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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

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    Post  flamming_python Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:51 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    The commanding officer of a Gorshkov frigates is a captain 1rank ( capitano di vascello in italian ranks, equivalent to army colonel, instead of a captain 2 rank) probably also because they are the most modern and capable surface ships in Russian navy and because there are not many larger ships in service.


    If I am not mistaken the commanding officer of an American Burke class destroyer is a commander (equivalent of a captain second rank in Russian navy, capitano di fregata), but that is possibly because they have much more large surface ships than Russia and they do not want too many people in the highest rank below flag officers.

    Eventually it is possible than if in the future they will have more gorshkov M, very large hamphibious ships (the >8k displacement modified Ivan gren) and helicopter carriers, some of the basic 22350 could be commanded by a captain second rank.

    P.S.

    Are 22800 Corvettes and 22160 patrol ships commanded by a captain 3rd rank?

    The Admiral Gorshkov is commanded by a Captain 1st Rank, but checking now reveals the Admiral Kasatonov (also a Gorshkov class) is commanded by a Captain 2nd Rank. So it's a Captain 2nd Rank station.

    The Karakurts seem to be commanded by Captain 2nd and 3rd Ranks, so it's a Captain 3rd Rank station. It would be classed as a 3rd-rank ship class so it makes sense

    The 22160 patrol ships are commanded by Captain 3rd Ranks and Captain-Lieutenants so it's a Captain-Lieutenant position. Despite the fact that these ships have a greater displacement than the Karakurts. Quite surprising actually. Captain-Lieutenant is a rank you can make it to by your late 20s.

    You can see the classification of ship ranks in the Russian Navy here, although the list doesn't seem to be complete:
    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8_%D0%BA%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%B9_%D0%92%D0%9C%D0%A4_%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B8

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    Post  GarryB Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:28 pm

    Krivak with 3500 tons a corvette ??? what is a "big corvette" ??

    In terms of fire power the Krivak had a four tube launcher for Metel while the Udaloy has double that and is a destroyer.

    The role the Krivak undertook in the USSR navy was essentially big long endurance patrol boat, which is a better description of a corvette than anything else.

    Well, I am amused by the modern classification of ships that they want to impose.
    In my country, Aegis 6200-ton anti-aircraft destroyer is called a "frigate" so as not to appear aggressive.

    The upgraded Udaloys at 7.5K tons and potentially carrying 16 hypersonic manouvering missiles or 16 5,000km range land attack cruise missiles is called a Frigate.

    In modern times the corvette was a coastal vessel of between 500 and 1500 as a very, very high limit.
    The frigate was a 1500 to 2500 or few more as much, escort ship with anti-submarine orientation. In WWII they were called Escort Destroyer "DE"
    The destroyers were more than 3000t. and with a much higher speed and armament (30-35 knots)

    Corvettes and Frigates are getting bigger and heavier and are now multirole ships with more fire power than cold war cruisers... but lower numbers of missiles and weapons.

    Besides that, the "Frigates" of the 22350 class are classified as 1st rank ships, therefore with their 5400 tons almost 30 knots and their armament, Russia actually considers them destroyers.
    And from what it seems, they come to fill the gap with the premature withdrawal of the Sovremennyy destroyers, of which only 3 of about 17 remain, and even so, they hardly sail.

    They clearly call them frigates and the planned upgraded enlarged better armed versions heavy frigates.

    As I mentioned they also call upgraded Udaloys Frigates and give them a 100mm gun.

    The distinction is more about armament than size in my opinion... a corvette is lighter and cheaper but not necessarily light or cheap, but it is a patrol boat that can be used for a wide range of tasks because its electronics and flexible armament  means it can take on a variety of roles previously even frigates and destroyers would struggle with because of their single role nature.

    A corvette with two UKSK launchers can carry 8 Ovtet and 8 Onyx missiles and have the primary heavy armament of a single Udaloy and a single Sovremmeny Destroyer... and with Redut could have SAMs with better performance than the Kirov in the form of 150km range 9M96, 60km range 9M96, and 15km range 9M100 CIWS missiles... but obviously in much smaller numbers so it can really only defend itself. (operationally it will likely only carry the 60km and 15km SAMs).

    The Frigate is a bigger heavier longer ranged patrol ship with a bit more weapons and bigger radar and bigger better sonar and more room for better endurance...  long range trips being possible, but not common... it might spend time in the Med or the Baltic, but it wont be sailing enormous distances alone.

    A Destroyer has enough SAMs to defend itself and others and has a good number of attack missiles to make even a group of enemy ships think twice before attacking. It is designed to operate away from Russian defended waters but would be better defended with friendly aircraft from a carrier in support.

    A Cruiser is dedicated defence and attack ship that basically defends friendly groups of ships including landing ships and carriers and carries enough long range SAMs to defend a group of ships from sustained attack, and will operate with a fixed wing carrier to provide mutual support.

    I rather suspect the Cruisers and possibly even the Destroyers will have 152mm artillery.[/quote]
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    Post  LMFS Sat Jul 10, 2021 8:57 am

    The frigate "Admiral Golovko" will become the first standard carrier of missiles "Zircon"

    The frigate is planned to be sent for sea trials in the spring of 2022.

    MOSCOW, July 10. / TASS /. Project 22350 frigate Admiral Golovko will become the first standard carrier of Zircon hypersonic missiles. A source in the military-industrial complex told TASS about it.

    "It is planned that the frigate Admiral Golovko will become the first regular carrier [of the Zirkons]," the agency's interlocutor said.

    "Admiral Golovko" is the third and second in the series of Project 22350 frigate, it is planned to send it for sea trials in the spring of 2022.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/11872709

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    Post  Hole Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:02 pm

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 36 E6pmms10

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    Post  Dima Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:49 pm

    ^ shows how underutilized it was...
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:59 pm

    Dima wrote:^ shows how underutilized it was...

    Um no just because it looks like there is space doesn't mean there is.

    etc just because you think they can strap on more weapons doesn't mean they can.

    I am sure they used all the space they could, you are aware a ship needs room for things other than VLS right....

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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:36 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Um no just because it looks like there is space doesn't mean there is.

    etc just because you think they can strap on more weapons doesn't mean they can.

    I am sure they used all the space they could, you are aware a ship needs room for things other than VLS right....

    Yup. I swear sometimes that people think that a warship is nothing but a big long pointy metal box of weapons with an engine in the middle. Do these critics really beleive that experienced naval architects are all censored ing idiots, and that amateurs in armchairs know better then the professionals? No

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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:36 am

    Hahahaha.... that reminds me of a video programme following police on major motorways and their experiences... there was one episode where this stationwagon that was totally full... every seat and the rear area of the vehicle packed with bags and shit, there were bikes strapped on the back and there were canoes strapped on the top and the bonnet of the car was open about 50cm at the front held down by rope and struts so the driver could barely see forward... and smoke was coming out.

    Anyway the cop pulls him over... he is the only one in the car, and he directs him to turn his engine off and open the bonnet, which he does.

    This guy has all sorts of blankets and bags of food and beer bottles poked into every free available space around the engine and of course many things are on fire.

    The guy didn't understand that just putting stuff anywhere and everywhere is not a smart thing to do... the cop sat in the drivers seat and simply said this car is not drivable you have to take everything out, because you could not see out of any window except the drivers side window and out the front...

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    Post  Dima Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:47 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Um no just because it looks like there is space doesn't mean there is.

    etc just because you think they can strap on more weapons doesn't mean they can.

    I am sure they used all the space they could, you are aware a ship needs room for things other than VLS right....
    I'll give an example of 11356. Both 11356 and 22350 are designed by SDB.

    There was a model showcased before Indian Navy's 2nd batch of 11356 deal got signed. That model was installed with 32-36 x Shtil VLS. But the politics and lobbies inside the Indian Navy & establishment didn't pick the Russian VL system and that model went out of focus. Years later when Russian order for 11356 came, it came with just 24.

    And lastly, a designer or a design which fails to accomodate increase in scope and is tight packed from the design stage itself is awful.
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    Post  Dima Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:51 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Yup.  I swear sometimes that people think that a warship is nothing but a big long pointy metal box of weapons with an engine in the middle.  Do these critics really beleive that experienced naval architects are all censored ing idiots, and that amateurs in armchairs know better then the professionals? No
    Even the professionals comes up with stupid and tedious stuff like a shipping container based launch units on combat ships and awful designs which ends up in one or two units.
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:25 am

    Even the professionals comes up with stupid and tedious stuff like a shipping container based launch units on combat ships and awful designs which ends up in one or two units.

    I disagree... there is enormous potential for all sorts of modular systems and equipment including drones for air, sea and underwater use, for missiles for air defence, for attack, and for a range of other uses that could be placed on the deck... for a long range deployment they could simply put fuel bladders in those containers and operate at much higher speeds than their enemy expects because they can run faster and burn more fuel.

    They offer the potential for flexibility and alternative choices... many of the roles of helicopters could be replaced with small compact helicopter drones, which means it could retain the use of a helicopter drone with the added use of whatever they have in those other containers... I think it is a very clever and innovative idea that will worry enemy forces because they will have no idea what is in each of those containers, and any large support ships that operate with these vessels will be able to swap containers as needed changing its loadout in minutes for different tasks and roles mid ocean.

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:31 am

    Dima wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Yup.  I swear sometimes that people think that a warship is nothing but a big long pointy metal box of weapons with an engine in the middle.  Do these critics really beleive that experienced naval architects are all censored ing idiots, and that amateurs in armchairs know better then the professionals? No
    Even the professionals comes up with stupid and tedious stuff like a shipping container based launch units on combat ships and awful designs which ends up in one or two units.

    There was no more room inside the ship so they had to use containers, you do realize MODELS are just that Models that have never went through a design phase right?. Just some guys put it together to try and interest the MOD for funding.

    The container while not ideal was an ingenious method of turning the patrol ship into a nice multi-functional vessel and providing the ability to mount arms it otherwise wouldn't be able to BECAUSE THE HULL WAS FILLED.

    Project 22160 is a good ship for what it's DESIGNED for which is a patrol vessel, and I have praised the Russians many times on the 22160 and will do so more if it comes up.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:38 am

    Dima wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Um no just because it looks like there is space doesn't mean there is.

    etc just because you think they can strap on more weapons doesn't mean they can.

    I am sure they used all the space they could, you are aware a ship needs room for things other than VLS right....
    I'll give an example of 11356. Both 11356 and 22350 are designed by SDB.

    There was a model showcased before Indian Navy's 2nd batch of 11356 deal got signed. That model was installed with 32-36 x Shtil VLS. But the politics and lobbies inside the Indian Navy & establishment didn't pick the Russian VL system and that model went out of focus. Years later when Russian order for 11356 came, it came with just 24.

    And lastly, a designer or a design which fails to accomodate increase in scope and is tight packed from the design stage itself is awful.

    A model that is your grand argument

    You do realize the models companies produce haven't had a cent spent on them in terms of actual design work or finding right?. When you see a model there aren't any blueprints of technical data for it or anything on paper.

    It's only when the MOD shows interest and supplies money actual work starts to get done, the fact you are bringing up models as an example of "they are wasting space because this plastic model says so" is just stupid like really dam stupid.

    Btw the Indian 11356 has 24 Shtil, not 32-34, so your models lied to you and you revealed you don't know a god dam thing about ship construction.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:16 pm

    A couple of youtube screenshots of a 22350 at Severnaya. Not sure which one, but I'd guess its Adm Isakov.

    source

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 36 28-99010

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 36 28-99011

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    Post  kvs Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:48 pm

    According to the video linked above, the marine turbine substitution program started in 2006 but was moving slowly until 2014 and
    Crimea's return back to Russia. That is when Banderites sliced off their own testicles with export sanctions for Zorya Stroimash
    engines. In three years they were fully replaced with Russian engines.

    UEC plans to supply 20 M90FR gas turbines to the Russian Navy. Two are used per ship. Seven pairs will go to the project 22350
    ships under construction. That leaves 3 pairs for additional ships.

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    Post  limb Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:11 pm

    kvs wrote:According to the video linked above, the marine turbine substitution program started in 2006 but was moving slowly until 2014 and
    Crimea's return back to Russia.   That is when Banderites sliced off their own testicles with export sanctions for Zorya Stroimash
    engines.   In three years they were fully replaced with Russian engines.    

    UEC plans to supply 20 M90FR gas turbines to the Russian Navy.   Two are used per ship.    Seven pairs will go to the project 22350
    ships under construction.   That leaves 3 pairs for additional ships.

     

    Well tbf china has bought a lot of ukrainian turbines for its destroyers, so thats whats probably keeping them afloat.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:31 am

    That is OK... the Russians are making them better... perhaps they can undercut the Ukrainians and sell them to China too.

    At the very least the Ukrainians will get less money for the engines they sells and in the best case they lose that business too... or they end up making them at a loss and collapse that industry too.

    Nothing personal... just business.

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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:That is OK... the Russians are making them better... perhaps they can undercut the Ukrainians and sell them to China too.

    At the very least the Ukrainians will get less money for the engines they sells and in the best case they lose that business too... or they end up making them at a loss and collapse that industry too.

    Nothing personal... just business.


    Banderites are begging to lose the China market. What they pulled with Motor Sich has ticked off China in a major way.

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    Post  limb Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:18 pm

    kvs wrote:
    GarryB wrote:That is OK... the Russians are making them better... perhaps they can undercut the Ukrainians and sell them to China too.

    At the very least the Ukrainians will get less money for the engines they sells and in the best case they lose that business too... or they end up making them at a loss and collapse that industry too.

    Nothing personal... just business.


    Banderites are begging to lose the China market.   What they pulled with Motor Sich has ticked off China in a major way.


    How do you know?

    Type 52d and type 56 engines are still being ordered exclusively from motor sich with no sign of stopping.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:16 pm

    There was no alternative.
    Till now.
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    Post  kvs Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:58 am

    limb wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    GarryB wrote:That is OK... the Russians are making them better... perhaps they can undercut the Ukrainians and sell them to China too.

    At the very least the Ukrainians will get less money for the engines they sells and in the best case they lose that business too... or they end up making them at a loss and collapse that industry too.

    Nothing personal... just business.


    Banderites are begging to lose the China market.   What they pulled with Motor Sich has ticked off China in a major way.


    How do you know?

    Type 52d and type 56  engines are still being ordered exclusively from motor sich with no sign of stopping.

    Prove it with citations.

    https://chinaobservers.eu/why-ukraine-is-reassessing-its-defense-cooperation-with-china/

    "Critical technology being laundered to Russia" via China.

    Fcuking hilarious drivel. Absolutely zero Ukr "technology" is of interest to Russia.

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    Post  Lurk83 Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm

    ALAMO wrote:There was no alternative.
    Till now.

    I'm of the understanding that Russia can't build them quick enough for their own ships let alone taking big foreign orders.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:53 pm

    Ukraine won't be able to do so any moment now, so I would look for alternatives, if I were Chinese Very Happy

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    Post  LMFS Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:00 pm

    UEC supplied "Severnaya Verf" with a diesel-gas turbine unit М55Р for the frigate "Admiral Isakov"

    The Severnaya Verf shipyard, which is building Project 22350 frigates, has received another Russian-made M55R diesel-gas turbine unit. The unit is intended for the frigate "Admiral fleet Isakov of the Soviet Union, "the press service of Rostec reported.

    As stated in the holding, this is the fourth M55R unit supplied by Severnaya Verf, in general, and the second for Admiral Isakov. The first was delivered in early July. The first delivery of DGTA-M55R within the framework of import substitution of Ukrainian power plants was carried out in November last year. Then Severnaya Verf received a kit for the frigate Admiral Golovko.

    At the end of June this year, Severnaya Verf signed a contract for the supply of four diesel-gas turbine M55R units for the frigates Admiral Yumashev and Admiral Spiridonov under construction. Thus, taking into account the new contract, Russian power plants DGTA-M55R will be equipped with six frigates: Admiral Golovko, Admiral Isakov, Admiral Amelko, Admiral Chichagov, Admiral Yumashev and Admiral Spiridonov. The lead and the first serial frigates "Admiral Gorshkov" and "Admiral Kasatonov" received units produced by "Zorya" - "Mashproekt" (Nikolaev, Ukraine).

    https://en.topwar.ru/185607-odk-postavila-severnoj-verfi-dizel-gazoturbinnyj-agregat-m55r-dlja-fregata-admiral-isakov.html

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    Post  Backman Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:35 am

    lancelot wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Time to build lead ship:
    Steregushchiy-class: 7 years
    Gremyashchiy-class: 9 years
    Gorshkov-class: 12 years

    Noticing a pattern here? Already abysmal build time grows significantly with displacement
    Serial ones are nothing to write home about either

    Killing production of Gorshkovs now in order to spend at least next decade and a half waiting for some pipe dream is idiotic and, dare I say, retarded

    By sheer "coincidence" the Gremyashchiy and Gorshkov used imported engines which got banned.
    There is more to the time than displacement otherwise how can you explain them building the Project 22220 icebreakers so quickly?
    It took them 2-3 years to launch a 33530 tons icebreaker. Roughly 7 years from keel laying to commissioning of first ship.
    This was a ship with a new propulsion and power generation system to boot.

    I agree that it is a bad idea to kill production of Gorshkovs though. There is enough dry dock space to build those ships simultaneously.
    They could build a couple of destroyers to test the model out while continuing the frigate build.
    I think the answer is priority. The ice breakers are high priority. Everything is being throttled according to its needs. It is not limited by GDP. This is why it's annoying to hear ppl blather on about how long it would take Russia to build an aircraft carrier. If they really thought they needed it now , it would be done a hell of a lot sooner than people project.

    Big_Gazza and Hole like this post


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