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    Syrian War: News #22

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:00 pm

    BEIRUT, LEBANON (4:30 P.M.) – The General Command of the Syrian Arab Army and Armed Forces issued on Sunday two administrative orders ending the retention and summons of reserve officers who have completed three or more years of actual reserve service and for the row of retained officers and individuals who have had actual reserve service of 7 years or more.

    The Syrian Arab News Agency (SANA) quoted the statement of the leadership of the Syrian Army as saying: “We issued two administrative orders ending the retention and recall for April 7th, 2020 of the reserve officers in the civil reserve who have completed three years or more of actual backup service until the date of 1 April 2020.”

    The statement pointed out that “the end of retention and summons to specialized human doctors is issued by order of the Medical Services Department in accordance with the possibility of releasing them and for the ranks of retained officers and individuals who are enrolled in the reserve service before the date of 1-1-2013 who had their actual reserve service 7 years or more until the date of April 1, 2020 ..And for the ranks of the officers and individuals retained and the civil reserves enrolled who obtained a percentage of 30%, excluding those who have a backup call from them,” they added.

    Over the past two years, the Syrian Army has sought to discharge several soldiers who have served in the military for several years past their conscription period.


    https://geopolitics.news/middle-east/syrian-army-issues-new-order-to-discharge-long-serving-soldiers/
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:12 pm

    Tigr M to fight ISIS in desert

    https://twitter.com/200_zoka/status/1244761343191912453
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:41 am

    SAA receives Tigr M to replace T-72 losses

    https://twitter.com/mansourtalk/status/987030092483317760
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    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:09 am

    Turkish destroyed one s-75 launcher and missed many times. Their drones appears to be shittier day after day. Not a recent attack.

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 5 Eujphn10
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:55 pm

    ultimatewarrior wrote:SAA receives Tigr M to replace T-72 losses

    https://twitter.com/mansourtalk/status/987030092483317760
    well it is not exactly the same thing...

    Don't get me wrong,  tigr are useful,  but they are quite different than a Main Battle Tank...

    It is like replacing a su25 with a trainer aircraft without armor and with more limited weapons...
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:15 am

    Well the real question is... did they need T-72s in the first place or would they be better off with cheaper lighter more mobile vehicles...

    Using the example given replacing Su-25s with L39s is a very bad thing if those Su-25s were being used in a CAS role, but if they were being used to train pilots then the L39s would be a much more suitable tool for the job.

    The questions that need to be answered are... were the T-72s critical to the job, or would light vehicles have been more suited, and also are the units getting these tigrs going to be doing the same things or have they been reassigned into a more patrol based job where tigrs would be much better suited to their new roles...

    We need more info really.
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:03 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:SAA receives Tigr M to replace T-72 losses

    https://twitter.com/mansourtalk/status/987030092483317760
    well it is not exactly the same thing...

    Don't get me wrong,  tigr are useful,  but they are quite different than a Main Battle Tank...

    It is like replacing a su25 with a trainer aircraft without armor and with more limited weapons...

    Tigr M is far more potent than early T-72 like T-72A/B/M. Tigr M has thermal which makes it deadly at night. Tigr M can drop man sized target from up to 2 km away at night. T-72A/B/M can't do that.

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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Apr 03, 2020 6:04 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    ultimatewarrior wrote:SAA receives Tigr M to replace T-72 losses

    https://twitter.com/mansourtalk/status/987030092483317760
    well it is not exactly the same thing...

    Don't get me wrong,  tigr are useful,  but they are quite different than a Main Battle Tank...

    It is like replacing a su25 with a trainer aircraft without armor and with more limited weapons...

    Manned planes are going into dustbin of history. These days wars are geared to counter insurgency. Planes like armed drones are way better than Su-25 for modern warfare.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVIC_Cloud_Shadow
    George1
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    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 03, 2020 11:57 am

    Turkish military launches attack against Syrian Army troops in northern Aleppo


    BEIRUT, LEBANON (12:20 P.M.) – The Turkish military has launched a new attack against the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) troops in the northern countryside of the Aleppo Governorate this week.

    According to a field report from the Aleppo countryside, Turkish troops targeted the Syrian Arab Army’s positions near the city of Manbij, injuring a few soldiers in the process.

    The field report said the Turkish military’s attack around the city of Manbij was unprovoked, as the Syrian Army rarely carries out any hostilities in the northern countryside of the Aleppo Governorate.

    The Manbij countryside is where the Russian and Turkish armed forces conduct joint patrols; they have done so for several months now.

    Manbij was captured by the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) in 2016 after a short battle between their troops and the Islamic State (ISIS/ISIL/IS/Daesh).

    Since then, Manbij has been a source of contention between the U.S. and Turkish forces, as the latter demands the withdrawal of the People’s Protection Units (YPG) from the area.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/turkish-military-launches-attack-against-syrian-army-troops-in-northern-aleppo/
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    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:05 pm

    Turkish-backed forces cutoff water supply to 500,000 Syrians in Al-Hasakah

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/turkish-backed-forces-cutoff-water-supply-to-500000-syrians-in-al-hasakah/
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Fri Apr 03, 2020 4:08 pm

    George1 wrote:Turkish-backed forces cutoff water supply to 500,000 Syrians in Al-Hasakah

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/turkish-backed-forces-cutoff-water-supply-to-500000-syrians-in-al-hasakah/

    Terrorists. No wonder Kurds hate Turks.
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri Apr 03, 2020 10:17 pm

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 5 EUrXmeKUUAAXRrh?format=jpg&name=large
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:44 am

    Tigr M is far more potent than early T-72 like T-72A/B/M. Tigr M has thermal which makes it deadly at night. Tigr M can drop man sized target from up to 2 km away at night. T-72A/B/M can't do that.

    You can put thermals in T-72s and they not only have much better fire power they are also rather well protected.

    A 125mm HE Frag shell is vastly more powerful than anything you could put in a Tigr and a HEAT round should enable anything to be dealt with on the battlefield.

    Manned planes are going into dustbin of history. These days wars are geared to counter insurgency. Planes like armed drones are way better than Su-25 for modern warfare.

    But you don't see the Russians send their Su-25s and Su-24/34/35s home now do you.

    Su-25s can cover reasonable distances relatively quickly and deliver quite heavy payloads to targets rather more effectively than any drone currently could...

    Drones are interesting but have not replaced manned aircraft in most roles yet.
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    Post  JohninMK on Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:52 am

    GarryB wrote:

    But you don't see the Russians send their Su-25s and Su-24/34/35s home now do you.

    Drones are interesting but have not replaced manned aircraft in most roles yet.

    There were reports earlier in the week that a couple more Su-24s had trekked down via Iran.

    Many drone roles are new ones rather than replacing manned aircraft.
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    Post  George1 on Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:22 pm

    Turkish military strikes Syrian Army troops again in Al-Raqqa


    BEIRUT, LEBANON (10:20 P.M.) – For the second time on Saturday, the Turkish military has attacked the Syrian Arab Army’s (SAA) positions in the northern countryside of the Al-Raqqa Governorate.

    According to the latest report from Al-Raqqa, the Turkish military, alongside their allied militant forces, launched several artillery shells towards the Syrian Arab Army’s positions in the ‘Ayn ‘Issa countryside.

    No information has been provided about the casualties; however, the earlier attack, resulted in at least two soldiers killed.

    Meanwhile, near the town of Tal Abyad, the Turkish military also struck the Syrian Democratic Forces’ (SDF) posts south of the border.

    A source from the SAA said that neither the Syrian Democratic Forces or Syrian Arab Army has provoked the Turkish military and their proxies.

    The Turkish military has become increasingly aggressive in the Al-Raqqa countryside recently, launching several attacks against both the SAA and SDF troops.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/turkish-military-strikes-syrian-army-troops-again-in-al-raqqa/
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:39 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Tigr M is far more potent than early T-72 like T-72A/B/M. Tigr M has thermal which makes it deadly at night. Tigr M can drop man sized target from up to 2 km away at night. T-72A/B/M can't do that.

    You can put thermals in T-72s and they not only have much better fire power they are also rather well protected.

    A 125mm HE Frag shell is vastly more powerful than anything you could put in a Tigr and a HEAT round should enable anything to be dealt with on the battlefield.

    Manned planes are going into dustbin of history. These days wars are geared to counter insurgency. Planes like armed drones are way better than Su-25 for modern warfare.

    But you don't see the Russians send their Su-25s and Su-24/34/35s home now do you.

    Su-25s can cover reasonable distances relatively quickly and deliver quite heavy payloads to targets rather more effectively than any drone currently could...

    Drones are interesting but have not replaced manned aircraft in most roles yet.

    MBT are far ore expensive than MRAP. For 100 MBT you can get thousands of MRAP. These days wars are counter insurgancy. MBT are not needed. MRAP is far more survivable in modern warfare than MBT.

    No country is making manned planes anymore. Jet powered drones like Cloud Shadow is the future of warfare. Modern warfare is counter insurgency. Manned jets are too expensive for that. Manned planes are too difficult to train pilots.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVIC_Cloud_Shadow

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    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:00 am

    MBT are far ore expensive than MRAP. For 100 MBT you can get thousands of MRAP. These days wars are counter insurgancy. MBT are not needed. MRAP is far more survivable in modern warfare than MBT.

    Not really. A modern t-72 with thermals and good optics can go on a hill and cover all a small city or bug village and fire from 2-3km HE shells.

    A MRAP has a small gun and is totally useless from log distances.

    In terms of price modern IFV or MRAPs are not cheap at all.

    No country is making manned planes anymore. Jet powered drones like Cloud Shadow is the future of warfare. Modern warfare is counter insurgency. Manned jets are too expensive for that. Manned planes are too difficult to train pilots.

    Modern jet drone will be just as expensive as a Su-25 if not more because you also need a pilot, a ground station, a satelitte to controle it, a much more electronics inside for the control. But the drone will have less weapons and less survivability.
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:41 pm

    Isos wrote:
    MBT are far ore expensive than MRAP. For 100 MBT you can get thousands of MRAP. These days wars are counter insurgancy. MBT are not needed. MRAP is far more survivable in modern warfare than MBT.

    Not really. A modern t-72 with thermals and good optics can go on a hill and cover all a small city or bug village and fire from 2-3km HE shells.

    A MRAP has a small gun and is totally useless from log distances.

    In terms of price modern IFV or MRAPs are not cheap at all.

    No country is making manned planes anymore. Jet powered drones like Cloud Shadow is the future of warfare. Modern warfare is counter insurgency. Manned jets are too expensive for that. Manned planes are too difficult to train pilots.

    Modern jet drone will be just as expensive as a Su-25 if not more because you also need a pilot, a ground station, a satelitte to controle it, a much more electronics inside for the control. But the drone will have less weapons and less survivability.

    It's easy to train drone pilots. Everyone can be a drone pilot. It's difficult to train jet pilots because of physical requirements. Not many people can qualify for jet pilot training. For every Su-25 you can have hundreds of jet powered drones like Cloud Shadow.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVIC_Cloud_Shadow
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:11 am

    MBT are far ore expensive than MRAP.

    They are but they are also much more survivable... you can make a T-72 able to survive direct hits from TOW... no level of protection could do that for any MRAP.

    Also more importantly when this conflict is over the crews of the T-72 are more likely to be alive and can man the vehicle in a real conflict against a real enemy that is also equipped with tanks. MRAPs are really only light patrol vehicles for anti terrorist operations... when the west pulls out of Afghanistan and Iraq they will likely dump their MRAPs rather than ship them home...

    For 100 MBT you can get thousands of MRAP.

    MBTs will have a use beyond this period of anti terrorist fighting and can control rather larger areas of ground. The biggest gun you could fit to an MRAP like a Tigr-M would be a 30mm turret which is not cheap, but its effective anti armour range would be about 2km with the gun and perhaps 2km for point targets and 4kms for area targets. Compared with a T-72 that could potshot targets out to 4-5km with the gun in the right conditions... the 125mm will hit targets out to about 11km with HE shells though obviously much less than that at night or small point targets, but being a direct fire gun it is relatively accurate out to probably 4-5km during the day. and 3-4km at night.

    These days wars are counter insurgancy.

    Gun platforms are always useful in any conflict... from a 23mm cannon on the back of a light truck through 57mm guns on the back of a heavy truck or a 125mm gun on a heavy armoured tracked platform like an old model tank.

    MBT are not needed.

    Of course they are needed... they are very useful when correctly used.

    MRAP is far more survivable in modern warfare than MBT.

    Not even close.

    Don't get me wrong MRAPs have their use and save a lot of lives over using just unarmoured vehicles... their mobility is excellent and their fire power is reasonable... even a HMG mount with thermals and stabilised mount makes them a very capable system and effective... but in places where RPGs are plentiful a MBT is much safer, though not completely safe either.

    No country is making manned planes anymore. Jet powered drones like Cloud Shadow is the future of warfare. Modern warfare is counter insurgency. Manned jets are too expensive for that. Manned planes are too difficult to train pilots.

    Not only are the US still making F-35s now and B-21s in the future, they are also planning to put F-15s back in to production, while Russia is producing a wide range of manned aircraft. Training pilots requires a lot of effort and money but it is money that is being spent...


    Modern jet drone will be just as expensive as a Su-25 if not more because you also need a pilot, a ground station, a satelitte to controle it, a much more electronics inside for the control. But the drone will have less weapons and less survivability.

    Agreed... there are no drones with the protection and fire power of a single Su-25... and there is that dichotomy... a third world enemy or terrorist enemy would generally not have the EM capacity to effect the datalinks so you could probably use drones, but their air defence is probably so weak it makes more sense to use the Su-25. Against a first world opponent a drone would be easier to neutralise than a manned aircraft and that is the problem... a drone will either be very cheap and therefore ineffective, or expensive and then not expendible... cheap drones could be eliminated as a threat even just by shooting them down as they appear, or jamming them, while expensive drones couldn't be risked... so with drones... cheap or expensive... wont be effective in the job of supporting the troops.

    Su-25s would be much more useful but when the air defence is too strong you need to soften the air defences first... perhaps by using some drones and stand off SEAD platforms like the Su-34 to eliminate radar and electronics positions first with ARMs and bombs dropped from above the effective ceiling of the air defences...

    It's easy to train drone pilots. Everyone can be a drone pilot. It's difficult to train jet pilots because of physical requirements. Not many people can qualify for jet pilot training. For every Su-25 you can have hundreds of jet powered drones like Cloud Shadow.

    Drones are easier to take out and not as effective in the CAS role as actual manned aircraft are. Jet pilots are being trained all the time...
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:32 am

    GarryB wrote:
    MBT are far ore expensive than MRAP.

    They are but they are also much more survivable... you can make a T-72 able to survive direct hits from TOW... no level of protection could do that for any MRAP.

    Also more importantly when this conflict is over the crews of the T-72 are more likely to be alive and can man the vehicle in a real conflict against a real enemy that is also equipped with tanks. MRAPs are really only light patrol vehicles for anti terrorist operations... when the west pulls out of Afghanistan and Iraq they will likely dump their MRAPs rather than ship them home...

    For 100 MBT you can get thousands of MRAP.

    MBTs will have a use beyond this period of anti terrorist fighting and can control rather larger areas of ground. The biggest gun you could fit to an MRAP like a Tigr-M would be a 30mm turret which is not cheap, but its effective anti armour range would be about 2km with the gun and perhaps 2km for point targets and 4kms for area targets. Compared with a T-72 that could potshot targets out to 4-5km with the gun in the right conditions... the 125mm will hit targets out to about 11km with HE shells though obviously much less than that at night or small point targets, but being a direct fire gun it is relatively accurate out to probably 4-5km during the day. and 3-4km at night.

    These days wars are counter insurgancy.

    Gun platforms are always useful in any conflict... from a 23mm cannon on the back of a light truck through 57mm guns on the back of a heavy truck or a 125mm gun on a heavy armoured tracked platform like an old model tank.

    MBT are not needed.

    Of course they are needed... they are very useful when correctly used.

    MRAP is far more survivable in modern warfare than MBT.

    Not even close.

    Don't get me wrong MRAPs have their use and save a lot of lives over using just unarmoured vehicles... their mobility is excellent and their fire power is reasonable... even a HMG mount with thermals and stabilised mount makes them a very capable system and effective... but in places where RPGs are plentiful a MBT is much safer, though not completely safe either.

    No country is making manned planes anymore. Jet powered drones like Cloud Shadow is the future of warfare. Modern warfare is counter insurgency. Manned jets are too expensive for that. Manned planes are too difficult to train pilots.

    Not only are the US still making F-35s now and B-21s in the future, they are also planning to put F-15s back in to production, while Russia is producing a wide range of manned aircraft.  Training pilots requires a lot of effort and money but it is money that is being spent...


    Modern jet drone will be just as expensive as a Su-25 if not more because you also need a pilot, a ground station, a satelitte to controle it, a much more electronics inside for the control. But the drone will have less weapons and less survivability.

    Agreed... there are no drones with the protection and fire power of a single Su-25... and there is that dichotomy... a third world enemy or terrorist enemy would generally not have the EM capacity to effect the datalinks so you could probably use drones, but their air defence is probably so weak it makes more sense to use the Su-25. Against a first world opponent a drone would be easier to neutralise than a manned aircraft and that is the problem... a drone will either be very cheap and therefore ineffective, or expensive and then not expendible... cheap drones could be eliminated as a threat even just by shooting them down as they appear, or jamming them, while expensive drones couldn't be risked... so with drones... cheap or expensive... wont be effective in the job of supporting the troops.

    Su-25s would be much more useful but when the air defence is too strong you need to soften the air defences first... perhaps by using some drones and stand off SEAD platforms like the Su-34 to eliminate radar and electronics positions first with ARMs and bombs dropped from above the effective ceiling of the air defences...

    It's easy to train drone pilots. Everyone can be a drone pilot. It's difficult to train jet pilots because of physical requirements. Not many people can qualify for jet pilot training. For every Su-25 you can have hundreds of jet powered drones like Cloud Shadow.

    Drones are easier to take out and not as effective in the CAS role as actual manned aircraft are. Jet pilots are being trained all the time...

    Modern jet powered attack drones like Cloud Shadow is huge compared to Su-25 and carry much heavier payload including stand off missiles. If Russia used drones in Idlib then wouldn't lost Su-24 and Su-25 pilots to ground fire. Modern drones can be directly controlled from hundreds of km away where pilots are safe in mobile control trucks. Also drones are much cheaper to service and build. Almost all planes used in Libya war for instance are attack drones. Manned jets days are numbered. Russia is no longer developing anymore manned combat planes. All combat planes under development are drones.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVIC_Cloud_Shadow

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    Post  jhelb on Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:They are but they are also much more survivable... you can make a T-72 able to survive direct hits from TOW... no level of protection could do that for any MRAP.

    MRAP is just a very bad design - The height and steepness of the dropdown stairs, not sufficiently effective against Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFP) etc.

    Russia should develop an MRAP with T-72 type protection but not follow the bad design of the MRAP.
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    Post  Manov on Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:49 pm

    [quote="ultimatewarrior"][quote="Rodion_Romanovic"]
    ultimatewarrior wrote:

    Manned planes are going into dustbin of history. These days wars are geared to counter insurgency. Planes like armed drones are way better than Su-25 for modern warfare.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVIC_Cloud_Shadow

    Please, it is more than demostrated that when a UAV force shows against an enemy with a minimum air defence, drones fall pretty easily. Against low tech enemies, sure, they are fantastic, but against a competent army, not so much.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:04 pm

    Su-25s would be much more useful but when the air defence is too strong you need to soften the air defences first... perhaps by using some drones and stand off SEAD platforms like the Su-34 to eliminate radar and electronics positions first with ARMs and bombs dropped from above the effective ceiling of the air defences...

    Are you serious ? Su-25 can carry kh-25T and kh-58 anti radar missiles. It is very manoeuvrable at low altitude and can carry fuel tanks. It is the perfect aircraft for SEAD/DEAD. Not to mention its armor and engine separate. Much better than su-34. The advantage of su-34 is the ecm pods and air to air missiles.

    Russia should develop an MRAP with T-72 type protection but not follow the bad design of the MRAP.

    They already did. BMP-T.


    Last edited by Isos on Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:07 pm

    Modern jet powered attack drones like Cloud Shadow is huge compared to Su-25 and carry much heavier payload including stand off missiles. If Russia used drones in Idlib then wouldn't lost Su-24 and Su-25 pilots to ground fire.

    Which drone can carry more than a su25 ? No one. Your chinese exemple is a joke, go look for data before spreading bullshit.

    If Russia used drones in syria instead of sukhois, Turkey would have installed a no fly zone with its f-16.

    MRAP is far more survivable in modern warfare than MBT.

    No protection. Huge. Not enough armed. Easy target for TOW/kornet teams.
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    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 5 Empty Re: Syrian War: News #22

    Post  Hole on Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:48 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Su-25s would be much more useful but when the air defence is too strong you need to soften the air defences first... perhaps by using some drones and stand off SEAD platforms like the Su-34 to eliminate radar and electronics positions first with ARMs and bombs dropped from above the effective ceiling of the air defences...

    Are you serious ? Su-25 can carry kh-25T and kh-58 anti radar missiles. It is very manoeuvrable at low altitude and can carry fuel tanks. It is the perfect aircraft for SEAD/DEAD. Not to mention its armor and engine separate. Much better than su-34. The advantage of su-34 is the ecm pods and air to air missiles.

    Russia should develop an MRAP with T-72 type protection but not follow the bad design of the MRAP.

    They already did. BMP-T.

    The Su-34 has the same or even better armor then the Su-25. That´s why it can be used for CAS. But it is much more expensive then the Su-25, so the best choice for such missions are upgraded Su-25´s.

    BMPT. Without the -. Smile

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