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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:44 am

    No it does not.

    The pilot flying a Sukhoi plane could have been testing a new feature or the prototype he was flying may have had a fault.

    They need to investigate the accident and work out exactly what happened... I would expect a prototype would be fitted with all sorts of equipment to record everything that was going on so it shouldn't be too hard.

    If the pilot made a mistake then that information can be put in the manual so other pilots don't make the same mistake... this is a test pilot so that is unlikely in my opinion, but you never know... it is a new plane and they might still be testing the boundaries of its envelope and he might have crossed where he should not have...

    Crashes with prototypes and experimental aircraft happen all the time... that is why it is called testing... flight manuals and tactics and procedures need to be developed around what the aircraft can or cannot do and the only way to find what it can or cannot do is to take it to the edge and a little over... an expert pilot like a test pilot is who you use because often they can recover from situations your average pilot cannot so he is the ideal person to explore the envelope.

    Unless it is a fundamental design problem i doubt it will effect anything at all... for all we know this might be an early prototype that is quite different from the early production models they will be sending to testing and development units that create manuals and develop tactics.
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    Post  Arrow on Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:56 am

    This was the first production model. Delays in the program will definitely be considerable. During this time, the US will introduce another 200 F-35.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:22 am


    Rob Lee
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    An informed source tells Interfax that the Su-57 that crashed was indeed the fighter that was supposed to be delivered to the Russian Air Force by the end of the year (serial # 51001, bort blue 01). The Su-57's arrival to the VKS has been delayed again. 9/


    Rob Lee
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    Sources tell Izvestia that the failure could have come from an issue with the Su-57's digital control system (EDSU) or its engine control system, which manages the engines' operating modes and fuel supply. 10/
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Dec 24, 2019 12:45 pm


    The fifth-generation fighter Su-57 suffered the first accident in its history. The crash occurred near Komsomolsk-on-Amur during a test flight about 111 km from the airfield, the representative of the manufacturer, the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), told Vedomosti. The emergency system worked normally, the pilot ejected and remained alive, there were no casualties and damage on the ground, the source said.

    The reasons for the incident will be examined by a special commission, headed by Deputy Minister of Industry and Trade Oleg Bocharov. According to preliminary data, the accident occurred due to technical malfunctions in the Su-57 integrated control system, says a person close to the Ministry of Defense: the information circulated by a number of media about problems in the propulsion system is not confirmed.

    According to a Vedomosti source in the aviation industry, the first serial Su-57 with tail number “01 blue”, which was at the final stage of factory tests, crashed. It was created under a contract concluded by the Ministry of Defense and the UAC "daughter" - the Sukhoi companyAugust 22, 2018 at the international military-technical forum "Army-2018". Under its terms, the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Plant (KnAAZ), which is part of the Sukhoi, was obligated to be put into the armed forces in 2019–2020. two serial Su-57 fighters with engines of the "first stage" ("product 117"). The first board was demonstrated to the Deputy Minister of Defense for Arms Aleksey Krivoruchko on November 8: at the same time, plans were confirmed to transfer the aircraft with hull number 01 “blue” until the end of 2019. Now the military will have at its disposal a production vehicle only in 2020, since the second side will be to conduct an extensive flight test program, says the source of Vedomosti.

    The emergency will not affect the plans of the department for the further rearmament of the combat units on the Su-57, the source of Vedomosti assures. According to him, therefore, there is no question of any revision of the second contract for these fighters. At the last Army-2019 forum, the Defense Ministry and Sukhoi signed a contract for the supply of another 76 serial fifth-generation fighter Su-57 with a deadline of 2020–2027.

    https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2019/12/24/819543-su-57

    Unfortunate, but not a major problem, could be a issue in the export market. The pilot is alive and well that's good news.
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    Post  PhSt on Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:10 pm

    Arrow wrote:This was the first production model. Delays in the program will definitely be considerable. During this time, the US will introduce another 200 F-35.

    Indeed. Not to mention funding has already dried up for RF’s armed forces since the crippling sanctions by US and allies. Such a crash will be a significant blow to the aircraft’s reputation right? Meanwhile if a similar crash happened to an F-22 or F-35 its not a big deal because they churn up hundreds of F-35s per year? Is this the correct logic?
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:36 pm

    Su-57 fighters can arm dagger missiles after 2030

    MOSCOW, Dec 24 - RIA News. Fifth-generation Su-57 fighters can become carriers of promising Dagger systems after 2030, a representative of the aerospace forces reported to Russian President Vladimir Putin during an exhibition of modern weapons and equipment at the Russian National Defense Control Center.

    Until 2028, a decision was made to re-equip three aviation regiments with the Su-57 aircraft, which we plan to consider in conjunction with the Okhotnik unmanned aerial vehicle in the future. In addition, after 2030 this aircraft is planned to be considered as an aircraft carrier ... for the promising aviation complex "Dagger", - reported to the president.


    https://ria.ru/20191224/1562778597.html
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:37 pm

    And that is the point... of course there needs to be a delay to see what happened... this is Russia, not the US where they just declare everything is OK and keep mass producing an aircraft with almost 1,000 known problems including potentially fatal ones involving the oxygen system that allows the pilot to breathe...

    But they will make their 3,500 F-35s no matter how many pilots they have to kill because image is everything. Razz
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:51 pm

    PhSt wrote:
    Arrow wrote:This was the first production model. Delays in the program will definitely be considerable. During this time, the US will introduce another 200 F-35.

    Indeed. Not to mention funding has already dried up for RF’s armed forces since the crippling sanctions by US and allies. Such a crash will be a significant blow to the aircraft’s reputation right? Meanwhile if a similar crash happened to an F-22 or F-35 its not a big deal because they churn up hundreds of F-35s per year? Is this the correct logic?

    There already was a crash of F-22 plus several were destroyed in hurricane

    And it was a big deal since F-22 is not in production anymore while production of Su-57 is just warming up

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    Post  Isos on Tue Dec 24, 2019 3:11 pm

    The plane wasn't received by the MoD so it was still sukhoi's.


    Rob Lee
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    Interfax reported that the aircraft was insured, though it didn't specify who insured it. 14/
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:58 pm

    Mod would have insured it. Since it was a production model. But it crashed under Sukhois hand so it will be cost from them.

    As for crashes, it happens. Better to happen during test than after acceptance.
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    Vann7

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    Post  Vann7 on Tue Dec 24, 2019 5:50 pm

    GarryB wrote:No it does not.

    The pilot flying a Sukhoi plane could have been testing a new feature or the prototype he was flying may have had a fault.


    Yes it does...

    So you are wrong AGAIN... and never seem to get tired of being wrong..
    It was a serial production model... This means the worse possible thing happened.
    Now The Su-57 program will be delayed .. probably for at least 1 year.. being generous..
    it could be more 2 or 3 years if was using the final engine !!..

    IT remains to be seen what engine the plane was using if the final one or the temporary old one
    they modified from a fourth generation sukhoy Su-27/30

    Is not a big deal for me.. the real big thing for Russia airforce will be Mig-41 ,which will be
    the most valuable player in a full scale war vs NATO.. Mig-41 , Tu-160m modernized and Pak-DA
    are the big planes ,that more impact will do in a war.. ie. the nuclear carriers of long range hypersonic missiles..
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    Post  dino00 on Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:32 pm

    Vann7 wrote:
    GarryB wrote:No it does not.

    The pilot flying a Sukhoi plane could have been testing a new feature or the prototype he was flying may have had a fault.


    Yes it does...

    So you are wrong AGAIN... and never seem to get tired of being wrong..
    It was a serial production model... This means the worse possible thing happened.
    Now The Su-57 program will be delayed .. probably for at least 1 year..  being generous..
    it could be more 2 or 3 years if was using the final engine !!..

    IT remains to be seen what engine the plane was using if the final one or the temporary old one
    they modified from a fourth generation sukhoy Su-27/30

    Is not a big deal for me.. the real big thing for Russia airforce will be Mig-41 ,which will be
    the most valuable player in a full scale war vs NATO..  Mig-41 , Tu-160m modernized and Pak-DA
    are the big planes ,that more impact will do in a war.. ie. the nuclear carriers of long range hypersonic missiles..

    Wtf make up your mind! If was going to be delivered, of course was not the second stage engine.
    No delays instead of one this year and another one next year, only one in 2020, if they understand what happened.
    Merry Christmas Vann7 santa thumbsup
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    Post  Vann7 on Tue Dec 24, 2019 8:15 pm

    dino00 wrote:
    No delays instead of one this year and another one next year, only one in 2020, if they understand what happened.
    Merry Christmas Vann7 santa thumbsup


    happyXmas to you too.. pirat Wink
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    Post  calripson on Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:30 pm

    Arrow wrote:This was the first production model. Delays in the program will definitely be considerable. During this time, the US will introduce another 200 F-35.

    It is actually irrelevant. Russia's counter to NATO numerical and technological superiority is its counter-strike capability, both conventional and more importantly nuclear. The U.S. was not even keen to take on North Korea with its very limited capability.

    Paradoxically, the weaker Russia's airforce and SAM network is the less time its decision makers have to decide to launch counter-strikes and the more dangerous any confrontation becomes for NATO/US. That is why "no fly zones" were rejected in Syria. That is why the Roki Tunnel wasn't bombed in 2008.
    The US and NATO cannot allow uncontrolled escalation in any conflict with Russia until they achieve actual military superiority.

    NATO/US cannot achieve military superiority over Russia unless they can abrogate Russia's counter-strike capability (something they cannot do as of today). Attempting to achieve that aim is the whole reason for the formation of America's "Space Force".
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    Post  miketheterrible on Tue Dec 24, 2019 11:54 pm

    This won't cause any major delay. Prior to F-22's acceptance there was a crash. That didn't stop it's introduction. Shit like this happens with new aircraft. It's surprising it hasn't happened to any of the flying prototypes but to a flying production model - first one too. They will thoroughly look through the black box to see what happened and next production model built will be thoroughly tested before handing over to military. Contract is a contract and must be fulfilled.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Dec 25, 2019 12:49 am

    Apparently it was a control system failure.

    https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2019/12/24/14490/
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    Post  mnztr on Wed Dec 25, 2019 1:15 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Apparently it was a control system failure.

    https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2019/12/24/14490/

    if it was brand new off then line then this will raise a ton of questions. Why did it fail, is their QA and preflight not sufficient. What about the subsystem manufacturers. Was it a software, hardware, actuator or structural failure? Once you establish that, then WHY!!! ...never easy. Hopefully the answer is clear.
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:50 am

    mnztr wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Apparently it was a control system failure.

    https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2019/12/24/14490/

    if it was brand new off then line then this will raise a ton of questions. Why did it fail, is their QA and preflight not sufficient. What about the subsystem manufacturers. Was it a software, hardware, actuator or structural failure? Once you establish that, then WHY!!! ...never easy. Hopefully the answer is clear.

    The pilot is alive so he will help.
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    Post  kvs on Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:01 am

    mnztr wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Apparently it was a control system failure.

    https://www.ruaviation.com/news/2019/12/24/14490/

    if it was brand new off then line then this will raise a ton of questions. Why did it fail, is their QA and preflight not sufficient. What about the subsystem manufacturers. Was it a software, hardware, actuator or structural failure? Once you establish that, then WHY!!! ...never easy. Hopefully the answer is clear.

    Real world use is the only way to debug any complex system like rockets and jets. Too much Hollywood brainwashing has given people the notion that
    perfect designs exist and can be regularly achieved with the right funding. This is patent BS. It is impossible to cover all degrees of freedom in simulations
    and to explore all of phase space and to account for all exogenous factors. That is a supernatural level of design.

    One example of the ignorance level is the global electric circuit that is never accounted for in any aircraft design. The combination of variable moisture
    loading and variances in atmospheric ionization by high energy nucleon bombardment can produce unexpected local surges in current that are substantial
    enough to screw around with avionics (Faraday cages are electrostatic concepts and not amperage transient resistant; and avionics are not all that isolated
    in the manner in which they are deployed and the insulator thickness used). That "fair weather" currents are typically low does not preclude situations where
    they are not low. So in addition to ignorance about various dynamical features of the atmosphere where shear and orographic induced waves can thrash
    an aircraft (the SSJ-100 crash in Indonesia), we also can't account for a safe electrical environment.
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    Post  nero on Wed Dec 25, 2019 6:46 am

    Arrow wrote:This was the first production model. Delays in the program will definitely be considerable. During this time, the US will introduce another 200 F-35.
    And your point is?

    Russia aerospace forces have around 700-900 fighter jets in active service. This number isn't going to change much, as older inventory will be simply replaced with newer planes. Unless I missed some huge planned increase of the forces.

    In addition to this, it has over 2000 S-300 TEL's, ~400-600 S-400 TEL's and thousands more mixed-range air-defense units. It's main focus has never been fighter aviation, it was a mix of everything.

    This is more than enough to defend Russia. Especially considering most of it's fighter aviation consists of Sukhoi planes, which are meant to fight across long distances. Russia is quite large...



    The US is replacing it's entire fleet of F-16's, F-15's, F/A-18'a and A-10's with ~1800 F-35 fighter aircraft. By the time they do this, the remaining F-22's are going to be virtually unservisable, because they no longer produce spare parts for them.

    The F-35 program was more of an economical project than a military one. They will be forever stuck with a jet that will not be able to fight in close range situations. Ultimately, technology to jam F-35 radars from longer ranges, masking of aircraft presence from long-ranges or means to shoot down incoming AA missiles will make the plane useless in it's role.



    Such accidents are a shame, because some components of the aircraft failed and will undoubtedly cause delays... on the other hand, that is what tests are for. It did not drop during training exercise, it dropped dead during a test. These things will happen.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Dec 25, 2019 8:40 am

    Always had happened. Just look through accidents of aircraft in the past. Nearly all of them have failures within first year of either introduction or before introduction. As KVS said, there is no such thing as a perfect design and or perfect use without failure.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 25, 2019 2:29 pm

    So you are wrong AGAIN... and never seem to get tired of being wrong..
    It was a serial production model... This means the worse possible thing happened.
    Now The Su-57 program will be delayed .. probably for at least 1 year.. being generous..
    it could be more 2 or 3 years if was using the final engine !!..

    You seem to not understand how product development works... there has never been a plane like the Su-57 build before... it is new... so they have to test it and check things to make sure their plans and design actually work in reality the way they expect and hope they will work.

    There are literally hundreds of thousands of components and systems that all have to work and interact together in the final product and there is actually no way to be sure that any design is good enough till something bad happens... how many years was Concord in operation before they found out the hard way that placing fuel tanks where shredded tire material can rupture them if they fail is a bad idea...

    Looking back now it seems obvious, but no one said anything.

    The fact is that finding a problem now before they start serial production is the best possible result they could realistically hope for.

    Compare with the F-35 programme where literally hundreds of problems have been found but not solved because the pressure is to get it into mass production to try to drive the purchase price down... problems including potentially fatal problems with the oxygen generation system which effects most of their new jet fighters... and they don't seem to have any realistic or practical solutions... that is really serious...

    IT remains to be seen what engine the plane was using if the final one or the temporary old one
    they modified from a fourth generation sukhoy Su-27/30

    Ahhh get over yourself... the engine they are using is a good engine... the new more powerful engine is a bit more ambitious and is really intended as an upgrade some years after the aircraft enters service to boost performance at a time when most planes tend to get heavier and lose their flight performance edge because there is no engine power boost that can be applied easily enough to balance the weight increase.

    The F-14A had terrible engines in comparison... they were bloody awful... they were not intended for a fighter aircraft for use in dogfights... it wasn't till the 1990s when the F-14D got its new engines it actually became a decent aircraft but they had already decided to replace it with the F-18 which was supposed to be cheaper and multirole but ended up being much more expensive...

    Is not a big deal for me.. the real big thing for Russia airforce will be Mig-41 ,which will be
    the most valuable player in a full scale war vs NATO.. Mig-41 , Tu-160m modernized and Pak-DA
    are the big planes ,that more impact will do in a war.. ie. the nuclear carriers of long range hypersonic missiles..

    The Su-57 with its current engine is a serious step up from the Su-35 and should be better than the F-22 in most areas... with its upgraded engine it will be even better. What is there to be upset about?

    The Russian Air Force will benefit from having a range of aircraft... Su-57, Su-35, MiG-35, each have different cost and performance niches offering different capabilities that will be useful and used without costing anything like what a single F-35 costs to buy or to operate.

    American taxpayers would be so jealous if they understood and were given accurate information about the current situation... but they are kept in the dark... to prevent outrage and riots.

    It is actually irrelevant. Russia's counter to NATO numerical and technological superiority is its counter-strike capability, both conventional and more importantly nuclear. The U.S. was not even keen to take on North Korea with its very limited capability.

    Exactly... the Su-57 is not supposed to be the cheap numbers plane that replaces all other fighters in the Russian inventory and is intended to face off against 3.500 NATO F-35s. Russia actually has a working fully operational integrated air defence network and a force of Su-57s will form the stealthy fighter component of that force that will use radars and other sensors and aircraft and satellites etc etc to deal with any external threats... even if you offered to give them free of charge right now 3,500 Su-57s I doubt they would accept because they would have no peace time use for such numbers let alone the resources and infrastructure to support or operate such a force...

    Paradoxically, the weaker Russia's airforce and SAM network is the less time its decision makers have to decide to launch counter-strikes and the more dangerous any confrontation becomes for NATO/US.

    The Air Force is weaker in terms of air power strength, but the Russian SAM network is head and shoulders better than all of NATOs air defences combined.... the only component of NATO air defence that even comes close is on their AEGIS class ships and even then they are not as good.

    if it was brand new off then line then this will raise a ton of questions.

    Questions, sure, but no reason to get your panties in a bunch and start crying and cancelling orders and delaying everything ten years while managers are publicly executed...

    Why did it fail, is their QA and preflight not sufficient. What about the subsystem manufacturers. Was it a software, hardware, actuator or structural failure? Once you establish that, then WHY!!! ...never easy. Hopefully the answer is clear.

    Well that is part of the procedure of any investigation, and solutions will be found and applied and the in service serial aircraft will be the better for this.

    Imagine if all 76 were delivered before this problem occurred and not only would they all need to be grounded... which would effect operations and other processes like tactics and manual development, but any changes would probably require all those planes to have modifications and changes made to new production aircraft too... expensive and time consuming and embarrassing.

    Fixing it now is much easier and cheaper even if there is a delay while they make a replacement aircraft and modify those others already made.

    Always had happened. Just look through accidents of aircraft in the past. Nearly all of them have failures within first year of either introduction or before introduction. As KVS said, there is no such thing as a perfect design and or perfect use without failure.

    To take it further for those that don't understand, when you are product testing you use the product in sensible ways... the way it is designed to be used by people trained to use it. But you also have to test it for people making mistakes... to find problems in the way things are done to see if you can create a fail situation... that is the point of testing... to make the product as error preventative as possible.

    I mean look at a door... you can put a nice big handle bar on it but then you introduce doubt... a handle can be used to push or pull, so you either have a sign saying push or pull or you make every door with this handle a push and a pull door.

    That is not always possible, but there are elegant solutions... if the door is push only just put a push plate on it with no sign. Any human being will realise all they can do is push so they don't need to be told whether to push or pull... If a handle is fitted however they might try to pull and only after it not opening will they realise it is a push only door.

    The push plate is simple, does not require instructions, and actually prevents the user trying to perform an ineffective action that will waste their time and energy.

    Deciding whether to fit push plates or handles is another matter however... where is the door?

    Will the door need to be held open, are the users of the door in need of a handle or will a push plate do?

    These are design considerations designers have to decide on... another example is a roundabout or a set of lights... both control traffic, but lights require power and maintenance and can be damaged in accidents or vandalised. A round about is another elegant solution... once you understand how it works it is simple and easy to use. Some idiots can make it a problem but most of the time if there is space it is the better solution to traffic problems.

    The problem with a multirole modern fighter is that there are probably millions of different combinations of equipment settings and combinations of things you might try to do... you really can't test them all in honesty... so you check the main things... perhaps something failed because of this which makes it a good catch because if a test pilot couldn't recover the aircraft then an active pilot learning to use this aircraft probably wouldn't either.
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    Post  mnztr on Thu Dec 26, 2019 5:52 pm

    Apparently the plane was at about 12,000 meters when the fault happened. The pilot stayed with it down to 2,000 m before punching out. I am sure he is heartbroken that he was unable to save the ship...as most test pilots are when this happens.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:45 pm


    Rob Lee
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    2 top defense industry management figures told Vedomosti that Azerbaijan is interested in buying the Su-57, possibly as a response to Armenia's procurement of Su-30SM fighters
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Dec 27, 2019 3:45 am

    what a lucrative market. Sell Armenia something at a decent price and Azerbaijan will order more expensive from Russia. Win win for Russians.

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