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    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:09 am

    It was good he chose to eject... many good testpilots have been lost trying to save the aircraft so that the fault is easier to find or work out... but I would think this aircraft was likely covered in all sorts of measuring and recording systems to allow them to be able to establish what went wrong...

    Flight control systems are enormously complex things and any number of things can go wrong with them... it would be nearly impossible to test in all conditions all potential combinations of circumstances...
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    Post  mnztr on Fri Dec 27, 2019 4:50 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    1h
    2 top defense industry management figures told Vedomosti that Azerbaijan is interested in buying the Su-57, possibly as a response to Armenia's procurement of Su-30SM fighters


    Will they remotely consider selling SU-57 to Azerbaijan since they are casting their eyes westword
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:38 pm

    mnztr wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    1h
    2 top defense industry management figures told Vedomosti that Azerbaijan is interested in buying the Su-57, possibly as a response to Armenia's procurement of Su-30SM fighters


    Will they remotely consider selling SU-57 to Azerbaijan since they are casting their eyes westword


    Turkey calling the shots in Azerbaijan

    What they says goes

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:34 pm

    They are developing an export model Su-57... so it makes sense to export it...

    The US is going to have to go sanction mad with all these countries picking the wrong team to buy from.

    Of course it is not just aircraft... they will need to access the new range of air to air and air to ground weapons that come with it... the US military is going to find the world is becoming a mine field of places where it doesn't have guaranteed air superiority every time.

    Of course one aircraft type on its own wont make an enormous difference... they will need to buy all sorts of C4IR gear to actually make it effective, so the Russians are going to get to sell a lot of other stuff too...
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    Post  tanino on Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:37 pm

    GarryB for President.

    I want to thank you, you wrote the most sensible things I've read about accident. Sure, given Boeing's current problems, a nice 51001 presentation to the press would have been a big hit, but maybe like you said, better a better plane in 4 months than a worse plane now. (As F-35).

    Rumor has it that the HD photos of the 51001 (and 51002) show a very well built aircraft at the RAM level. And they're all very impressed. Do you have confirmation?

    A hug and best wishes to all of you.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:06 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Rob Lee
    @RALee85
    ·
    1h
    2 top defense industry management figures told Vedomosti that Azerbaijan is interested in buying the Su-57, possibly as a response to Armenia's procurement of Su-30SM fighters


    Will they remotely consider selling SU-57 to Azerbaijan since they are casting their eyes westword


    Turkey calling the shots in Azerbaijan

    What they says goes


    Russia sells weapons to Armenia and Azerbaidjan since long ago even when they were in war btw themselves.

    Azeris have mig-29, su-25, mi 35, s-300PMU2, buk, t-72, t-90, bmp2/3.

    Armenians have su-30, su25, mi-24, igla s, verba, kornet, shturm and all the other older atgm from ussr, 1 t90 won during a tank biathlon, t-72 , bmp 2, Tigr ...

    They mostly have no other supplier. Azerbaidjan buy from Israel drones and some air defence system but mai ly russia has the monopoly out there. I think Russia also have some soldier in both countries.

    The monopoly is also explained by the fact that the two countries are always in state of war and if one tries to see the west russia will support hardly the second to win the war.

    Turkey supply nothing. They just hate armenians and support Azerbaidjan but the former won't risk to get russia angry by getting military aid from weak Turkey. Specially near Russia's borders. Turkey tries to be a big factor there but they are not. Russian wins on both sides.


    In terms of money it is very well possible that Azerbaidjan buys su57 because they are a rich country thanks to its gaz export. It is one of the biggest russian client, they won't let them go away that easy.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:55 pm


    I was saying that Azeri will buy Su-57 because Turks will okay the transaction
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:34 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    I was saying that Azeri will buy Su-57 because Turks will okay the transaction

    They don't give a fuck about Turkey.


    Anyway, 14 su57 for algeria until 2025 and 76 for russia until 2028. That means average production of 3 per year for algeria and 10 for russia so 13 per year for the periode 2020-2025 and then only 10 per year.

    That's good for sukhou's production line. Many job that will be kept.

    But that complicates sells in the near future to any other customer as they will have to finish algerian and russian contracts. What is max production of su-35 ? Su-57 will be slower to build since it is much more adcanced with more systems and new composite materials.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:02 am

    GarryB for President.

    I want to thank you, you wrote the most sensible things I've read about accident.

    angel

    Well there is a lot of very emotional people here who will immediately post when they are upset and who would not be upset at an aircraft that looks like the Su-57 crashing... only a heartless F16.net fanboy would not be moved.

    As you get older more people you know die and more stuff gets worn out and has to be replaced, but you learn to appreciate things that were well designed and designed to last.

    I seem to remember you were interested in design so you would understand better the issues involved from start to deploying the project and product support.

    Keep focusing on what is important and you will deliver a good product... get distracted by trying to be all things to all potential customers and you end up in trouble... from what I can see the Su-57 is the former... not super stealthy but stealthy enough to be a problem, and also not so stealthy that it is unaffordable. (doesn't matter how stealthy it is if it makes it too expensive to have enough to be effective and decisive in combat.)

    F-35 on the other hand is probably more stealthy but probably not enough to matter, but because they tried harder to make it stealthy in most other regards it is not so good... in fact quite bad. And even basics like the oxygen system are not fixed yet...


    Last edited by GarryB on Tue Dec 31, 2019 3:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  jhelb on Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:48 pm

    New weapons are currently being developed for Russia's fifth-generation Su-57 fighter jets russia

    Sounds like something interesting is in the works

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201912301077897203-new-weapons-being-developed-for-russias-su-57-fighters-aerospace-manufacturer-chief/
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    Post  Giulio on Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:09 am

    Su-57s for Algeria?????
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:31 pm

    Even if they sign on the dotted line right now and hand over the cash they wont be getting deliveries for the better part of this decade... perhaps 2025-2027 when deliveries could potentially start I would guess... they will want to focus on producing aircraft for the RuAF and getting the bugs out.

    I suspect the export model will be simpler and offer less advanced features but still better than any 4th gen fighter available.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:33 am

    Propaganda discussion moved to talking bollocks section:

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t7216p775-talking-bollocks-thread-2

    This thread is for Su-57 discussion.
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    Post  mnztr on Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:48 am

    GarryB wrote:Even if they sign on the dotted line right now and hand over the cash they wont be getting deliveries for the better part of this decade... perhaps 2025-2027 when deliveries could potentially start I would guess... they will want to focus on producing aircraft for the RuAF and getting the bugs out.

    I suspect the export model will be simpler and offer less advanced features but still better than any 4th gen fighter available.

    There is no hurry, RUAF would probably be satified to get 25-40 frames an then deliver 10-15 to Algeria. until the new engine is ready there is no hurry
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:58 am

    When the new engines are ready I suspect they will not rush to retrofit them to already built aircraft... which have brand new engines anyway.

    What they might do is start building the new engines and fit them to already built Su-57s to improve their performance but take the existing engines, which are still very good and fit them to S-70 drones... no point in having their latest and best engines in largely expendible drones... they could uprate the existing engines in the unmanned drones to get better performance at the expense of shorter operational lives... they wont need their drones to operate as often or as much as their fighters.... most of their drones could sit boxed up ready for use while pilots in Su-57s train with virtual drones as well as one or two real ones...

    There is far too much expectation regarding these new engines, the Su-57 is already a rather good plane with its existing engines... improved engines make them better but they are still very good.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:41 am

    Lockheed Martin fanboy: "Su-57 isn't stealthy lolololololololol!!!1!"


    F-22: Meanwhile Lockheed Martin 30-40 years in still hasn't developed a reasonable/functionable RAM coating for stealth aircraft. 

    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 3 EOtZlekU4AAfDRe?format=jpg&name=large
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:14 pm

    "Raptor" is no longer equal: what will be the new Russian fighter
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:25 am


    For the Su-57 created an intra-fuselage hypersonic missile
    Su-57 Stealth Fighter: News #6 - Page 3 1582437305_222

    It is reported about the creation of a special type of weapon for the Russian fighter of the 5th generation. This was reported by the TASS information service.

    The materials of the agency contain information that we are talking about a hypersonic missile, which was developed by specialists of the domestic military-industrial complex. It is noted that the rocket will be located in the internal compartment of the Su-57 fighter. In other words, this is an intra-fuselage version of the hypersonic weapons of a combat aircraft. Additionally, it is said that the rocket has a relatively small size and belongs to the class of "air-surface".

    At the moment, it is known that so far the prototype hypersonic small-sized missile has not passed flight tests with the Su-57 fighter. About any characteristics of the new weapons for the aircraft is not reported.


    Recall that previously it was reported plans to equip the latest Russian fighter with hypersonic weapons . At the moment, in aviation, there is one hypersonic missile system in service. This is a “Dagger” with a MiG-31 carrier. No other country in the world has an army with hypersonic weapons.

    https://topwar.ru/168215-dlja-su-57-sozdana-vnutrifjuzeljazhnaja-giperzvukovaja-raketa.html

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    Post  kvs on Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:35 am

    So the 500% copper nano-particle combustion rate improvement is being put to good use. This sort of fuel tech innovation
    is exactly what enables hypersonic missiles of all sizes.

    Gas station posing as a country does it again!

    Que yanqui retards claiming Russia stole their "plans". Russia must have stolen all their science research talent as well.

    bounce lol1
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:54 am

    Well exactly...by boosting performance by a significant margin it would be useful in ramjet and scramjet engines as well as rocket engines to increase thrust... perhaps that is the new fuel that increases Onyx from a mach 2.5 missile to a mach 5 missile with much longer range... which would suggest it would increase the performance of any ramjet powered missile and indeed any scramjet powered missile that does not already use it of course.
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    Post  thegopnik on Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:29 am

    Russia did mention back in 2014 that a hyper-sonic cruise missile was being developed, and it has been further confirmed in december 2018 that mini-kinzhals will get hooked. The IL-76 back in the 2019 maks airshow says the scramjet was 6 meters long. and the picture shows that the solid fuel rocket booster looks like it is the same length as the scramjet motor if you were to cut that missile in half. Purpose of solid rocket boosters is to get the scramjet engine running by giving the scramjet the proper speed and altitude. copper nanoparticles help burn 500% of fuel to go much faster. so if a rocket booster is 3 meters and so is the scramjet engine than you can cut 1/5 of the volume of the solid rocket booster fuel because the copper will get it to the same speeds by using 500%. Also there has to be space for the consideration of putting either a nuclear or conventional warhead.

    However I believe they should have not disclosed that copper makes things go 5 times as fast because the U.S. can use that information if its out in the public or there have to be other ingredients they do not want to disclose, similar as to them not disclosing what the special fuel the Zircon is using. But of course nano particles could have been added to either the solid rocket fuel or scramjet engine of the Zircon because its speeds have went from mach 6, mach 8, mach 9, and now announcements to go over mach 10.

    The size requirements to go internal is 4.6 by 1 meter.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:30 am

    I suspect they revealed the copper additive because the west already knew.

    In scramjet designs the centre core of the scramjet motor needs to be empty because that is where the air flows through when the scramjet is operating.

    The Soviets and now the Russians have been putting solid rocket boosters into that cavity to get the whole missile up to speed without having to increase the weapons length with an external solid rocket booster.

    More powerful solid rocket propellent likely wont result in using smaller lighter solid rocket boosters... it simply makes sense to fill the entire internal cavity with a solid rocket booster... so the extra energy performance will mean upon launch the missile will be able to climb higher and be moving at a much higher flight speed when the remains are ejected and the Scramjet lights up... improved solid rocket fuel burn means longer range and higher max flight speed for the missile which are all positive things.
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    Post  thegopnik on Wed Feb 26, 2020 5:04 am

    GarryB wrote:I suspect they revealed the copper additive because the west already knew.

    In scramjet designs the centre core of the scramjet motor needs to be empty because that is where the air flows through when the scramjet is operating.

    The Soviets and now the Russians have been putting solid rocket boosters into that cavity to get the whole missile up to speed without having to increase the weapons length with an external solid rocket booster.

    More powerful solid rocket propellent likely wont result in using smaller lighter solid rocket boosters... it simply makes sense to fill the entire internal cavity with a solid rocket booster... so the extra energy performance will mean upon launch the missile will be able to climb higher and be moving at a much higher flight speed when the remains are ejected and the Scramjet lights up... improved solid rocket fuel burn means longer range and higher max flight speed for the missile which are all positive things.

    I also realized that it can be just be exactly like the kinzhal instead of a scramjet, but with a lesser range. The copper already boosts the missile immediately 5 times. The Su-57 is a stealth multi-role aircraft which its purpose is to get close to air defense systems. It takes time to for a missile to speed up but copper lessens that speed time to go immediately hypersonic. To me for example a 400km range hyper-sonic air to ground missile would be OK to fit inside a SU-57 because the aircraft's purpose is to get close. I am just saying it is very feasible for them to downsize it regardless what critics think

    **Source: 23/05/2014 Itar-Tass**

    *“It was hard work. Intensity of tests was very high. Even the main test centre coped with it with difficulty, he added.
    The Tactical Missiles Corporation also planned to develop the first model of a hypersonic missile by 2020, the corporation's director-general said.*
    *Russia had completed working out a programme to develop hypersonic missile technologies. The Defense Ministry and the Ministry of Industry and Trade had already approved the programme, Obnosov said.*
    *Twelve working groups were formed with the participation of dozens of institutes and companies. The programme was already worked out and approved. The main thing was to implement it, he said.*
    *Key areas were determined. There was understanding in the Defence Ministry, he added.
    "If we are behind others it will be hard to catch up with them later. Purposeful, systematic and everyday work is needed," the director-general noted, referring to other countries' developments in the field.*
    *"If somebody thinks that tomorrow we will pull a hypersonic missile from a pocket, the one is mistaken, since the process to create it requires serious scientific and technical developments, serious tests, personnel training and many other things," Obnosov said.”*

    So now its difficult to confirm if it is scramjet, or ballistic. Because taking a trip down memory lane here they said cruise instead of ballistic which can confirm its scramjet. or it can be entirely a downsized ballistic missile because not much range would be needed, and immediate hyper-sonic speeds can be done with the copper story that just recently came out with solid fuel ballistic missiles.
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    Post  thegopnik on Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:34 pm

    Got this information from another user.

    "Now the Kinzhal is likely based off of the Iskander (mass of 3800kg) which has a diameter of 920mm. Based on the fact that the cockpit on the MiG 31 fits between the two engines and 900mm gives a reasonable amount of room for a pilot I'd say the Kinzhal is of similar diameter. Length wise from the image above if we measure the distance the missile takes up on our screen, draw a line of equal length, and copy and paste said line to fill the length of the aircraft, I found the missile’s length to be able to fit along the length of the aircraft 2.83 times meaning it is 0.35 times the length of the MiG 35; that works out to 7.98m.

    The volume of a cylinder (which matches the profile of most of the missile’s length) is given byπ∗r2xh where r is the radius and h is the length. Yes the missile’s have a cone-like front section, but this rough calculation will give a value exceeding that of the missile and thus you will see a very generous amount, important to note if the range turns out to be short anyway.

    Using the aforementioned equation the volume of the Kinzhal is 5.30∗106cm3. Since the weapon bays appear to be a rectangular prism we use v=l∗w∗h

    where v is volume, l is length, w is width, and h is height. That gives us a weapon bay volume of 2.48∗106cm3.

    That means the volume of the Kinzhal must be reduced by a factor of 0.46.

    The downscaled Kinzhal will have 0.19 the area for its rocket nozzle meaning the rate at which propellent is ejector is also cut by 0.19 (oversimplification again). That means that thrust goes down by a factor of 0.19 while mass decreases by only 0.46. The original Kinzhal would then have 2.4x the thrust to weight ratio of the newer missile. As drag is proportional to the cross sectional area the newer missile has 0.46x the drag of the original. That means the overall acceleration is 0.28 that of the original.

    The optimum launch angle is 45 degrees (being generous again as the missile will probably not be launched at exactly 45, in fact it may be fired level with the ground and has to point itself upwards). They say that the kinzhal has a range of 2000km launched from the MiG 31 and 3000km launched from the TU 22; I fail to see how a simple change in launch platform increase the range by 50% so I’m just going to take the average of those two, 2500km. We will be even more generous and not take into account atmospheric drag. to calculate the total energy output of the missile. Using dx=(v2sin2a)/g where dx is horizontal distance covered, v is velocity, a is angle, and g is the gravitational acceleration of 9.81 meters per second squared, we isolate for v to find the initial velocity. That gives us an initial velocity of 5000m/s (way more than the actual figure reported to around 3430m/s because of our generosity with these figures). Using Ek=0.5mv2 we get 47.5 GJ of energy. Since volume is proportional to mass the scaled down kinzhal will have 0.46x the mass and as long as it uses the same fuel it will have 0.46x the energy, 21.9 GJ. Converting this back into initial velocity gets us the same 5000m/s. Considering only 0.28x this value goes towards increasing the missile’s mechanical energy then the missile also has 0.28x the range.

    Final verdict, the missile has a range of 690km give or take.

    This was a seriously rough estimation so give or take a couple hundred kilometers."


    So if the thrust is .19 if the Kinzhal got downsized from the original kinzhal to fit in the SU-57. That thrust can go back to the original speeds with copper additives so .19 times 5. However the range will still be 690kms which is not bad because the purpose of the SU-57 is stealth.
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