by Tim Korso for Sputniknews. 27.06.2021.

    A Royal Navy warship entered the waters near the Crimean Peninsula on 23 June and sailed through them despite demands by Russian forces to leave the area. Moscow considers these waters part of its territory since a 2014 referendum in which Crimean residents voted to join Russia. The UK, however, does not recognise the results of the vote.

    A bundle of sensitive British Ministry of Defence documents, found by a member of the public at a bus stop, contained information about the 23 June HMS Defender incident near the shores of the Crimea, as well as other sensitive military information, the BBC has reported, citing the obtained papers.

    The documents, dated 21 June, reportedly contained an analysis of the potential consequences of the warship's passage through the waters, deemed by Russia as part of its territory. They also purportedly included information regarding the UK's operations in Afghanistan amid the US withdrawal from the country and London's thoughts on new US President Joe Biden and his administration.

    The British Ministry of Defence did not explicitly confirm the authenticity of the documents cited by the BBC. However, the ministry did admit that an employee had reported the loss of sensitive papers, refusing to delve into detail about the matter.

    The papers, cited by the British broadcaster, suggested that London expects increased threats towards its military personnel in Afghanistan, should the country decide to leave individuals behind following the US pull-out. The troops are reportedly already lacking awareness about the situation on the ground and even though they haven't faced Taliban attacks for over a year, this could change in the future. According to the papers, London isn't ruling out a complete withdrawal of its own forces.

    The 50-page treasure trove of documents, which include emails and presentations, also contains notes on a session of the UK-US Defence Dialogue that took place on 21 June. The briefing notes suggested that the new US administration has "much continuity" with the previous one in terms of its focus on China and the Indo-Pacific region in general. Furthermore, London apparently doubts that Washington's policy towards its allies has changed with the arrival of Joe Biden and seeks confirmation of promised greater US engagement with Europe, the documents claim.

    "We should use the meeting to see how much the administration is prepared to share, or whether its stated ambition of consulting more with allies is truer in principle than in practice", a portion of the briefing notes reportedly said.

    London Planned Provocation Near Crimea, Expected Harsh Reaction From Moscow

    The BBC report also goes into detail about the UK's deliberations on HMS Defender's passage from the Ukrainian port of Odessa to Batumi, Georgia. Per the obtained documents, two plans were on the table: a longer route around the Crimean Peninsula, and a shorter one where the warship would pass as close as 19 kilometres off Crimea's coast.

    The second plan meant that Defender would sail right through the waters that Moscow considers its territory since a 2014 referendum during which the overwhelming majority of the peninsula's residents voted in favour of joining Russia. However, western countries do not recognise the results of the referendum (and apparently Crimeans' rights to self-determination), and thus the UK described the second route as crossing "Ukrainian territorial waters".

    The same documents, cited by the BBC, show the UK realised it would be Moscow, not Kiev, who would react harshly to HMS Defender's "innocent passage". In international maritime law the term "innocent passage" is used to describe the peaceful movement of a military vessel through another country's territorial waters, which is only acceptable if this country does not object to it. Yet, international law does not permit this in cases where the status of waters is disputed – as is true with the waters off Crimea.

    Still, London apparently did not bother itself with the peculiarities of international maritime law in this case, but rather with the potential response by Moscow to its actions:

    "Following the transition from defence engagement activity to operational activity, it is highly likely that RFN (Russian Navy) and VKS (Russian Air Force) interactions will become more frequent and assertive", the documents obtained by the BBC said.

    Even understanding that Russia's response might range from "safe and professional" to "neither safe nor professional" (according to the documents), Britain chose to send HMS Defender right into the waters off of the Crimean Peninsula. The papers cited by the BBC offer an insight behind the two motives for this decision.

    First, London reportedly believed that taking a safer route for the HMS Defender would be understood by Moscow as a sign of the UK "being scared/running away". The papers also suggested the British government thought it would allow Russia to say that London had "belatedly accepted Moscow's claim to Crimean territorial waters".

    Second, the UK apparently sought to make a PR stunt out of the bold passage of its warship through the Russian-controlled waters, the documents show. According to the report, London believed the journalists from the BBC and Daily Mail, who were on board the warship on the day of the incident, 23 June, would provide an "independent verification of HMS Defender's action".

    Instead, the journalists witnessed how a Russian military vessel and a group of Su-24M fighter jets steered the HMS Defender away from Crimea's waters. The Russian Defence Ministry said the Russian warship had to fire a warning shot and that one of the jets had to drop bombs in the British destroyer's path because of the HMS Defender's refusal to heed warnings demanding it leave Russian territorial waters immediately. The Kremlin strongly condemned the UK's actions and summoned the country's envoy to deliver a note of protest.

    London initially dismissed Russia's statements about its military firing warning shots as "Russian disinformation", claiming that Moscow had simply carried out "gunnery exercises" nearby. Yet later, the chief of Britain's defence staff, General Nick Carter admitted that the 23 June incident near Crimea could create the risk of an "unwarranted escalation".

    https://sputniknews.com/uk/202106271083252621-sensitive-uk-mod-docs-reportedly-suggest-london-planned-hms-defender-provocation-as-media-stunt/

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    hoom

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    Post  hoom Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:30 am

    A bundle of sensitive British Ministry of Defence documents, found by a member of the public at a bus stop
    This is oldschool code for 'Leaked by a concerned insider'.
    But overall feels like a constructed false tale to me.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:32 am

    @Gary. Your title is WAAAYY too flattering - It should read "Border patrol incident with censored compulsive liars (Royal Navy)
    Isos
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    Post  Isos Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:32 pm

    Mir wrote:@Gary. Your title is WAAAYY too flattering - It should read "Border patrol incident agression with by censored compulsive liars (Royal Navy)

    Corrected for you.

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