2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war #3

All of this talk about the drones in this war. But this wasn't the first war with drones. There was Georgia. This is the Mig 29 vs Israel drone in Georgia. Obviously drone tech has improved since 08. But this Mig 29 makes it look easy. What would have happen if Mig 29's and su 25's just flew into the same air space as the Bayraktar's ? Could they just take them out like this ?


This guy is coming in hot

Backman wrote:All of this talk about the drones in this war. But this wasn't the first war with drones. There was Georgia. This is the Mig 29 vs Israel drone in Georgia. Obviously drone tech has improved since 08. But this Mig 29 makes it look easy. What would have happen if Mig 29's and su 25's just flew into the same air space as the Bayraktar's ? Could they just take them out like this ?


This guy is coming in hot

Rosoboronexport is already developing cheaper counter-drones to defeat UAV's/UCAV's like the Turkish Buyfucktard's. Almaz-Antey already have whole vehicles that launch target drones to train air defence. All it would take is to make those target drones dual use....empty payloads for training IAD, or loaded with HE-Frag to target UCAV's, or have cheap electro-optical modules attachments near the tip of the target drones that give live feeds to users, and empty slots at the bottom with Saiga-12 shotguns with barrel drums ammo stored in the body, the gun being upside with only really the barrel sticking out. Maybe not even shotguns, it could be the anti-drone ECM gun, or a net gun, or a combination of the suggestions.

This one was developed by Almaz-Antey

^ Yeah but again that suggests something has to be reinvented to counter drones. When it looks like a Mig 29 with a functioning radar and some air to air missiles can get it done
In 2008, the Russian airforce shot down 7 Hermese 450 drones.

This is the size of them. Similar weight class as the TB2.

or manpads on drones.

That is what will probably happen. Seeking new manpads and anti air systems to be cheaper and reach higher altitudes.

kvs wrote:Why are MANPADs not a viable option? Deploying a full sized jet to shoot down glorified toys seems to be wasteful.
If the range of MANPADs is too small, then perhaps scaling them up would be a good idea. As long as they remain
relatively portable.

Ceiling.

Backman wrote:^ Yeah but again that suggests something has to be reinvented to counter drones. When it looks like a Mig 29 with a functioning radar and some air to air missiles can get it done
In 2008, the Russian airforce shot down 7 Hermese 450 drones.

This is the size of them. Similar weight class as the TB2.

Just fueling, then flying, then maintenance afterwards for a modern fighter jet would greatly supersede the cost of just flying a drone with optical feed and a Saiga-12 shotgun by a few orders of magnitude. A civilian with a meager income saved up could afford purchasing a flying shotgun drone, they're that cheap. By flying a fighter jet to intercept a UAV/UCAV as the main means of drone interception is basically falling for the enemies plans of asymmetrical warfare. You don't fight cheap with expensive, you fight OPFOR's means of cheap warfare with a even cheaper means of warfare.

Like I said, why not a UAV that carries Verba/Igla?

Simply have a drone that can fly high and far enough to provide close AD without it being expensive. Wouldn't face much trouble from the enemy.

Only major issue is now tracking the enemy drones. So more radar/optronics systems for mobile units need to be created that may be paired with such drones.

kvs wrote:Why are MANPADs not a viable option?   Deploying a full sized jet to shoot down glorified toys seems to be wasteful.    
If the range of MANPADs is too small, then perhaps scaling them up would be a good idea.   As long as they remain
relatively portable.

If you have an air force (and unlike Armenia, you use it), you are always going to have fighters patrolling your airspace. For them to use ten rounds (probably it is difficult to use less with the high rate of fire guns they carry) to shoot down a MALE UCAV that costs several million is not wasteful at all. Those things don't even have the means of self defence to force the fighter to use a missile.

These are means to do the war on the cheap and stand no chance against even moderately capable enemies.

Isos wrote:Because if the enemy has fighters with r-73 like missiles those manpad carrying drones will be easy pray. They will very easily tatget them since small drones like TB2 can't carry manpads, you would need a bigger drone.

Just see in Libya how 4 mig-29 stopped the operation of Turkish drones without even fighting them. Before that they had chinese attack drones which didn't really helped. Using real fighters efficiently is way better than using some drones efficiently.

Except it goes back to same addage - cheaper vs expensive. The manpads drone would be great for point defense or when you know enemies drones are in your area.

Different sized drones create different problems.

Small hand held ones are hard for fighters to detect and would be a problem for most types of weapons to shoot down.

Larger weapon carrying drones are much easier to find and attack and shoot down with radar and IR guided missiles or indeed cannon fire.

There wont be one solution to every drone problem... the Serbs flew helicopters like the Mi-8 or perhaps Mi-2 along side the drones as they flew along and shot them down with rifle calibre machine guns in the cargo doors...

The Russians are developing an unmanned helicopter to find and hunt drones... a helicopter can track hovering and low speed drones, but faster drones could be used against bigger better drone targets.

The Mi-28NM is getting 30mm airburst laser beam detonated shells which would be ideal for use against enemy drones.

The drone shown above with an auto shotgun payload would also be very useful in bringing down drone targets cost effectively... but the main problem for that drone would be locating enemy drones and then getting close enough to bring them down with shotgun fire.

I have mentioned a simple 40mm grenade that explodes forward in a cone of fragments after travelling 30-40m from the muzzle would be an interesting round... the fixed fuse would be cheaper than laser initiated fuses, but laser detonated rounds would be rather more useful because it could be fired from any distance and the grenades could be modified to have a more spherical blast that could be used amongst a group of drones or against ground targets.

There is also scope for jammers and directed weapons intended to damage electronics like EMP beams or bombs...

Drones are always going to be a problem... just like anti tank and anti aircraft missiles are always going to be a problem...

Isos wrote:Because if the enemy has fighters with r-73 like missiles those manpad carrying drones will be easy pray. They will very easily tatget them since small drones like TB2 can't carry manpads, you would need a bigger drone.

Just see in Libya how 4 mig-29 stopped the operation of Turkish drones without even fighting them. Before that they had chinese attack drones which didn't really helped. Using real fighters efficiently is way better than using some drones efficiently.

... Only they really didn't .

The Turkish Op was stopped because they couldn't support their drones up to Al Jufra and they lost 6 more from may to Augustus.

Something seemingly Mi-8/17 based getting shot down. Allegedly in Karabakh, allegedly Azerbaijanian.

https://twitter.com/gunner_schmulke/status/1340771463570350081

franco wrote:Armenian opposition proposes to place a second Russian military base in the country...

First intelligent idea from Armenia in very long time

But I think Russia will want to see some actual gesture of loyalty from Yerevan before they decide to make any further commitments

franco wrote:..Initially, the period of stay of the Russian military on the territory of Armenia was 25 years, but in 2010 the document was amended, increasing the period from 25 to 49 years.

25 years since 1995 would be, with for it... 2020

So kids, let's imagine how NK war of this year would have gone if Armenians told those pesky Russians to leave their democratic soil

Somehow I have a feeling that presidente Erdogan would have been having that victory parade in Yerevan instead of Baku