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    Project 22350: Admiral Sergei Gorshkov #2

    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:29 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Looks like Gorshkov-clas will be cut down to just 8 hulls and Navy is going back to their usual stupidity of starting from scratch in the middle of the series construction hoping that they will not screw up next project just when they finally stopped screwing up current one   No

    https://portnews.ru/news/314664/


    Article in full:

    After the reconstruction of Severnaya Verf in St. Petersburg, United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) plans to start building a new series of frigates 22350M. As the correspondent of IAA PortNews reported , on June 23 in St. Petersburg during the opening of the X International Maritime Defense Show (IMDS-2021), said the vice president for military shipbuilding of JSC USC Vladimir Korolev.

    However, he did not specify the possible timing of the start of the construction of a new series.

    Also, the vice-president of USC noted that the corporation is currently building a series of frigates of project 22350. In total, eight frigates of this series will be built. The seventh and eighth frigates were laid down in 2020.

    “We have decided to build these frigates, which are now 22350 for fast and high-quality filling of the fleets. Versions 22350 and 22350M complement each other. The upgraded version will receive more weapons, and other characteristics will be improved, ”explained Vice Admiral, Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Vladimir Kasatonov.

    United Shipbuilding Corporation JSC is the largest shipbuilding company in Russia. It was created in accordance with the decree of the President of the Russian Federation in 2007 with 100% of the shares in federal ownership. The holding includes about 40 enterprises and organizations of the industry (major shipbuilding and ship repair yards, leading design bureaus). At present, most of the domestic shipbuilding complex has been consolidated on the basis of USC. The Russian market is the main one for the state corporation, which also exports its products to 20 countries of the world.

    Ok, so 8x "original" Gorshkovs followed by a series of upgraded 22350M.

    So whats the gripe? dunno

    Its hardly a surprise. The initial 22350 design first saw a hull laid back in 2006, and the 2nd series of 4 units include upgrades over the original. Frankly, I'd be surprised if they didn't proceed to 22350M once Severnaya Verf redevolopments are done.

    There is an outward chance that they might decide to shift "basic" 22350 builds to other yards now that the design is mature? Time will tell.

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    Isos
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    Post  Isos Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:30 pm

    The_Observer wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:Project 22350M Super Gorshkov Cool

    It has not. The model is from Morinforsystem-Agat. They make a lot of radar and VLS systems for the Russian Navy.

    This is merely a company concept to show off their prospective radar and VLS products. This concept is in no way connected to the Rus Navy.

    Thry can't use the 3x12 Shtil-1 because of weight issues on Grigorovitch class yet they advertize block of 20-30 systems with >100 missiles.

    They should be more realistic.
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    Post  Isos Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:33 pm

    M variant isn't the super Gorshkov.

    Anyway Gorshkov is too small to be the backbone of their fleet. They need to make it some 10m longer with more missiles and more space for the crew for long trips.

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    Post  miketheterrible Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:36 pm

    It will be the backbone for a while till they get larger variants. Its enough to travel to from Syria and their apparent new base in Sudan
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    Post  PapaDragon Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:57 pm

    franco wrote:...I have also noticed mention of 8 ships. Not sure it doesn't represent the 8 left on order after the first 2 were delivered or that they feel comfortable switching to the enlarged version coming from the soon to be new enlarged shipyard.

    They have no reason whatsoever to feel comfortable

    This is a repeat of cancellation of Neustrashimi-class in the hope that Steregushi will soon be built in huge numbers

    It took them 20 years to get first hulls (and only thanks to massive purchases of imported equipment)

    Same with cancellation of Akulas in favour of Yasens, this time it took 30 years

    Don't cancel what you have now for something that still only exists on paper, have they learned nothing from the good old days of Yeltsin?



    Big_Gazza wrote:Ok, so 8x "original" Gorshkovs followed by a series of upgraded 22350M.

    So whats the gripe? dunno

    Gripe is that they were barely putting together standard Gorshkovs and now when they finally gotten close to sorting out the production problems they decided to flush everything down the toilet (again) and start from scratch (again)

    We all know how that worked (several) times before

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Thu Jul 01, 2021 12:53 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:There is an outward chance that they might decide to shift "basic" 22350 builds to other yards now that the design is mature?  Time will tell.

    Of course, this is just Severnaya talking about their plans, and who would build frigates when they can build destroyers? It makes no sense that the VMF will only have 10 frigates in the future...
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:03 am

    LMFS wrote:It makes no sense that the VMF will only have 10 frigates in the future...

    Just to put things into a perspective.
    Italy owns 4 frigates of that kind.
    Just take a look at the stats.
    WMF is about the same in size, as French and UK combined.
    Why do you demand Russia to have a fleet bigger in size than two similar in GDP nuclear-capable European powers together?
    Is it a dick measurements contest of some kind? scratch
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:12 am

    8 Frigates is clearly insufficient. Take Japan. It has plans to build 22 frigates.
    The Admiral Gorshkov class is still one of the most advanced (if not THE most advanced) frigate out there.
    Cutting production makes no sense. Especially with VLS upgrade like Admiral Amelko.
    This is a highly effective ship more effective than even their current available destroyers and cruisers in terms of surface to surface attack.

    Unless 22350M is no longer the larger displacement destroyer like ship originally discussed it makes no sense.
    It makes no sense to make major upgrades to the design which would massively delay production. They need more ships.
    There is also a vast, like major, capability difference between this frigate and previous ships.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:16 am

    They will have more than that.
    Still, divided into different theatres located 8000 miles away.
    And whole Japan is covered by Tu-22/Ch22/32 and Mig31K/Ch47 combo scratch
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    Post  LMFS Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:24 am

    ALAMO wrote:Just to put things into a perspective.
    Italy owns 4 frigates of that kind.
    Just take a look at the stats.
    WMF is about the same in size, as French and UK combined.
    Why do you demand Russia to have a fleet bigger in size than two similar in GDP nuclear-capable European powers together?
    Is it a dick measurements contest of some kind? scratch

    Because Russia plays in the league of US (to put things in perspective, they have 80 DDGs) and not in that of their chihuahuas. And because the dimensions and geographical constraints of the country with practically isolated fleets demand it.

    They need to replace all their Soviet fleet, now that they are starting to get the serial production of the 22350 under control, they are more likely to expand it to other lesser shipyards while Severnaya kickstarts the M, than cancelling production all together. Anything less than 18-24 units in the long term makes no sense to me...

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    Post  lancelot Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:28 am

    ALAMO wrote:
    LMFS wrote:It makes no sense that the VMF will only have 10 frigates in the future...
    Just to put things into a perspective.
    Italy owns 4 frigates of that kind.
    Just take a look at the stats.
    WMF is about the same in size, as French and UK combined.
    Why do you demand Russia to have a fleet bigger in size than two similar in GDP nuclear-capable European powers together?

    The UK has 13 active Type 23 frigates. You simply cannot compare or talk about Italian Navy which is stuck in the Mediterranean and has a much smaller coast to defend. Even then you are wrong since Italy has plans to have 10 FREMM frigates. Right now they have 12 frigates total. France has even more frigates but they have several different types of several weight classes.

    Russia has a huge coastline and massive distance between fleets.


    Last edited by lancelot on Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:31 am

    No, they don't.
    They are not dependant on ocean transport.
    The main cargo flows via tracks, pipes, and vessels that are all covered with land-based assets.
    The size of Russia makes it one of a kind.
    Just that, all of that.
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:43 am

    ALAMO wrote:No, they don't.
    They are not dependant on ocean transport.
    The main cargo flows via tracks, pipes, and vessels that are all covered with land-based assets.
    The size of Russia makes it one of a kind.
    Just that, all of that.

    Which part of disconnected bodies of water did you not get? Russia has massive issues with distance.
    That is partly why they lost the Battle of Tsushima remember?
    There is a vast distance between the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet or even the Black Sea fleet.

    While I think they could adopt a defensive strategy with smaller corvettes in the Baltic and Black Sea they seem to have chosen otherwise.
    The Black Sea fleet is the closest to the Middle East.
    Yet there is no way around the vast distance between the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet.

    The RF has about twice the population of the UK or France. It needs to have twice the size of military.
    It also cannot depend on the US Navy to cover its back like the UK and France do.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Jul 01, 2021 2:06 am

    The most likely answer here is that the 22350M is just a slightly larger 22350, ie a "heavy" frigate.  Enough space to add an upsized UKSK and Redut battery, maybe upgraded (heavier) main radar?  They clearly will not be discarding the 22350 design and starting with a clean sheet, and suggestions to the contrary are just nonsense.


    Gorshkovs are said to be 5,400T full load.  I'd expect they will add 1,000-1,500 T, but no more.  That would be >1,000T short of even the Flight I Arleigh Burke, so remains a frigate.

    We have no friggin idea on what a future Russian destroyer will look like, so conjecture is pretty much useless.   Super-Gorshkov-on-steroids?  Lider-variant?   dunno  All that matters right now is that they build a good series of frigates based around a unified design.  22350 fits the bill, so once the inital run of 8 is done, its time to revise.  

    Heck, if the USN can regularly tweak their Arleigh Burke every now and then to introduce progressive improvements (they are up to Flight III now), why the heck are peeps getting their silk knickers in a twist just cuz Russia is doing the same???   Suspect

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    Post  lancelot Thu Jul 01, 2021 3:10 am

    Except it is not an initial run of 8. They are building 4 frigates of the initial design and the remaining ones will have more VLS cells.
    I see no purpose in the new design. But I suppose they could make them just slightly larger like you said.

    The tendency with the FREMM and with the Type 26 is to make larger ships.
    The Type 26 in particular will have roughly the same amount of launchers as the upgraded Admiral Gorshkovs.
    It has a 12 cell VLS for 48 AA missiles and 24 cell Mk 41 VLS. It has a 127mm gun.
    This is not that different from the later Admiral Gorshkov types.

    They probably want to retain the advantage in terms of weapons load and this will require a larger ship.

    It still think it is a bit of a waste though.
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    Post  hoom Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:00 am

    All that matters right now is that they build a good series of frigates based around a unified design.
    This.
    Be it 20380/5s, 11356 or 22350 the demands of logistics & production efficiency require a standardised type built in significant numbers.

    It has a 12 cell VLS for 48 AA missiles and 24 cell Mk 41 VLS.
    Seaceptor are really not comparable.
    With 25km range they're more in the Tor/Pantsir-M class, nothing like 120km of the longer range 9M96 version.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 01, 2021 11:19 am

    lancelot wrote:
    The RF has about twice the population of the UK or France. It needs to have twice the size of military.
    It also cannot depend on the US Navy to cover its back like the UK and France do.

    Seems that they follow your friendly advice forever now, having about that Laughing
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    Post  Arrow Thu Jul 01, 2021 1:20 pm

    lancelot wrote:8 Frigates is clearly insufficient. Take Japan. It has plans to build 22 frigates.
    .

    But it probably won't end with 10 frigates of project 22350. In addition, they will start the construction of the 22350M project. There are also other Admiral Grigorovich class frigates.
    This will ultimately be up to 20 frigates.However, they have much more nuclear and conventional submarines than Europe and Japan.


    Because Russia plays in the league of US (to put things in perspective, they have 80 DDGs) and not in that of their chihuahuas wrote:

    Is Russia really playing in the US league? Russia has more than two times less population and in GDP it is 5 times smaller than the USA
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    Post  lancelot Thu Jul 01, 2021 5:08 pm

    Arrow wrote:Is Russia really playing in the US league? Russia has more than two times less population and in GDP it is 5 times smaller than the USA

    I agree that Russia should not bother competing with the US in naval terms. Leave that to China.
    Russia needs its own specific Navy and having one roughly the size of Japan or twice the size of UK and France should be enough.
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    Post  Hole Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:10 pm

    Most of the russian population is very good educated while in the states they mostly flip burgers or sell overprized houses.

    For the GDP. Which one do you compare? The real one or the one with the inflated "asset" prizes?

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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 01, 2021 6:21 pm

    Hole wrote:Most of the russian population is very good educated...

    Piece of paper that everyone gets just because education is made available to any random idiot that walks through the door isn't a valid metric

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Jul 01, 2021 7:32 pm

    What you are even talking about? scratch
    They are winning all the youth Olympics that are there, in some taking all the gold medals that were avaiable.
    Still not impressed? Well ...
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    Post  PapaDragon Thu Jul 01, 2021 8:27 pm

    ALAMO wrote:What you are even talking about? scratch
    They are winning all the youth Olympics that are there, in some taking all the gold medals that were avaiable.
    Still not impressed? Well ...

    12% vaccination rate in a country that had the first vaccine available and large fake vaccination certificate market​ doesn't exactly scream quality education

    Face it, it's just a small number of quality specimens dragging behind them a useless mass of morons


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    Post  kvs Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:10 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:The most likely answer here is that the 22350M is just a slightly larger 22350, ie a "heavy" frigate.  Enough space to add an upsized UKSK and Redut battery, maybe upgraded (heavier) main radar?  They clearly will not be discarding the 22350 design and starting with a clean sheet, and suggestions to the contrary are just nonsense.


    Gorshkovs are said to be 5,400T full load.  I'd expect they will add 1,000-1,500 T, but no more.  That would be >1,000T short of even the Flight I Arleigh Burke, so remains a frigate.

    We have no friggin idea on what a future Russian destroyer will look like, so conjecture is pretty much useless.   Super-Gorshkov-on-steroids?  Lider-variant?   dunno  All that matters right now is that they build a good series of frigates based around a unified design.  22350 fits the bill, so once the inital run of 8 is done, its time to revise.  

    Heck, if the USN can regularly tweak their Arleigh Burke every now and then to introduce progressive improvements (they are up to Flight III now), why the heck are peeps getting their silk knickers in a twist just cuz Russia is doing the same???   Suspect

    The point that many ignore or do not even realize is that thanks to missile tech the size of modern naval ships can no longer be framed in WWII terms.
    The small corvettes in the Caspian that engaged targets in Syria made many frigates obsolete. So the obsession with the size of the Gorshkov variants
    is off the mark. I am sure the designers will be making sure to think of the missiles first and design accordingly.

    Dick measuring against the Arleigh Burke is for the uninformed.

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    Post  Mir Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    ALAMO wrote:What you are even talking about? scratch
    They are winning all the youth Olympics that are there, in some taking all the gold medals that were avaiable.
    Still not impressed? Well ...

    12% vaccination rate in a country that had the first vaccine available and large fake vaccination certificate market​ doesn't exactly scream quality education



    Quite the opposite in fact! Refusing to get injected with some experimental thingy for a virus that you have a 99% chance of survival tells me their brain cells are still working quite well actually! Very Happy

    Anyway to get back to the 22350M. The original boat has been tested and proven, but technology and requirements change all the time. Clearly they are thinking in terms of modernizing the original design and it will probably morph into something a bit larger with more weapons and improved electronics. They already have follow up version and the M will likely be an enlarged version of it. It shouldn't cause too much hassle for seamless production.

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