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    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy)

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    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 7 Empty Classified Documents Found At Bus Stop Shed Light On UK-Russia Naval Altercation

    Post  Finty Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:08 pm

    Throwback the other week

    https://theowp.org/classified-documents-found-at-bus-stop-shed-light-on-uk-russia-naval-altercation/

    Classified Documents Found At Bus Stop Shed Light On UK-Russia Naval Altercation


    Classified documents from the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) — discovered by a member of the public at an English bus stop — offer some insight into British military thinking on last week’s naval incident near the Crimean coast. Of primary concern in the documents is the expected Russian response to HMS Defender’s passage within territorial waters considered by the UK and most other nations to be Ukrainian. The mission, dubbed “Op Ditroite,” is described by the MoD as an “innocent passage through Ukrainian territorial waters,” with the ship’s helicopter stowed in its hangar and its guns covered.

    However, the documents reveal an awareness that the Russian Navy may react aggressively, as indeed it did when more than 20 aircraft and two coastguard ships shadowed HMS Defender while it passed within 12 miles of the Crimean Coast. The documents’ content also covers British military thinking on the greater trajectory of relations with Russia, as a “transition from defence engagement activity to operational activity” makes it likely that interactions with the Russian navy and Russian air force will become “more frequent and assertive.” Totalling almost 50 pages, the recovered documents were seen and reported on by the BBC and also cover sensitive observations about potential areas of competition with European allies, recommendations for the UK’s military involvement in Afghanistan, and observations on the agenda of President Biden’s administration.

    The MoD has said it is investigating the incident, and has found that the employee reported the missing documents at the time. It continues to insist that HMS Defender conducted innocent passage through Ukrainian territorial waters according with international law. The BBC, who have reported on the contents of the documents while considering national security concerns, believe they originated in the office of a senior official. Responses from across the political divide have raised alarm at the mishandling of sensitive documents, with the Labour Party branding the situation “as embarrassing as it is worrying for ministers.” Meanwhile, Hans Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project, tweeted that the documents show a classic dilemma in military posturing: “if you do it, it might trigger an incident. If you don’t do it, the other side might claim you backed down.”

    The documents show that an alternative route was considered which would have avoided contested waters, but it was ultimately rejected so as not to allow Russia to portray the UK as “being scared/ running away.” This may have allowed Russia to claim that the UK had come to accept their claim to Crimean territorial waters, and by extension the Crimean peninsula. In a sense, it is encouraging for regional peace and stability that the confrontation arose from careful calculations rather than rash provocation. Although the Russian response was portrayed as an aggressive act and made international headlines, the fact that it was somewhat predicted and certainly considered by British military planners should moderately allay fears of misunderstandings triggering a wider conflict.

    The chosen route from Odessa, Ukraine, to Batumi, Georgia, passed close to Sevastopol, where a Russian naval base houses much of the Black Sea Fleet. This serves as a stark reminder that although the UK and most other UN members continue to recognize the Crimean Peninsula as Ukrainian territory, Russia has a monopoly on military force and considers such incidents near the coastline to be as unacceptable as at St. Petersburg or Kaliningrad. The UK feels it can reasonably claim to have acted in accordance with international law, since the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea considers a foreign ship as “innocent” when “it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order, or security of the coastal state.” In the view of the UK, Ukraine is the coastal state. This is the complicated situation which gave rise to last week’s posturing, and the confidential documents suggest the essential purpose of this posturing was to maintain the frozen situation.

    The insight given by the mishandled documents is somewhat reassuring, insofar as confirming that preparations for the passage were thoroughly considered. Of course, the competence of MoD employees is perhaps not the takeaway from a story of confidential documents being misplaced. But for those left alarmed by last week’s events, there is some solace in understanding the reasonable intent and calculations that determined such high-stakes decision-making.

    kvs
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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:38 pm

    What the UK and any other country consider to be Ukrainian territory has zero legal weight.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:12 pm

    LMFS wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Technically those are Ukrainian waters, yes they are controlled by the Russians and Ukraine will never get it back but that doesn't change the fact those are Ukrainian waters.

    So if Russia sunk the vessel in those waters that would be a defacto declaration of war and would trigger a NATO response.

    Facts don't care about your feelings, Crimea is NOT formal Russian territory it was annexed yes and the Russians control and they won't give it up but that doesn't change the fact legally speaking it's not their territorial waters. I know this will trigger fanboys but nothing I said is factually wrong.

    We'd all be dead by Nuclear War if the idiots in this forum had their way I swear.

    What a pretentious load of crap, you super expert in international law Laughing

    Cry fanboy nothing I said was factually wrong.
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    Post  Mir Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:00 pm

    Crimea is part of the RF, whether you and your friends like it or not. It will remain to be part of the RF and that is a fact.

    No animal or human was either harmed or killed in the process.

    The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia was illegal. The NATO attack on Libya was illegal. The US/NATO invasion of Iraq was illegal.
    The 20 year long US-Afghan War was illegal. The US/NATO military actions in Syria are illegal. The annexation of large parts of Syria by US forces are illegal.
    "Keeping the oil" in Syria is illegal. And the list goes on..

    The civilian death toll in all these illegal wars are enormous, with countless more maimed for life. You are ruled by psychopaths and murderers. These are the facts.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:05 pm

    Mir wrote:Crimea is part of the RF, whether you and your friends like it or not. It will remain to be part of the RF and that is a fact.

    No animal or human was either harmed or killed in the process.

    The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia was illegal. The NATO attack on Libya was illegal. The US/NATO invasion of Iraq was illegal.
    The 20 year long US-Afghan War was illegal. The US/NATO military actions in Syria are illegal. The annexation of large parts of Syria by US forces are illegal.
    "Keeping the oil" in Syria is illegal. And the list goes on..

    The civilian death toll in all these illegal wars are enormous, with countless more maimed for life. You are ruled by psychopaths and murderers. These are the facts.

     

    Adding to that, the Crimean referendum was fully legal, according to UN chart Laughing
    So functionally all said by this actor is wrong Laughing
    Fixed for you all welcome
    And I am still the last king of Scotland, so ... you know how to behave, right? Laughing
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    Post  lyle6 Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:18 pm

    Why even reply to the troll?
    2021 Black Sea incident with professional liars (Royal Navy) - Page 7 K5ygb010

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:24 pm

    As much as I sustain your meme judge, there are still 300mil Americans kept hostage for this insane construction, when a printing press pretends to be a country ...

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    Post  Azi Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:31 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    LMFS wrote:
    mavaff wrote:Point is: some folks consider Crimea still Ukranian soil so technically that ship was not in Russian waters LOL

    Good to know, next time they do that they can ask Ukraine for compensation when their ship is sent to the bottom pwnd

    Technically those are Ukrainian waters, yes they are controlled by the Russians and Ukraine will never get it back but that doesn't change the fact those are Ukrainian waters.

    So if Russia sunk the vessel in those waters that would be a defacto declaration of war and would trigger a NATO response.

    Facts don't care about your feelings, Crimea is NOT formal Russian territory it was annexed yes and the Russians control and they won't give it up but that doesn't change the fact legally speaking it's not their territorial waters. I know this will trigger fanboys but nothing I said is factually wrong.

    We'd all be dead by Nuclear War if the idiots in this forum had their way I swear.
    NO!

    It was a separation, but not an annexion! The parliament of the autonomus republic of Crimea...yes "republic" and not "oblast"...pathed the way for the referendum. And during this time the Government of Ukraine was not existent, during this weeks anarachy ruled Ukraine and power laid not in Kiev but in the regions. In german TV a few years ago I saw an expert in international law and he said clearly that it was technical a separation and by no means an annexion, to the displease of the moderator.

    Yes, of course russian soldiers were stationed in Crimea and during the times of anarchy a lot more were brought to Crimea, but not to fake the referendum...more to secure the citizens from some ukraine hotheaded nazi idiots with weapons and tanks. To be true Crimea during this time was not autonomus anymore, Ukraine cancelled the automous status against the will of Crimea.

    Crimea was never a happy and loyal part of Ukraine, it was more connected to Russia or wanted some kind of independence. The naivety of people in the early 90ies made them believe that everyone will be a billionaire if they lick the ass of western countries, so Ukraine and Crimea sought their future not in Russia and more in a independent way.

    But maybe you are right?! And the citizen of Crimea want to be part of glorious Ukraine! SLAVA UKRAINE!!! The poorest shithole in europe, even people in Moldavia and Albania are richer. And according to your logic Texas is part of Mexiko and not USA, California too! A russian cruiser 5 miles away from San Francisco would be according to your logic be in mexican territorial waters, not us-american Wink

    ---

    None would start a war or even a nuclear war because of a sunken ship in foreign territorial waters. None is soo fucking stupid or suicidal!

    Even a full scale war in Europe between NATO and Russia with dozens of thousands of dead people would not trigger a strategic nuclear strike. Not even tactical nuclear strikes would trigger instantly the dangerous strategic nuclear strikes.

    Russia reacted really soft in this incident. An attack would be 100 % justified and would not trigger any military action by NATO or even UK.

    ---

    So why this passage through russian territorial...IT was political poker party, nothing more. Western politicians love the russian scapegoat, it's like a gift from heaven...if they are too stupid to make some sane decisions it was the russians! The russians did it! ALWAYS!!! Russians, russians, russians!The russian untermensch is evil and behind all negative things that happen...now not Nazi Germany is responsible for start of WWII the russians did it (ask polish politicians!)...and next year russians only are responsible for climate change and the death of Jesus maybe too.

    But what would happen if Russia reallywould let the HMS Defender hit the ground of the black sea? SANCTIONS!!! That's what a few people in UK and USA prayed for...not for their sailors, but for russians to attack. This would be a justification to expel Russia from the SWIFT system and furher harder sanctions. The guys in Washington know there is only ONE way to beat Russia...not with weapons but with sanctions. Of course this is stupid but I never sayed that the polticians in London or Washington are smart.

    Washington and London will never stop with provocative behaviour against Russia, only if Russia will kick them out some teeth they will go to status quo and accept some kind of cold war 2.0 with no more provocative actions.

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    Post  LMFS Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:47 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Cry fanboy nothing I said was factually wrong.

    Crimea river US troll Laughing

    Eager to read your theses about technicalities of international law dealing with disputed territories.

    Come on, don't be shy. We all here deserve a good laughter

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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:57 pm

    Americans are proud that they know nothing about the rest of the world. Then they act like they speak with authority on it.

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    Post  LMFS Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:09 am

    kvs wrote:Americans are proud that they know nothing about the rest of the world.   Then they act like they speak with authority on it.

    Their cheek and incompetence are an explosive mix, I want to read more from our Professor here Laughing
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:17 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    Mir wrote:Crimea is part of the RF, whether you and your friends like it or not. It will remain to be part of the RF and that is a fact.

    No animal or human was either harmed or killed in the process.

    The NATO bombing of Yugoslavia was illegal. The NATO attack on Libya was illegal. The US/NATO invasion of Iraq was illegal.
    The 20 year long US-Afghan War was illegal. The US/NATO military actions in Syria are illegal. The annexation of large parts of Syria by US forces are illegal.
    "Keeping the oil" in Syria is illegal. And the list goes on..

    The civilian death toll in all these illegal wars are enormous, with countless more maimed for life. You are ruled by psychopaths and murderers. These are the facts.

     

    Adding to that, the Crimean referendum was fully legal, according to UN chart Laughing
    So functionally all said by this actor is wrong Laughing
    Fixed for you all welcome
    And I am still the last king of Scotland, so ... you know how to behave, right? Laughing

    Actually, I can tell you never read the charter, because if you did you'd know the line people like to use "the right to self-determination" doesn't work like the morons here think.

    You cannot vote and secede from your host country and nowhere in the UN charter does it say that's the thing lol.



    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:18 am

    LMFS wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Cry fanboy nothing I said was factually wrong.

    Crimea river US troll Laughing

    Eager to read your theses about technicalities of international law dealing with disputed territories.

    Come on, don't be shy. We all here deserve a good laughter

    Naw I just said whats right, you can act like the child you are because someone said something you don't like. Throw all the hissy fits you want kid, What I said is 100 percent correct.

    again facts do not care about your delusional fanboy feelings.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:21 am

    @Garry

    "No they are not, the Ukraine makes no efforts themselves to police them, or manage them.

    Those waters are legally Crimean waters and the Crimean waters are Russian"


    Congrats you have said something so stupid, I now wonder how you can put pants on in the morning.

    Ukraine cannot do that because of the Russian military.

    Also, Crimea is a legal part of Ukraine, not Russia, the waters are Ukrainian, not Russian.

    The vote was illegal period. So was Russia's integration of Crimea.

    Do I care they annexed it? not at all, but unlike you and 99 percent of the fanboys here. I state what the facts are not what I want them to be.
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:28 pm

    Ukraine cannot do that because of the Russian military.

    So the people of any piece of land cannot decide their future... tell that to the people of the Falklands Islands... whoops... Malvinas...

    But you also suggest that the Russian Navy is free to sail as close to Guam or Gibraltar as they please because the native populations don't get much choice as to who is in charge there either.

    Also, Crimea is a legal part of Ukraine, not Russia, the waters are Ukrainian, not Russian.

    Its status was changed by decree during the Soviet period and by vote in 2014. It is Russian territory and Russian waters.

    The vote was illegal period. So was Russia's integration of Crimea.

    The UN decides on legality and their ruling in such cases is that the local population gets the vote, which actually occurred in this case, making it all legal and above board.

    The Russians had an agreement with the Ukraine for the lease of Sevastopol and areas in the Crimea, and they were permitted to have up to 25,000 soldiers in that location and the facts are they never deployed more than 20,000 during the period in question. Their only role was supporting the local Crimean people to watch the Ukrainian radicals and loyal armed forces and police and prevent them doing anything to interfere in the referendum, and they were successful in that no one was injured and no one died.

    A peaceful referendum brought back the results of almost total turnout of those elligible to vote and over 96% voting to join the Russian Federation... which is what occurred.

    Your and your governments feelings about this are not important. The reality on the ground is that the Crimea and the waters around it are now Russian occupied... mostly by Crimean Russians... and also Russian Managed.

    BTW if the Royal Navy does not recognise the Crimea as being Russian then I expect any Royal Airforce aircraft to simply fly across Crimean territory if they want to go from the Ukraine to Georgia.... that would be interesting... Twisted Evil

    The facts on the ground is that the west does not have a leg to stand on and if the Royal Navy are stupid enough to follow through they are going to suffer shell splinter damage to one of their nice new ships... but Johnson doesn't have the spine to follow through anyway.

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:40 pm

    It is actually quite funny when I hear about ownership of a Crimea living in a country recreated in 1918-1921 with help of arms, wars, armed rebellions, and organized frauds called "plebiscites" Laughing
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:39 pm

    Whether the Crimea is Russian or Ukrainian doesn't really matter in this case. No-one disputes that Russia is the 'Occupying Power' of Crimea.

    As such Russia has taken on all the 'coastal State' legal responsibilities of Crimea that includes, amongst other things, enforcing the territorial limits and issuing Notices to Mariners, NM, regarding safety of passage.

    I have seen a map posted earlier here of the Russian NMs issued for the period up to October covering the area west and south of Crimea that the Defender was sailing through. Russia had an obligation the get the UK ship out of the area for its own safety.

    Also, although we only knew after the event, the British ship was not undergoing 'peaceful passage' due to this Article 19, clause in the UN Convention on the Sea

    (d) any act of propaganda aimed at affecting the defence or security of the coastal State.

    So its not a black and white situation but the World knows Russia's position on it now, regardless of the small print.

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    Post  Mir Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:35 pm

    The super stealthy SEALS are coming!lol!

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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:58 pm

    what people fail to grasp is that Ukraine as it is doesnt actually exist. Its constitution was broken in 2014 when the coup happened. Essentially, every leader since has been illegal under Ukrainian law. Ukraine ceases to exist and technically the project is over - the lands of what is "Ukraine" needs to be split now and go back to what they were. Crimea was the first one.

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    Post  Mir Fri Jul 09, 2021 7:26 pm

    Looks like Ukraine may end up back in 1921 pretty soon and if they're not careful it may well be back to 1654! Smile

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:02 pm

    And one must recall the first attempt of Crimea to secede from Ukraine.
    Hardly anyone remembers and/or uses that case as proof of self-determination of Crimeans on the path to choose their own fate.
    In Sep 1990, The Crimean Supreme Soviet calls upon the Supreme Soviets of the Soviet Union and Russian SFSR to nullify the decisions to strip Crimea of its autonomous status.
    January 1991, there was a referendum held.
    The referendum question was:
    Do you support re-establishing the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic as a subject of the Union SSR and a participant of the Union Treaty?
    94% of the Crimeans voted yes, with 80% of voters participating.
    That alone would give it the right to vote in an all-Soviet referendum about dissolving or keeping the Soviet Union.
    The referendum - I will underline that - gave a result that SU should be sustained.
    It was a time when SU was decomposing by the will and power of not the people and nations, but regional regimes and local party oligarchs.
    The Central Soviet regime granted the autonomous attempts for all the republics, and all of them happily joined the secession.
    But what was OK for bigger republics with their own soviets and local authorities and political elites, was not OK when smaller subjects of those republics took the same path.
    If you don't know the history, just take a chance to sit still.

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    Post  Hole Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:24 pm

    Abkhazia comes to mind.

    Russia is the official legal successor to the "Soviet Union". It would be funny if the russian duma passed a law that dismisses the breaking up of the state. Laughing

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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:42 pm

    Not only Abkhazia, but the Chechen-Ingush Republic is second in mind.
    Ingushetia disembarks from the boat back in 1992, but it was not an easy process as well.
    There was a civil war heating up in Chechenya, with a constant flow of refugees running north.
    One can hardly find any information in English about the ethnic cleansing of Chechenya when de facto independence was in a full swing.
    It was so harsh, that even a drunken Yeltsin had to react for that, worried about the entire Caucasus simply ripping off, and a kind of Arabian sponsored emirate will appear just next door.
    History is a bitch.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 10, 2021 6:49 am

    Mir wrote:Looks like Ukraine may end up back in 1921 pretty soon and if they're not careful it may well be back to 1654! Smile

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    The amusing thing is that in the west we are taught that that dark green bit on the left hand side is actually Poland... this is the part of Russia that was stolen by Poland in the 1917-1922 war from Russia and seized back in 1939 when Germany invaded what was actually Poland and left the stolen Russian piece for the Russians to reclaim.

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    Post  Mir Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:31 am

    Hole wrote:Abkhazia comes to mind.

    Russia is the official legal successor to the "Soviet Union". It would be funny if the russian duma passed a law that dismisses the breaking up of the state. Laughing

    The real kicker for me was the actions of the Baltic States. I completely understand their desire for independence, but by joining NATO they've instantly put a HUGE target on their back voluntarily!

    The best step forward would have been to declare neutrality and have good relations with the West and even Russia if they wanted to. dunno

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