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    Russian defence against drone swarms

    thegopnik
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    Post  thegopnik Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:38 pm

    Flight patterns shown the attack came from Estonia, if they have not hit Estonia back I absolutely guarantee Russian missiles won't hit NATO air bases if they start hosting Ukrainian f-16s to get resupplied to attack russia or russian troops in Ukraine. Maybe surovkin and the other dude quit because they can't deal with putins cuck warfare anymore which we have multiple proofs of.

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    Begome
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    Post  Begome Wed Aug 30, 2023 3:49 pm

    thegopnik wrote:Flight patterns shown the attack came from Estonia, if they have not hit Estonia back I absolutely guarantee Russian missiles won't hit NATO air bases if they start hosting Ukrainian f-16s to get resupplied to attack russia or russian troops in Ukraine. Maybe surovkin and the other dude quit because they can't deal with putins cuck warfare anymore which we have multiple proofs of.
    Care to enlighten us as to these "flight patterns"? The attack happened at night, so I doubt there's video showing drones crossing over from Estonia.

    Why don't you take a chill pill and wait for further info. Even traitor Rybar is saying that an attack from Ukraine is more likely.

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    Post  mnztr Wed Aug 30, 2023 4:53 pm

    Well the Estonian leader is in deep political trouble so perhaps this is a nice distraction
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:46 pm

    Begome wrote:
    thegopnik wrote:Flight patterns shown the attack came from Estonia, if they have not hit Estonia back I absolutely guarantee Russian missiles won't hit NATO air bases if they start hosting Ukrainian f-16s to get resupplied to attack russia or russian troops in Ukraine. Maybe surovkin and the other dude quit because they can't deal with putins cuck warfare anymore which we have multiple proofs of.
    Care to enlighten us as to these "flight patterns"? The attack happened at night, so I doubt there's video showing drones crossing over from Estonia.

    Why don't you take a chill pill and wait for further info. Even traitor Rybar is saying that an attack from Ukraine is more likely.

    The Twitter and Telegram information network

    They know what the Russians don't What a Face

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:48 pm

    Telegram and Twitter does help with finding things and providing intel, but unless there is evidence of where the drones flew from, rest is all hearsay.

    While it sucks to lose 4 Il-76's, these jets are still made by Russia so they will just make 4 more.
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:50 pm

    It does seem to me like a bad idea to station military aircraft at civilian airports though, I will say that.

    I know dual-use civilian-military airports and airfields are a thing in Russia; but for the duration of the conflict such schemes should be abolished everywhere in Russia within reach of NATO drones launched from Ukrainian territory. The military aircraft at such airports should be relocated to nearby purely military airbases which should be expanded if needed, and where appropriate air defences and anti-drone measures can be concentrated.

    sepheronx wrote:Telegram and Twitter does help with finding things and providing intel, but unless there is evidence of where the drones flew from, rest is all hearsay.

    While it sucks to lose 4 Il-76's, these jets are still made by Russia so they will just make 4 more.

    4 seem to have been hit but I'm not sure how many are a write-off. There was a tweet that hinted at only 2 but then again maybe I should take my own advice and wait for verified info instead of relying on Twitter.

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Aug 30, 2023 5:53 pm

    flamming_python wrote:It does seem to me like a bad idea to station military aircraft at civilian airports though, I will say that.

    I know dual-use civilian-military airports and airfields are a thing in Russia; but for the duration of the conflict such schemes should be abolished everywhere in Russia within reach of NATO drones launched from Ukrainian territory. The military aircraft at such airports should be relocated to nearby purely military airbases which should be expanded if needed, and where appropriate air defences and anti-drone measures can be concentrated.

    I think even civil airports require air defense systems due to this conflict. While in war time, they need to protect all important sites including airports. Since Pantsirs have a solid optical tracking system, it would suffice against such drones.

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    franco
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    Post  franco Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:13 pm

    flamming_python wrote:It does seem to me like a bad idea to station military aircraft at civilian airports though, I will say that.

    I know dual-use civilian-military airports and airfields are a thing in Russia; but for the duration of the conflict such schemes should be abolished everywhere in Russia within reach of NATO drones launched from Ukrainian territory. The military aircraft at such airports should be relocated to nearby purely military airbases which should be expanded if needed, and where appropriate air defences and anti-drone measures can be concentrated.

    sepheronx wrote:Telegram and Twitter does help with finding things and providing intel, but unless there is evidence of where the drones flew from, rest is all hearsay.

    While it sucks to lose 4 Il-76's, these jets are still made by Russia so they will just make 4 more.

    4 seem to have been hit but I'm not sure how many are a write-off. There was a tweet that hinted at only 2 but then again maybe I should take my own advice and wait for verified info instead of relying on Twitter.

    It's a joint base with the military being the prime flyer. Supports the 76th Airborne division stationed across town and to the south of the Airport.

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    Backman
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    Post  Backman Wed Aug 30, 2023 6:32 pm

    The fact that the US and UK are planning and providing these attacks just makes it a hard pill to swallow. Then the the usual non reaction from Russia.

    Then again , there was zero casualties. I guess IL transports are worth the same as 100 Ukrainian lives. Judging by the elation on Twitter 

    It would not be difficult for Russia to do some show attacks in response.
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    Post  mnztr Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:42 pm

    All russia has to do is say estonias int airport will be targeted at a time of their choosing and not fire a shot. The airport will have to be closed. End of story. If they don't close it blow up the runways
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    Post  flamming_python Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:43 pm

    franco wrote:It's a joint base with the military being the prime flyer. Supports the 76th Airborne division stationed across town and to the south of the Airport.

    In that case all civilian activities should be transferred elsewhere, and the same goes for other such bases too. There is no way to secure such airbases while they don't have a large restricted territory around them (the Russian term is ZATO) and have civilians coming to and from all the time. Then anti-drone measures and EW systems can be employed more freely. The lack of civilian air traffic will also clear the skies some more.

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    Post  Kiko Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:24 pm

    There's no doubt on the involvement of NATO in the Pskov drone attack:

    NATO satellites helped Ukrainian drones fly to Pskov, by Evgeny Pozdnyakov for VZGLYAD. 08.30.2023.

    During the attack of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on the airfield in Pskov, four Il-76 aircraft were damaged. The big question was the trajectory of the UAV. There is a version that the route of drones could run through the territory of Belarus. How justified is this version, how did the UAVs reach Pskov, and what should be done to minimize the consequences of such attacks in the future?

    The Armed Forces of Ukraine launched a mass attack using UAVs on several regions of Russia. So, in the Pskov region,  an airport was raided  . The governor of the region, Mikhail Vedernikov, said in his  Telegram channel  that he had personally been on the spot "since the beginning of the incident." There are no casualties reported as a result of the attack.

    Later, Vedernikov  shared  a video with the work of air defense to repel an enemy attack. As a result of the incident, a decision was  made  to cancel civilian flights on 30 August. Also, four Il-76 aircraft were damaged at the military airfield in Pskov   . The attack that took place led to the start of a fire, the fire engulfed two aircraft.

    Recall that on August 19, the enemy launched an attack on the Novgorod region. The purpose of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was also the airfield in the city of Soltsy, which housed the aircraft of the Russian Aerospace Forces. The head of the municipal district, Maxim Timofeev, noted in his Telegram channel that all the consequences of the attack were quickly and successfully eliminated.

    It is noteworthy that the Pskov and Novgorod regions are located next to each other. The distance from the nearest cities of Ukraine is about 800–900 km. Such a distance can be overcome by several types of drones. However, the night attack on August 30 divided the expert community into two camps, because it was atypical in its nature and method of execution.

    The geographical features of the area make the potential movement of the drone easier if it crosses the border with Belarus. So, corresponding member of the Academy of Military Sciences Alexander Bartosh notes that the UAV flight route through the territory of a friendly republic could well be implemented in practice.

    “Belarus has a good and fairly modern system of defense against air threats. Nevertheless, their air defense was created to combat aircraft. UAVs are a relatively new weapon. And traditional anti-aircraft systems are not so well adapted to destroy drones,” he notes.

    “Therefore, in order to effectively combat UAVs, it is necessary to adapt the air defense of Belarus to the new threat. It is necessary to develop electronic warfare systems that can disable the control and navigation systems of drones. And Russia can help the neighboring state in this,” the expert explains.

    “However, there is a route option with a starting point in one of the northern regions of Ukraine. The problem is that any of these options creates additional threats to Russia's security,” Bartosz emphasizes.

    Aitech Bizhev, Lieutenant General, ex-Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the Air Force for the Joint Air Defense System of the CIS member states, has a slightly different opinion. “Minsk is part of the unified air defense system of the CIS with a common information field. The army of Belarus is on duty at the borders around the clock, so any object that tries to fly through the territory of the republic will be shot down," the interlocutor is convinced.

    “Belarus has a very powerful and modern air defense system. The army of the republic has already destroyed drifting balloons and drones invading their airspace. In addition, similar combat situations are regularly practiced in exercises. Therefore, Ukrainian drones that try to fly through the territory of our ally will definitely be shot down,” Bizhev notes.

    Military expert Yuri Knutov agrees with this point of view. In his opinion, subject to "advance consideration of dangerous sections of the route," UAVs can maneuver on any part of the route. “The launch of a drone begins with studying a map of the area obtained thanks to the work of NATO satellites. Most often, this is necessary to understand the location of air defense and electronic warfare systems,” he said.

    “Based on these data, “gaps” are being looked for through which the path of the device may be the safest. I note that in this case, the UAV does most of the flight without going on the air. The drone connects to GPS systems only at the last stage, during the maximum approach to the target,” the expert emphasizes.

    “It is likely that such tactics were used by the Armed Forces of Ukraine in order to bypass the territory of Belarus. The technical characteristics of the drone allow it to cover distances of 800–900 km. Therefore, it would not be difficult for drones to get to Pskov from the territory of Ukraine,”, says the interlocutor. At the same time, Knutov focuses on the enemy's damage to four Il-76 aircraft. “Even in Soviet times, they tried to hide such important equipment from the eyes of the enemy. In particular, concrete shelters and caponiers were created. Smaller structures were covered with a chain-link mesh, which made it possible to reduce the risk from fragments,” the expert notes.

    “I note that any of the voiced methods of protection is many times cheaper than the direct repair or construction of a new aircraft. This was well known in the army thirty years ago. At that time, we tried to cover every model, regardless of its size. There was no talk about the “feasibility” of such efforts,” he emphasizes.

    “Unfortunately, after the collapse of the USSR, many practices of that time were revised. The shelter of aviation equipment was recognized as ineffective. By the way, the reason for such changes was the revision of relations with Western countries. Today, everything is returning to normal, and I hope that the experience of the Soviet years will be revived again," Knutov believes.

    “Sheltering heavy transport aircraft is quite difficult. This requires large hangars. Just using a camouflage net is not enough. Attack drones in this case will still be able to hit the target,” said Vladimir Popov, Honored Military Pilot of Russia, retired Major General. “In Soviet times, front-line aviation at permanently based airfields was hidden in embankment caponiers or in special reinforced concrete buildings. However, the implementation of such a practice for heavy aircraft will require a colossal amount of funds,” the interlocutor explained.

    However, the author of the Russian Engineer Telegram channel, Alexei Vasiliev, notes that the cost of building a hangar is much less than the production of new equipment. So, a concrete structure 50 by 50 meters, according to his calculations, will cost 25-35 million rubles, while the price of "a huge aircraft will be about 5-10 billion."

    “Small planes are easier to defend. They can be covered with caponiers, a chain-link mesh or a camouflage net can be pulled over them. Such a tool can even help protect against certain types of ammunition. However, it should be remembered that it is impossible to protect all means of aviation: it is necessary to prioritize correctly and think about other means of protection,” he adds.

    At the same time, Vasiliev notes that the creation of shelters is not a panacea. “Comprehensive measures are required: both air defense and electronic warfare. It is necessary to hide from enemy reconnaissance means the number and exact placement of equipment. In addition, it is important to make false shelters, ”the expert notes.

    “Transport planes near Pskov were placed next to the civil airport. Therefore, it was very difficult for them to make shelters. In addition, due to lack of space, it was difficult to disperse them, which also played into the hands of the enemy. And now we need to take into account all these nuances in the future to prevent such attacks,” Popov sums up.

    https://vz.ru/society/2023/8/30/1228152.html

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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Wed Aug 30, 2023 9:00 pm

    Begome wrote:
    Care to enlighten us as to these "flight patterns"? The attack happened at night, so I doubt there's video showing drones crossing over from Estonia.

    Why don't you take a chill pill and wait for further info. Even traitor Rybar is saying that an attack from Ukraine is more likely.

    Drones having 1000km + range can easily reach Pskov. Kiev Pskov distance is like 830km according to google. Im sure thought that flight data were planned using NATO intel. But drones form Estonia imho very unlikely.

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    Post  Hole Wed Aug 30, 2023 9:48 pm

    Martyanov:

    Many people still cannot wrap their brains around the fact that Russia's European part ALONE--the territory where 80% of Russians live and work--is almost 4 million square kilometers or 1.5+ million square miles. To give a proper comparison--it is almost the area of a whole European Union. So, make your own conclusion what it means to control such a territory (including newly added administrative subjects of 404)--even the best ISR means (and Russia DOES have best ISR means) do not guarantee detecting a group of saboteurs who can move into the launch area with hidden prepositioned or simply carried 10-12 drones and launch them at any target. Even modified 45 minutes endurance commercial drone with about 0,5 kilo of explosives attached to it gives you a range of about 40-50 kilometers. Let's recall middle school geometry: A=3.14 x 50^2 = 3.14 x 2,500= 7,853 square kilometers one must search and detect.

    If we re talking about drones with the range of 100 kilometers it gives you, consequently, the area of 31,400 square kilometers to control and search and here we are talking about equivalent of the territory of... Belgium. So, good luck opening the Theory of Search, together with the Theory of Probability, Statistics and the math and physics of modern ISR means and there you go--you may finally understand that technology alone is NOT enough, especially in the country covered with forests. One MUST have a superb human intel on the ground and the network of informants. In case of Russia we are talking about thousands upon thousands possible and highly probable Ukie saboteurs who are... drum roll--Russian citizens. Russia IS NOT going to do American Japanese "thingy" of 1940s.

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    nomadski
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    Post  nomadski Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:08 pm

    As posted earlier , some Russian military did say " ...far cheaper to build defences than planes . " And as parfar said " ..moving planes out of range is useful , " Since larger drone with fuel capacity needed , that is more easily detectable and gets snared by wires . And FP said " ..move military planes to separate Air field , with less Air traffic clutter . " But if cheaper to attack than defend , then attack hard . So the Orcs have agents inside Russia , but Russia has no agents inside Ukraine , with citizenship ! What happened to the resistance ? GarryB was against arming the public resistance , because " ...They end up killing each other ! "


    Last edited by nomadski on Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
    caveat emptor
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    Post  caveat emptor Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:08 pm

    flamming_python wrote:

    In that case all civilian activities should be transferred elsewhere, and the same goes for other such bases too. There is no way to secure such airbases while they don't have a large restricted territory around them (the Russian term is ZATO) and have civilians coming to and from all the time. Then anti-drone measures and EW systems can be employed more freely. The lack of civilian air traffic will also clear the skies some more.

    This particular airport is hard to protect, as it is literally within city limits. There are houses and industrial buildings on the other side of the airport fence. Better solution would be to move planes somewhere safer, where tampon zone can be built. You can even use Google street view to inspect parts of the airport fence at some places Also, some parts of the airport infrastructure is barely 100 meter distance from first industrial sites. Anyone could attack with FPV drones from there and disappear in five minutes.

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    Yellow is the airport fence

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    sepheronx
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    Post  sepheronx Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:11 pm

    nomadski wrote:As posted earlier , some Russian military did say " ...far cheaper to build defences than planes . " And as parfar said " ..moving planes out of range is useful , " Since larger drone with fuel capacity needed , that is more easily detectable and gets snared by wires . And FP said " ..move military planes to separate Air field , with less Air traffic clutter . " But if cheaper to attack than defend , then attack hard . So the Orcs have agents inside Russia , but Russia has no agents inside Ukraine , with citizenship ! What happened to the resistance ? GarryB was against arming the public resistance , because " ...They end up killing each other ! "

    Who do you think provides intel to Russia in Ukraine? Plenty people do, but they get murdered by Ukraine. Russia doesn't do the same thing.

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    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Aug 31, 2023 12:03 am

    The main problem with drone strikes is lack of Niobium SV radar

    Niobium and Nebo radars can track plastic FPV drones, which was proven on combat approved

    The other thing is that these drones don't fly fast

    At best they can approach in a swarm, but I think WW2 showed the solution - flak

    Some 57mm guns with high explosive fragmenting munitions would stop the approach of drones easily

    At low altitude they can be engaged , as long as the rounds are smart fused to detonate as the fire control system designates the target

    Targets are going to be hit, but you can protect At the very least critical civilian and military infrastructure

    Also I think SOSNA is better than pantsir for these targets, where you need cheap command guidance missiles and some 57mm flak to bring them down

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    Post  mnztr Thu Aug 31, 2023 12:10 am

    Arkanghelsk wrote:The main problem with drone strikes is lack of Niobium SV radar

    Niobium and Nebo radars can track plastic FPV drones,  which was proven on combat approved

    The other thing is that these drones don't fly fast

    At best they can approach in a swarm, but I think WW2 showed the solution - flak

    Some 57mm guns with high explosive fragmenting munitions would stop the approach of drones easily

    At low altitude they can be engaged , as long as the rounds are smart fused to detonate as the fire control system designates the target

    Targets are going to be hit, but you can protect At the very least critical civilian and military infrastructure

    Also I think SOSNA is better than pantsir for these targets, where you need cheap command guidance missiles and some 57mm flak to bring them down


    I don't think the answer is flak, I think the answer is another drone swarm and radar that can direct either armored drones to smash the attacking drones, or explosive drone that can shower the attacking swarm with shrapnel. Also a Grad rocket that deploys 4 subrockets with a net would take down a lot of drones.
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    Post  caveat emptor Thu Aug 31, 2023 12:25 am

    mnztr wrote:
    Also a Grad rocket that deploys 4 subrockets with a net would take down a lot of drones.

    Bro, seriously?! Very Happy

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    Post  ucmvulcan Thu Aug 31, 2023 12:53 am



    Lets talk airplanes and airports, attacks and Putin needing to resign:

    1. Its war, airports and air fields get attacked
    2. Its war, planes and helicopters get attacked
    3. Hopefully someone at the Frunze Embankment gets it that Ukraine does these attacks because planes blowing up makes the 10 o'clock news and realizes that concrete protected hangars will all but end these gnat bite raids.
    4. 2 to 4 planes. What changes? Ukraine has lost as many as 400,000 dead, maybe three times as many wounded so 1.2 million. Russia? Well go by BBC, their social media report of 25,000 was good journalism and probably reflects reality. So Russian dead is 30,000 and wounded is 90,000. Ultimately, flea bite raids will be given mega coverage by the corporate state controlled press, but when you see just what a complete and utter failure their glorious offensive that they claimed would put them in Marioupol a month ago and was armed with all of NATO's game changing wonderwaffles, really what changes?
    5. Putin should resign? Really? That is what the west wants. Who do you have in mind to replace him? Putin has made mistakes. So did Lincoln. However, like Lincoln, Putin learned from those painful lessons.

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    Post  flamming_python Thu Aug 31, 2023 12:55 am

    Directed blast 57mm shells, cheap command-guided missiles launched by systems such as the Sosna-R would be good for the task. And these are perfectly economical systems; one shell/missile per drone. It's just a matter of getting them to the troops and have personnel trained up on them.

    Flak is basically just shrapnel; so larger shells in that case - but those are long out of production and the guns for them. Otherwise it would be a sound idea

    EW systems of course; by far the best method. But there are no guarantees with it like a hard-kill system can provide. So it should always be backed by a kinetic weapon.

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    Post  TMA1 Thu Aug 31, 2023 1:51 am

    Okay hear me out with a stereotypical non expert concept which is probably ridiculous.

    This might be expensive, but what about stations with infrared vision and laser range finders that have extremely fast moving heads. I'm talking spinning and oscillating sensor heads that spin and move up and down simultaneously at about 20/30 rotations and up/down oscillations a second. This all connected to some serious computing hardware with complex neural network programs that can automatically detect targets.

    Now imagine these stations feeding into derivation 57mm type anti air auto cannons that have increased turret speed and auto tracking speed. I think this very very simple and highly cost efficient system could work and be built in the hundreds within a few months. Razz

    Seriously though I'm thinking of something along the lines of the dircm turret on the su-57 connected to a sped up 57mm turret.

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    Post  d_taddei2 Thu Aug 31, 2023 2:17 am

    flamming_python wrote:.

    Flak is basically just shrapnel; so larger shells in that case - but those are long out of production and the guns for them. Otherwise it would be a sound idea

    I would imagine large flak shells 85mm, 100mm, and maybe 130mm will still be floating around in storage as will be the equipment to make such. Quite a few countries still use these large flak guns, and North Korea and Iran still make the ammo for 85mm and 100mm. In fact the Iranians went one step further and upgraded their KS-19 100mm guns Into what they call Sa-ir it's fully automated, fire control system and self loading with 5 rounds available. These shells have proximity fuses as well and am sure they could be upgraded to be guided, or EMP type shells, but having a battery of these could cover the sky fairly fast with loads of shrapnel more than enough to deal with drones. KS-19 has a range of 12,700 m, timed fuse and 15,000 m for proximity fuse.a velocity of 900-1000m/s, and apparently they rounds are interchangeable with 100mm tank rounds so with the number of T-12 guns and T-55 around the world I would imagine it be simple to start production on these rounds.

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    Arkanghelsk
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    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 12 Empty Re: Russian defence against drone swarms

    Post  Arkanghelsk Thu Aug 31, 2023 3:08 am

    Tbh even ZSU-23-4 would be adequate

    It's not like Ukraine has swarms of these drones flying at airports and other critical areas

    But the FCS of these systems must be upgraded,

    I would think even 2K22 Tunguska

    But you need these systems at these areas and able to be networked with Niobium or Nebo, and then a command post to control SPAAG fire when a drone swarm is detected

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