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    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:39 pm

    ALAMO wrote:That was the purpose of creating 22160s.
    It has very long endurance and can be equipped according to the assigned mission.
    Although I don't buy a "modular" or "container" concept, those ships can be very useful. The question is, is it a stopgap, or they will follow the concept. IDK dunno

    Correct

    22160 Bykov is designed to be present far away as a tripwire

    They would either deal with some idiots in speedboats or something that would require nuclear option from mainland, there is no middle ground so no need for any extra firepower

    Endurance and range is everything

    Containers are there as a bonus sales pitch plus in standard war they would be used as additional missile carriers to supplement Buyans and Karakurts, no harm in having extra 8 pack of Kalibrs on standby


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    Post  ALAMO Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:27 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    22160 are decent patrol ships, and are useful since they free more important ships from menial tasks (a few years ago even Peter the Great was used in antipirating operation since it was the only long range ship available at that time, and usually Udaloys were used for it) but they are not a replacement for destroyers or frigates.


    Sure they can't.
    But sometimes I get an impression, that you folks go on war or something.
    More of this, more of that, plenty of everything!
    I will repeat.
    Russia is an extremely wide country, with a huge coastline, and a dozen or so basins along its borders.
    It is simply unable to create the force you are trying to put on them. No fucking way.
    With hostile Anglosaxons on their tail, they must operate smarter and more effectively than the others.
    There is an excellent observation, that what they are doing right now, is an inexpensive effort to make an ocean-going capable fleet, that will last for a decade or so.
    This is a time they need.
    They will use a modernized 1155 for that, which is still an excellent platform.
    1164s will be used to show a flag until they physically die.
    1144s will be modified extensively because it is another sort of a beast.
    Do you know what is a real difference for Orlans?
    Hulks of theirs.
    Those are made of very special steel alloy, calculated for decades of operation.
    Can't remember the industrial code of that, but I will try to find it.
    It is a masterpiece of metallurgy.
    It is almost the same situation as with 945 titanium subs. Those can last forever, so as the onboard equipment gets smaller and smaller with technological progress, it makes it possible to keep them in being forever.
    To have a sub division capable to submerge down to 800m, that makes an operational difference ...
    They ceased to make stupid attempts to modify 956s, as this is a dead horse, with unstable and problematic boilers.
    That all makes sense. Common sense.
    As long as you are not a Russian fanboy, in opposite.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:56 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    22160 are decent patrol ships, and are useful since they free more important ships from menial tasks (a few years ago even Peter the Great was used in antipirating operation since it was the only long range ship available at that time, and usually Udaloys were used for it) but they are not a replacement for destroyers or frigates.


    Sure they can't.
    But sometimes I get an impression, that you folks go on war or something.
    More of this, more of that, plenty of everything!
    I will repeat.
    Russia is an extremely wide country, with a huge coastline, and a dozen or so basins along its borders.
    It is simply unable to create the force you are trying to put on them. No fucking way.
    With hostile Anglosaxons on their tail, they must operate smarter and more effectively than the others.
    There is an excellent observation, that what they are doing right now, is an inexpensive effort to make an ocean-going capable fleet, that will last for a decade or so.
    This is a time they need.
    They will use a modernized 1155 for that, which is still an excellent platform.
    1164s will be used to show a flag until they physically die.
    1144s will be modified extensively because it is another sort of a beast.
    Do you know what is a real difference for Orlans?
    Hulks of theirs.
    Those are made of very special steel alloy, calculated for decades of operation.
    Can't remember the industrial code of that, but I will try to find it.
    It is a masterpiece of metallurgy.
    It is almost the same situation as with 945 titanium subs. Those can last forever, so as the onboard equipment gets smaller and smaller with technological progress, it makes it possible to keep them in being forever.
    To have a sub division capable to submerge down to 800m, that makes an operational difference ...
    They ceased to make stupid attempts to modify 956s, as this is a dead horse, with unstable and problematic boilers.
    That all makes sense. Common sense.
    As long as you are not a Russian fanboy, in opposite.

    I agree with you with 945 submarines, I really love them, hopefully they will modernise also the barracudas (Sierra 1)

    As far as Orlans, my understanding is that they will keep only two hulls, admiral Nakhimov and Peter the Great, so they cannot be always available at the same time.

    I did not say they need 30 destroyers, but they probably need to build a few 22350M, they cannot modernise forever old ships, and maybe some could even be proposed for export to Egypt or other customers
    Dorfmeister
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    Post  Dorfmeister Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:30 pm

    ALAMO wrote:Those are made of very special steel alloy, calculated for decades of operation.
    Can't remember the industrial code of that, but I will try to find it.
    It is a masterpiece of metallurgy.

    AK-25/AK-27 steel alloy for the hull.

    The main problem with the Orlan/Atlant comes from the AMg6 alloy used for the superstructures.

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    Post  Lurk83 Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:03 am

    Russian Navy’s Project 22350 Frigates To Be Equipped With Russian-Made Engines

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/06/russian-navys-project-22350-frigates-to-be-equipped-with-russian-made-engines/

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    Post  Lurk83 Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:04 am

    Development Of Future Russian Navy’s Project 22350M Frigate Is Underway

    https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2021/06/development-of-future-russian-navys-project-22350m-frigate-is-underway/

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    Post  ChineseTiger Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:47 pm

    I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.
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    Post  lancelot Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:54 pm

    ChineseTiger wrote:I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.

    I doubt they will need new engines. Four of the largest engines on the Admiral Golovko (M90FR) should be more than enough.

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    Post  ChineseTiger Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:58 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    ChineseTiger wrote:I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.

    I doubt they will need new engines. Four of the largest engines on the Admiral Golovko (M90FR) should be more than enough.

    If they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by 2035 to replace 1980s Sovremenny and Udaloy I will be happy.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:45 pm

    ChineseTiger wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    ChineseTiger wrote:I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.

    I doubt they will need new engines. Four of the largest engines on the Admiral Golovko (M90FR) should be more than enough.

    If they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by 2035 to replace 1980s Sovremenny and Udaloy I will be happy.

    I don't think it will take that long. Most of the groundwork is already done as it is basically a stretched version of an existing design. A couple should be in the water by then.
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    Post  ChineseTiger Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:27 pm

    Mir wrote:
    ChineseTiger wrote:
    lancelot wrote:
    ChineseTiger wrote:I hope they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by the 2030s once the shipyard has built the Gorshkov frigates. Of course, this also requires the new engines are developed for destroyer.

    I doubt they will need new engines. Four of the largest engines on the Admiral Golovko (M90FR) should be more than enough.

    If they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by 2035 to replace 1980s Sovremenny and Udaloy I will be happy.

    I don't think it will take that long. Most of the groundwork is already done as it is basically a stretched version of an existing design. A couple should be in the water by then.  

    There's only 1 shipyard that can build Gorshkov frigate / destroyer. Currently there are still 10 more Gorshkov frigates that need to be built. Assuming if they can build 1 per year that still takes 2031 the earliest year they can lay down first Gorshkov destroyer. Realistically I expect first Gorshkov destroyer can be laid down around 2035 because building 1 Gorshkov frigate per year would take operation warp speed.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:03 am

    ChineseTiger wrote:If they can lay down the first Gorshkov destroyer by 2035 to replace 1980s Sovremenny and Udaloy I will be happy.

    15 years to lay down the first destroyer?  GTF outta here.  It will be less than half that, less again for the first 22350M.

    You ever considered changing your handle to ChineseTroll?
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jun 16, 2021 6:38 am

    If they do want to take that long with the destroyer I would expect it would be a hybrid combined nuclear and electric drive ship, but as mentioned by some I would expect it will be made sooner and will likely use nuke propulsion to make it more independent and able to operate away from Russian waters for longer periods.
    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:13 am

    ChineseTiger wrote:There's only 1 shipyard that can build Gorshkov frigate / destroyer. Currently there are still 10 more Gorshkov frigates that need to be built. Assuming if they can build 1 per year that still takes 2031 the earliest year they can lay down first Gorshkov destroyer. Realistically I expect first Gorshkov destroyer can be laid down around 2035 because building 1 Gorshkov frigate per year would take operation warp speed.

    I am pretty confident that these ships in all it's variants will be sourced to other yards as well. The huge Zvezda yard comes to mind as an example. Most problems have been sorted by now so production should increase and I am sure it will.

    I must admit that the Chinese ship building industry is second to none and I am in awe of how they managed to turn their Navy from basically junk into a formidable Blue Water Navy in double quick time! Naturally with a little help from their Russian partners as well Wink

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    Post  lancelot Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:40 am

    Mir wrote:I am pretty confident that these ships in all it's variants will be sourced to other yards as well. The huge Zvezda yard comes to mind as an example. Most problems have been sorted by now so production should increase and I am sure it will.

    I doubt Zvezda will be used for military orders any time soon. It has a huge civilian order backlog.

    Could they not use some of the shipyards they use for corvettes? The frigate is not particularly large.
    If they need a production facility close to the Pacific, the Amur shipyard used to produce submarines which are larger than the frigate.
    If you look at the latest corvettes they built after they were acquired by United Shipbuilding Corporation, they seem to have finally gotten their act together.

    Other than that there are the sites which previously used to build the Krivak frigates. Those should have dry docks large enough for frigates.
    I cannot see the destroyers being built anywhere other than St. Petersburg to be honest.

    The problem to me at this moment does not seem to be shipyards or shipyard capacity but the component manufacturing rate.
    Production of the engines and reduction gear are well known issues, but there might be other bottlenecks in manufacturing as well.

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    Mir
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    Post  Mir Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:03 am

    Yes - I'm thinking a little bit towards the future when all those huge tankers would be completed. With all that available space they could then easily start producing military hardware, and in fairly rapid rate as well.
    I'm sure other smaller yards may well be contracted - yes.

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    Post  ALAMO Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:16 am

    So you are talking about so distant future, that there is no point to consider it Very Happy
    This yard will be booked up to the nose for the next decade. Some of the projects will be allocated only when they will be running at full capacity, so expect an increased stream of contracts.

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    Post  Mir Wed Jun 16, 2021 11:39 am

    Well I will still consider it - especially towards the late 20's which is not that far into the future.
    The yard is also nuclear capable - but we'll see Wink Laughing
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    Post  Lurk83 Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:45 pm

    ALAMO wrote:So you are talking about so distant future, that there is no point to consider it Very Happy
    This yard will be booked up to the nose for the next decade. Some of the projects will be allocated only when they will be running at full capacity, so expect an increased stream of contracts.

    Shouldve taken Nikolaev while they had the chance. They'd have had 7 years to rebuild it already. Cest La vie
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    Post  Mir Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:39 pm

    That would have been nice yes! Laughing

    They do have the Zaliv yard which can build anything from corvettes to cruisers. Currently working on the Project 23900's so there is lots of potential there.
    Also the yard in Feodosiya where they are building a few corvettes. I wonder if they will actually continue building the Zubr's? That would be great!
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    Post  kvs Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:36 pm

    It is not plausible that no effort is being expended rectifying shipyard bottlenecks in Russia. There was a recent change in Russia's
    maritime law to force Arctic shipping to be done using Russian built ships. There is slack given for foreign production of ship types
    Russia does not build or are currently on order. But this new requirement means that Russian shipyards will be jammed with production.
    As such, there must be provisions for expanding shipyard capacity otherwise there is a zero sum game between civilian and military
    ship construction.

    So if the Russian government is serious about realizing the 22350M, then it will expand production capacity. The media is not reporting
    on such details in a timely fashion. We are probably going to get some reports in 2024 or later on this subject.

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    Post  Mir Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:05 pm

    I took a bit of time this afternoon to have a look at all the Russian naval shipyards and the type of ships they built and are currently building.

    Coming back to Svernaya where the Gorshkovs are being built: I see that a huge 270m boathouse with 2 slipways are currently being constructed, and should be completed next year.

    That added to the existing 4+4 170m slipways would in theory make way for some serious ship building capacity!

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    Post  GarryB Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:21 am

    I must admit that the Chinese ship building industry is second to none and I am in awe of how they managed to turn their Navy from basically junk into a formidable Blue Water Navy in double quick time!

    The transformation has indeed been dramatic, but mostly because they really had no history of being a significant naval power, so the recent mass production has been transformational, but as you allude they didn't do it all on their own... they would have paid for some advice and assistance but where that was not forthcoming they would have just observed and "borrowed" some ideas too... just like most other navies did.

    Of course money alone does not provide military skills and tactics to be a useful force... Saudi Arabia proves that rule too...

    But then I think China just wants to defend its interests and will not be invading Africa or central or south america any time soon.

    I doubt Zvezda will be used for military orders any time soon. It has a huge civilian order backlog.

    Zvezda would only be essential for CVNs... I suspect they might go with a split run of destroyers with half being larger and nuke powered and perhaps the other half being cheaper and conventional propulsion, but who knows... improvements in electric drive systems and nuclear propulsion systems might make fossil fuels obsolete by 2035.

    Indeed a CO2 and CO scrubber that separates the carbon in solid form might result in clean burning fossil fuel systems that can continue in use as long as they want.

    Could they not use some of the shipyards they use for corvettes? The frigate is not particularly large.

    I rather suspect most of the shipyards that make Corvettes could handle Frigates but I don't think they will make enormous numbers of Frigates because of the capabilities of the corvettes and reduced operating costs.

    A Frigate might be good for stationing somewhere for longer periods with support ships for things like piracy or anti smuggling duties that don't require hypersonic anti ship missiles and 5,000km range land attack cruise missiles.

    The northern fleet is where they operate the Kuznetsov and likely one of the two Kirovs and some Slavas, while the Pacific fleet might have the other Kirov they are going to keep and probably when they have four 40K ton helicopter carriers they will have two in the northern fleet and two in the pacific fleet.

    The civilian ships will be important but ships to protect them around the world will be important too.

    Other than that there are the sites which previously used to build the Krivak frigates. Those should have dry docks large enough for frigates.
    I cannot see the destroyers being built anywhere other than St. Petersburg to be honest.

    The shipyard for the northern fleet has been expanded to allow much bigger ships to be built there... they wont be building destroyers in just one yard.

    The problem to me at this moment does not seem to be shipyards or shipyard capacity but the component manufacturing rate.
    Production of the engines and reduction gear are well known issues, but there might be other bottlenecks in manufacturing as well.

    They will need engines for corvettes and a few frigates and perhaps some of the destroyers but most of their engines will also be going into civilian ships and support ships the military also wants. I would expect at least half their destroyers and all their new build cruisers will be nuclear powered.

    Shouldve taken Nikolaev while they had the chance. They'd have had 7 years to rebuild it already. Cest La vie

    Even 7 years ago it was broken and would have taken billions of dollars just to get it up to scratch to build corvettes... spending rather less than that amount upgrading all of the shipyards in Russia makes rather more sense... even the ones that can't make military ships can take some of the civilian work off the hands of the yards that can handle it.

    I took a bit of time this afternoon to have a look at all the Russian naval shipyards and the type of ships they built and are currently building.

    Coming back to Svernaya where the Gorshkovs are being built: I see that a huge 270m boathouse with 2 slipways are currently being constructed, and should be completed next year.

    That added to the existing 4+4 170m slipways would in theory make way for some serious ship building capacity!

    Over the years there have been lots of people pining over the loss of the shipyards in the Ukraine thinking this is the only way for Russia to boost ship production, but all this time if you pay attention shipyards all over the country have been upgraded and repaired to get them to the point where they can start producing new products and the point is that the first models are always the test jobs... where unexpected problems come up and are solved or dealt with... by the time you are building the third of fourth ship in a series then there should be no surprises or problems and you should be cranking them out.

    Surprises like... whoops... Ukrainians are dicks and we now have no propulsion systems for the ships we are half way through producing are over because they are all Russian these days... so that crap should be largely behind them now... just a case of big production orders that will keep shipyards busy for years and crank out a few ships every year to boost numbers so old ships can be retired and scrapped or sold.... and new facilities to have new ships can be created...

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:38 am

    kvs wrote:

    So if the Russian government is serious about realizing the 22350M, then it will expand production capacity.   The media is not reporting
    on such details in a timely fashion.   We are probably going to get some reports in 2024 or later on this subject.


    They do. But you must find more professional sources rather than MSM.
    There are tons of stuff about investment program and strategy employed in Russian shipbuilding.
    It started for real in 2007 when a strategy called “Strategy for the development of the shipbuilding industry for the period up to 2020 and beyond”. has been implied.
    In general, it combines two systems of support. The "systemic" one to the long-lasting industrial projects, and "special" ones targeted precisely to the development of shipbuilding.
    The first consists of 3 main pillars: no VAT tax for imported equipment, but only in a case it has no Russian analogues, subsidizing the interest rates and financial costs, as long as those are provided by Russian banks and financial institutions, and co-financing of investment projects related to the modernization of production facilities.
    The "special" one is far wider, with the same VAT 0% rate for import, and reduced to 10% VAT rate for the final product. Shipbuilders do not pay land and property tax at all. Federal assets are used to increase the capitalization of leasing companies. Loans provided to the shipbuilding sector are covered by federal guarantees. The federal budget pays for abroad purchase of licenses and technologies non-existent in Russia.
    There is a federal utilization fund, that covers the cost of disassembling old vessels if you replace them with domestic build new ones.
    Since 2010, only ships built in Russian yards, and waving the Russian flag, can extract "aquatic biological resources" in Russian territorial and internal waters.
    Since 2016, the Russian flag gives preferences for transporting and towing goods, in Russian territorial waters, including rivers.
    Since Dec 2018, Russian ships have the exclusive right to transport hydrocarbons produced in Russian territory and loaded onto vessels in the Northern Sea Route area. The only exception to it must be approved at the governmental level. And general comments are, that this is a backdoor for the Chinese. That alone brought a crazy yapping by Muricas goons, and Murica itself Laughing
    Budgetary allocations peaked 300% in 2020, to the level of almost 30 bln RUR, and this is just the beginning. It is supposed to rise till 2026.
    Overall, targeted federal assets created the conditions for the revival of the whole industry, leading to the situation when the annual growth of shipbuilding has been more than 100% year on year for 5 years in a row. That includes military shipbuilding, which actually rises more than civilian.
    What we see in the fishing business is mindblowing, Russian-made specialized vessels are lunched one by one, all over Russia, in several smaller shipyards. Those are all brand new projects.
    The entire offshore sector has been created along Zvezda shipyard. SU hardly constructed such specialized ships, as they have no clue to do so.
    To judge the condition of Russian shipbuilding, it is enough to take a look how a modern ship from Russia looks like.
    Those are all brand new and modern types, made with the implementation of latest technologies and fashion - yes, yes, there is one in shipbuilding Laughing
    Such elegant vessels used to be a brandmark of modern, European shipbuilding only a decade ago.
    Now, those are labeled "made in Russia".

    kvs, Hole, Lurk83 and Mir like this post

    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic


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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:10 pm

    Lurk83 wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:So you are talking about so distant future, that there is no point to consider it Very Happy
    This yard will be booked up to the nose for the next decade. Some of the projects will be allocated only when they will be running at full capacity, so expect an increased stream of contracts.

    Shouldve taken Nikolaev while they had the chance. They'd have had 7 years to rebuild it already. Cest La vie

    Maybe, but that money wound not have been spent on the upgrade of other yards.

    Ideally Nikolaev will become again part of Russia in the future. And maybe in 10 years time they will be also building civilian ships and warships for Russia there.

    But not before other yards have been upgraded, expanded and modernized.
    About the large yards currently being build, expanded or in planning phase there  are also a few yards in the north of Russia, like the former 82 shipyard in the rosliakovo district of Murmansk, which shall have two 200x200 m drydocks and belonging to rosneft and the planned huge Kola shipyard from novatek which should have two 400 x200 metres drydocks. These will be for civilian use, not for military orders, but will be fundamental for the northern route.
    In addition a new large drydock for repairs and modernisations for the navy (large enough to accomodate aircraft carriers and nuclear cruisers) is being built in Murmansk.

    We already mentioned the modernisation of the  Severnaya verf shipyard in Sankt Petersburg.

    After that I believe that also the Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad is due serious modernisation and upgrades.

    I know that some of the users here do not like that yard, but it is also the yard that in soviet times built 8 of the 12 Udaloy class destroyers (the rest were build in the yard that is now called Severnaya verf, where all the Sovremmenny class destroyers were built as well).

    So eventually it will be good for Russia to take control of the 3 delapidated large yards in Nikolaev and the one in Kherson (plus the othe repair yards in cities like Mariupol, Ismail, etc), but the investment to be done to bring them to a modern and efficient state will be massive (probably comparable to building the Zvezda shipyard)

    Better in the meanwhile to concentrate on bringing to a modern standard the available ones and stopping ordering ships from abroad (I believe that a large part of civilian ships used from Russian firms are still made in foreign countries).

    ALAMO, PapaDragon, lancelot, Scorpius and Lurk83 like this post


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