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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov

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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:59 pm

    Dima wrote:^ shows how underutilized it was...

    Um no just because it looks like there is space doesn't mean there is.

    etc just because you think they can strap on more weapons doesn't mean they can.

    I am sure they used all the space they could, you are aware a ship needs room for things other than VLS right....

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Jul 16, 2021 12:36 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Um no just because it looks like there is space doesn't mean there is.

    etc just because you think they can strap on more weapons doesn't mean they can.

    I am sure they used all the space they could, you are aware a ship needs room for things other than VLS right....

    Yup. I swear sometimes that people think that a warship is nothing but a big long pointy metal box of weapons with an engine in the middle. Do these critics really beleive that experienced naval architects are all censored ing idiots, and that amateurs in armchairs know better then the professionals? No

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:36 am

    Hahahaha.... that reminds me of a video programme following police on major motorways and their experiences... there was one episode where this stationwagon that was totally full... every seat and the rear area of the vehicle packed with bags and shit, there were bikes strapped on the back and there were canoes strapped on the top and the bonnet of the car was open about 50cm at the front held down by rope and struts so the driver could barely see forward... and smoke was coming out.

    Anyway the cop pulls him over... he is the only one in the car, and he directs him to turn his engine off and open the bonnet, which he does.

    This guy has all sorts of blankets and bags of food and beer bottles poked into every free available space around the engine and of course many things are on fire.

    The guy didn't understand that just putting stuff anywhere and everywhere is not a smart thing to do... the cop sat in the drivers seat and simply said this car is not drivable you have to take everything out, because you could not see out of any window except the drivers side window and out the front...

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    Dima
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    Post  Dima Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:47 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Um no just because it looks like there is space doesn't mean there is.

    etc just because you think they can strap on more weapons doesn't mean they can.

    I am sure they used all the space they could, you are aware a ship needs room for things other than VLS right....
    I'll give an example of 11356. Both 11356 and 22350 are designed by SDB.

    There was a model showcased before Indian Navy's 2nd batch of 11356 deal got signed. That model was installed with 32-36 x Shtil VLS. But the politics and lobbies inside the Indian Navy & establishment didn't pick the Russian VL system and that model went out of focus. Years later when Russian order for 11356 came, it came with just 24.

    And lastly, a designer or a design which fails to accomodate increase in scope and is tight packed from the design stage itself is awful.
    Dima
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    Post  Dima Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:51 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:Yup.  I swear sometimes that people think that a warship is nothing but a big long pointy metal box of weapons with an engine in the middle.  Do these critics really beleive that experienced naval architects are all censored ing idiots, and that amateurs in armchairs know better then the professionals? No
    Even the professionals comes up with stupid and tedious stuff like a shipping container based launch units on combat ships and awful designs which ends up in one or two units.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:25 am

    Even the professionals comes up with stupid and tedious stuff like a shipping container based launch units on combat ships and awful designs which ends up in one or two units.

    I disagree... there is enormous potential for all sorts of modular systems and equipment including drones for air, sea and underwater use, for missiles for air defence, for attack, and for a range of other uses that could be placed on the deck... for a long range deployment they could simply put fuel bladders in those containers and operate at much higher speeds than their enemy expects because they can run faster and burn more fuel.

    They offer the potential for flexibility and alternative choices... many of the roles of helicopters could be replaced with small compact helicopter drones, which means it could retain the use of a helicopter drone with the added use of whatever they have in those other containers... I think it is a very clever and innovative idea that will worry enemy forces because they will have no idea what is in each of those containers, and any large support ships that operate with these vessels will be able to swap containers as needed changing its loadout in minutes for different tasks and roles mid ocean.

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    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:31 am

    Dima wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:Yup.  I swear sometimes that people think that a warship is nothing but a big long pointy metal box of weapons with an engine in the middle.  Do these critics really beleive that experienced naval architects are all censored ing idiots, and that amateurs in armchairs know better then the professionals? No
    Even the professionals comes up with stupid and tedious stuff like a shipping container based launch units on combat ships and awful designs which ends up in one or two units.

    There was no more room inside the ship so they had to use containers, you do realize MODELS are just that Models that have never went through a design phase right?. Just some guys put it together to try and interest the MOD for funding.

    The container while not ideal was an ingenious method of turning the patrol ship into a nice multi-functional vessel and providing the ability to mount arms it otherwise wouldn't be able to BECAUSE THE HULL WAS FILLED.

    Project 22160 is a good ship for what it's DESIGNED for which is a patrol vessel, and I have praised the Russians many times on the 22160 and will do so more if it comes up.


    Last edited by SeigSoloyvov on Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:41 am; edited 1 time in total
    SeigSoloyvov
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:38 am

    Dima wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Um no just because it looks like there is space doesn't mean there is.

    etc just because you think they can strap on more weapons doesn't mean they can.

    I am sure they used all the space they could, you are aware a ship needs room for things other than VLS right....
    I'll give an example of 11356. Both 11356 and 22350 are designed by SDB.

    There was a model showcased before Indian Navy's 2nd batch of 11356 deal got signed. That model was installed with 32-36 x Shtil VLS. But the politics and lobbies inside the Indian Navy & establishment didn't pick the Russian VL system and that model went out of focus. Years later when Russian order for 11356 came, it came with just 24.

    And lastly, a designer or a design which fails to accomodate increase in scope and is tight packed from the design stage itself is awful.

    A model that is your grand argument

    You do realize the models companies produce haven't had a cent spent on them in terms of actual design work or finding right?. When you see a model there aren't any blueprints of technical data for it or anything on paper.

    It's only when the MOD shows interest and supplies money actual work starts to get done, the fact you are bringing up models as an example of "they are wasting space because this plastic model says so" is just stupid like really dam stupid.

    Btw the Indian 11356 has 24 Shtil, not 32-34, so your models lied to you and you revealed you don't know a god dam thing about ship construction.
    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:16 pm

    A couple of youtube screenshots of a 22350 at Severnaya. Not sure which one, but I'd guess its Adm Isakov.

    source

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 36 28-99010

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 36 28-99011

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    Post  kvs Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:48 pm

    According to the video linked above, the marine turbine substitution program started in 2006 but was moving slowly until 2014 and
    Crimea's return back to Russia. That is when Banderites sliced off their own testicles with export sanctions for Zorya Stroimash
    engines. In three years they were fully replaced with Russian engines.

    UEC plans to supply 20 M90FR gas turbines to the Russian Navy. Two are used per ship. Seven pairs will go to the project 22350
    ships under construction. That leaves 3 pairs for additional ships.

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    Post  limb Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:11 pm

    kvs wrote:According to the video linked above, the marine turbine substitution program started in 2006 but was moving slowly until 2014 and
    Crimea's return back to Russia.   That is when Banderites sliced off their own testicles with export sanctions for Zorya Stroimash
    engines.   In three years they were fully replaced with Russian engines.    

    UEC plans to supply 20 M90FR gas turbines to the Russian Navy.   Two are used per ship.    Seven pairs will go to the project 22350
    ships under construction.   That leaves 3 pairs for additional ships.

     

    Well tbf china has bought a lot of ukrainian turbines for its destroyers, so thats whats probably keeping them afloat.
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:31 am

    That is OK... the Russians are making them better... perhaps they can undercut the Ukrainians and sell them to China too.

    At the very least the Ukrainians will get less money for the engines they sells and in the best case they lose that business too... or they end up making them at a loss and collapse that industry too.

    Nothing personal... just business.

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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:22 pm

    GarryB wrote:That is OK... the Russians are making them better... perhaps they can undercut the Ukrainians and sell them to China too.

    At the very least the Ukrainians will get less money for the engines they sells and in the best case they lose that business too... or they end up making them at a loss and collapse that industry too.

    Nothing personal... just business.


    Banderites are begging to lose the China market. What they pulled with Motor Sich has ticked off China in a major way.

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    Post  limb Thu Jul 29, 2021 2:18 pm

    kvs wrote:
    GarryB wrote:That is OK... the Russians are making them better... perhaps they can undercut the Ukrainians and sell them to China too.

    At the very least the Ukrainians will get less money for the engines they sells and in the best case they lose that business too... or they end up making them at a loss and collapse that industry too.

    Nothing personal... just business.


    Banderites are begging to lose the China market.   What they pulled with Motor Sich has ticked off China in a major way.


    How do you know?

    Type 52d and type 56 engines are still being ordered exclusively from motor sich with no sign of stopping.
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 29, 2021 4:16 pm

    There was no alternative.
    Till now.
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    Post  kvs Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:58 am

    limb wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    GarryB wrote:That is OK... the Russians are making them better... perhaps they can undercut the Ukrainians and sell them to China too.

    At the very least the Ukrainians will get less money for the engines they sells and in the best case they lose that business too... or they end up making them at a loss and collapse that industry too.

    Nothing personal... just business.


    Banderites are begging to lose the China market.   What they pulled with Motor Sich has ticked off China in a major way.


    How do you know?

    Type 52d and type 56  engines are still being ordered exclusively from motor sich with no sign of stopping.

    Prove it with citations.

    https://chinaobservers.eu/why-ukraine-is-reassessing-its-defense-cooperation-with-china/

    "Critical technology being laundered to Russia" via China.

    Fcuking hilarious drivel. Absolutely zero Ukr "technology" is of interest to Russia.

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    Post  Lurk83 Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:50 pm

    ALAMO wrote:There was no alternative.
    Till now.

    I'm of the understanding that Russia can't build them quick enough for their own ships let alone taking big foreign orders.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Jul 30, 2021 1:53 pm

    Ukraine won't be able to do so any moment now, so I would look for alternatives, if I were Chinese Very Happy

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    Post  LMFS Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:00 pm

    UEC supplied "Severnaya Verf" with a diesel-gas turbine unit М55Р for the frigate "Admiral Isakov"

    The Severnaya Verf shipyard, which is building Project 22350 frigates, has received another Russian-made M55R diesel-gas turbine unit. The unit is intended for the frigate "Admiral fleet Isakov of the Soviet Union, "the press service of Rostec reported.

    As stated in the holding, this is the fourth M55R unit supplied by Severnaya Verf, in general, and the second for Admiral Isakov. The first was delivered in early July. The first delivery of DGTA-M55R within the framework of import substitution of Ukrainian power plants was carried out in November last year. Then Severnaya Verf received a kit for the frigate Admiral Golovko.

    At the end of June this year, Severnaya Verf signed a contract for the supply of four diesel-gas turbine M55R units for the frigates Admiral Yumashev and Admiral Spiridonov under construction. Thus, taking into account the new contract, Russian power plants DGTA-M55R will be equipped with six frigates: Admiral Golovko, Admiral Isakov, Admiral Amelko, Admiral Chichagov, Admiral Yumashev and Admiral Spiridonov. The lead and the first serial frigates "Admiral Gorshkov" and "Admiral Kasatonov" received units produced by "Zorya" - "Mashproekt" (Nikolaev, Ukraine).

    https://en.topwar.ru/185607-odk-postavila-severnoj-verfi-dizel-gazoturbinnyj-agregat-m55r-dlja-fregata-admiral-isakov.html

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Thu Aug 05, 2021 6:35 am

    lancelot wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Time to build lead ship:
    Steregushchiy-class: 7 years
    Gremyashchiy-class: 9 years
    Gorshkov-class: 12 years

    Noticing a pattern here? Already abysmal build time grows significantly with displacement
    Serial ones are nothing to write home about either

    Killing production of Gorshkovs now in order to spend at least next decade and a half waiting for some pipe dream is idiotic and, dare I say, retarded

    By sheer "coincidence" the Gremyashchiy and Gorshkov used imported engines which got banned.
    There is more to the time than displacement otherwise how can you explain them building the Project 22220 icebreakers so quickly?
    It took them 2-3 years to launch a 33530 tons icebreaker. Roughly 7 years from keel laying to commissioning of first ship.
    This was a ship with a new propulsion and power generation system to boot.

    I agree that it is a bad idea to kill production of Gorshkovs though. There is enough dry dock space to build those ships simultaneously.
    They could build a couple of destroyers to test the model out while continuing the frigate build.
    I think the answer is priority. The ice breakers are high priority. Everything is being throttled according to its needs. It is not limited by GDP. This is why it's annoying to hear ppl blather on about how long it would take Russia to build an aircraft carrier. If they really thought they needed it now , it would be done a hell of a lot sooner than people project.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:47 am

    I'm of the understanding that Russia can't build them quick enough for their own ships let alone taking big foreign orders.

    Money talks... right now Russian engine companies are scrambling to make new engines they didn't have to make before because the Russian Navy traditionally ordered them from the Ukraine.

    Building up production capacity takes time and money, but obviously getting orders for engines for the Russian navy is something solid that most banks will give loans for to build and expand factories and order and buy materials and machines to build the engines.

    However get a large order from China for maybe three or four times more engines and you can build new factories to make these engines in serial production facilities so you can get bigger loan guarantees and increase production levels and speed to make more faster, which is good for the Russian Navy and the Chinese Navy, but not so good for Motor Sich which might not be able to expand production in that way... because these Chinese orders are likely all they have with no domestic engines needed and certainly no orders from the Russian navy either.
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    Post  George1 Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:59 pm

    Turbines and gearboxes loaded onto frigate "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Isakov"

    At Severnaya Verf, turbines and gearboxes of a diesel-gas turbine unit (DGTA) were loaded onto the third serial frigate of project 22350 “Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Isakov”. DGTA M55R, developed by the United Engine Corporation (UEC). According to the press service of PJSC Severnaya Verf Shipyard, this is the second fully domestic unit created at Russian facilities within the framework of the import substitution program. Both the port and starboard turbines, together with gearboxes, are immersed in the aft engine room of the ship through special technological cutouts. After alignment of gearboxes, main diesel engines and turbines, shipbuilders will be engaged in alignment and installation of the shaft line. This work will take about six months.

    https://dambiev.livejournal.com/2394117.html

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    Post  Hole Tue Sep 07, 2021 11:40 am

    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 36 22350_14
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 36 22350_15
    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2 - Page 36 22350_16

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    Post  owais.usmani Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:01 pm

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    Post  littlerabbit Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:28 pm

    owais.usmani wrote:


    Which fleet will get Admiral Isakov, BSF? dunno

    Sponsored content

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