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    Russian defence against drone swarms

    GunshipDemocracy
    GunshipDemocracy


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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:14 am

    Source: Russia conducted successful field tests of a laser gun

    Russia conducted successful field tests of a laser gun to eliminate UAVs

    "Successful tests of a combat laser designed to destroy unmanned aerial vehicles were carried out at one of the Russian military training grounds. The laser gun demonstrated high efficiency in hitting UAVs in the near zone," the agency's interlocutor said.

    As the source clarified, during the tests, "the combat laser of the infrared spectrum ensured the physical destruction of drones, in particular, burning the aerodynamic surfaces of the vehicles or burning their body along with on-board equipment."
    "Drones of both aircraft and quadrocopter types were destroyed by the laser," he added.


    https://ria.ru/20230826/pushka-1892341827.html

    it might be even cheaper then Sosna or 57mm





    ucmvulcan wrote:

    3. Hopefully someone at the Frunze Embankment gets it that Ukraine does these attacks because planes blowing up makes the 10 o'clock news and realizes that concrete protected hangars will all but end these gnat bite raids.

    one of Russian telgram reporters sarcastically mentioned:  building steel hangars  is so hard for us that building new planes is easier affraid affraid affraid









    4. 2 to 4 planes. What changes? Ukraine has lost as many as 400,000 dead, maybe three times as many wounded so 1.2 million.  Russia? Well go by BBC, their social media report of 25,000 was good journalism and probably reflects reality. So Russian dead is 30,000 and wounded is 90,000.  Ultimately, flea bite raids will be given mega coverage by the corporate state controlled press, but when you see just what a complete and utter failure their glorious offensive that they claimed would put them in Marioupol a month ago and was armed with all of NATO's game changing wonderwaffles, really what changes?
    .

    It changes all, they're winning! lol1 lol1 lol1


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:25 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:The main problem with drone strikes is lack of Niobium SV radar

    Niobium and Nebo radars can track plastic FPV drones,  which was proven on combat approved


    looks like Shoigu reads our forum after all Razz Razz Razz


    Shoigu instructed to increase the production of radars for the needs of a special operation


    MOSCOW, August 30 - RIA Novosti. Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu set the task of increasing the production and repair of radar detection equipment used as part of the NMD, the press service of the Russian Defense Ministry said on Wednesday.

    "Following the results of the work, General of the Army Sergei Shoigu held a meeting with the participation of the management of the enterprise and the relevant bodies of the military administration. The head of the Russian military department set the task of increasing the production and repair of radar detection equipment used in the interests of conducting a special military operation," the message says.

    https://ria.ru/20230830/shoygu-1893172419.html

    +

    The Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation demanded that the management of the concern organize round-the-clock work of the enterprise, in 24/7 mode.
    https://t.me/mod_russia/29937

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:06 am

    Unable to post video. So a few stills
    Mi-28 shooting down a drone. First pic you can see the 30mm rounds flying towards it. Second pic of it being destroyed.

    Nice... the combination of air burst 30mm shells and being able to fire from above at a target would limit the collateral damage caused by firing a 30mm cannon around the place. The helicopter already has high res thermals and other optics and radar so its ability to find and engage drones should be pretty good.

    It was supposed to be a feature of the new Mi-28NM.

    That seems to be a very big powerful drone that is exploding...

    Russians won this war the moment their economy kept running during wartime

    Actually this conflict is allowing Russia to clean house and get rid of foreign owners of Russian companies and organisations that have been bleeding Russia for decades... but not just that, the Russians have been selling cheap energy and raw materials to Europe for decades to be nice and not just Europe, but Japan and the US as well and what did they get in return... getting to buy the finished products at 10x the price... Japanese fishermen fishing in Russian waters and sending the fish to be canned in Japan and then sold on the Russian market at 10 times the price Japanese customers buy the same thing for in Japan... Russia has been getting screwed all these decades and now they can look to the rest of the world.

    Ironically the rest of the world is getting screwed by the west too and they are sick of it as well, so Russia and the rest of the world can trade and both make good money and not get overcharged so their consumers can get better goods for reasonable prices without any slave labour necessary for anyone...

    It is a win win for Russia and the rest of the world... except the west is going to find it much harder from now on and I suspect the rich will still keep getting richer which is going to lead to the poor asking why the rich are so damn rich and everyone else struggles just to keep the lights on.

    But that is not Russias problem.

    Some 57mm guns with high explosive fragmenting munitions would stop the approach of drones easily

    23mm guns with airburst shells would be rather cheaper and the vehicles carrying them lighter and they could carry rather more ready to fire ammo.

    Also I think SOSNA is better than pantsir for these targets, where you need cheap command guidance missiles and some 57mm flak to bring them down

    SOSNA is a smaller lighter more cost effective missile and out to 10km would be very effective, but then the new BULAT missiles with laser beam riding and a HEFRAG warhead would be rather interesting too.

    Lasers are maturing and of course EM weapons could also be part of the solutions too.

    I don't think the answer is flak, I think the answer is another drone swarm and radar that can direct either armored drones to smash the attacking drones, or explosive drone that can shower the attacking swarm with shrapnel. Also a Grad rocket that deploys 4 subrockets with a net would take down a lot of drones.

    If the airburst rounds are affordable then it makes sense to use them in large numbers.

    The added bonus is that airburst rounds are also very effective against some types of targets like enemy troops hiding behind a wall or fence or in a trench where direct or frontal fire would not be effective at all.

    The problem traditionally is the time accuracy necessary to make them effective also makes them expensive to use in large numbers, but a simple command detonated round would be excellent... put the expensive stuff on the vehicle so it gets reused over and over.

    A drone swarm is interesting... but with cardboard drones and light plastic drones designed to be invisible on radar means they are going to be very light weight and weak so a ramming drone or a drone with a shotgun weapon loaded starts to make sense... especially if it can land and have its magazine replaced and take off again to continue the job.

    With a normal drone heavy shot would be needed to assure a kill so buckshot, which reduces the number of projectiles in each shot, but against cardboard or light plastic then lighter shot can be used with vastly more projectiles.

    Different sized shot means effectiveness will vary, so the light pellets of a number 3 shot round would shred most targets at 10-20m but at 100m might just bounce off many targets, whereas a buckshot round has ball bearings that would still penetrate at 100m but the problem is that there will only be 12 ball bearings in each shot and at 100m they will be spread over a circle 20m across which means while they might damage the target then odds are they wont hit the target in the first place.

    A shotgun works best at a range where the projectiles all hit relatively close to the point of aim because there is no way to control the pattern of hits.

    At very close range a shotgun would be ideal but if the target is explosive like a Geran then shooting it might just set it off and destroy the target you are protecting anyway... or it might kill you.

    Reminds me of a Soviet Spetsnaz group in Afghanistan who found an Afghan with a pile of pebbles and a pebble sized hole in the front of his head. Petal mines had been dropped and he was eliminating them by throwing pebbles at them to destroy them. One mine he hit at the wrong angle and the explosion blew the pebble straight back at him and blew the pebble into the back of his skull.

    Finding a guy with a shotgun peppered with shrapnel because he detonated a drone with a big bomb would be the equivalent.

    To hit such targets at useful ranges requires airburst ammo, but if you can make it command detonated then the distance you can hit drones would be very useful.

    The 2A7 cannon of the ZSU-23-4 is water cooled and has a good muzzle velocity so the calculations for an intercept are made simpler out to about 2km or so.

    If you can get the price down to perhaps $20 per shot, you could mass produce them in enormous numbers and of course even against troops in the field or soft targets like cars an airburst round can do damage and kill with a round that would otherwise have not hit the target directly.

    A burst of 10 shells where one round hits the target will do damage, but 10 rounds that all explode at or near the targets location will be devastating to unarmoured targets and pretty damn scary even for armoured targets watching these rounds explode all around you.

    So far it seems they have airburst 23mm shells and airburst 30mm shells and airburst 57mm shells... I would like to see the same technology used to create airburst 40mm grenades, which would be devastating... a 40mm or 30mm grenade set to detonate after travelling 30-40m would be an excellent anti drone weapon for a drone... a cheap simple laser rangefinder and optical based ballistics computer could allow an AI system to fire the gun once the targets are selected...

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    mnztr


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    Post  mnztr Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:25 am

    caveat emptor wrote:
    mnztr wrote:
    Also a Grad rocket that deploys 4 subrockets with a net would take down a lot of drones.

    Bro, seriously?! Very Happy

    Yes seriously they have gun nets, why not rocket nets. Especially for swarms.https://defense-update.com/20220222_skyinterceptor.html
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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Thu Aug 31, 2023 8:10 am

    You haven't reinvented the wheel, sadly.
    Missile carried anti-missile nets were seriously considered as a part of ABM defense in the 60s. Soviets experimented heavily with those.
    As for guns against drones, one thing is to be remembered.
    Bigger caliber means a higher operation envelope.
    23mm gun is effective up to around 1500m in height. It can be easily outperformed even by really cheap drones, which means your coverage must be extremely dense.
    With 100mm gun, you can reach 10 km height and some 20 km distance using modern ammunition. HArdly any drone flies that high those days, and it will be restricted only to some really expensive, high tier pieces.
    Last but not least, 100 mm ammunition is big enough to get airburst fuze, or programmable one, or remotely detonated ... It will be very cost effective fighting drones.
    Making a tier of anti drone defense of 300 km requires three batteries. That's all.
    It is not an accident that a country that leads the worlds drone warfare - Iran - has the gun taddei mentioned and develops it heavily.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:01 am

    Flak is basically just shrapnel; so larger shells in that case - but those are long out of production and the guns for them. Otherwise it would be a sound idea

    It would be useful for the larger shells to be fired from guns that are actually already in use... perhaps an airburst 100mm HE shell for the BMP-3 vehicle... or perhaps for air burst shells being developed for grenade launchers which have a much higher ratio of HE to splinters making them rather more effective for air burst rounds than their calibre would otherwise suggest.

    That would mean 57mm grenade or 40mm grenade or 30mm grenade rounds with airburst components added... such ammo is generally compact with propellent being tiny in terms of volume, and in fact in the case of the Russian 40mm grenade (both under barrel and new automatic grenade launcher types) there is no propellent case, so the ammo is rather compact for what it is.

    Being mostly bomb their low velocity is not important because part of the command detonation system would include a ballistics computer anyway... the low velocity being compensated for heavier weights of metal fragments and HE payload.

    This might be expensive, but what about stations with infrared vision and laser range finders that have extremely fast moving heads. I'm talking spinning and oscillating sensor heads that spin and move up and down simultaneously at about 20/30 rotations and up/down oscillations a second. This all connected to some serious computing hardware with complex neural network programs that can automatically detect targets.

    Or do you mean LIDAR?


    I would imagine large flak shells 85mm, 100mm, and maybe 130mm will still be floating around in storage as will be the equipment to make such.

    A 100mm shell wont be cheap, and while it will have enormous potential range against drones, you likely wont be spotting targets at such range... which would be like trying to use a 50 cal sniper rifle to shoot soft targets you likely wont be seeing till they are 200m away.

    Plus for accuracy you would need new ammo with air burst potential which totally eliminates the advantage of using an old gun.

    Using 57mm ex AA guns for hitting enemy defended positions makes sense because they have the guns and put them on the back of vehicles for mobility and they have plenty of ammo... HE and AP... and the distances they will be firing and the targets they will be shooting the very old ammo for shooting at aircraft will be plenty good enough.

    For a modern battlefield for a modern BMP however the old AA guns never had great armour piercing performance because they were never used as anti tank weapons so their anti armour rounds are designed to have the same ballistic performance as their HE rounds so both types shoot to the same point of aim when fired together.

    The lack of armour penetration performance was not an issue because aircraft are not very well armoured anyway.

    In comparison the 57mm large HE bomb and APFSDS would have completely different ballistic trajectories... the HE round like a rainbow and the APFSDS relatively flat out to quite decent ranges.

    Shooting them both in a belt means a hit then a miss...

    Tbh even ZSU-23-4 would be adequate

    With airburst 23mm cannon shells and the right optics and radar equipment I would say removing two barrels and using the ammo for the four cannon fired from two cannon would be just fine. Excellent for use against drones and still useful against a range of ground and air targets depending on the ammo you use.

    23mm would be good enough considering the distances you will be spotting drones at, especially the smaller ones.

    30mm would allow engagements at greater ranges and also for taking down stronger built drones.

    one of Russian telgram reporters sarcastically mentioned: building steel hangars is so hard for us that building new planes is easier

    Planes can't take off from or land in hangars and when they are not in hangars they are just as vulnerable as if the hangers were never built.

    Also what size hangars are we talking about... to house Il-76 aircraft they are going to have to be enormous... how do you stop a drone attack flying into the hangars?

    The main problem with drone strikes is lack of Niobium SV radar

    Niobium and Nebo radars can track plastic FPV drones, which was proven on combat approved

    The Russian military is designed to defend itself, but drone attacks on infrastructure by the nazis means they have to try to defend everything... there are millions of potential targets the Orcs can try to hit with drones... the Russian military cannot cover them all, it would be ridiculous to try.

    No western country could defend its own territory either... it is just not possible and that is why they developed drones... because their conventional aircraft and missiles just wont make it but a few drones might.

    You wont see the thousands of drones they lost or failied... you just see the one that got through.


    Yes seriously they have gun nets, why not rocket nets

    The bigger you make a net the more rapidly it becomes big and bulky and difficult to deploy properly... to have a 10m by 10m net it would be cheaper and easier to have a 10kg HE bomb with 20kgs of metal fragments that covers an area 10m by 10m with high velocity fragments that will rip a drone to pieces even if it doesn't catch them in a net.

    Net guns are used to recover animals to keep them intact... a pointless exercise if the target is a suicide drone with a bomb on board.

    Last but not least, 100 mm ammunition is big enough to get airburst fuze, or programmable one, or remotely detonated ... It will be very cost effective fighting drones.
    Making a tier of anti drone defense of 300 km requires three batteries. That's all.
    It is not an accident that a country that leads the worlds drone warfare - Iran - has the gun taddei mentioned and develops it heavily.

    And its performance could be massively enhanced with an airship that carries radar arrays that scan the terrain below 24/7 and transmits target information to those firebases with the long range guns.

    But more importantly they are funding 152mm guns that shoot 70km or soon perhaps 180km so why use 100mm when you can use 152mm or 203mm for the job and also use it as standard artillery too so when you are not shelling an enemy position you can be shooting down all their drones.

    That airship could be fitted with all sorts of sensors including LIDAR and EO systems for finding and tracking drones and other threats.

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    ALAMO


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    Post  ALAMO Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:13 am

    Yup.
    And considering that, a 152 mm projectile can get as high as 18-20 km and I guess some 40 km range.
    Forget 70,it is a ballistic range with a descending phase.
    Still, a 40 km ranged missile is not a toy. It is more than you can achieve with land versions of AMRAAM or IRIS, usually to get so high/far means a two stage missile much more complicated than Pancyr.
    Anyway, one battery will cover a 70-80 km area which is enough to protect a city.
    Connect every gun to optic fibre high speed internet, which runs through any modern city all over, and you get a maximal redundant system where every gun can be located at any random place. Same applies to data center, one just need to feed it with recon data of all sorts for further distribution. This system would be highly immune for any attempts to break the communication, extremely redundant and flexible. It is all passive, which is not of much importance fighting drones, but would be to defeat a combined attacks in a style Russkie carried. When anti radar missiles just waited for the AD radars to activate while fighting the drones to take them out ...
    I seriously expect a renaissance of barrel anti aircraft artillery, soon ...

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    JohninMK
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    Post  JohninMK Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:33 am

    Garry, this is a good little anti drone discussion that will get lost here.

    Can you consider moving it to an 'Army' thread?

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole Thu Aug 31, 2023 11:08 am

    building steel hangars 
    When will those stupid people learn that a HAS will never protect a plane that is standing at the flightline?  Rolling Eyes

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    franco
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    Post  franco Thu Aug 31, 2023 12:30 pm

    caveat emptor wrote:
    flamming_python wrote:

    In that case all civilian activities should be transferred elsewhere, and the same goes for other such bases too. There is no way to secure such airbases while they don't have a large restricted territory around them (the Russian term is ZATO) and have civilians coming to and from all the time. Then anti-drone measures and EW systems can be employed more freely. The lack of civilian air traffic will also clear the skies some more.

    This particular airport is hard to protect, as it is literally within city limits. There are houses and industrial buildings on the other side of the airport fence. Better solution would be to move planes somewhere safer, where tampon zone can be built. You can even use Google street view to inspect parts of the airport fence at some places Also, some parts of the airport infrastructure is barely 100 meter distance from first industrial sites. Anyone could attack with FPV drones from there and disappear in five minutes.

    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 13 Google11
    Yellow is the airport fence

    To give perspective to the airport and the military: the nice row of buildings in the top left hand corner of the photo across the river is the base of the 76th Guards Airborne division minus 1 regiment. Go south of the airport along the river just out of view, you have the home base of the 2nd Guards Spetsnaz brigade. Past it about 10 kms and the remaining regimental base of the 76th is located.

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    Post  ALAMO Thu Aug 31, 2023 12:48 pm

    It is kind of typical solution constructed in the years of peace.

    The biggest military transport aviation hub in Poland is Balice/Krakow. Airfield is shared with civilian airport Balice, and neighbour highway just by the fence. You can easily see every daily activity just bypassing the highway, or renting an apartment that is on the other side of a highway.
    It might be some 1000m straight line from all the hangars, taxis etc.
    Even better than that, the base is surrounded by dachas on the southern approach, with big and unregistered human traffic, and lots of small houses that are not habituated on a daily basis, making it a perfect place to place surveillance, or hide attack means in surely existing abdoned building. From the dacha district fence, it is some 200m to the planes.
    If one wants to destroy most of the Polish transport aviation, it is enough to rent an app next to the airport and release drones that will have some 1000m to get the planes.
    Or do it from the dacha area.
    An attack will take a maximum of one minute.

    Krzesiny airbase, that will be home of F-35 and host F-16s now, is built along on an old German airfield. The biggest hangar building there, remembers WWI. First. Not second.
    A whole airbase is functionally surrounded by dacha areas, from every-fukin-direction. Some of the solid shelters are 200-300m straight line from dachas. And the airstrip in some 1000m distance.

    It is getting clear again, that the people who yap the loudest, are doing so lacking any clue or experience.

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    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E


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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:23 pm

    Give each airfield at least two TOR/M1 or 2 systems (one as a reserve), take army veterans (pensioners) who live "on site" and better up pension with 50% of the pension, but after extensive training they sit in the systems and secure the airfield (or other important possible target).

    The main thing is that there is an active TOR system.
    It's not cheap to buy, but it's extremely reliable at destroying all types of drones, even the smallest crap drones. See special operation, see Syria. It's cheap to maintain and you don't need active troops. But you have reliable local staff.
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    Post  ALAMO Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:31 pm

    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Give each airfield at least two TOR/M1 or 2 systems (one as a reserve), take army veterans (pensioners) who live "on site" and better up pension with 50% of the pension, but after extensive training they sit in the systems and secure the airfield (or other important possible target).

    The main thing is that there is an active TOR system.
    It's not cheap to buy, but it's extremely reliable at destroying all types of drones, even the smallest crap drones. See special operation, see Syria. It's cheap to maintain and you don't need active troops. But you have reliable local staff.

    And how exactly an active TOR will handle a commercial, $300 drone bought on Aliexpress with 300g of TNT and time/contact/magnetic fuze attached by a glue tape?
    That will fly over the 2m fence and fly 1m above the grass later, for a whole 200m?

    Maybe you have missed that, but every single of that bases has a wide array of AD assets covering them.
    But none of them is built/designed for the task.

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    Post  Dr.Snufflebug Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:45 pm

    Yes, these tiny FPV saboteurs are nearly invulnerable to typical AD, with the possible exception of broadband jamming. A cursory glance of Russian media reveals that the FSB catches these saboteurs literally every day now, but some will inevitably slip through.

    There is no easy solution. Some Patriot Act-ish mass surveillance and hefty rewards (more than the SBU promises) for snitches could work. Russia hosts millions of Ukrainians, some with questionable affiliations. Russia unfortunately also hosts its fair share of domestic idiots that will readily act on a text message promising a big cash reward.

    A ban on the sale and possesion of drones (not just on flying them) for civilians is a step too. A licence for commercial use exceptions probably exists already, so that could be implemented without negatively affecting legit businesses and other entities that greatly benefit from drone utilization.

    If you as much as spot a propeller in the back seat of a car, alert the authorities.

    But as I said weeks ago, there is going to be an explosion in creative anti-drone weaponry now. So the current issue will not be all that long lived. Or at least that's how it typically goes.


    Last edited by Dr.Snufflebug on Thu Aug 31, 2023 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Aug 31, 2023 7:23 pm

    Come to think of when did we last here about HIMARS, M270, Tochka being used? Has launchers been destroyed? Ammo supply destroyed or run out? With Tochka they would struggle to obtain more ammo from elsewhere. I am waiting for Ukraine to dig out Sa-2 (use as surface to surface), and FROG-7. Questions have to be asked what's going on with supplies is Ukraine feeling like the west can't supply enough and improvising?

    As for anti drone it's seems the discussion here looks like people agree on a mix of systems. 23mm for small drones, and 100mm for greater range, and shell types. Shells regardless of size will most likely be cheaper than any missile. As I mentioned earlier the Iranians seem to have looked at this issue. The Sa-er 100mm system and the Mesbah -1 (23mm 8 barrels) which they have recently mounted on trucks. These small drones the detection is key and by the time of detection they have a short window of opportunity to destroy it. So have a a system thats fully automated and fast firing with 8 barrels and add to this airburst rounds it becomes a formidable system against such drones. I have posted both systems sometime back on Iranian thread.

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    Post  Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E Thu Aug 31, 2023 9:43 pm

    ALAMO wrote:
    Mig-31BM2 Super Irbis-E wrote:Give each airfield at least two TOR/M1 or 2 systems (one as a reserve), take army veterans (pensioners) who live "on site" and better up pension with 50% of the pension, but after extensive training they sit in the systems and secure the airfield (or other important possible target).

    The main thing is that there is an active TOR system.
    It's not cheap to buy, but it's extremely reliable at destroying all types of drones, even the smallest crap drones. See special operation, see Syria. It's cheap to maintain and you don't need active troops. But you have reliable local staff.

    And how exactly an active TOR will handle a commercial, $300 drone bought on Aliexpress with 300g of TNT and time/contact/magnetic fuze attached by a glue tape?
    That will fly over the 2m fence and fly 1m above the grass later, for a whole 200m?

    Maybe you have missed that, but every single of that bases has a wide array of AD assets covering them.
    But none of them is built/designed for the task.

    Did this airfield have an active TOR system at the time of the attack? Probably no.

    Look to Syria. The IS attacks with exactly such drones, exactly the same drones! with US guidance or by ISRAEL the Russian base there! This is the exact same pattern! Masses 2019,202,2021,2022.

    Take a look and read exactly what Russian generals say about it: It is very heavy, very extensive and there is a system that blows such drones, such commercial plastic drones with warheads and explosives out of the sky: TORM2! to practically 99%.

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    Post  Backman Thu Aug 31, 2023 10:27 pm

    Maybe mothership drones ferried micro drones to the location. Then the micro drones just had to jump the fence and go in.
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    Post  mnztr Fri Sep 01, 2023 3:58 am

    I don't see why they cannot use sound detectors to detect the distinct sound of drones, and even target them using IR cams or stereo mics.
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    Post  Mir Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:14 am

    mnztr wrote:I don't see why they cannot use sound detectors to detect the distinct sound of drones, and even target them using IR cams or stereo mics.

    Not sound detectors but rather sound cancellation tactics should be able to work perfectly - together with ECM.
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    Post  ALAMO Fri Sep 01, 2023 9:55 am

    I guess this sound detection might not be a bad idea.
    In some of the cities, an existing monitoring system is already being used to localize gun shots, car crashes and other loud events.
    Adjusting the sensitivity/frequency is possible I guess.

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    Post  GarryB Fri Sep 01, 2023 3:04 pm

    Forget 70,it is a ballistic range with a descending phase.

    The 70km range rounds are GLONASS guided so you could use the multifire capability to get multiple rounds on target all at once... remember GLONASS works in three dimensions so the airspace over a target could be targeted with GLONASS guided shells to airburst in a target box around a group of drones or swarm even.

    Not complex to work out the fragmentation pattern of such a shell and calculate the required location to detonate a group of shells together to cover and airspace box with hot fragments at a given time... it is already something the air defence network is trying to do anyway.

    The big problem is that very small drones flying very low wont be spotted till they are right on their target... for such targets a shotgun is as good a weapon as any other.

    With aircraft air defences they have layers... short range, medium range, long range etc etc and it is no different with drones... but when talking about airburst shells it not only makes engagement much easier but LIDAR and other sensors means it wont matter how small the RCS or IR signature is... having the battlefield flooded with platforms with airburst ammo and ballistics computers for single shot hits or even two or three shot hits will make operating drones quite difficult... you need to be sure they are not your own of course too.

    The point is that no one system will solve all the problems because drones come in all shapes and sizes... most existing AD equipment can deal with the bigger ones like Geran etc, but the hand held models need extra work... but new mini missiles for dealing with artillery shells and artillery rockets should be good for small drones too... airburst 40mm grenades might make it more affordable where the guidance and aiming is reused on the platform it is based on.

    LIDAR and optical detection and tracking systems will be critical and jamming and even just smoke rounds can play a part.

    Something like airburst 152mm shells along with the sensors to find targets would be useful as well, but mostly against a big swarm where the heavy shell can take out large numbers of drones in a single shot... perhaps used together with EMP shells that might take out drones over a significant range... along with lasers and exotic beam weapons that might also disable the electronics in the drones... even just for a minute or two.

    Shotguns, jammers, small missiles, airburst shells, but also electronic systems to work out where they came from and who launched them and where they hold their conventions so an Iskander or Dagger can be delivered to them quickly and on time.

    It is important to use existing stuff... regarding listening for drones, well there are already sound based artillery detection systems and vehicle mounted sniper detection systems that could be adapted for use to detect drones... the engine noise of the vehicle it is mounted on could be cancelled out to make the system rather effective and might be your only warning of a last minute attack... perhaps enough to automatically launch an interceptor like ARENA, or even just shut the hatches and fire smoke.

    So old cannon shells like 23mm offer smaller size and lower costs than 57mm and 30mm so it makes it cost effective, but the larger rounds should also be produced because bigger shells with more HE and more fragments with better range will have better reach and command detonated shells can be used for all sorts of other roles too, so the effort is never wasted.

    Jammers and lasers and other things including better radars all enhances anti drone protection but also it will be effective for use against other things as well.
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    Post  JohninMK Tue Oct 24, 2023 6:32 pm

    Zlatti71
    @djuric_zlatko
    A new Russian anti-drone gun is capable of suppressing up to 90% of the AFU's drones

    Russian engineers have developed a new anti-drone gun. It has already passed official formal tests that have taken place recently.
    According to the developer’s representative, the antidrone gun operates in seven frequency ranges and is capable of suppressing and wrenching off course most of the drones used by the AFU, including commercial drones, aircraft-type drones and FPV-type ones.
    The representative has also noted that there is no antidrone gun capable of suppressing 100 per cent of objects to date, so the developer deals with a reasonable maximum of seven wave bands. Incidentally, Russian drones use the same frequency ranges. Although Chinese drones are able to operate in a wider range. A special equipment to suppress such vehicles working on shifted frequencies is being developed, but is absent yet.

    Weight: 5.5 kg;
    Suppression range: up to 1.5 km;
    Operating time: 1.5 hours.

    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 13 F9NIxCQW8AAJqw4?format=jpg&name=small

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    Post  franco Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:49 pm

    Russian developers have created a small-sized Antidrone complex that can warn of the approach of enemy drones. The new device consists of a small radar and target direction finder. It can detect aircraft the size of a pigeon at a distance of up to 10 km, determine their altitude and speed. The complex is small - it fits in the trunk of an UAZ. Some of the equipment has successfully passed tests in the SVO zone. The developers plan to supplement it with a compact electronic warfare (EW) system. Experts believe that a trench radar, together with electronic warfare systems, will be able to protect entire areas on the line of combat contact from drone attacks.

    Will even find a pigeon

    The set of equipment of the small-sized Antidron complex includes an all-round radar station and two types of detectors for detecting UAVs. The radar itself consists of four phased antenna arrays that provide all-round visibility. It allows you to find, recognize and identify drones at a range of up to 10 km, moving at speeds of up to 250 km/h, works at any time of the day and in difficult weather conditions, such as thunderstorms, hail, snow, showers, squally winds, cumulonimbus clouds , assure its developers from the Nizhny Novgorod company StriOt-Bor.

    — The station can easily detect a drone the size of a pigeon at any time of the day, its altitude and speed. For comparison, even small quadrocopters like Mavic, which are actively used by the enemy in the northwestern military zone, are usually large in size,” Yuri Tsyplenkov, chief designer of radar systems at the development company, told Izvestia.
    Ukrainian Armed Forces drone in the sky near Artemovsk

    The radar is mobile and easy to fold. The height of the radar canvas is about a meter. In a semi-disassembled state, the complex can be transported without problems in the back of a pickup truck or in the trunk of a UAZ Patriot. It will take literally a couple of minutes to get it into working condition.

    The radar is also capable of running an automated search for antenna faults in real time.

    The set of equipment of the complex also includes a “Tortik” unmanned aerial vehicle detection detector . It can detect drones and moving vehicles at a range of up to 3 km and indicate the direction where they are.

    In addition, a portable individual UAV detection detector “Sight” has been developed for fighters. It is not much larger than a TV remote control and weighs about 400 g; if necessary, it can be attached to a bulletproof vest.

    It can detect a drone at a distance of up to 3 km, which will be indicated by an audio signal. And the LCD display will immediately reflect the distance to the UAV. “Cake” and “Sight” operate in silent mode, so it is impossible to detect a fighter or position using the device. The radar, “Cake” and “Sight” can operate independently of each other.

    Combat use

    According to the developers, some of the equipment was successfully tested in the Northern Military District zone - it was sent to one of the volunteer formations. The remaining components will be tested on the line of combat contact until the end of this year.

    Information about the appearance of UAVs will help fighters hide from them, making reconnaissance, adjustment or strikes more difficult. You can also report a detected target to electronic warfare or anti-drone gun crews.

    “We are working on mini-electronic warfare that can operate in conjunction with a radar,” noted Yuri Tsyplenkov. “It will allow us to immediately begin neutralizing the UAVs and create a security dome over the positions.”

    The radar and other equipment of the complex can be used for civilian purposes. For example, to protect important facilities: airfields, oil refineries and railway junctions.

    Now the main means of combating UAVs are air defense and electronic warfare (EW) systems; drone strikers are used at the platoon or company level, military expert Alexei Leonkov told Izvestia.

    “Recently, the enemy has begun to use drones en masse,” he noted. “The radar of the new complex will help warn about an attack and take camouflage measures for our soldiers. This will ultimately help reduce losses. Of course, it must be supplemented with an electronic warfare complex. The radar will warn of an attack in time, electronic warfare will cover platoon or company strong points, armored vehicle parking areas and other important objects. Such electronic warfare, as a rule, interrupts the connection between the control station and the drone, after which it loses its target and randomly falls without causing damage.

    The trench complex will be a good response to an enemy who is massively using FPV kamikazes, he believes.

    “Now in the trenches, fighters, as a rule, use drone strikes,” he noted. “But she can land one UAV, and the rest will make their way to the target.” There are not enough drone strikers for every drone. And a trench radar with electronic warfare will effectively protect entire areas from kamikaze attacks.

    Leonkov noted that army units have powerful Pole-21 electronic warfare systems , the work of which can be complemented by Antidron.

    The Pole-21 complexes are designed to combat more serious targets. Primarily with precision missiles, bombs, missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles operating using satellite navigation.

    This complex is capable of creating an impenetrable dome of interference, suppressing equipment for linking to global satellite and radio navigation systems. It controls airspace within a radius of more than 50 km.

    The Pole-21 electronic warfare systems are already in service with the Russian army. The first reports of their arrival in units of the Central Military District appeared in 2019.

    https://iz-ru.translate.goog/1615870/bogdan-stepovoi/razmer-i-znachenie-novaia-mini-rls-predupredit-ob-atakakh-dronov?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

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    Post  thegopnik Sun Dec 31, 2023 7:42 pm

    https://www.ruselectronics.ru/news/25705-predpriyatie-roselektroniki-uspeshno-zavershilo-ispytaniya-modernizirovannogo-antibpla-kompleksa-ser/

    The Vector Research Institute of Ruselectronics Holding (part of Rostec State Corporation) has successfully completed tests of the upgraded Serp-VS5D anti-drone system at one of the Russian energy infrastructure facilities. The system combines the functions of electronic detection and counteraction to small unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) in one device. The equipment can work against both a single target and a swarm of drones.

    The new development can detect and suppress intruder UAVs. The system continuously searches for and detects communication and control channels for drones. If detected, the detector sends a command to activate suppression in the appropriate frequency bands.

    The digital processing algorithms of the detection system make it possible to confidently determine the presence of drones in the protected area, minimizing the likelihood of missing or false alarms. UAV suppression is carried out in automatic mode at a range of up to 5 km in line of sight.

    "The Serp line of anti-UAV devices is in great demand among customers both in Russia and abroad. Therefore, Vector specialists are constantly working to modernize the system, taking into account the user experience and improving the unmanned aerial vehicles themselves. The modernized Serp-VS5D complex has been successfully tested at one of the energy infrastructure facilities of our country and has fully confirmed all the declared characteristics," said Sergey Skorykh, General Director of the Vector Research Institute.

    The Serp line of anti-drone devices produced by the Vector Research Institute "sees" intruder UAVs in a 360-degree sector in the horizontal plane. The equipment is characterized by the ability to operate in sectors of 90 degrees with independent modes of operation. This makes it possible, if necessary, to use other drones during the operation of the complex, for example, to monitor power transmission lines or pipelines.

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    Post  GarryB Mon Jan 01, 2024 5:03 am

    23mm gun is effective up to around 1500m in height. It can be easily outperformed even by really cheap drones, which means your coverage must be extremely dense.

    I was thinking more of an unmanned turret with LIDAR and IRST and 360 degree IR sensor array and perhaps the MMW radar ball from the Mi-28NM modified to also look up as well as sideways with perhaps a mix of 23mm cannons and lasers and SOSNA or KORNET-EM missiles and perhaps even Bulat missiles.

    That turret could be mounted on a range of ground vehicles including Tigr or BTR-82 based platforms as well as newer Typhoon 4x4 and 6x6 vehicles and of course Boomerang 8x8 vehicles for mobility to operate with ground troops and also supply columns. The right mixture of ammo to engage both ground and air targets would be useful... a sort of anti drone dedicated Terminator design, though many of its capabilities should also be incorporated into tanks and armoured vehicles and Terminator vehicles too.

    Obviously various jammers should be included in the design too.

    With 100mm gun, you can reach 10 km height and some 20 km distance using modern ammunition. HArdly any drone flies that high those days, and it will be restricted only to some really expensive, high tier pieces.

    Anything capable of flying that high would need serious engine power which means both IR signature and radar signature so missiles would probably be more efficient to hit that sort of target anyway.

    Last but not least, 100 mm ammunition is big enough to get airburst fuze, or programmable one, or remotely detonated ... It will be very cost effective fighting drones.
    Making a tier of anti drone defense of 300 km requires three batteries. That's all.

    They have existing 100mm guns that are old AA guns and also tank guns, but I would think you would want a large calibre gun vehicle that is already in production that can already point its gun in all sorts of steep elevations and with full 360 degree traverse... like 2S35.

    Its variable propellant means you can send rounds fast or slow and get multiple rounds to arrive on target at near the same time creating a burst of fragments all around the interception box making hits almost certain.

    It is already in production and would not need a lot of modification... it is already automated to a high degree... sending it target information in real time to deliver HE fragmentation rounds to airburst around the target area would be the sort of thing a standard vehicle might already be able to achieve anyway... and when there are no drones it could use more conventional ammo to hit ground targets.

    Forget 70,it is a ballistic range with a descending phase.

    I would say the only problem of hitting drones at 70km range is actually detecting drones at that distance but that would be C4ISTARS problem.

    Connect every gun to optic fibre high speed internet, which runs through any modern city all over, and you get a maximal redundant system where every gun can be located at any random place. Same applies to data center, one just need to feed it with recon data of all sorts for further distribution. This system would be highly immune for any attempts to break the communication, extremely redundant and flexible. It is all passive, which is not of much importance fighting drones, but would be to defeat a combined attacks in a style Russkie carried. When anti radar missiles just waited for the AD radars to activate while fighting the drones to take them out ...
    I seriously expect a renaissance of barrel anti aircraft artillery, soon ...

    The sort of system that would be attached to a 2S35 battery anyway... feeding it ground surface targets could also be connected to the air defence network generating coordinates and altitudes for airburst shells to hit flying targets too. Remember GLONASS is not just coordinates on the ground but also coordinates in the air too.

    When will those stupid people learn that a HAS will never protect a plane that is standing at the flightline?

    If you spend 10 thousand dollars on steel reinforcing your door with deadlocks and padlocks and chains and even an electrified door mat... some thieves are not stupid and will just climb in a window... or go round to your back door.... or wait till you arrive home and pull a gun on you and threaten to shoot you if you don't let them in with you.

    Safe rooms are not a great idea if the thieves are so pissed off they decide to burn your entire house down... even if you survive you lose everything anyway... and who is to say the police will catch them any time soon... they might just come back another night when you are not ready.

    Give each airfield at least two TOR/M1 or 2 systems (one as a reserve), take army veterans (pensioners) who live "on site" and better up pension with 50% of the pension, but after extensive training they sit in the systems and secure the airfield (or other important possible target).

    So for the price of a few drones they are getting you to spend millions to try to top everything, but as we have seen recently... when they can no longer hit military targets they will just murder civilians... at least the Russian military have a fighting chance with body armour and helmets...


    Take a look and read exactly what Russian generals say about it: It is very heavy, very extensive and there is a system that blows such drones, such commercial plastic drones with warheads and explosives out of the sky: TORM2! to practically 99%.

    TOR is an excellent system but they don't have enough to protect everything because anything that is not protected then becomes a target.

    There is not enough money for a TOR to protect every person and every aircraft and every vehicle in Russia.

    You have to accept that they will protect as much as they can, but when you have millions of enemies wanting to hurt you they are going to succeed sometimes. When they blow up a boat or aircraft... big deal... when they kill people... not good... but no amount of spending will stop that, but the best spending is on the drones and shells and bombs and missiles that Russia is using to destroy their country and kill their military...

    I don't see why they cannot use sound detectors to detect the distinct sound of drones, and even target them using IR cams or stereo mics.

    Not all drones are noisy.

    During WWI sound detectors were widely used to determine where enemy artillery was coming from and also for early warning of aircraft attacks etc etc. Modern equivalents are fitted to new armoured vehicles to detect and determine the direction of enemy fire. Sometimes it is rather accurate and will work out the calibre and source location the fire came from.


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