Utility/Auxilliary aircrafts in RuAF

The An-28 which is similar size and capacity as the TVS 2DTS have a reasonable good production run of 190+ units.

I remember when I was in the Khorog Gorno-Badakhshan Tajikistan I went to the small airport and I was hoping to catch a flight on the An-28 it's first come first served or whoever has the biggest amount of cash lol there was only 14 spaces I was told. We waited a short time then told it wasn't coming due to bad weather. The airport staff told me they knew it wasn't coming hence they had already been drinking this was at 9 am lol. They invited me and my friend for breakfast including bowels of vodka across the road in a small shop. They said that maybe the helicopter run by an international charity (the name escapes me) might have some spare seats only 7 seats in the helicopter and they were free but the charity decides who gets them. Two guys from the charity came to the shop and told us there was no seats available as some MP and medical staff had got them. We finished breakfast then continued back to dushanbe(2 days drive or 1 if you don't stop and drive like a ms chine lol) after being in the Pamirs for 5 days. The helicopter which I wasn't told the model but the airport staff stated it was equipped with all weather systems. The airport was small and short take off landings only. We were told that flights often get cancelled because the An-28 they had had no all weather systems. (Pics are available of my journey there if anyone wants to see them)

So anyway going back to the TVS 2DTS this aircraft would be a perfect replacement for the An-28 and having all weather systems would reduce the number of cancelled flights. So its not just Russian market but globally there's many remote areas that need such an aircraft.

As for the An-28 Production was transferred to PZL-Mielec in 1978. But was originally produced from 1975 but design started much earlier. From 1984-1993 PZL An-28 was in production from 1993 to present it became a more western version called PZL M28 skytruck. And both the PZL An-28 and M28 combined have seen 185+ being built.

Interestingly the USA special operations command ordered some in 2009. And even the German armed forces have leased some for parachute training. The following statements from two articles on the German armed forces use.

" The M28 is renowned for its Short Take Off and Landing capabilities and is a westernised version of the Soviet era Antonov An-28 transport aircraft.

The 7,500 kg (16,500 lb.) twin turboprop is ideal for military and commercial transport missions with its ability to operate from short, unpaved or underdeveloped airstrips.

German Bundeswehr carry out para jumping operation from an altitude of 6,200 meters, with 5 to 6 para troopers, even though the aircraft can carry 14.

The aircraft is flown by civilian pilots and is lot cheap to operate compared to the heavier A400M and the C-160 Transal. Other advantage include the rear exit door that is safe than side exit present in civilian aircraft."

http://www.aviationanalysis.net/2017/08/germany-lease-polish-m28-twin-prop-for.html?m=1

Parachute training within the German armed forces has so far been performed with the C-160 Transall. The A400M, which is replacing the C-160, is too large for some parachute exercises.

PZL Mielec hopes that the current lease will lead to a permanent a larger order from the Luftwaffe.

The deal will provide further ammunition to critics of the A400M, the Luftwaffe requirement for which has already been reduced from an original total of 75 aircraft to 60, and then further cut to 53 aircraft. Initial deliveries to the Luftwaffe were late, owing to delays with the programme. In late January 2011 it was revealed that the German parliament was discussing the possibility of selling on 13 of its allocated aircraft immediately after delivery.

Since the A400M is considered unsuitable for certain tactical airlift scenarios, the German government announced the planned acquisition of six C-130Js in April 2017. They will be operated by a joint Franco-German unit."

https://airforcesmonthly.keypublishing.com/2017/08/07/germany-leases-m28-skytrucks/


And then it gets more interesting sikorsky (HELICOPTER producer bought out the polish company)


" Sikorsky bought the Polish aerospace structures company, PZL Mielec, in 2007 the main focus was to produce helicopter structures and the S70i International Black Hawk helicopter. Included with the purchase was an odd fit for a helicopter manufacturer: PZL’s fixed-wing M28, a rugged twin-engine turboprop. Sikorsky’s new owner, Lockheed Martin, has only now begun to market it in earnest in the regions where it may sell the best.

PZL began producing the latest generation of the M28 in Mielec, Poland, in 1993, and since then the Sikorsky purchase has been delivering about 10 aircraft per year.Customers include the governments of Indonesia, Jordan, Poland, Venezuela, Vietnam, the U.S. and several commercial operators.

Schierholz tackled the information vacuum by getting company approval for an M28 Latin American tour. One-and-a-half years in the making, the tour launched in March and finished in May after visiting seven Caribbean and Latin American countries, including Trinidad and Tobago, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador and Mexico.

“On a scale from 1-10, I expected interest in this region to be a 10,” says Schierholz. “It was a 15. He says there has been at least one request for proposal submitted from potential military, government or civilian customers in each country visited, some for multiple aircraft. The split between commercial and military applications is 50/50, he says. The split between commercial and military applications is 50/50, he says. The two “most-likely” procurements—Schierholz would not say which countries are involved—have been pushed back into 2018 for “budgetary reasons,” he says.

Cost of the aircraft is $6.5-7 million, depending on the configuration."

http://m28aircraft.com/news/news/view/m28-in-aviation-week

The PZL M28 Skytruck and PZL M28B Bryan is still manufactured.

So even sikorsky/Lockheed see the market potential as well for a small short take off and landings aircraft to be used in remote areas. Not just Rostec then. Where the TVS 2DTS has an advantage here is price ear marked at $1.5mn to eventually come down to $1.2mn take this into account of the M28 Skytruck at $6.5-7mn. For similar aircraft/similar roles.

As for the Germans using it as parachute training and as stated using 6-7 troops for one aircraft and that bigger aircraft are not always suitable backs up what me, GarryB and a few others have said and experienced that quite often smaller aircraft being used. As I mentioned the Britten-Norman being used in the UK for training purposes. This refutes eehnie claims as do other comments made in this post not my words but words of experts and businessmen.

Apologies for the long post.

GarryB, there is nothing to save from your comment.

The fleet of auxiliary aircrafts of the Russian Armed Forces, with numbers updated at the begin of 2018, is exposed in my first comment of this page. Is following the same trends that the civil fleet, but delayed. As example, in the first half of 2018 more than 25 An-26 have been scrapped without replacement by Il-112.

The exposition of the modern aircraft fleets of the modern Russian Airlines and Russian Air-Cargo companies had the purpose of showing which have been the aircrafts and size cathegories of their interest in the last years.

The data exposed in my previous comment now reachs for 2017: 83.36% Airliner + 90.99% Air-Cargo market share

It allows to see clearly the difference between the demand of margina projects and the main demand of the civil customers of the Russian aircraft manufacturer industry in the refered to Airliner and Transport aircrafts. Of course Russia will care about the main demand developping the right projects first.

The reasons leading the civil companies to have these fleets (exposed in my previous comment), have been reasons of costs and profitability, specially in the refered to the selection of the most successful size cathegories.

GarryB and others will have hard time:
- defending that the gouvernment of Russia can forget to attend the main demand, distracted with marginal projects.
- defending that civil companies and the Russian Armed Forces share not the analysis of costs. It is the reality.
- defending that is not possible for the Russian Armed Forces to pack loads in order to achieve bigger cost effiency with the use of bigger aircrafts like the Russian civil aviation has been doing since years, even decades.
- defending that is not possible to combine effectively and efficiently the use of big auxiliary aircrafts with the use of helicopters to reach every mm of the Russian territory.
- defending that helicopters can not be used to attend the demand of smaller aircrafts of the civil and military air transport.

To note that the main aircraft of the Polar Airlines is the Mi-8 helicopter, and they reached in 2017: 0.10% Airliner + 0.16% Air-Cargo market share.

Eehnie your statement " in the first half of 2018 more than 25 An-26 have been scrapped without replacement by Il-112"

The simple reason as to why it hasn't been replaced by IL-112 is quite simple is because it isn't production yet. We also don't know the reasons for scrapping the aircraft made they were accident damaged. Or old and no longer economical to repair or old and surplus to requirements and scrapped for parts. But fact remains Russia is waiting to replace them with IL-112 when it's ready.


Secondly your statement " defending that helicopters can not be used to attend the demand of smaller aircrafts of the civil and military air transport. "

For example mi-8/mi-17 don't have the range of TVS 2DTS nor can they match on price nor running costs and flight endurance (TVS 2DTS 15+hours of constant flying without extra fuel)

And your other statement
" To note that the main aircraft of the Polar Airlines is the Mi-8 helicopter, and they reached in 2017: 0.10% Airliner + 0.16% Air-Cargo market share."

I am glad that you mentioned this. Depending sources they have
24-26 mi-8 helicopters
16-17 An-2
3 An-24
6 An-26
1-3 An-3
1 L-410

So if you look at similar size aircraft they have let's say that they have
26 mi-8 helicopters
Vs
17 An-2
3 An-3
1 L-410

That's only a margin of 5 extra helicopters not a massive difference.

But he's the key point I am trying to make. Polar Airlines have decided to purchase 200 TVS 2DTS aircraft. That's a clear indication of what they see is more useful to them and it wasn't helicopters. In fact with the number they plan to buy it's most likely that they will get rid of their current fleet and only operate one type of aircraft the TVS 2DTS which makes sense in terms of maintenance, costs, and capability. This should allow them to cover more routes and more flights per day covering morning afternoon and night time slots offering a better offer to there customers and aircrafts will likely be full. It's much better doing this than flying a half empty An-24/26 or constantly being fully booked but not having the capacity to use additional aircraft to make extra money and provide a better availability to their customers. TVS 2DTS is much more fuel efficient than the An-2 and any similar helicopter

I was on an aerosvit An-24 some many years ago flying from Crimea to Kiev and they only flew once a day. It was fully booked customers complained that they could never get a seat. And actually my friends there said many customers refused to use the service due them using old aircraft and poor maintenance.

Anyway it's very clear that cessna and various other aircraft makers, as well as sikorsky/Lockheed, Rostec and polar Airlines have seen the potential of this type of aircraft and I think that they know the needs of their customers and know the market much much better than anyone else on this forum. And I am sure that there aware of helicopters vs aircraft capabilities and have made there choice based on that also
The number of this type of aircraft around the world in service and will continue to be in service for a very long time is big and there's a market there hence aircraft companies still produce and design and develop this type of aircraft.
Russia/soviet union is well known for producing aircraft for small remote areas with short take off and landings in a rugged environment so why shouldn't Russian companies get there share of this market?

To note an aircraft is much more comfortable to flying in than an aircraft and paying customers want safety and comfort when flying. And using the TVS 2DTS will allow companies to lower their cost to operate and offer cheaper flights to customers compared to the cost of a helicopter.

Your comment agrees not with the reality GarryB.

At this point only 1 An-24 remains in cative service in the Naval Aviation:

https://russianplanes.net/planelist/Antonov/An-24

At same time, the Il-114 has been for sale since 1992, the last 26 years:

https://russianplanes.net/planelist/Ilushin/Il-114

In all this time no-one Il-114 entered in the Russian Armed Forces. Neither to replace the An-24 retired nor to replace other aircraft.

The transport aircrafts well adapted to the new armament and auxiliary equipment of the Russian Federation are just the aircrafts of the 2nd to the 6th size cathegories (approximately between 20 tons and 200 tons of payload). Smaller aircrafts can not transport a modern BMD or Typhoon 4x4.

Eehnie your point on the IL-114 fails to mention any of the comments below this might give a clear indication as to why none have entered service yet.


The IL-114 was produced from early 90's this wasn't a great time for Russia or any other ex soviet state and the western world was still slowing cooling down of cold war rhetoric. So buying this aircraft at launch would have small to nil. Also the IL-114 was plagued with various problems from the start til very recent. From problems with development, designs, engines, production,  financial problems, collapse of soviet union and numerous changes in onwership and building location so it's not surprising that orders have been poor. Also it's believed some parts had Been sourced in Ukraine so that was another issue from 2014.

Also other key point the IL 114 only received airworthiness certification on 26 April 1997. So this is also a major stumbling block.

Also it likely An-24 & An-26 were still in reasonable condition and with collapse of soviet union no money to replace them.  

In December 2016, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that production of the aircraft will be at the Nizhny Novgorod plant Sokol, starting in 2019-2020. Until 2025, almost 56 billion rubles from the state budget will finance the construction of 100 Il-114 planes. Although it's now been moved to MiG production center in Lukhovitsy


2017. Russian airlines will need around 60-80 turboprops with 50-60 seats over the next 10 to 15 years, said Yury Slusar UAC president.

In 2017 the Kremlin injected ₽$153mn into the Il-114-300 and for three years from 2018 UAC plans to invest $122mn for the Il-114-300.

It also seems that there looking into different variants as well. The IL-112 will replace An-24/26 in Russian Armed Forces and it seems that possibly thst the IL-114 will for civil use and possibly some specialist variants for the navy and artic regions. So this doesn't seem to be dead yet although it's had plenty of downs and very much ups hence not many been made but that wasn't down to demand. And things look like it's on the up.

Sources.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2018-07-09/kremlin-boosts-effort-toward-indigenization-ssj100

https://sputniknews.com/military/201612151048591227-aircraft-air-plane-manufacturing/

http://atwonline.com/paris-air-show-2017/uac-make-decision-130-seat-ssj100-2017

https://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/ilyushin-il-114/

The Russian armed forces received not a single Russian/Sovietic aircraft out of the scheme that I explained in the previous page, since the fall of the Soviet Union, since the end of 1991.

The next will be the first. If it happens.

All the Russian/Sovietic aircrafts delivered to the Russian Armed Forces in its modern history, since the end of 1991 (Il-76, Tu-204/214, Il-86/80/96, Tu-154, Mi-8 family, Ka-27 family, Mi-Ansat, Ka-226, Yak-130...), are inside the scheme of successfull cathegories that I explained in the previous page.

This is the reality. Not other.

I revert back to what I said in my previous posts to refute this claim. But I doubt anything has registered in the selected reading you do. All the sources and comments made and u still ignore the reasons given. Am very very bored of this

GarryB wrote:

All the Russian/Sovietic aircrafts delivered to the Russian Armed Forces in its modern history, since the end of 1991 (Il-76, Tu-204/214, Il-86/80/96, Tu-154, Mi-8 family, Ka-27 family, Mi-Ansat, Ka-226, Yak-130...), are inside the scheme of successfull cathegories that I explained in the previous page.

They also bought other aircraft... the An-148 for instance and negotiated a contract with the Ukraine and Iran to manufacture them... which obviously fell through when the Ukraine went all mental.

They are also now going to put into production the Russianised An-2, plus the Il-112 and Il-114, which don't fit in your categories of success.

Also to note that the aircraft eehnie mentioned were very much likely needed for replacement or demand than there was for other aircraft at the time also fails to mention from 1991 to around 2010 especially 1991-1998 Russia was recovering from the break up of the Soviet union and financial woes as well as facing conflicts in Chechnya which likely impacts on money available for replacement. It's very likely that there An-24/26 were still in reasonable condition I flew on An-24 in 2009 and still going strong. It's highly likely that purchases of other aircraft was more important. Like the L-39 was flown heavily and obviously needed replacing. And replacement is not something that just pops up in someones head it's been planned for years ahead. The Russians ain't stupid and prioritise what needs replacing first due need and condition of current aircraft it's replacing. Also jet aircraft and helicopters tend to be replaced quicker than turboprop aircraft this could be down to role, hours flown, maintenance cost, reliability, shell life, can't be certain exact reason for each aircraft. But I've seen many older turboprop aircraft in the sky than old jet aircraft and helicopters. If you notice that militaries are more likely to have older turboprop aircraft in service than older jet aircraft and helicopters must be a reason. But turboprop seem to serve a long life than others. This could be one of the factors it's not as if Russia don't use An-2, An-24/26 L-410 they do but due to long life of the aircraft has likely hasn't been in a rush to replace them in til recently.

They haven't produced Tu-95 since around the fall of soviet union either but aircraft is still being used and is still useful and yet despite how long it's been in service only in til the last few years have we been made aware of a replacement and that won't be for sometime. So basing on your reasoning because something hasn't been replaced or bought in the last couple of decades it's effectively useless?

It is false to say that it has not been Russian alternative. I included the Russian alternatives before (marked in blue):

eehnie wrote:All the successors of the An-72/71/74 have been unable to reach 50 units produced completed (this is also the Mi-46/AHL size cathegory). The production of the An-148/158/178 is being stopped in Russia by lack of orders:

7th cathegory Airliner aircraft: An-148/158/178 http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Antonov/An-148
7th cathegory Transport aircraft: Be-200 http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Beriev/Be-200
7th cathegory Transport aircraft: Yak-44 https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=1170
7th cathegory Airliner aircraft: Tu-414 https://web.archive.org/web/20070208060848/http://www.tupolev.ru:80/English/Show.asp?SectionID=124

All the successors of the An-24/26/30/32 have been unable to reach 50 units produced completed (this is also the Mi-38 size cathegory):

8th cathegory Airliner aircraft: Tu-324 https://web.archive.org/web/20070208060848/http://www.tupolev.ru:80/English/Show.asp?SectionID=124
8th cathegory Airliner aircraft: Il-114 http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Ilushin/Il-114
8th cathegory Airliner aircraft: An-140 http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Antonov/An-140
8th cathegory Transport aircraft: Il-112 http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Ilushin/Il-112
8th cathegory Transport aircraft: Tu-130/136 https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/tu-136.htm
8th cathegory Transport aircraft: MiG-110 http://avia.pro/blog/mig-110

While the Yak-130 trainer surpassed this level of production successfully, the last successful transport/airliner aircraft in the size cathegory of the Mi-8 and Ka-27 families is earlier still. All the recent projects have been unable to reach 50 units produced completed:

9th cathegory Airliner aircraft: Yak-48 http://avia.pro/blog/yak-48
9th cathegory Airliner aircraft: Il-108 https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1990/1990%20-%201314.html
9th cathegory Transport aircraft: Su-80 http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Sukhoi/Su-80
9th cathegory Transport aircraft: Be-112 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/sea/be112.html

All the successors of the Che-22 have been unable to reach 50 units produced completed (this is also the Ka-60/62 size cathegory), and a good number of units of the L-410 remain in stock without finding a customer that purchase them:

10th cathegory Trainer aircraft: MiG-AT http://www.airwar.ru/enc/attack/migat.html
10th cathegory Airliner aircraft: M-302 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aliner/m302.html
10th cathegory Airliner aircraft: M-202 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aliner/m202.html
10th cathegory Transport aircraft: TVS 2DTS https://ruslet.webnode.cz/technika/ruska-technika/letecka-technika/sibnia/tvs-2dts/
10th cathegory Transport aircraft: T-208 Eagle http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/t208.html

All the successors of the An-2/4/6 have been unable to reach 50 units produced completed (this is also the Mi-Ansat size cathegory):

11th cathegory Transport aircraft: T-101/130/210 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/craft/t101.html http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/t130.html http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/t210.html
11th cathegory Transport aircraft: T-207 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/t207.html
11th cathegory Airliner aircraft: M-102 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aliner/m102.html
11th cathegory Airliner aircraft: Rysachok http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Technoavia/Rysachyok
11th cathegory Airliner aircraft: MiG-125 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/aliner/mig125.html
11th cathegory Transport aircraft: T-115 Niva http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/t115.html
11th cathegory Airliner aircraft: T-440 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/t440.html

The last successful aircraft in the size cathegory of the Ka-226 is also earlier. All the recent projects have been unable to reach 50 units produced completed:

12th cathegory Transport aircraft: T-517 Fermer http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/t517.html
12th cathegory Airliner aircraft: GM-17 Viper http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/gm17.html
12th cathegory Airliner aircraft: M-101 http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Myasishchev/M-101
12th cathegory Trainer aircraft: SR-10 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/other/sr10.html
12th cathegory Transport aircraft: SM92 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/craft/sm92.html
12th cathegory Transport aircraft: M-500 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/m500.html
12th cathegory Transport aircraft: T-507 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/t507.html
12th cathegory Transport aircraft: T-511 Aist-M http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/t511.html
12th cathegory Transport aircraft: LA-8 http://avia.pro/blog/la-8-aerovolga-tehnicheskie-harakteristiki-foto
12th cathegory Airliner aircraft: SA-20P http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/sa20p.html
12th cathegory Airliner aircraft: Be-103 http://russianplanes.net/planelist/Beriev/Be-103
12th cathegory Airliner aircraft: Akkord-201 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/akkord201.html

Checking case per case the market reality that these models suffered and are suffering, my words are perfectly understandable.
To note that the far bigger and far more expensive An-124 surpassed 50 units produced completed.

No-one of the aircrafts in blue reached the Russian Armed Forces since the end of 1991. Not a single unit of Russian airliner or transport aircrafts of these size cathegories has been delivered to the Russian Armed Forces after the fall of the Soviet Union. To be all Russian only has been a requirement since 2014. It explains not the lack of orders of the Russian aircrafts with some foreign component between the end of 1991 and 2014, including the lack of orders of the Il-114 between 1992 and 2014.

It has been instead, 3 orders (very low compared to the number of orders of Russian aircrafts in the successfull cathegories) of foreign aricrafts of these cathegories (An-148/158/178, An-140 and L-410), over the Russian alternatives. They have been considered small contracts for political purposes signed after the war of Georgia of 2008, that have not been completed at this point. The problem for Russia with the freezing of these contracts after the war of Donbass in 2014 is exactly 0. The production of the An-148/158/178 started in Russia, but is being stopped now, at the end of the contract of the Russian Armed Forces, by lack of new civil or military orders.

Massive problems with your data. For one the TVS 2DTS is replacing the An-2 and yet your data says otherwise. Also there's a very good reason why TVS 2DTS hasn't reached 50 units yet and that's because production hasn't started yet but am order has been placed for 200.

As for the other aircraft in blue which I glanced over have they ever been in production? And for instance a be-103 is a very small niche market and is nothing like what u compare it to it has a completely different role and not to mention 3 ended in usa of all countries and China looking to order 17-20 aircraft which isn't bad considering the niche market. If it never made it into production then you can use that as a gauge of sales there could many reasons as I said for it not coming into production If not could be multiple reasons. Yet again my previous posts refutes your claims again and again.

Also everybody knows that the an-148 etc were no longer produced was NOT due to lack of orders but production rights AND you fail to even realise that IL -112 is now being designed they would not be designing such plane if there wasn't a need.

d_taddei2 wrote:Massive problems with your data. For one the TVS 2DTS is replacing the An-2 and yet your data says otherwise. Also there's a very good reason why TVS 2DTS hasn't reached 50 units yet and that's because production hasn't started yet but am order has been placed for 200.

As for the other aircraft in blue which I glanced over have they ever been in production? If not could be multiple reasons. Yet again my previous posts refutes your claims again and again

The list is a list of alternatives. Is not the TVS 2DTS an alternative? Yes. Right.
No-one of the aircrafts of the list reached 50 units produced completed. Reached the TVS 2DTS 50 units produced completed? No. Right.
The aircrafts marked in blue reached not the Russian Armed Forces. Reached the TVS 2DTS the Russian Armed Forces? No. Right.
The aircrafts marked in pink are foreing aircrafts that reached the Russian Armed Forces by contracts of political nature.

In my opinion, based on technical issues, no-one of these projects have a good prospect to reach 50 units produced completed.
In my opinion, based on technical issues, the aircrafts marked in blue have not a good prospect to reach effectively the Russian Armed Forces, and the aircrafts marked in pink have a good prospect to leave the Russian Armed Foces in the mid-term.

Some of the projects of the list reached production stage and are for sale with weak performance, like the Il-114. Others stopped production after weak performance in the market. Others reached not production stage by lack of interest of potential customers. Many of these projects were presented with overoptimistic plans of production, that are not becoming real.

All is right in the list.

The alone problem is that there are two factories (in Taganrog and Yekaterinburg) that require stronger options to produce, and they will have. That is all.

eehnie wrote:

d_taddei2 wrote:Massive problems with your data. For one the TVS 2DTS is replacing the An-2 and yet your data says otherwise. Also there's a very good reason why TVS 2DTS hasn't reached 50 units yet and that's because production hasn't started yet but am order has been placed for 200.

As for the other aircraft in blue which I glanced over have they ever been in production? If not could be multiple reasons. Yet again my previous posts refutes your claims again and again

The list is a list of alternatives. Is not the TVS 2DTS an alternative? Yes. Right.
No-one of the aircrafts of the list reached 50 units produced completed. Reached the TVS 2DTS 50 units produced completed? No. Right.
The aircrafts marked in blue reached not the Russian Armed Forces. Reached the TVS 2DTS the Russian Armed Forces? No. Right.
The aircrafts marked in pink are foreing aircrafts that reached the Russian Armed Forces by contracts of political nature.

In my opinion, based on technical issues, no-one of these projects have a good prospect to reach 50 units produced completed.
In my opinion, based on technical issues, the aircrafts marked in blue have not a good prospect to reach effectively the Russian Armed Forces, and the aircrafts marked in pink have a good prospect to leave the Russian Armed Foces in the mid-term.

Some of the projects of the list reached production stage and are for sale with weak performance, like the Il-114. Others stopped production after weak performance in the market. Others reached not production stage by lack of interest of potential customers. Many of these projects were presented with overoptimistic plans of production, that are not becoming real.

All is right in the list.

The alone problem is that there are two factories (in Taganrog and Yekaterinburg) that require stronger options to produce, and they will have. That is all.

A big fat
NO
NO
NO
You placed the TVS 2DTS into a category to which it wasn't replacing any of the aircraft you mentioned in that category it's replacing the An-2 yet absent from your category for replacement aircraft for an-2.


You state that Russia has not purchased anything that you written in blue nor has anything reached 50+ sales the TVS 2DTS being one of them tell how on earth can anyone buy anything that hasn't made it into production? And how can 50+ be had if production hadn't started yet it's pretty basic and common sense surely even you can see that. Quite simply you cant expect something to be in physical service if it hasn't been produced yet. And you still fail to recognise that polar Airlines have placed an order for 200. Has this escaped your mind? Or you dismissing polar Airlines and Rostecs words?

The reports talk about a Maximum Take-Off Weight of 7300 Kg for the TVS 2DTS. Everyone knows that this is significantly bigger than the MTOW of the An-2/4/6. This is how longer range and improvements in other features are achieved, but this has a consequence in the weight of the aircraft. This is nothing new because other aircrafts also listed, checked before this neighbor size cathegory, with the result that is being commented for all them. The TVS 2DTS is in the right place of the list.

 It is you who are reading the links by the first time. Maybe you who are still in the wikipedia phase, and d_taddei not even there.

Neither realized still that the Su-26/29/31 is included in my refereces of the previous page, and is in the 13th size category, not in the 12th size category. The 13th size category are roughly aircrafts of 2125 Kg of MTOW or less, and obviously have very low payload if some. Basically trainer (successfull as reflected in the scheme), agricultural (successfull in the previous century but declining), aerobatic and rich person caprice aircrafts, plus helicopters. In this category the helicopters seem not successfull, and this is why this category is different to the 7th to 12th categories.

Here you have multiple examples of the 13th category that succeed not, but unlike in other categories the list is not complete:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t4312p75-russian-transport-aircraft-fleet-vta#189143

13th category Airliner aircraft: Yak-58 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/craft/yak58.html
13th category Transport aircraft: Su-38 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/la/su38.html
13th category Helicopter: Ka-115 http://avia-pro.net/blog/vertolet-ka-115-foto-harakteristiki
13th category Transport aircraft: T-411 http://avia.pro/blog/hrunichev-t-411-aist-tehnicheskie-harakteristiki-foto
13th category Transport aircraft: Chaika L-4/42/44 http://avia.pro/blog/l-44-tehnicheskie-harakteristiki-foto
13th category Airliner aircraft: BT-4 http://avia.pro/blog/vt-4-tehnicheskie-harakteristiki-foto
13th category Transport aircraft: Yak-112 http://www.airwar.ru/enc/craft/yak112.html
(and a lot more of every type in the 13th category) http://www.airwar.ru/lanow.html http://www.airwar.ru/shanow.html http://avia-pro.net/vertolety

To note that the reference as airliner or transport aircraft is more structural than other thing, because these aircrafts have not payload to transport persons or materials.
To note that I checked a lot more that these options, finding the successful cases.

Eehnie say what u want your list was complete shite and you still failed to acknowledge anything anyone says regardless who says it. You ignore ex servicemen you ignore polar Airlines and Rostec and even ignore any links which I provided (no wiki links might I add) the reason for this is simple u can't accept any link or anyones experience simply because it wasn't posted by you. Regarding categories regardless of categories the fact remains that the TVS 2DTS is replacing the An -2. And still you fail to see that your saying the the TVS 2DTS has failed to each 50 units which is even by your standards moronic as I stated it's not in production yet your comment may have been valid had in been in production for some years hence this backs up that your list and comments are flawed.

Another logic you seem to have is that small aircraft are useless and anything big is great another completely stupid comment which might add your argument has been completely debunked but u failed to notice that. Especially when u ignoredthe point on parachute jumps never use small aircraft not only did u ignore ex servicemens experiences and ignore articles on it that I posted. It's seems you have some sort of mental block on anything that isn't of your view. So going back to your logic small vs large aircraft Russia should just scrap everything and just use An--124 even when only transporting small loads because according to your logic it's more economical and better hmmmmmmm oh ok eehnie. Quite frankly your ignorance is a hindrance to you expanding your knowledge of anything you should really try to listen to ex servicemen and experts views in articles rather than thinking your views on the subject are gospel because I ain't an expert and neither are you. Stop thinking you are you might actually learn something.

Oh polar Airlines have placed an order for 200 aircraft eehnie incase you failed to see that.

https://www.favt.ru/public/materials//e/b/8/9/5/eb89549831e6b870264709b135c089a7.pdf
https://www.favt.ru/public/materials//a/4/6/3/b/a463b5ebe5e2ef4c577c261652a38707.pdf

To note that Polar Airlines reached in 2017 in Russia: 0.10% Airliner + 0.16% Air-Cargo market share.

To note that the main aircraft of the Polar Airlines is the Mi-8 helicopter.

eehnie wrote:https://www.favt.ru/public/materials//e/b/8/9/5/eb89549831e6b870264709b135c089a7.pdf
https://www.favt.ru/public/materials//a/4/6/3/b/a463b5ebe5e2ef4c577c261652a38707.pdf

To note that Polar Airlines reached in 2017 in Russia: 0.10% Airliner + 0.16% Air-Cargo market share.

To note that the main aircraft of the Polar Airlines is the Mi-8 helicopter.

I've already covered this earlier in a counter debate.
I will cover again in brief
They have around
17-18 An-2
3 An-3
1 L -410
So in that size 21 aircraft and they have around
24-26 mi-8 so a majority by 3-5 aircraft not a massive majority eehnie. And you fail to see that they have placed an order for 200 TVS 2DTS which seems very likely that they are replacing their whole of aircraft to one type of aircraft the TVS 2DTS which makes perfect sense economically rather than running different types of aircraft and streamline maintenance. So it seems they favour the TVS 2DTS for there needs and as I mentioned this type of aircraft is much safer than helicopters and much more comfortable flying experience for customers.

GarryB wrote:Your list is interesting, but is more a list of all potential aircraft... ignoring what has a chance and what does not.

Instead of taking data from tables, you should be reading up about the planes as well and that would tell you what is a shot in the dark idea with no real chance of becoming a viable alternative, and what was very promising but still likely wont be made, and what is both viable and supported by the people who actually make planes and has actual contracts to be made.

More importantly you need to realise that politics and economics are just as important as performance.

Performance alone would mean the An-70 would already be in full production and in service with the Russian military... they took part in the design and it is pretty much exactly what they wanted... but politics has gotten in the way and now the solution is looking like it is going to be the upgraded Il-476... which was going to be replaced by the An-70.... as the 50 ton payload transport.

Personally I think the Il-476 is a much better aircraft so I don't think it is a bad thing overall, but for the people who were going to earn a living making the aircraft, it might not be such a good thing... but as many of them and those making the engines are Ukrainian and hate Russians, I am not losing sleep over the incompetence of their leadership and the consequences for their country.

No GarryB, no, I ignored not what aircraft has a chance and what not. I just analyzed it:

- Exposing the reality of the Russian Armed forces almost coincident with the successful Russia aircrafts:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t4312p225-russian-transport-aircraft-fleet-vta#212784

- Exposing the recent and current reality of the Russian civil market and in which cathegories is the real demand:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7684p75-utility-auxilliary-aircrafts-in-ruaf#234643

- Exposing the reality of the size cathegories that are failing for the different roles, with references to the different cases that succeed not:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t4312p75-russian-transport-aircraft-fleet-vta#189143

To note that most of these projects had nice plans that have not been becoming real, and to note that many of these projects are of companies included in the United Aricraft Corporation, but it made not them successfull.

- Exposing also the list of projects with good prospect, which development would be most important in order to complete the current new generation of Russian armament and equipment of the first quarter of the XXI century, in adition to the Mi-38, Yak-152 and the rest of successfull projects of the generation:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032-state-armament-program-2018-2027#204557

eehnie wrote:Ka-60/62 (in the Che-22 10th size class with around 2.5 tons payload)
Tu-330 (in the Tu-204/214 5th size class with around 40 tons payload).
Mi-46/AHL (in the An-72/71/74 7th size class with around 15 tons payload).
Il-106/PTS Ermak 80 (in the An-22 3rd size class with around 80 tons payload).
Il-276 (in the An-10/12 6th size class with around 20 tons payload).
PTS Ermak 160 (in the An-124 2nd size class with around 160 tons payload).
Tu-304/Frigate Freejet (in the Il-62 4th size class for double configuration: 1 mid passenger capacity + long range, 2 high passenger capacity + mid range).
New Aircraft (in the Il-76/78 Be-A50 4th size class with around 60 tons payload).
CRAIC CR929 (in the Il-86/80/96 3rd size class for high passenger capacity + long range).
Ka-40 Minoga (in the Ka/27/28/29/31/32/35 9th size class with around 5 tons payload).
New Helicopter (in the Mi-26/27 6th size class with around 20 tons payload.
MS-21/Yak-242 (in the Tu-204/214 5th size class for mid passenger capacity + mid range).

- Exposing the list of projects of the successfull categories that would be redundant at this point, but have the option of becoming the basis for future developments of the future generation of Russian armament and equipment of the second quarter of the XXI Century:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2027#213501

eehnie wrote:Tu-334 (airliner aircraft in the Su-SJ-100 6th size class)
Tu-230 (transport aircraft in the An-10/12 6th size class)
Ka-102 (helicopter in the Mi-6/10/22 7th size class
Ka-92 (helicopter in the Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 9th size class
Ka-90 (helicopter in the Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 9th size class
Mi-X1 (helicopter in the Ka-27/28/29/31/32/35 9th size class)
Mi-54 (helicopter in the Mi-Ansat 11th size class)
Ka-118 (helicopter in the Ka-226 12th size class)

At this point the alone aircraft in the successfull categories which development I do not consider conceptually oriented to a modern demand would be the Be A-40/42. And as consequence, in my opinion, is the most likely to fail definitely.

The difference between the number of not successfull projects in the size categories marked as successfull and unsuccessfull for every main role is really big.

- And finally exposing the consequences of the weakest politically influenced contracts:

https://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p125-state-armament-program-2018-2027#234248

Nothing of this is casual, and the Il-112 and the TVS 2DTS have strong market trends against that the gouvernment of Russia is not forced to break entering very likely in economic loses, when they have at this point an alternative offer of competent helicopters that are prefered by the markets and by the Russian Armed Forces. The helicopters have their own flaws for combat purposes, but as  small airliner or transport auxiliary aircrafts are stronger in overall terms.

Taking into account the new projects with good prospect, the gouvernment of Russia has also the option of placing the production of some new aircrafts and helicopters in the factories that today need better options to produce, without affecting to the natural replacement succession of the models produced in other factories (as example it would be logical to assign to VASO Voronezh the production of he CRAIC CR929 as successor of the Il-86/80/96):
- Beriev Taganrog (Aircrafts): Several options, Tu-330, Il-106/PTS Ermak 80, Il-276, Tu-304/Frigate Freejet.
- UZGA Yekaterinburg (Helicopters): Mi-46/AHL for Russian and other export markets.
- Aviakor Samara (Aircrafts): Several options, Tu-330, Il-106/PTS Ermak 80, Il-276, Tu-304/Frigate Freejet.
And very likely Russia will need to find new factories to produce UAVs (including combat UAVs).