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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2

    TMA1
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    Post  TMA1 Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:45 pm

    lancelot wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:...I have doubts about Chinese aesa radar capabilities. China was asking Russian electronic firms for help in developing the radar system for the j-20 less than ten years ago. Now it certainly could be the case that they have been massively funding the progress in that field. I get the feeling that PESA offers similar abilities at lower cost and that Russia is holding off until the change in capabilities is enough to warrant the cost.

    For the J-16 all they needed was a radar that was good enough in comparison with the older Russian radar in the Su-30MKK.
    You should not underestimate the Chinese electronics industry. The Chinese are one of the leading manufacturers of telecommunications equipment. The basic technology for cellphone stations and antennas is not that different from the one used in radars. Those also use GaA and GaN. They also operate at similar wavelengths. The Chinese also have one of the best semiconductor industries. What they might have lacked was the expertise on the basic algorithms and radar design proper rather than the fundamental electronics technology and the ability to manufacture it in quantity. What makes the most sense to manufacture for Russia and China is likely not the same since the manufacturing expertise domains are also not the same.

    You are correct about their telecom work and bring up good points. I don't doubt the abilities of mainland China one bit. In fact I have a serious concern that they will surely overtake us here in the west very soon. I'd say that this is s bad thing but frankly I loathe western politicians nearly as much as the leadership over in mainland China.

    My previous comment was more a bitter swipe at western military analysts and their strange biases.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Sun Mar 28, 2021 12:27 am

    The_Observer wrote:That's quite a stretch. Which companies? Unless you think TSMC is Chinese.
    The semiconductor industry is actually one of the areas where the Chinese are lacking.

    SMIC is one of the top 5 largest foundry businesses in the world.
    SMIC already can manufacture chips at 14nm. This year they will start manufacturing at 10nm with their N+1 process.
    China has another large foundry company in Shanghai that is HLMC. HLMC can manufacture at 22nm.

    Only countries with better process technology are Taiwan and South Korea.
    Last year the PRC surpassed the USA and Japan in semiconductor production capacity in wafers per month.

    HiSilicon, part of Huawei, was in the top 10 semiconductor businesses in the world by revenue until Huawei got sanctioned.
    HiSilicon designed the chips and manufactured them in Taiwan until the sanctions hit.
    This is similar to what Qualcomm in the US does. Or what Baikal Electronics in Russia does.

    YMTC manufactures NAND Flash and CXMT manufactures DRAM.
    YMTC announced they sampled 1.33Tb 128-layer QLC 3D NAND Flash chips last year.

    AMEC produces plasma etcher tools which are used by leading edge semiconductor manufacturers like TSMC.

    The US sanctioned sales of Intel processors to China back when Obama was President to cripple their supercomputers.
    So the Chinese designed and manufactured their own processors and supercomputer, the at the time number 1 supercomputer in the world, the Sunway TaihuLight.

    Had the USA not imposed bans on sales of high end manufacturing tools to China like they did with EUV the Chinese would have even better technology.
    This means 5nm and below are right now out of reach for Chinese manufacturers. Only South Korean and Taiwanese foundries can manufacture with level of detail.
    To resolve this situation China is building its own EUV machine tools. Recently they announced they were able to manufacture lenses with the required specifications.
    They are still working on the light source for the semiconductor lithography process.

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:35 am

    lancelot wrote:
    TMA1 wrote:...I have doubts about Chinese aesa radar capabilities. China was asking Russian electronic firms for help in developing the radar system for the j-20 less than ten years ago. Now it certainly could be the case that they have been massively funding the progress in that field. I get the feeling that PESA offers similar abilities at lower cost and that Russia is holding off until the change in capabilities is enough to warrant the cost.

    For the J-16 all they needed was a radar that was good enough in comparison with the older Russian radar in the Su-30MKK.
    You should not underestimate the Chinese electronics industry. The Chinese are one of the leading manufacturers of telecommunications equipment. The basic technology for cellphone stations and antennas is not that different from the one used in radars. Those also use GaA and GaN. They also operate at similar wavelengths. The Chinese also have one of the best semiconductor industries. What they might have lacked was the expertise on the basic algorithms and radar design proper rather than the fundamental electronics technology and the ability to manufacture it in quantity. What makes the most sense to manufacture for Russia and China is likely not the same since the manufacturing expertise domains are also not the same.

    Yeah but there is a lack of overlap into the military side of things from the consumer side. China uses French radar and sonar clones for their submarines. They still s̶t̶e̶a̶l̶ borrow designs for military stuff.

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    nero

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    Post  nero Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:18 am

    lancelot wrote:
    The_Observer wrote:That's quite a stretch. Which companies? Unless you think TSMC is Chinese.
    The semiconductor industry is actually one of the areas where the Chinese are lacking.

    SMIC is one of the top 5 largest foundry businesses in the world.
    SMIC already can manufacture chips at 14nm. This year they will start manufacturing at 10nm with their N+1 process.
    China has another large foundry company in Shanghai that is HLMC. HLMC can manufacture at 22nm.

    SMIC has started making 7nm recently. Source

    Once they finally nail down EUV they'll be able to make them even smaller. They acquired something from ASML for this so it is likely already on the horizon; probably a few years until they enter initial production.

    Anyways, with the recent component crisis they are going to make a lot of money even with >14nm. Most consumer grade electronics use Cortex-M's (3, 4, 7's) which are normally 20-100 nm.
    lancelot
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    Post  lancelot Mon Mar 29, 2021 3:46 am

    nero wrote:SMIC has started making 7nm recently. Source

    Once they finally nail down EUV they'll be able to make them even smaller. They acquired something from ASML for this so it is likely already on the horizon; probably a few years until they enter initial production.

    Anyways, with the recent component crisis they are going to make a lot of money even with >14nm. Most consumer grade electronics use Cortex-M's (3, 4, 7's) which are normally 20-100 nm.

    There is a lot of misinformation in the net about this. SMIC N+1 is roughly equivalent to 10nm. N+2 is the one that is supposed to be equivalent to 7nm.
    SMIC's N+1 process has reached initial production status but is not in mass production yet. The SMIC 14nm FinFET process is supposedly in mass production and has reached good yield rates. i.e. most of the chips produced with that process are working and at spec.

    SMIC purchased an EUV lithography machine from ASML two years ago. But then the machine supposedly burned up in a "fire" and Uncle Sham put the screws on ASML and the Netherlands government to block the sale. So the machine was never delivered to SMIC although they paid for it.

    Uncle Sham is currently working on blocking sales of even DUV equipment which can produce 10nm and 7nm from being sold to SMIC. They are supposedly going to squeeze ASML (Netherlands) and Nikon (Japan) to do that. Because, in case you did not know, that superpower of semiconductors Uncle Sham cannot manufacture lithography machines on their own. Not even old lithography machines like the 90nm ones China can manufacture. What Uncle Sham can manufacture is the light source used for EUV by Cymer, a US subsidiary of Dutch ASML. The Japanese have their own competing EUV light source but no machine to put it on yet.

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    calripson

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    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2 - Page 4 Empty Scott Ritter Article

    Post  calripson Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:40 pm

    According to Scott Ritter, the USAF has run simulations that project a 20:1 kill ratio for F-22 fighter jets against Su-30 series aircraft. What is disturbing about this conjecture is not whether it is true, but the fact that NATO, Israel, and the US military believe it to be true.


    Last edited by calripson on Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:14 am; edited 1 time in total

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    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:55 pm

    What is a S-30? I know of an Su-30 but not S-30.  And which variant? It isn't like they know what is entailed to newest variant used by Russia.

    Also, from actual tests against older Su-30MKI, most aircraft lost against it.

    But yeah, simulations are always fact.  I seem to recall reading such simulations going back to early 2000's and what then?  They still lost in real training. Either against Rafale or Su-30MKI.

    Also, T/R modules for military aren't the same for civilian. This same concept goes for nearly every semiconductor. Hence why they don't use civil parts for military. China, Russia nor USA does. I can't say for the rest. I just know for fact Russia and USA don't.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:05 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:What is a S-30? I know of an Su-30 but not S-30.  And which variant? It isn't like they know what is entailed to newest variant used by Russia.

    Also, from actual tests against older Su-30MKI, most aircraft lost against it.

    But yeah, simulations are always fact.  I seem to recall reading such simulations going back to early 2000's and what then?  They still lost in real training. Either against Rafale or Su-30MKI.

    Also, T/R modules for military aren't the same for civilian. This same concept goes for nearly every semiconductor.  Hence why they don't use civil parts for military. China, Russia nor USA does.  I can't say for the rest. I just know for fact Russia and USA don't.

    They also said America was the best prepared to handle a pandemic on some shitty infographic......we all know how that turned out. Wink

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:53 am

    You would have to ask a lot of questions about any simulated combat between F-22s and Su-30s.

    First of all which model Su-30... they range in performance from being an Su-27UB two seat Su-27, which is not a bad aircraft of course, right through to the newest Su-30s which are essentially going to be two seat Su-35s.

    Also what was the situation... are we talking about 187 F-22s vs the dozen or two Venezuelan Su-30s?

    If that is the case then the US is in trouble...

    US simulations showed the west would wipe the floor with the Soviet fighters of the 1980s... till the 1990s and got to train and test and found they were in serious trouble and spent a large amount of money on AMRAAM so they didn't have to fly within visual range of Soviet fighters in combat... so they don't get their arses handed to them if they ever come up against a competent enemy.
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    Post  Mindstorm Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:59 pm

    If someone want to realize what is really behind the odd…...for not say anything worse……exchange ratio claimed by Lockheed Martin employers for theirs products against unspecified enemy fighter threats, both in computer simulations than in simulations with actual pilots involved, can read those submissions to Australian Parlamient in particular those of Chris Mills and Michael Price (for computer simulations) and Lt.Col Anker Sorensen (a chief pilot personally involved in combat simulations of F-35).


    https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Committees/Senate/Foreign_Affairs_Defence_and_Trade/Joint_fighter/Submissions


    Anyone will easily realise how self-embarrassing tricks are employed without any shame to ridiculously obtain the wanted results to present to scarcely knowledgeable political characters and even several military ones to promote the financial flow toward theirs program.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:52 am

    The thing is that the F-22 is out of production so what are they trying to achieve?

    Are they trying to intimidate a country that currently has Su-30s or is considering buying Su-30s into buying F-35s instead, or will they suggest that perhaps the new build F-15s are the closest they can currently get to an F-22.

    Or with the failure of the F-35 they are feeling a bit vulnerable so they want to pretend their existing fleet of F-22s is worth something?

    What were the conclusions or recomendations with the article... perhaps they sniff blood in the water and think if the USAF wants to put the F-15 back into production and possibly a F-16 variant back into production that maybe they might be able to swing putting the F-22 back into production too.

    It was cut for being too expensive now that the Cold War was over, but the current situation could be considered a new Cold War couldn't it?

    During the first cold war the US president never openly called the opposition leader a murderer with no soul.

    Of course if they did I wonder what the Soviet leader would have said in reply... would it have been as clever as Putin telling him he is looking in a mirror and describing himself.
    Backman
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    Post  Backman Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:59 am

    Then there was the US air marshall who said that the Indian su 30 had the same turn radius as the
    F-22 at red flag exercises. Or something to that effect anyway

    Hmmm the comments got turned off on this video now.

    https://youtu.be/6KBmv6HBltM
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:08 pm

    Razz Embarassed clown lol1
    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2 - Page 4 Ey9PhcgWYAQyJtB?format=jpg&name=large
    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2 - Page 4 Ey9PhchXEAI1lCq?format=jpg&name=large

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:32 am

    Su-30 for Russian Air Force #2 - Page 4 019210
    I think this are Su-34s sunny

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    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:31 am

    They celebrated some time ago the US Navy day with a picture of the Peter the Great I think... at least they have good taste Laughing

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    Big_Gazza
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    Post  Big_Gazza Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:21 am

    No-one ever accuses US Senators of being overly clever... its important after all that they represent their constituents!! Laughing clown

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