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    Syrian War: News #22

    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:51 pm

    MRAP´s were developed as cheap substitutions for APC´s and AIFV´s. A truck with some armor, nothing more. And it has to be so high to be safe from mines.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:11 pm


    The Su-34 has the same or even better armor then the Su-25. That´s why it can be used for CAS. But it is much more expensive then the Su-25, so the best choice for such missions are upgraded Su-25´s.

    Only the cockpit. Su-34 would suffer both engines destruction if it is hit by a missile because they are close to each other and unprotected contrary to the su-25.

    And it has to be so high to be safe from mines.

    A mine with hollow charge will go through easily. They are mostly designed to counter 2001-2012 guerillas/terrorists.

    They are so high and so big that atgm can be used easily from max range. IED are not the main threat anymore but atgm are. A blast of kornet in a MRAP full of soldiers will burn half of them badly and destroy the vehicle. And those vehicles have notging to protect themselves from atgm.

    Just all the ATGM supplied during syrian and yemen war will be enough gor the next 10 years of conflicts anywhere in Africa/Middle east.

    Small drones with hollow charge from the top will also be deadly but they are more complicated to use.

    Then western will start making smaller vehicle with APS and IED will be weapon of choice again.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:34 am

    Modern jet powered attack drones like Cloud Shadow is huge compared to Su-25 and carry much heavier payload including stand off missiles. If Russia used drones in Idlib then wouldn't lost Su-24 and Su-25 pilots to ground fire. Modern drones can be directly controlled from hundreds of km away where pilots are safe in mobile control trucks. Also drones are much cheaper to service and build. Almost all planes used in Libya war for instance are attack drones. Manned jets days are numbered. Russia is no longer developing anymore manned combat planes. All combat planes under development are drones.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVIC_Cloud_Shadow

    Do you even read what you post?

    The Cloud Shadow is huge and is a HALE... a High Altitude Long Endurance armed drone that could never off CLOSE Air Support... based on the link you provided this drone weighs less than the weapon payload of the Su-25... the entire drone is 3.2 tons with an amazing weapon capacity of 400kgs... that is pathetic.

    Sure if Russia had used drones they wouldn't have lost any pilots... but they also would not have hit any targets either and would have spent rather more money for that pathetic return. Drone pilots are not safe... the terrorists could easily determine where they are and attack them with IEDs.

    Drones like this Chinese drones are much more expensive than a cheap simple fighter aircraft. The war in Libya is a civil war and meaningless for the Russians who face HATO and the US. Russia is currently introducing Su-57s... a manned aircraft... they are also introducing lots of transport types, a bomber type and also they are working on a replacement for the Su-25 in the CAS role and a high speed replacement for the MiG-31 interceptor.

    MRAP is just a very bad design - The height and steepness of the dropdown stairs, not sufficiently effective against Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFP) etc.

    Russia should develop an MRAP with T-72 type protection but not follow the bad design of the MRAP.

    MRAPs have their purpose, but that purpose is patrol in environments where the main threat is land mines and IEDs and small arms rather than RPGs and ATGMs.

    Russia is in the process of transitioning into a new group of families of vehicles... heavy vehicles, medium vehicles, and light vehicles. Their Typhoon family of vehicles would benefit from development of MRAP platforms in terms of mine resistance and light weight armour options, but would not be MRAPs as such.

    Russian paramilitary forces would benefit from MRAPs but the Army not so much as they really do not replace BTRs or BMPs.

    The Su-34 has the same or even better armor then the Su-25. That´s why it can be used for CAS. But it is much more expensive then the Su-25, so the best choice for such missions are upgraded Su-25´s.

    The Su-34 is a medium to deep strike aircraft and is designed for low level very high speed penetration to attack specific targets, which is completely different from the Su-25 that flys low and slow and loiters around the front line attacking targets causing ground forces problems.

    The Su-34 is Iskander that flys low and fast, Su-25 is a 152mm artillery piece attacking targets that hold up the advance or cause problems for ground forces moving forward.

    MRAP´s were developed as cheap substitutions for APC´s and AIFV´s. A truck with some armor, nothing more. And it has to be so high to be safe from mines.

    Sort of... MRAPs were developed to better protect troops who would otherwise be operating in unarmoured vehicles like humvees. Before they were used in combat most Humvee crews assumed because of their size and weight that the Humvee was armoured and had bullet proof glass. It is not and does not so while they were driving them like they were bullet proof they were not. Step one was to put armour on them which make a heavy big vehicle even heavier and unusable, so they looked to alternatives and MRAPs were the solution short of using APCs which had better protection from small arms but were not necessarily better protected from land mines and IEDS which would immobilise them and kill the contents.

    MRAPs are also generally wheeled vehicles so have better mobility on roads and lower operating costs than tracked vehicles like BTRs and BMPs.

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    Post  jhelb on Tue Apr 07, 2020 11:40 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Russian paramilitary forces would benefit from MRAPs but the Army not so much as they really do not replace BTRs or BMPs.

    Not sure if MRAP would be of any help. Apart from the huge problem involved in moving MRAPs from one place to the another, there are several limitations that the MRAP has.


    MRAP is not at all effective against Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFP), which use an explosive charge to propel a specially shaped metal plate at high velocity while simultaneously deforming it into an armor-piercing projectile. In Iraq MRAPs have been blown to bits.

    Makes more sense for Russia to develop technologies that can detect and neutralize IEDs before Russian paramilitary, Army enters that area.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:52 pm

    MRAP is not at all effective against Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFP), which use an explosive charge to propel a specially shaped metal plate at high velocity while simultaneously deforming it into an armor-piercing projectile. In Iraq MRAPs have been blown to bits.

    EFP are very exotic weapons that terrorists in Iraq have no access to... don't confuse EFPs with IEDs which are just lumps of explosives with rocks and bricks and nuts and bolts packed in with them to create shrapnel.

    An example of an EFP would be in a sensor fused submunition used by Soviet and Russian artillery in cluster bombs and rocket artillery where the EFP is released in mid air and deploys a parachute to slow its fall and then it scans the ground below it for metal targets... when it detects one it explodes which deforms a metal plate in the warhead into a shuttle cock shaped projectile that is directed down at the top armour of the target at about 2-3km/s or so.

    Such penetrators are blunt and obviously because they are formed during an explosion can't be made from hard penetrator materials otherwise they would shatter.

    They can penetrate the thin upper armour of vehicles but are not ideal and certainly not as effective as an RPG HEAT warhead... though they do have the advantage of being effective from a distance away like from 200m above the target whereas most HEAT rounds need to detonate close to the surface they are to penetrate.

    Makes more sense for Russia to develop technologies that can detect and neutralize IEDs before Russian paramilitary, Army enters that area.

    They already have... they attach them to their ICBM truck brigades to clear the way of mines and IEDS... Combat Approved has a video on them:



    They also have other mine clearing vehicles...



    Either way it makes sense to have mine and IED resistant vehicles anyway...
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:03 pm

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 000147
    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 000427
    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 000524
    These jammers are there to make IED´s useless.
    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:19 pm

    Hole wrote:Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 000147
    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 000427
    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 000524
    These jammers are there to make IED´s useless.

    I remember reporting how IED jammers developed (in the Federation) covered an area hundreds of meters in diameter. They jam all the relevant frequences, but like ELINT/SIGINT they detect the direction and location of the EM emissions attempting to detonate them, so they'll know exactly were the insurgents are hiding and when and where to attack!
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    Post  Hole on Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:53 pm

    This system is mainly used to jam cell phone or radio signals to prevent moderate unicorns from exploding IED´s, but it can also trigger an explosion so that an bomb explodes a few metres in front of the vehicle.

    For larger convois there is also Infauna:

    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 000254
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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:21 pm

    If they use long wires or pressure button instead of radio signals to detonate the IEDs all those fancy EW are useless.

    IMO MRAP in russian army will replace some truck that used to carry troops. BTR and BMP are not menat to be replaced by such vehicles.
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    Post  kvs on Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:40 am

    Isos wrote:If they use long wires or pressure button instead of radio signals to detonate the IEDs all those fancy EW are useless.

    IMO MRAP in russian army will replace some truck that used to carry troops. BTR and BMP are not menat to be replaced by such vehicles.

    You are wrong. EW can induce large currents in those control wires causing them to detonate. A typical geomagnetic (auroral) storm
    in the ionosphere can induce several amps of current in the Australian electrical grid and similarly distributed systems. The IED control
    wires would have to be buried a few meters undeground to resist magnetic pulse induced detonation. That will never happen.

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:59 am

    kvs wrote:
    Isos wrote:If they use long wires or pressure button instead of radio signals to detonate the IEDs all those fancy EW are useless.

    IMO MRAP in russian army will replace some truck that used to carry troops. BTR and BMP are not menat to be replaced by such vehicles.

    You are wrong.  EW can induce large currents in those control wires causing them to detonate.   A typical geomagnetic (auroral) storm
    in the ionosphere can induce several amps of current in the Australian electrical grid and similarly distributed systems.    The IED control
    wires would have to be buried a few meters undeground to resist magnetic pulse induced detonation.    That will never happen.


    This is correct. The Lisva vehicle in the ranks of the strategic forces does this very exact thing. It's also alluded that Peresvet is a hybrid DEW/ECM, a Laser/Maser/Graser combination to not just melt/burn munitions with a intense pencil beam Laser, and with the Maser (focused microwaves) and Graser (focused gamma radiation beam) to fry the electronics by inducing high current electromagnetic electrostatic discharge, like a direct beam EMP.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:41 am

    IMO MRAP in russian army will replace some truck that used to carry troops. BTR and BMP are not menat to be replaced by such vehicles.

    MRAP are patrol vehicles in places where small arms fire and mines are the primary threat... they are not really troop transports.

    The FSB or MVD are more likely to use MRAPs than the Russian army.
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    Post  Hole on Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:15 pm

    Lets put this to rest. MRAP is a western term, Russia uses armored trucks. And if you look at the Taifun and Tornado series they will be everywhere.
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    Post  ultimatewarrior on Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:25 pm

    Joint Russian Turkish patrol in Idlib got stopped shortly before Nayrab by Turkey backed terrorists

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/militants-confront-russian-military-in-idlib-force-them-to-turn-around-video/
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    Post  JohninMK on Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:48 pm


    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 EVLFebTU4AklhZu?format=jpg&name=large
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    Post  nomadski on Thu Apr 09, 2020 9:33 pm

    I have wondered why the Usraelis not attack Iranian supply planes, before they land ?  What is stopping them?  Is it a technical or political problem? The supplies can be air dropped by large parachute. Or plane land on temporary airfield. Or strong road. Any views?

    Any device planted on  or near road to stop traffic, necessarily must be near surface, not very deep. Must show on different scan from air by drone. Or scan from ground vehicle, drone vehicle. The Turk vehicle can take point and lead the patrol. This way less likely convoy hit. Any Turk volunteer? Also any civilians using roads for trade, can help volunteer to keep open. Station guards along roads, to stop Rat activity. Farmers could be good option to ask for help.
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    Post  ahmedfire on Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:33 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 EVLFebTU4AklhZu?format=jpg&name=large

    I guess no AD systems were existed there at that time .
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    Post  nomadski on Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:56 pm


    Some missiles still get through. Even with AD system, not 100 percent of yank or Usrael missile intercepted. But these are against fixed target of runways. Using GPS. Still the question remains. Why do Israeli not attack Iranian cargo plane directly? Because in the past, they hit ground target and destroyed Iranian cargo and killed personnel. To my mind, there is no difference. Killing pilots or ground crew. Destroying cargo or cargo and plane together. In any case I think it is time for Iranians to reply in kind. Do Usrael export Jaffa oranges? Well why not target the ship that carry them or hit the crates, once they land at port, in third country? This way the Russians not involved in Syria and better than doing nothing. Letting the zionasty get away with murder.
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    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:39 pm


    Do not waste even only a single second of yoyr life on this garbage.

    ISI is an Israeli PR mean ,nothing more nothing less.

    It lost the final part of its already almost not-existing reputation with "satellite" shots just of the Al Shyrat airbase with its magical yellow circles around phantasious points of imapct of US BGM-109s; we are still waiting its satellite images of the ....alleged.....10 weapon depots hits (obviously in spite being openly leg-pulled and provoked to do that ,they will not dare to furtherly produce other low level fakes on the event ,because a lot of guys was at the time and are stil today only in wait with video and pics never publied after the strike to even more demolish those clowns) or others, even most phantasious, satellite pics of the Хмеймм airbase with several aircraft and helicopter destroyed......in the REALITY someone has not advised the pilots of those vehicles that them had been destroyed because in the folowing hours and days all participated to the air operations in the usual way Razz Razz Razz Razz

    At least they are good at provide free laughters for Federation's operatives at Хмеймм Laughing Laughing Laughing

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:28 pm

    "Moderate Opposition Idlib"

    https://twitter.com/200_zoka/status/1249279001480306688

    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK on Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:35 pm

    Special Ops Joint Task Force-OIR (Iraq/Syria)
    @SOJTFOIR
    · Apr 13
    A USAF F-35A Lightning II fighter jet flies near the #ATG in Syria, April 10, 2020. Coalition and partner forces continue to strike at extremist organizations in Syria despite COVID-19, reflecting the world-wide unity to see an enduring defeat delivered against Daesh #DefeatDaesh


    Syrian War: News #22 - Page 6 EVfS_APWsAACnYs?format=jpg&name=360x360
    Manov
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    Post  Manov on Tue Apr 14, 2020 6:37 pm

    [quote="JohninMK"]Special Ops Joint Task Force-OIR (Iraq/Syria)
    @SOJTFOIR
    · Apr 13
    A USAF F-35A Lightning II fighter jet flies near the #ATG in Syria, April 10, 2020. Coalition and partner forces continue to strike at extremist organizations in Syria despite COVID-19, reflecting the world-wide unity to see an enduring defeat delivered against Daesh #DefeatDaesh



    lol, those think tank journalist are so corrupt.
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    Post  JohninMK on Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:33 am

    Manov wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Special Ops Joint Task Force-OIR (Iraq/Syria)
    @SOJTFOIR
    · Apr 13
    A USAF F-35A Lightning II fighter jet flies near the #ATG in Syria, April 10, 2020. Coalition and partner forces continue to strike at extremist organizations in Syria despite COVID-19, reflecting the world-wide unity to see an enduring defeat delivered against Daesh #DefeatDaesh



    lol, those think tank journalist are so corrupt.
    Where does a "think tank journalist" come into it? That is a an official US military tweet.
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    Post  Manov on Wed Apr 15, 2020 2:27 am

    JohninMK wrote:
    Manov wrote:
    JohninMK wrote:Special Ops Joint Task Force-OIR (Iraq/Syria)
    @SOJTFOIR
    · Apr 13
    A USAF F-35A Lightning II fighter jet flies near the #ATG in Syria, April 10, 2020. Coalition and partner forces continue to strike at extremist organizations in Syria despite COVID-19, reflecting the world-wide unity to see an enduring defeat delivered against Daesh #DefeatDaesh



    lol, those think tank journalist are so corrupt.
    Where does a "think tank journalist" come into it? That is a an official US military tweet.

    well, thats worse! xD
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Apr 15, 2020 8:54 am

    Official US military = will be in cushy think tank job in a couple of years time... he just got the time scale wrong... Twisted Evil

    $150 million dollars of US taxpayers plane supports Illegal occupation and invasion force and supports terrorist annexation of oil fields... so someone in the US who is already a billionaire can make a little more money... meanwhile thousands of Americans are dying because they spent more money in one year on military adventurism than the rest of the world spends combined that could have been better spent to give americans healthcare and education they clearly so desperately need...

    Would be more accurate...

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