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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6

    Stealthflanker
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:37 am

    Isn't the radar blocker already part of the plan from the day 1 of Su-57's inception ?
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 29, 2020 1:46 pm

    The question is whether those nozzles mean izd. 30 or can they be installed on existing izd. 117? Showing them on a plane which should be the export version gives a hint that they could opt for the second option IMHO.

    I would think if they developed stealthy sawtooth engine nozzles that they could fit them to either engine... as both would probably benefit wouldn't they?

    Su-57 concept of dodging an opponent first spot first fire missile and then outmaneuvering the opponent aircraft in a dogfight is becoming difficult. It is no longer mig-21 vs f-4.

    They are still called missiles for a reason... the PK against an aware enemy with modern sophisticated EW equipment is going to be pretty low, and with stealthy enemies not really carrying that many missiles to begin with it will often come down to a gun fight... where good manouver performance becomes important.

    The 9M100 missile is intended to be an anti missile missile too so even if you can't jam them having a bundle of 6-10 anti missile missiles could render the F-35 or F-22 unarmed when they get close...

    This image settles that the fans will be visible and that blockers need to be installed.

    They always mentioned blockers as being a thing because S shaped intakes are shit.

    Isn't the radar blocker already part of the plan from the day 1 of Su-57's inception ?

    The Su-35 and MiG-35 have mesh screens that are raised during takeoffs and landings to prevent large stones and foreign objects entering the air intakes and damaging the engines... I would think similar screens further back could be used to maximise internal reflection of radar waves entering the intakes.

    The RAM coatings inside the intakes will chip the strength of the radar returns with each bounce...

    Edit: I should also say yes... AFAIK radar blockers were part of the plan for the Su-57s...


    Last edited by GarryB on Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
    LMFS
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:56 pm

    GarryB wrote:I would think if they developed stealthy sawtooth engine nozzles that they could fit them to either engine... as both would probably benefit wouldn't they?

    There is more to engine stealth than just the nozzle (the F-35 has blockers for instance), but I guess it would help and see no reason why it would not be compatible with the older engines...

    Stealthflanker wrote:Isn't the radar blocker already part of the plan from the day 1 of Su-57's inception ?

    Correct
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:14 pm

    kvs wrote:
    william.boutros wrote:
    Isos wrote:Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 Eegoh010

    This image settles that the fans will be visible and that blockers need to be installed.

    Only if the radar is located above the plane of the jet.   For any ground radar they are invisible.   As for being detected in
    the air by other jets, that was never the objective of stealth.


    It's the opposite. If the enemy radar is above the su-57, its signal will bounce on the wing and never go inside the engine.

    If it is bellow the su-57, the signal will go inside but will bounce ten times before coming back.

    The only time the radar's signal will go inside and bounce on the engines is when the radar is at the same altitude.

    But even then, su-57 will be supercruising so the air intakes of the engine will be smaller, and the radar blocker will have two fonction. From what I understood it will be similar to this drawing with the radar blocker being the movable part in front of the engine.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 Main-q10
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:05 pm

    This is the patent with the radar blockers, the cross section is taken right before the compressor:

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 Blocke10
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:56 pm

    From Army 2020

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 EgklNmHUYAAc76G?format=jpg&name=large
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 EgklPEIVgAAGyof?format=jpg&name=large
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 EgklQQLVoAElfk3?format=jpg&name=large
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 EgklRXxUwAEQykY?format=jpg&name=large

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    Post  Hole on Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:04 pm

    Haters will claim that not only russian ships, but also russian planes generate huge plumes of "smoke" lol!
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    Post  kvs on Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:32 pm

    Isos wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    william.boutros wrote:
    Isos wrote:Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 Eegoh010

    This image settles that the fans will be visible and that blockers need to be installed.

    Only if the radar is located above the plane of the jet.   For any ground radar they are invisible.   As for being detected in
    the air by other jets, that was never the objective of stealth.


    It's the opposite. If the enemy radar is above the su-57, its signal will bounce on the wing and never go inside the engine.

    If it is bellow the su-57, the signal will go inside but will bounce ten times before coming back.

    The only time the radar's signal will go inside and bounce on the engines is when the radar is at the same altitude.

    But even then, su-57 will be supercruising so the air intakes of the engine will be smaller, and the radar blocker will have two fonction. From what I understood it will be similar to this drawing with the radar blocker being the movable part in front of the engine.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 Main-q10

    That graphic is totally irrelevant for the Su-57. It misses completely the scoops at the base of the intakes. So the little zig zags will not be
    easily zagging back to the line of sight of the radar. And in fact, the radar beam will bounce off the scoop bottom before it gets inside the intake.

    Opposite. bounce
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:40 pm

    I shared the graphic to show that the intake must be smaller at supersonic speed for air flow not for radar.

    Su-57 will have a radar blocker that will also control de air flow. And it will be placed like the moving thing above the "auxilliary door" on the graphic.

    But yes that graphic has nothing to do with su57. It's about Concorde.
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:12 pm

    Isos wrote:I shared the graphic to show that the intake must be smaller at supersonic speed for air flow not for radar.

    Su-57 will have a radar blocker that will also control de air flow. And it will be placed like the moving thing above the "auxilliary door" on the graphic.

    But yes that graphic has nothing to do with su57. It's about Concorde.

    Those are the variable ramps of an adjustable supersonic intake, they have nothing to do with radar blockers. The trajectories are the supersonic shocks. Radar blockers are placed right before the engines and were represented in the patent as a mesh. Some images of real radar blockers below:

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 7ba23d11
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 C747d710

    As you can see, they can share functions with the inlet vanes of the engine. And given modern compressor blades are composite, the actual return from them can be a far cry from what it would be expected in legacy designs...

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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:49 pm

    https://findpatent.ru/img_show/12839574.html

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 12839510

    Here is the full patent. It's what I described rather than what is on your picture (from what I understand...).

    Fanart :

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 Botzzo10

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    Post  LMFS on Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:46 pm

    @Isos:

    I see no conflict between what I posted and the patent, in fact it specifies a series of possibilities on how to implement the blocker, with a mix of radial, cylindrical and mesh structures. Maybe I misunderstood you referring the variable ramps as the blocker?

    The fan art you post looks related to mesh screens for take off, they seem too thin, forward positioned and movable, just like the screens in the Flanker. IMHO this is not what the blocker looks like, it is in place all the time from what we know and very close to the engine.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:56 pm

    Again that's just what I undertood. I never saw anything in english or real pictures of them.

    Anyway the design is already hiding half of the engine. But like Garry said the little amount of signal going in will bounce multiple times in the intakes made out of stealthy design and will be absorbed so much that it won't have any power to go back to enemy radar. And that's only if the enemy radar is at the same altitude which won't be the case most of the time and the su-57 can just go bellow 500m and hide the intakes with the wings...
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:45 am

    My understanding is that the front blades of the engine in the Blackjack have RAM coatings too to reduce radar return...

    They know what they are doing...
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    Post  LMFS on Sun Aug 30, 2020 12:15 pm

    Isos wrote:Again that's just what I undertood. I never saw anything in english or real pictures of them.

    Anyway the design is already hiding half of the engine. But like Garry said the little amount of signal going in will bounce multiple times in the intakes made out of stealthy design and will be absorbed so much that it won't have any power to go back to enemy radar. And that's only if the enemy radar is at the same altitude which won't be the case most of the time and the su-57 can just go bellow 500m and hide the intakes with the wings...

    Fair enough. I agree the compressors only get exposed in certain conditions, but with the blocker they freed the pilot to fulfil the mission without caring about that or being tactically limited, I think it is the right thing to do
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu Sep 10, 2020 3:17 pm

    RCS measurement of an Su-57 model in Voronezh.

    I found this image laying around in my harddrive but i forgot where i got it in the first place.

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 48402810

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    Post  jaguar_br on Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:48 pm

    When is this photo from?

    Unlike prototypes and even serial, this mock-up has a serrated radome... Did they find it unnecessary?
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    Post  Hole on Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:54 pm

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 H18a4213
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 H18a4215
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 H18a4214
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:41 am

    jaguar_br wrote:When is this photo from?

    Unlike prototypes and even serial, this mock-up has a serrated radome... Did they find it unnecessary?

    It's been sitting on my hard drive for maybe 1-2 years now. Anyway the model being tested is the static T-50 KNI.

    Regarding serrations It's not necessarily need to be visible in final production. It can be internal.
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    Post  LMFS on Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:40 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:Regarding serrations It's not necessarily need to be visible in final production. It can be internal.

    In fact the radome for the Su-57 appears to be different to that of other models until now. AFAIK serrated edges are needed where there is an electrical discontinuity in the fuselage, those panel covers that do not need permanent access can be closed so that continuity is not lost. Maybe the increased reliability of the AESA makes frequently accessing the radome and hence serrated edges unnecessary?
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    Post  Stealthflanker on Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:15 am

    LMFS wrote:

    In fact the radome for the Su-57 appears to be different to that of other models until now. AFAIK serrated edges are needed where there is an electrical discontinuity in the fuselage, those panel covers that do not need permanent access can be closed so that continuity is not lost. Maybe the increased reliability of the AESA makes frequently accessing the radome and hence serrated edges unnecessary?

    It would still be needed mainly to give better sidelobes for the antenna and perhaps part of edge treatment against structural mode RCS. There still be discontinuities present however as the radome and airframe is made out of different materials. But this can be handled by something like RAM tapes or coat to weaken or absorb the diffraction RCS. Same goes for the canopy supporting frame.

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    Post  LMFS on Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:18 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:It would still be needed mainly to give better sidelobes for the antenna and perhaps part of edge treatment against structural mode RCS. There still be discontinuities present however as the radome and airframe is made out of different materials.  But this can be handled by something like RAM tapes or coat to weaken or absorb the diffraction RCS. Same goes for the canopy supporting frame.

    Well, I am now aware I was oversimplifying, obviously the radome is transparent so there is no way it could have electrical continuity with the rest of the fuselage if it was not a composite structure... but looking the RCS measurement model and comparing the radome with the models we know it can be appreciated that it may be as you say, an internal detail. The radome joins the fuselage in a square angle and it would create return if the rear part of the radome did not create an impedance adaptation. But then, electrical continuity must be provided, so I guess my point remains that it is a part that is not meant to be opened frequently. I think there was an old development by some US manufacturer to create covers with special gasket materials that guarantee conductivity without the need of taping or coating, that may be another option.

    Could you further explain the part about side lobes and structural mode RCS? I didn't understood that.

    As to the canopy, AFAIK it is handled as a continuous conductive surface isn't it?

    BTW, do you know why the Su-35 and Su-57 (and other modern planes) have some strakes or longitudinal lines around the radome, is it related to removing static charges in absence of the pitot tube?

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 Su-35_038
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 13 EfOZscQVAAAA_Pg?format=jpg&name=900x900
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    Post  LMFS on Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:02 pm

    Combat Approved, finally in English: the Su-57 especial

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkHRZ8FZGN4

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    Post  JohninMK on Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:50 pm

    LMFS wrote:Combat Approved, finally in English: the Su-57 especial


    Ever wondered why they gave it the number 57? How about this?

    at 20:30 the guy says "if you add 22 and 35, you get 57"
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    Post  Isos on Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:35 pm

    JohninMK wrote:
    LMFS wrote:Combat Approved, finally in English: the Su-57 especial


    Ever wondered why they gave it the number 57? How about this?

    at 20:30 the guy says "if you add 22 and 35, you get 57"

    Because su-27/37/47 exists. Next one was 57. The other number are for derivatives like 30/33/35 or 25 for CAS. I think they keep the numbers in 7 for all new fighters since the 27.

    Maybe because 7 is a lucky number.

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