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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:51 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    I would not say Iran is friendly with Russia... they are not buddies or allies.

    Friend or foe system is just what it is. Iran is obviously not a foe, then it is ...?

    GarryB wrote:
    A map centred at the Caspian Sea you have the Caspian sea countries... Russia, Azerbaijan, Iran, Turkmenistan, and Kazakhstan.

    And all of them are good neighbours and partners to Russia. Starting from the beginning, how the Caspian claims of all of them have been solved several years ago.

    GarryB wrote:
    From Russian access to the Caspian Sea you would have to invade Iran and Iraq to get to Syria to then reach the Med...

    Are you obsessed with invasion somehow, Garry ?  Shocked
    Can't they simple transport goods, like any other country is doing?

    GarryB wrote:
    Also the northern Med is the HATO organisation that has rather more ships than Africa and they are all hostile to Russian presence in what they will see as their backyard... but to get there you would need to go via the Black Sea... which can't include aircraft carriers.

    Greece is a friendly country.
    Cyprus is a friendly country.
    Turkey is turning into at least neutral.
    Italy is neutral.
    The only hostile place in the Med basin would be occupied Gibraltar. Let's see how long it remain to be under occupation, shall we?
    I am not sure if you are getting the European things from a proper perspective, my friend.
    Only Brits, Poles, 404s and this small Baltic plankton are anti-Russian.

    GarryB wrote:
    They could cover the Med with Tu-22M3s in Syria and a few frigates in Tartus...

    Sure they can. So is it an argument pushing a giant navy agenda, or against that ?

    GarryB wrote:
    And those are countries Russia will trade with and hopefully grow and develop their economies as well as Russia, but there is enormous potential to cut Russian access even to those regions... Erdogan is not going to be there foreever and his replacement might be a US tool.

    Of course.
    And both of us might die today.
    What is the point to worry about the things you don't have any influence?
    You think that Murica will implement some kind of ocean embargo on Russia ? Who gives a f*k? A country that connects the whole of Europe with Asia via land routes and railways ? How can they block a sea trade by Russia, who owns a NSR? What can they do against a sea route that runs in the exclusive economic zone of Russia, that starts at the Chinese border and ends up in Norway ? A country that has no guts to stop an Iranian tanker on route to Venezuela, will play goofy with a nuclear superpower? That can shadow a sea route all way long with its nuclear SSGNs ? Really Laughing  ?

    GarryB wrote:
    Not in the slightest... most Americans probably think Putin is a CZAR and was appointed by Yeltsin and no voting has taken place over the last 21 years.

    Who cares the opinion of the people who believe in angels?  dunno

    GarryB wrote:
    Had that advice before... Russia does not need an army or navy or air force, and it does not need to make anything... you have oil and gas so just sell that and use that money to buy everything you need.

    Not sure who gave you that advice, but it was not me  dunno

    GarryB wrote:
    Till oil prices collapse during attempts to damage the Russian economy.

    The same collapse turned off the light for whole cracking business out there in Murica. Plus oil rigs in Scotland, Norway and all the friends they had. Including almost killing of Saudi Arabia and other satrapies in the Gulf they invested in for decades.
    Are you sure that that was the plan?

    GarryB wrote:
    The west wants Russia to isolate itself and remain within its land borders so they can make easy money being an intermediary selling stuff on in both directions, and handling all the shipping trade.

    There is hardly a thing called "west" in this terms buddy.
    For the last 10 years, we have seen an increasing trade war between the US and EU. Now it turned quiet, as US boiled the water in the EU bringing migrant stuff on the table, so the EU has other things to worry about.
    But the Obama times were a pure example of trade wars, with fiscal and financial punishments being put on competitive enterprises on both sides of the Atlantic.
    "West" my ass  Laughing

    GarryB wrote:
    As their oil and gas tanker fleet expand however they will need more ships to support them in the dangerous places of the world.

    And this is a thing they are doing.

    GarryB wrote:
    Yup. A couple of different Corvette types are going ahead because Corvettes are not big enough to be really fully multirole so different conditions in five different fleets means you might need this type of corvette here and here but this other one would be more use here and here... so a couple of different Corvette types should be built, but frigates are big enough to be fully multirole so make one, get it working and then make some... use the design to work out an efficient scale up to make a destroyer sized boat and then a cruiser sized boat and just make them.

    20380 series is fully capable of patrolling sea routes. They have almost 30 of them, both in line and under construction.
    Hell, 22160 was made just for that purpose - inexpensive long-distance patrols. It has longer endurance than 22350.
    They have 6 pcs of 11356, both in line and construction (once the engine problem is over).
    22350 is running stable for years now.
    They are to start 22350M soon.
    LHDs, subs ... and still you want them to construct more?
    It is insane.
    Sure, they are way more effective than Muricans, but obvious things are obvious.
    You can not afford a 50 destroyers fleet with 6th the world economy. You can not afford a 12 cruisers fleet.
    Actually, the fact that they still have 3rd biggest fleet on the planet, and expanding it both in numbers and technical capibilities, is proof of outstanding management skills.
    To put things with a proper perspective: we talk about a 300 vessels fleet. That is 4x the size of Royal Navy, 3x the size of Marine Nationale, 5x the size of Kriegsmarine.
    Still not impressed, right? dunno

    GarryB wrote:
    And yet they continue to try by destroying the economies of countries on a whim that try to trade with Russia.
    Russia needs a method of defending its trade access that does not require the use of nuclear weapons.

    You are witnessing this right now, with Russian gas and oil potential, especially NS2.
    Is Russia capable of defending its export, in both a political and military manner?
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:25 pm

    Corvettes are good but cannot do long range patrolling.
    2 years ago the first 22350 frigates did it (but it was followed all the time by support and replenishment ships).

    Russia needs at least some 22350M to replace the Slava and Udaloys and Sovremmenny class being retired or close to the end of their lives.

    I really like a lot Slava class cruisers, but they are almost
    40 years old and a full modernisation is not anymore cost effective for them, so they will be kept in service another 10 years receiving probably only minor repairs.
    Udaloyss are being currently modernised and will last probably another decade as long range oversized frigates, but a modern ship of the same size (e.g 22350M) can be much more capable.

    Every time the admiral kutsnetov went on a trip they had basically to put together a carrier group composed by most of the long range surface ship available (e.g, not in repair or overhaul) from both the northern and Pacific fleet.

    Now Russia is building two large helicopter carriers/amphibious ships and those also need an escort.

    Furthermore, apparently Russia, without trying to emulate US with their naval operations, will be interested in doing some long range patrolling and some show the flag exercises.

    Thus, I believe that before 2025 they will need to start at least building some 22350M, and that they will also build at least 12 "basic" 22350"

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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:26 pm

    That was the purpose of creating 22160s.
    It has very long endurance and can be equipped according to the assigned mission.
    Although I don't buy a "modular" or "container" concept, those ships can be very useful. The question is, is it a stopgap, or they will follow the concept. IDK dunno
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    Post  lancelot Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:24 pm

    The problem is converting these hulls with the slanted side launchers to VLS is so cumbersome you might as well not do it.
    Most of the space in the center is typically filled with superstructures you cannot easily modify.
    What are they going to do? Replace the slanted side launchers with the Kh-35 Uran? It does not make any sense.
    Particularly in ships like the Slava-class where the missiles have much different specs.
    Supposedly there are slanted versions of the U-VLS but in practice they are not used.

    Then there is the fact these ships often use engines produced in Ukraine during Soviet times. This is a maintenance nightmare waiting to happen.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:25 pm

    ALAMO wrote:That was the purpose of creating 22160s.
    It has very long endurance and can be equipped according to the assigned mission.
    Although I don't buy a "modular" or "container" concept, those ships can be very useful. The question is, is it a stopgap, or they will follow the concept. IDK dunno
    my understanding is that 22160 are for minor operations such antipirating or similar.
    They cannot provide the same level of long range air defence capabilities to other ship as a multipurpose large frigate/destroyer can do. And even if they can swap modules to have different capabilities, it cannot do everything at the same time.

    22160 are decent patrol ships, and are useful since they free more important ships from menial tasks (a few years ago even Peter the Great was used in antipirating operation since it was the only long range ship available at that time, and usually Udaloys were used for it) but they are not a replacement for destroyers or frigates.



    Last edited by Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:39 pm

    ALAMO wrote:That was the purpose of creating 22160s.
    It has very long endurance and can be equipped according to the assigned mission.
    Although I don't buy a "modular" or "container" concept, those ships can be very useful. The question is, is it a stopgap, or they will follow the concept. IDK dunno

    Correct

    22160 Bykov is designed to be present far away as a tripwire

    They would either deal with some idiots in speedboats or something that would require nuclear option from mainland, there is no middle ground so no need for any extra firepower

    Endurance and range is everything

    Containers are there as a bonus sales pitch plus in standard war they would be used as additional missile carriers to supplement Buyans and Karakurts, no harm in having extra 8 pack of Kalibrs on standby


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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:27 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    22160 are decent patrol ships, and are useful since they free more important ships from menial tasks (a few years ago even Peter the Great was used in antipirating operation since it was the only long range ship available at that time, and usually Udaloys were used for it) but they are not a replacement for destroyers or frigates.


    Sure they can't.
    But sometimes I get an impression, that you folks go on war or something.
    More of this, more of that, plenty of everything!
    I will repeat.
    Russia is an extremely wide country, with a huge coastline, and a dozen or so basins along its borders.
    It is simply unable to create the force you are trying to put on them. No fucking way.
    With hostile Anglosaxons on their tail, they must operate smarter and more effectively than the others.
    There is an excellent observation, that what they are doing right now, is an inexpensive effort to make an ocean-going capable fleet, that will last for a decade or so.
    This is a time they need.
    They will use a modernized 1155 for that, which is still an excellent platform.
    1164s will be used to show a flag until they physically die.
    1144s will be modified extensively because it is another sort of a beast.
    Do you know what is a real difference for Orlans?
    Hulks of theirs.
    Those are made of very special steel alloy, calculated for decades of operation.
    Can't remember the industrial code of that, but I will try to find it.
    It is a masterpiece of metallurgy.
    It is almost the same situation as with 945 titanium subs. Those can last forever, so as the onboard equipment gets smaller and smaller with technological progress, it makes it possible to keep them in being forever.
    To have a sub division capable to submerge down to 800m, that makes an operational difference ...
    They ceased to make stupid attempts to modify 956s, as this is a dead horse, with unstable and problematic boilers.
    That all makes sense. Common sense.
    As long as you are not a Russian fanboy, in opposite.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:56 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    22160 are decent patrol ships, and are useful since they free more important ships from menial tasks (a few years ago even Peter the Great was used in antipirating operation since it was the only long range ship available at that time, and usually Udaloys were used for it) but they are not a replacement for destroyers or frigates.


    Sure they can't.
    But sometimes I get an impression, that you folks go on war or something.
    More of this, more of that, plenty of everything!
    I will repeat.
    Russia is an extremely wide country, with a huge coastline, and a dozen or so basins along its borders.
    It is simply unable to create the force you are trying to put on them. No fucking way.
    With hostile Anglosaxons on their tail, they must operate smarter and more effectively than the others.
    There is an excellent observation, that what they are doing right now, is an inexpensive effort to make an ocean-going capable fleet, that will last for a decade or so.
    This is a time they need.
    They will use a modernized 1155 for that, which is still an excellent platform.
    1164s will be used to show a flag until they physically die.
    1144s will be modified extensively because it is another sort of a beast.
    Do you know what is a real difference for Orlans?
    Hulks of theirs.
    Those are made of very special steel alloy, calculated for decades of operation.
    Can't remember the industrial code of that, but I will try to find it.
    It is a masterpiece of metallurgy.
    It is almost the same situation as with 945 titanium subs. Those can last forever, so as the onboard equipment gets smaller and smaller with technological progress, it makes it possible to keep them in being forever.
    To have a sub division capable to submerge down to 800m, that makes an operational difference ...
    They ceased to make stupid attempts to modify 956s, as this is a dead horse, with unstable and problematic boilers.
    That all makes sense. Common sense.
    As long as you are not a Russian fanboy, in opposite.

    I agree with you with 945 submarines, I really love them, hopefully they will modernise also the barracudas (Sierra 1)

    As far as Orlans, my understanding is that they will keep only two hulls, admiral Nakhimov and Peter the Great, so they cannot be always available at the same time.

    I did not say they need 30 destroyers, but they probably need to build a few 22350M, they cannot modernise forever old ships, and maybe some could even be proposed for export to Egypt or other customers
    Dorfmeister
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    Post  Dorfmeister Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:30 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Those are made of very special steel alloy, calculated for decades of operation.
    Can't remember the industrial code of that, but I will try to find it.
    It is a masterpiece of metallurgy.

    AK-25/AK-27 steel alloy for the hull.

    The main problem with the Orlan/Atlant comes from the AMg6 alloy used for the superstructures.

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    Post  Lurk83 Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:03 am

    Russian Navy’s Project 22350 Frigates To Be Equipped With Russian-Made Engines

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/06/russian-navys-project-22350-frigates-to-be-equipped-with-russian-made-engines/

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    Post  Lurk83 Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:04 am

    Development Of Future Russian Navy’s Project 22350M Frigate Is Underway

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/06/development-of-future-russian-navys-project-22350m-frigate-is-underway/

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    Post  ChineseTiger Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:47 pm

    I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.
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    Post  lancelot Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:54 pm

    ChineseTiger wrote:I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.

    I doubt they will need new engines. Four of the largest engines on the Admiral Golovko (M90FR) should be more than enough.

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    Post  ChineseTiger Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:58 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    ChineseTiger wrote:I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.

    I doubt they will need new engines. Four of the largest engines on the Admiral Golovko (M90FR) should be more than enough.

    If they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by 2035 to replace 1980s Sovremenny and Udaloy I will be happy.
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    Post  Mir Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:45 pm

    ChineseTiger wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    ChineseTiger wrote:I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.

    I doubt they will need new engines. Four of the largest engines on the Admiral Golovko (M90FR) should be more than enough.

    If they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by 2035 to replace 1980s Sovremenny and Udaloy I will be happy.

    I don't think it will take that long. Most of the groundwork is already done as it is basically a stretched version of an existing design. A couple should be in the water by then.
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    Post  ChineseTiger Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:27 pm

    Mir wrote:
    ChineseTiger wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    ChineseTiger wrote:I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.

    I doubt they will need new engines. Four of the largest engines on the Admiral Golovko (M90FR) should be more than enough.

    If they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by 2035 to replace 1980s Sovremenny and Udaloy I will be happy.

    I don't think it will take that long. Most of the groundwork is already done as it is basically a stretched version of an existing design. A couple should be in the water by then.  

    There's only 1 shipyard that can build Gorshkov frigate / destroyer. Currently there are still 10 more Gorshkov frigates that need to be built. Assuming if they can build 1 per year that still takes 2031 the earliest year they can lay down first Gorshkov destroyer. Realistically I expect first Gorshkov destroyer can be laid down around 2035 because building 1 Gorshkov frigate per year would take operation warp speed.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:03 am

    ChineseTiger wrote:If they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by 2035 to replace 1980s Sovremenny and Udaloy I will be happy.

    15 years to lay down the first destroyer?  GTF outta here.  It will be less than half that, less again for the first 22350M.

    You ever considered changing your handle to ChineseTroll?
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:38 am

    If they do want to take that long with the destroyer I would expect it would be a hybrid combined nuclear and electric drive ship, but as mentioned by some I would expect it will be made sooner and will likely use nuke propulsion to make it more independent and able to operate away from Russian waters for longer periods.
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    Post  Mir Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:13 am

    ChineseTiger wrote:There's only 1 shipyard that can build Gorshkov frigate / destroyer. Currently there are still 10 more Gorshkov frigates that need to be built. Assuming if they can build 1 per year that still takes 2031 the earliest year they can lay down first Gorshkov destroyer. Realistically I expect first Gorshkov destroyer can be laid down around 2035 because building 1 Gorshkov frigate per year would take operation warp speed.

    I am pretty confident that these ships in all it's variants will be sourced to other yards as well. The huge Zvezda yard comes to mind as an example. Most problems have been sorted by now so production should increase and I am sure it will.

    I must admit that the Chinese ship building industry is second to none and I am in awe of how they managed to turn their Navy from basically junk into a formidable Blue Water Navy in double quick time! Naturally with a little help from their Russian partners as well Wink

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    Post  lancelot Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:40 am

    Mir wrote:I am pretty confident that these ships in all it's variants will be sourced to other yards as well. The huge Zvezda yard comes to mind as an example. Most problems have been sorted by now so production should increase and I am sure it will.

    I doubt Zvezda will be used for military orders any time soon. It has a huge civilian order backlog.

    Could they not use some of the shipyards they use for corvettes? The frigate is not particularly large.
    If they need a production facility close to the Pacific, the Amur shipyard used to produce submarines which are larger than the frigate.
    If you look at the latest corvettes they built after they were acquired by United Shipbuilding Corporation, they seem to have finally gotten their act together.

    Other than that there are the sites which previously used to build the Krivak frigates. Those should have dry docks large enough for frigates.
    I cannot see the destroyers being built anywhere other than St. Petersburg to be honest.

    The problem to me at this moment does not seem to be shipyards or shipyard capacity but the component manufacturing rate.
    Production of the engines and reduction gear are well known issues, but there might be other bottlenecks in manufacturing as well.

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    Post  Mir Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:03 am

    Yes - I'm thinking a little bit towards the future when all those huge tankers would be completed. With all that available space they could then easily start producing military hardware, and in fairly rapid rate as well.
    I'm sure other smaller yards may well be contracted - yes.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:16 am

    So you are talking about so distant future, that there is no point to consider it Very Happy
    This yard will be booked up to the nose for the next decade. Some of the projects will be allocated only when they will be running at full capacity, so expect an increased stream of contracts.

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    Post  Mir Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:39 am

    Well I will still consider it - especially towards the late 20's which is not that far into the future.
    The yard is also nuclear capable - but we'll see Wink Laughing
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    Post  Lurk83 Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:45 pm

    ALAMO wrote:So you are talking about so distant future, that there is no point to consider it Very Happy
    This yard will be booked up to the nose for the next decade. Some of the projects will be allocated only when they will be running at full capacity, so expect an increased stream of contracts.

    Shouldve taken Nikolaev while they had the chance. They'd have had 7 years to rebuild it already. Cest La vie
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    Post  Mir Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:39 pm

    That would have been nice yes! Laughing

    They do have the Zaliv yard which can build anything from corvettes to cruisers. Currently working on the Project 23900's so there is lots of potential there.
    Also the yard in Feodosiya where they are building a few corvettes. I wonder if they will actually continue building the Zubr's? That would be great!

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