Russia Defence Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


+69
Mir
ChineseTiger
Dorfmeister
Scorpius
JeremySun
lancelot
ALAMO
bren_tann
Lurk83
franco
marcellogo
Backman
Singular_Transform
The_Observer
Kiko
Rasisuki Nebia
calripson
LMFS
walle83
Sujoy
medo
x_54_u43
Tai Hai Chen
Begome
Cyberspec
AJ-47
Viktor
jhelb
TheArmenian
ultimatewarrior
The-thing-next-door
mnztr
littlerabbit
JohninMK
ATLASCUB
flamming_python
ult
PhSt
owais.usmani
Gazputin
Admin
MiamiMachineShop
GarryB
Arrow
Rodion_Romanovic
SeigSoloyvov
Hole
william.boutros
marat
kvs
xeno
Tingsay
magnumcromagnon
Austin
dino00
GunshipDemocracy
PapaDragon
AlfaT8
kumbor
Labrador
miketheterrible
Big_Gazza
Nibiru
miroslav
verkhoturye51
hoom
Isos
Stealthflanker
George1
73 posters

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31475
    Points : 32005
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:15 am

    Russia is really slow at building frigates.

    Russia has never had a lot of frigates... most of its Krivak class frigates were used by the MVD border patrol forces eventually.

    Russia has ships, and while it has a shortage of modern ships it is solving those problems... they are getting the designs right and operationally tested before starting any large series production runs.

    They don't have any pressing need for a very large navy at the moment... in 10-20 years time when they are expanding their trade base to a much broader group of partners that don't include their neighbours and the west then their navy will be more important... but of course by then they will have several solid designs they can mass produce to create the navy they want... it will never match the west in numbers... that just simply isn't realistic or practical.

    The new Russian Navy will be rather smaller but also vastly more capable and power than the Soviet Navy ever was.
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 1495
    Points : 1483
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:33 am

    TheArmenian wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    According to this two Gorshkov frigates are to be laid down this year, does anyone know anything more about it?

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/226286.html

    The information is from unnamed sources in the defense ministry:
    https://tass.com/defense/1078861

    Could be true. But there is no confirmation yet.
    I see that no name is given... maybe they could call them admiral Butakov and admiral istomin... the name that the 2 11356 frigates sold to India should have had.
    ultimatewarrior
    ultimatewarrior


    Posts : 819
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2016-09-19
    Location : Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  ultimatewarrior Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:35 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Russia is really slow at building frigates.

    Russia has never had a lot of frigates... most of its Krivak class frigates were used by the MVD border patrol forces eventually.

    Russia has ships, and while it has a shortage of modern ships it is solving those problems... they are getting the designs right and operationally tested before starting any large series production runs.

    They don't have any pressing need for a very large navy at the moment... in 10-20 years time when they are expanding their trade base to a much broader group of partners that don't include their neighbours and the west then their navy will be more important... but of course by then they will have several solid designs they can mass produce to create the navy they want... it will never match the west in numbers... that just simply isn't realistic or practical.

    The new Russian Navy will be rather smaller but also vastly more capable and power than the Soviet Navy ever was.

    The time it takes Russia to build 1 frigate, China builds 20 destroyers, Britain or France builds 10 frigates. Granted, Russia does not need that many frigates considering Russia has nukes and ain't having a domination strategy. Nevertheless, Russia is extremely slow as far as shipbuilding goes.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31475
    Points : 32005
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB Fri Jan 24, 2020 3:04 am

    The time it takes Russia to build 1 frigate, China builds 20 destroyers, Britain or France builds 10 frigates. Granted, Russia does not need that many frigates considering Russia has nukes and ain't having a domination strategy. Nevertheless, Russia is extremely slow as far as shipbuilding goes.

    What British frigates?

    A British frigate has less powerful armament than a Russian corvette... it is pathetic... barely one step up from an Iranian speed boat with a light cannon or rocket launcher fitted... and how many exactly are they making.... show us the figures to back up your claim.

    China is building fast because all its old stuff is totally obsolete and as they expand economically they will need to expand their influence which means they need a navy to give them a global power base, but having lots of ships just means lots of targets against a capable enemy... it is cheaper for Russia to build anti ship missiles and MiG-31s and later MiG-41s than to try to match China and NATO in ship production... WTF would they do with 20 destroyers right now anyway?

    The operational costs would use up their naval budget to provide a capability they really don't need right now.

    They have a plan and they are following the plan.
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 4868
    Points : 4856
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 45
    Location : Merkelland

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Hole Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:51 pm

    Besides that 1 frigate Russia also build some corvettes (small missile ships, patrol ships and coastal guard ships in russian slang), nuclear powered subs with ICBM´s and ALCM´s, conventional subs and some auxiliary ships.

    China needs a big navy because it is totaly dependend on the inflow of resources from Australia, South America, Middle East and Africa. Without a big Navy (and Russia) it would go the same way as Japan in a war.
    avatar
    walle83


    Posts : 571
    Points : 581
    Join date : 2016-11-13
    Location : Sweden

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  walle83 Sat Jan 25, 2020 8:57 pm

    Whatever need Russia have today they still are far behind in production. By now 12 new frigates should have been deliverd to the navy and so far they recived 4?
    Also the Steregushchiy corvette is supose to be produced in 24-30 ships, since 2006, 14 years ago, they deliverd 6 vessels.
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5044
    Points : 5068
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:17 am

    walle83 wrote:Whatever need Russia have today they still are far behind in production. By now 12 new frigates should have been deliverd to the navy and so far they recived 4?
    Also the Steregushchiy corvette is supose to be produced in 24-30 ships, since 2006, 14 years ago, they deliverd 6 vessels.

    Only partially correct. Numbers are true but the not mentioning the whole story behind that process leads to wrong conclusions. since 90 you have 25-30 years of non (in best case under) funding. You need to rebuild the whole USSR network of cooperation only within Russia. There are no Ukrainian turbines or missiles or electronics only Soviet designs which were produced in current Ukraine.


    Timing of Us aggression in Ukraine is not really coincidental to Russian army/navy modernization efforts.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31475
    Points : 32005
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 26, 2020 2:04 am

    So lets say they were ahead of everybody by the same margin that you are suggesting they are behind... it would be rather expensive to generate that sort of production tempo... and by now they would probably have most of the ships they need along with a lot of older ships they would now need to retire and scrap... which also costs money...

    But tell me what difference would it make to have all these new ships?

    What are they going to be doing with all these new ships?

    Apart from costing them a few tens of billions of dollars from their budget which means taking funding from other areas, what would be the benefit of having 24 Gorshkov frigates right now?

    Also there is the factor that after making a few frigates they have decided to expand the design and improve its performance... so the first four might be the old design but the next 8 might be a much better more effective and potent design... if they were blindly pumping them out to get numbers they would have 12 of the older ships, but this way they get 8 better designs... there is no urgency... they have plans in place that all needs to be funded and possible... there is no point in producing 24 Corvettes if it means you have no capacity to build icebreakers which you also want...

    Timing of Us aggression in Ukraine is not really coincidental to Russian army/navy modernization efforts.

    Another important factor is that the west has actively sought to impose measures to limit Russian military and economic growth, so enormous funding in ship production is pointless... if they are only ever going to make 24 corvettes of a particular type then you don't get lots of shipyards to pump them out as fast as they can because when they are done there are no more and those shipyards will suddenly become idle. It is a feast famine model that is destructive to industry. Instead a more planned approach where they make corvettes but also make other ship types as well with a long term programme to keep them consistently working.

    The expansion of the Chinese navy is impressive... but lets be honest it was shit and needed upgrades and replacements fairly urgently considering it is facing Japan and the US Navy...
    Hole
    Hole


    Posts : 4868
    Points : 4856
    Join date : 2018-03-24
    Age : 45
    Location : Merkelland

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Hole Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:15 am

    And the construction program keeps a lot of chinese people at work.
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31475
    Points : 32005
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:18 pm

    Indeed... both the build the ships and to man them.

    Universal long as the missile is compatible with the hardware and software.

    You cannot have a one size fits all VLS tube.

    Of course you can... if you design the tube first and then design all the missiles that will go in to it to fit the tube, in this case the UKSK tube was supposed to carry all anti ship and anti sub missiles that they had... most of which were 533mm calibre because they were designed to be launched from torpedo tubes, but the evolutions of the Granit and Moskit... the Onyx.. is 750mm calibre so the UKSK tubes could load 750mm missiles and 533mm calibre weapons too.

    Then they decided they wanted to make it fully universal to carry SAMS as well which will ultimately include the S-500 and everything smaller.

    We don't know how big the S-500 is... but they do. If it is less than 750mm then the UKSK-M might not be bigger than the UKSK at all, but it might be.

    If they make it slightly bigger they might find they can radically increase the number of some types of missiles it can carry... for instance making it a 1.2m tube might mean four 533mm weapons per tube, one S-500, one Onyx/Zircon... but four S-400 big missiles and 8 9M96 missiles per tube and 16 9m100 missiles.

    More importantly with a bigger tube they can scale up their weapons to suit the launcher... the current Kalibr missile is intended for torpedo tubes so it is a 533mm calibre weapon. Even with the current UKSK launcher they could make it a metre or two longer and scale its width up to 750mm for an enormous increase in internal volume extending range to 5,000km or more.

    A 1.2m tube in a UKSK-M means they can scale the Onyx missile up and make it bigger with more fuel etc, while the Zircon could be made bigger too...

    This means they could have three different versions of each weapon... the biggest 1.2m diameter longest range models for the UKSK-M launcher that is fitted to all ships destroyer sized and bigger... a 750mm diameter version for UKSK launchers on Corvettes and Frigates and some vessels that don't need extra long range weapons like icebreakers and helicopter carriers that will mostly be used for SAMs, and some 533mm models for torpedo tube launch...

    New weapons can be designed to fit these launch tubes...
    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


    Posts : 5044
    Points : 5068
    Join date : 2015-05-17
    Location : fishin on Stalin´s Strait between Mexico and Canada

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GunshipDemocracy Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:28 am

    GarryB wrote:

    Of course you can... if you design the tube first and then design all the missiles that will go in to it to fit the tube, in this case the UKSK tube was supposed to carry all anti ship and anti sub missiles that they had... most of which were 533mm calibre because they were designed to be launched from torpedo tubes, but the evolutions of the Granit and Moskit... the Onyx.. is 750mm calibre so the UKSK tubes could load 750mm missiles and 533mm calibre weapons too.



    Onix diameter is actually 670mm. But we dont know how large is Kalibr-M and Zircon yet. But since they were designed to UKSK-M I guess there will be no problemos
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31475
    Points : 32005
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:33 am

    The point is that when Onyx was designed it was intended to be carried in UKSK launch tubes... UKSK launch tubes were designed around them because they were the longest and widest load they intended to carry in those tubes... other missiles fit with lots of excess space so enlarged versions of those missiles could be developed with improved performance to fill out the tubes more efficiently.

    It is like the S-300 on land... the missiles were a physical size... when they developed the large S-400 missiles they made them the same size but improved their performance... the two smaller S-400s... known now as S-350 were designed to be used on launchers designed for S-400/S-300 where four missiles were designed to fit in to each S-300/400 tube... that wasn't some accident... it was by design... and four 9M100 missiles fitting into the place of one S-350 missile is not a mistake either... it means you can have S-400 launchers that can carry 9M96 missiles or 9M100 missiles if it is expected the enemy might try to overwhelm the battery with numbers. It also means that you can have S-350 launchers that can also carry the smaller missiles too, and for naval systems you can have launchers compatible with all three missile sizes (calibres).

    So while fitting 6 UKSK-M launchers to a helicopter carrier might sound a bit silly... if those tubes can carry anti sub missiles that could also be used against incoming torpedoes and also carry SAMs then it actually makes a lot of sense... if you were going out to attack a US carrier group you would not take a helicopter carrier... helicopter carriers are versatile and UKSK-M launchers are versatile too...

    We have seen tiny corvettes use land attack cruise missiles hit land based targets in Syria from thousands of kms away... if some long range platform like container could detect a few F-35s flying around the projected flight route of the missiles that corvette... with UKSK-M launch tubes could also launch a 400km range S-400 to deal with them using data from a radar system thousands of kms away...
    jhelb
    jhelb


    Posts : 993
    Points : 1100
    Join date : 2015-04-04
    Location : Previously: Belarus Currently: A Small Island No One Cares About

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  jhelb Tue Jan 28, 2020 4:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:The point is that when Onyx was designed it was intended to be carried in UKSK launch tubes... UKSK launch tubes were designed around them because they were the longest and widest load they intended to carry in those tubes... other missiles fit with lots of excess space so enlarged versions of those missiles could be developed with improved performance to fill out the tubes more efficiently.

    Attended a recent seminar in Brussels where MBDA gave a presentation on ship based SR-SAM Sea Ceptor. https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/sea-ceptor/

    They said their soft launch mechanism for the Sea Ceptor that propels the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile (CAMM) missile out of its cannister and well into the air before the rocket motor triggers — a quality that reduces system mass, eases installation and simply makes firing the missile an affair that doesn’t the deck baked or swathed in smoke. This particular soft launch mechanism is unique, isn't it?

    I hope Russian Navy comes up with a similar system for their ship based SAMs.
    ultimatewarrior
    ultimatewarrior


    Posts : 819
    Points : 825
    Join date : 2016-09-19
    Location : Waterloo, Ontario, Canada

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  ultimatewarrior Tue Jan 28, 2020 5:10 pm

    Will the second ship be commissioned this year?
    avatar
    kumbor


    Posts : 303
    Points : 297
    Join date : 2017-06-09

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  kumbor Tue Jan 28, 2020 9:52 pm

    ultimatewarrior wrote:Will the second ship be commissioned this year?

    Read the topic, please, SIt down, I give you 2 - in Russia it is "unsatisfactory", corresponding to C or even D, or 0.
    avatar
    hoom


    Posts : 2318
    Points : 2308
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  hoom Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:17 am

    I hope Russian Navy comes up with a similar system for their ship based SAMs.
    The Soviet Union invented cold launch  unshaven

    Soviet era:
    Naval S-300 is on the Kirov & Slava classes (launches from 1:08)


    Kinzhal (naval Tor) is on Kirov, Kuznetsov, Udaloy & Neustrashimy classes. Edit: were also on Kiev class.
    (Its a bit hard to find footage of them, couple of launches at 1:00)


    Modern Tor temp mounted on a 11356 for tests, a properly navalised version may be being seen on modernised ships/new designs



    On recent ships:
    Shtil-1 (naval Buk-M3) on 11356


    9M96 (naval S-350) on 20380, 22350, 20385, 20386, probably on upgraded Nakhimov
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8168
    Points : 8152
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Isos Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:50 am

    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    14h
    Severnaya Verf's General Director Igor Ponomarev said the first Project 22350 Admiral Gorshkov-class frigate with Russian-made engines, the Admiral Golovko, will be launched before July
    avatar
    ult


    Posts : 809
    Points : 849
    Join date : 2015-02-20

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  ult Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:32 am

    Probably two more 22350s with 24 cells will be laid down in 2020.

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C3/
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


    Posts : 1495
    Points : 1483
    Join date : 2015-12-30
    Location : Merkelland

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:00 pm

    ult wrote:Probably two more 22350s with 24 cells will be laid down in 2020.

    https://flotprom.ru/2020/%D0%A1%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F%D0%92%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%84%D1%8C3/

    Sensible decision.

    Now let's see how the reduction gearbox built by Zvezda will perform in the tests.

    That was probably the biggest obstacle, since Saturn already built and tested the gas turbines.
    Isos
    Isos


    Posts : 8168
    Points : 8152
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Isos Thu Feb 27, 2020 8:13 am

    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    2h
    Two Northwestern Federal District sources tell TASS that the Admiral Gorshkov frigate test launched a hypersonic Tsikron missile in early January from the Barents Sea at a ground target more than 500 km away in a training ground in the Northern Urals.
    avatar
    Arrow


    Posts : 1066
    Points : 1064
    Join date : 2012-02-12

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Arrow Thu Feb 27, 2020 11:03 am

    And still no test photos. Tsikron is more mysterious than Burevestnik cry
    GarryB
    GarryB


    Posts : 31475
    Points : 32005
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  GarryB Fri Feb 28, 2020 4:42 am

    I doubt they will be in any hurry to reveal its shape... especially its front and its main air intake because such information is what the US is currently scrambling to try to work out for their own designs... why help them for free?
    George1
    George1


    Posts : 16877
    Points : 17384
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  George1 Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:47 pm

    The Severnaya Shipyard in St. Petersburg in northwestern Russia (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) will lay down an additional series of Project 22350 frigates for the Russian Navy, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko announced on Thursday.

    The defense official declined to specify the number of ships planned for keel-laying under Project 22350

    https://tass.com/defense/1129411
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon


    Posts : 11656
    Points : 11724
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  PapaDragon Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:18 pm

    George1 wrote:The Severnaya Shipyard in St. Petersburg in northwestern Russia (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) will lay down an additional series of Project 22350 frigates for the Russian Navy, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko announced on Thursday.

    The defense official declined to specify the number of ships planned for keel-laying under Project 22350

    https://tass.com/defense/1129411

    He is probably referring to 2 ships that were rumored since new year but who knows, they may be more

    This would be second year in a row that 2 Gorshkovs will start construction simultaneously, might be sign of positive developments becoming the norm


    avatar
    william.boutros


    Posts : 144
    Points : 146
    Join date : 2015-08-13

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  william.boutros Fri Mar 13, 2020 2:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:The Severnaya Shipyard in St. Petersburg in northwestern Russia (part of the United Shipbuilding Corporation) will lay down an additional series of Project 22350 frigates for the Russian Navy, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko announced on Thursday.

    The defense official declined to specify the number of ships planned for keel-laying under Project 22350

    https://tass.com/defense/1129411

    He is probably referring to 2 ships that were rumored since new year but who knows, they may be more

    This would be second year in a row that 2 Gorshkovs will start construction simultaneously, might be sign of positive developments becoming the norm



    They really need to press on with the M version of these ships and to unify their ships!

    Sponsored content


    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 18 Empty Re: Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Tue Nov 30, 2021 3:25 pm