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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:43 am

    Russia has spent a lot of time and money and planning to get their ship building industry to where it is, and the cooperation of the government and new laws and regulations to support the civilian ship operators is going to be critical to their success in the near future.

    It would be stupid and short sighted to spend billions on the Zvezda shipyards paid to South Korea to get a large and fully modern shipyard able to produce all sorts of products and vessels and then just abandon the whole sector to market forces.

    This new growth in military is no surprise and it is not accidental... a lot of ground work had to be done and a lot of technologies had to be mastered and still do... in many ways it was like the rebuilding of the Russian Army... a lot of it seemed to be standing still and doing nothing, but a lot of planning and preparation went into what happened... from creating a whole new new generation C4IR network, through to building training bases to learn to use the new hardware and systems... they started with a German system that was state of the art HATO that most HATO countries could not afford and the obvious and inevitable sanctions meant they completed several other training facilities on their own in their four new military regions.

    The Germans assumed Russia couldn't complete it and so they would never get any functioning training facilities, just like the US and EU assumed that without the Ukrainian gearboxes and engine parts they could not have a navy.

    They were of course wrong and the resulting systems they have developed were all done with state of the art design and improved on the old Soviet Era hardware the Ukrainians were producing.

    Built with modern materials and made to much finer tolerances they found their new Russian made motors and gearboxes had better performance and were more reliable.

    So now they can offer to sell such products to other countries knowing they can make it all without permission...

    So eventually it will be good for Russia to take control of the 3 delapidated large yards in Nikolaev and the one in Kherson (plus the othe repair yards in cities like Mariupol, Ismail, etc), but the investment to be done to bring them to a modern and efficient state will be massive (probably comparable to building the Zvezda shipyard)

    By the time Russia gets anywhere near those places the whole country will be timeshares and cafes...

    Russia can let that stuff go and plan to fix its own infrastructure and those of actual allies who would appreciate it.


    Better in the meanwhile to concentrate on bringing to a modern standard the available ones and stopping ordering ships from abroad (I believe that a large part of civilian ships used from Russian firms are still made in foreign countries).

    Producing them in Russia will be alot cheaper anyway, though the fact that the price of oil might start to climb again could mean that the Ruble is going to become more valuable compared with the Euro and Greenback... if I was into money speculating I would be transferring money into Rubles right now as global travel starts to create demand for fossil fuels.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    So eventually it will be good for Russia to take control of the 3 delapidated large yards in Nikolaev and the one in Kherson (plus the othe repair yards in cities like Mariupol, Ismail, etc), but the investment to be done to bring them to a modern and efficient state will be massive (probably comparable to building the Zvezda shipyard)

    By the time Russia gets anywhere near those places the whole country will be timeshares and cafes...

    Russia can let that stuff go and plan to fix its own infrastructure and those of actual allies who would appreciate it.

    I do not mean to invest in them if a new government less hostile to Russia comes in country 404.
    I mean if in 6 or 10 years time Nikolaev and Kherson (and Odessa Mariupol, Ismail etc.) become again part of Russia.

    Even if in the last 30 years it was mismanaged and destroyed by the Ukrainians (and probably this will continue for the next 5-10 years), Nikolaev had an extreme significance for the Imperial Russian and the Soviet navy and shipbuilding. It has nothing to do with Ukrainian industry or shipbuilding

    The first shipyard there was founded in 1787.
    I believe only Sankt Petersburg has more significance for the Russian shipbuilding history.

    It has also the advantage of nicer weather and will be ice free also in winter (as only Crimea is at the moment for Russia).

    Furthermore, re-establishing some industries in the whole naval supply chain there will be also beneficial for shipbuilding in Crimea and in the rest of Russia

    It will be nice if in 10 years the hull of an upgraded 22350M (or of another large surface warship) (and possibly some civilian ships as well) will be laid down in one of the shipyards there.

    In the meanwhile Severnaya verf and possibly Yantar will continue building frigates (and possibly destroyers).
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    Post  GarryB Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:52 am

    I appreciate what you are saying, the ports and shipyards in the Ukraine are part of Russian history but developments and the current situation means they are lost to the Russians and not only beyond repair but continue to be further degraded.

    It is a terrible shame, but as you point out some historically critical aircraft manufacturers inside current Russian borders have been ruined and had malls and shopping centres built in them for a fast buck.

    If you asked me 10-15 years ago about the chances of Russia getting the Crimea back or even just the naval base ownership instead of a lease to the Kiev government I would be just as pessimistic, and clearly wrong, but the real difference is that Russia gains a huge amount by integrating the Crimea back into the Russian Federation and the population almost fully supports that... even now a significant percentage of the population of the areas you are talking about blames Russia and Putin for all their problems and no amount of investment or trade is going to change that... and the fundamental problem is that any money spent there is wasted and will not be appreciated and it would just take one bribed government or one US funded coup and it all goes back to hostile territory.

    If the EU and US and the Ukrainians themselves want to make nice with Russia they are going to have to do a lot of things and I don't think the will do any of them.

    First of all apologies and lots of current people in power going to jail... including in the US and EU for murder and all sorts of other lessor charges.

    Second after lots of court cases and lots of changes to their laws they need to work to fix their country up before Russia will start trading with them again as an equal... but that is the key... Russia will trade with them as an equal... but only when they get their shit together and get that chip off their shoulder and start telling the truth about history.

    That is not an offer they will get from the EU or US... ironically the best relations they can hope for with the west sounds a lot like the names of those two regions... there is Ewww (Ukraine) and US (the west) and their distain for this second world country will not change for a very long time.

    You can lead a horse to water...

    The fact is that Russia has been working to a plan and that plan has been in effect for quite a few decades... the UKSK launcher system and the Redut launch system didn't just fall from the sky by accident.

    There have been problems of course... many of which created by the Ukraine, but overall it has made Russia stronger because they did it in stages instead of all at once, but lets not give them any credit for being stupid... this was all meant to damage Russia and in the short term it did.

    In the long term it has made Russia independent of the Ukrainian market, just like EU sanctions and US sanctions are doing the same.

    To suggest that somehow Russia should pine for the day to open and pay for the renovation and upgrade of old shipyards to give work to Orcs that murdered fellow Ukrainians just because those Ukrainians wanted to continue to speak Russian... I think not.

    Give work to the victims, but it makes no sense to build a giant shipyard in the Black Sea when they have already built one in the Pacific and are expanding shipyards around their own country to make and maintain larger vessels.

    Invest in production and technology in the rebel regions when they become autonomous so they can work and will have something to trade with Russia and any other countries that will trade with them.... I suspect the west will not trade with them in the same way they will not trade with the Crimea either, but there is an entire world out there of countries they could trade with.

    These places wont become and should not become part of Russia for at least 20 years... let them be autonomous and trade with Russia and any other countries that will trade with them and in a good amount of time they can decide if they want to join the Russian federation.

    Don't make them do it out of fear, don't make them think Russia is going to fix all their problems, and don't make it like a divorce where both parents shower the kid in presents and bad food to win their love... something the EU and US have clearly not done with Kiev... but did do with West Germany and Japan and South Korea... though of course the cost was total political subservience to the US effectively. The irony is that countries like Australia and the UK are just as led around by the nose but without the cash funding....

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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jun 20, 2021 1:15 pm


    Soon only thing left of the Ukrainian shipyards will be some rusty metal and weed filled ditches

    So can we please stop wasting server space on this?

    This is supposed to be Gorshkov frigate tread

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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:13 pm

    https://vz.ru/news/2021/6/24/1105600.html

    Currently, six frigates of Project 22350 are in various stages of construction at Severnaya Verf (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation), Igor Orlov noted.

    According to him, on the second serial frigate "Admiral Golovko", centering of bulk lines, installation of special equipment, systems and mechanisms are being carried out. On the frigate "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Isakov", the commissioning of premises for priming and insulation continues, auxiliary equipment is being mounted to ensure the loading of the main engines. They will arrive at the plant in two stages - in July and August.

    On the frigates "Admiral Amelko" and "Admiral Chichagov" slipway work continues. For the first, a body is formed, for the second, sections are assembled. On orders from "Admiral Yumashev" and "Admiral Spiridonov", the process of concluding contracts for products with a long production period continues.

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    Post  owais.usmani Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:14 pm

    http://www.nordsy.spb.ru/pressroom/19994/

    UEC Rostec and Severnaya Verf signed an agreement during the Tenth International Maritime Defense Show (IMDS-2021) for the supply of four diesel-gas turbine units М55Р for frigates Admiral Yumashev and Admiral Spiridonov of project 22350. The total volume of orders reached 12 units with a delivery time of up to 2025.

    Serial deliveries of М55Р began in 2020, when the frigate "Admiral Golovko" was equipped with them. The next set of units for completing the main power plant of the frigate "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Isakov" is planned to be sent to the customer in July-August 2021.

    “The new agreement is a continuation of the partnership between UEC and Severnaya Verf. It increases the total number of contracted units to 12 units, ensuring deliveries through 2025. Russian competencies in the field of offshore gas turbine construction allow us to meet the necessary needs of the Russian fleet in the supply of units, ”said UEC Deputy General Director Viktor Polyakov.

    In total, according to existing orders, six frigates will be equipped with M55R units: Admiral Golovko, Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Isakov, Admiral Amelko, Admiral Chichagov, Admiral Yumashev and Admiral Spiridonov.

    “United Engine Corporation is the only and, what is important, reliable manufacturer of diesel-gas turbine units for our frigates. In a fairly short time, the corporation managed to successfully organize import substitution, create turbines of the required technical parameters, at least not inferior to foreign analogues, and set up their serial production, ”said Igor Orlov, General Director of Severnaya Verf.

    As part of the main power plant of each project 22350 ship, two diesel-gas turbine units М55Р are used - on the right and on the left side.

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:53 pm

    Project 22350M Super Gorshkov Cool

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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 33 28-98218

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:01 pm

    Absolute weird model. scratch
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    Post  Isos Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:47 pm

    196 S-300/400 in the back.

    120 UKSK on the front between the pantsirs.

    96 redut in the front.

    Judging by the size of the helicopter it must be 220-250m long.

    Another Lider monstruosity.

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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:01 pm

    ... and the air operations officer henhouse hid behind the ship's side, crippling all line of sight.
    It is a madman's dream.
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:24 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:Project 22350M Super Gorshkov Cool ...

    It's not

    Will people please stop reposting this old debunked crap?

    Even components are not to proper scale FFS...

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    Post  flamming_python Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:31 pm

    That thing is a beast Shocked
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    Post  ALAMO Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:41 pm

    This thing is a madman's dream.
    PD already mentioned it does not even keep the scale.
    Mixing of new systems with something 40y/o ...
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    Post  dino00 Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:38 pm

    This isn't a new presentation?
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    Post  PapaDragon Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:03 pm

    dino00 wrote:This isn't a new presentation?

    It's some old crap they keep bringing out all the time, it's nonsense
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    Post  flamming_python Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:13 pm

    It's cool russia
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    Post  ChineseTiger Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:45 am

    Super Gorshkov is a neat looking ship, but for the foreseeable future it is too expensive given Russia's current economic capability.
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    Post  hoom Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:55 am

    It is a cool model & it looks like a bigger Gorshkov but its not a new model, its been kicking around a long time and never directly stated what project it represents.
    When you look at the details its either pure fantasy or a Lider candidate with VLS cell count that'd make an entire US CVBG jealous.

    The info thats been put out for Super Gorshkov is for a relatively small size bump with maybe 50% more cells tops, clearly still of Frigate/small Destroyer (eg Type 45) class.

    Edit: I will say these are by a decent margin the best quality pics of the model, absolutely no doubt that this is Lider scale armament.
    With lower quality pics people had been previously interpreting the 4-cell groupings as a single cell hatch.

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    Post  hoom Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:08 am

    196 S-300/400 in the back.
    Oh my!
    In my previous counts I've assumed those are Kinzhal/naval Tor but now we can see them properly even I've been deceived about the true scale of this thing Shocked
    Those are indeed S-300 groupings as seen on the Slava class
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 33 SA-N-6_SAM_launchers_with_radar
    3* Slavas worth of them pale

    And now the relatively low Redut cell count actually makes sense: In the context of 196 S-3/400 cells the Redut cells would only be loaded with the shorter range 9M96 model/quad-packed 9M100s.

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:42 pm

    It is essentially a Udaloy layout basically, but...

    In my previous counts I've assumed those are Kinzhal/naval Tor but now we can see them properly even I've been deceived about the true scale of this thing Shocked
    Those are indeed S-300 groupings as seen on the Slava class

    But that is not what they are.... those are 24 x 8 tube launchers for the naval TOR missile system... essentially 192 TOR missiles ready for self defence... as you point out the scale is wrong for them to be S-300F Rif launchers.

    Would just say it needs a bigger gun...
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    Post  calripson Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:58 pm

    Too many eggs in one basket.
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    Post  The_Observer Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:29 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:Project 22350M Super Gorshkov Cool

    It has not. The model is from Morinforsystem-Agat. They make a lot of radar and VLS systems for the Russian Navy.

    This is merely a company concept to show off their prospective radar and VLS products. This concept is in no way connected to the Rus Navy.

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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:41 pm


    Looks like Gorshkov-clas will be cut down to just 8 hulls and Navy is going back to their usual stupidity of starting from scratch in the middle of the series construction hoping that they will not screw up next project just when they finally stopped screwing up current one No

    https://portnews.ru/news/314664/




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    Post  Arrow Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:46 pm

    But the 9th and 10th frigate 22350 were signed that year ago. They should build at least 15 of them.
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    Post  franco Wed Jun 30, 2021 10:58 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Looks like Gorshkov-clas will be cut down to just 8 hulls and Navy is going back to their usual stupidity of starting from scratch in the middle of the series construction hoping that they will not screw up next project just when they finally stopped screwing up current one   No

    https://portnews.ru/news/314664/

    I have also noticed mention of 8 ships. Not sure it doesn't represent the 8 left on order after the first 2 were delivered or that they feel comfortable switching to the enlarged version coming from the soon to be new enlarged shipyard.

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