Russian military orders 10 of the new Forpost-R UAV systems (3 UAV's each) with plans for an additional 18. There are approximately 30 systems with 90 UAV's of the old Israeli design presently in use.
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UAVs in Russian Armed Forces: News #2
franco- Posts : 7072
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https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2020/02/05/822344-voennie-bespilotniki
Russian military orders 10 of the new Forpost-R UAV systems (3 UAV's each) with plans for an additional 18. There are approximately 30 systems with 90 UAV's of the old Israeli design presently in use.
Russian military orders 10 of the new Forpost-R UAV systems (3 UAV's each) with plans for an additional 18. There are approximately 30 systems with 90 UAV's of the old Israeli design presently in use.
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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Altair was also ordered
George1- Posts : 18540
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franco wrote:https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2020/02/05/822344-voennie-bespilotniki
Russian military orders 10 of the new Forpost-R UAV systems (3 UAV's each) with plans for an additional 18. There are approximately 30 systems with 90 UAV's of the old Israeli design presently in use.
so each system operates under 3 UAVs?
PapaDragon- Posts : 13523
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George1 wrote:franco wrote:https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2020/02/05/822344-voennie-bespilotniki
Russian military orders 10 of the new Forpost-R UAV systems (3 UAV's each) with plans for an additional 18. There are approximately 30 systems with 90 UAV's of the old Israeli design presently in use.
so each system operates under 3 UAVs?
So that would be 30 drones with plans for additional 54
This makes more sense, boy do I love Russian military speak...
franco- Posts : 7072
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George1 wrote:franco wrote:https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2020/02/05/822344-voennie-bespilotniki
Russian military orders 10 of the new Forpost-R UAV systems (3 UAV's each) with plans for an additional 18. There are approximately 30 systems with 90 UAV's of the old Israeli design presently in use.
so each system operates under 3 UAVs?
Yes and the smaller systems like the orion-10 has 4 UAV's per system.
George1- Posts : 18540
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Interview with the chief designer of the Orion unmanned aerial vehicle
The Rossiyskaya Gazeta, under the heading "Inhuman War. Combat drones play an increasingly aggressive role in local wars," published an interview with Nikolai Nikolayevich Dolzhenkov, general manager of Kronstadt JSC, one of the leading Russian developers of unmanned aerial systems, chief designer of Russia's first unmanned aerial vehicle apparatus of long duration flight "Orion".
Military conflicts in the Middle East have actually opened a new type of combat aircraft, and unmanned. For the first time, heavy drones began to be massively used as impact force. Drones destroy not individual terrorists, but entire military units.
Will we be able, if necessary, to oppose something to foreign combat drones? Kronstadt General Designer Nikolai Dolzhenkov, one of the most competent specialists in the field of designing unmanned aerial vehicles, answers questions from the Rossiyskaya Gazeta.
- Nikolai Nikolaevich, back in the early 1980s you are a very young designer of the Design Bureau named after Yakovlev, played a key role in creating the reconnaissance drone "Bee". For his time, he was one of the best in the world. It was used during counter-terrorist operations in the North Caucasus in the 1990s. And then some kind of failure came. As a result, we were forced to purchase reconnaissance drones in Israel, hastily adapting them to the requirements of the Russian army. Why did this happen?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: Unfortunately, I only have to state that at that time our country was not quite ready for unmanned calls. I will not speak in detail about why such a situation has developed - there are too many objective and subjective reasons. And yet, when there was not enough money for anything, in my opinion, the priorities were set incorrectly.
If we concentrated our finances, which were required not so much, on the creation of drones, now we would have a line of devices that solved the widest range of tasks on the battlefield and in civilian life.
In military aviation - the most expensive and valuable is not a plane or a helicopter, but a pilot. Even the most complex fighter can be assembled in a few months, and it takes years and considerable material and technical resources to prepare a cool pilot. The results of the combat use of shock drones, which we see in Syria, are comparable to the results obtained by manned aircraft. With a significant difference - there will be no loss among pilots. Currently, our Ministry of Defense has begun to pay significant attention to drones. In a very short time, we made a real breakthrough.
- What is the place of Russia in the development and production of drones among the leading countries of the world?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: Today we have some lag, but it is not catastrophic yet. In terms of design ideas and the technical level of the devices we are creating, we are almost not inferior to the leading countries. And we are in absolutely competitive condition with China.
I must say that our main competitor in the market, if we talk about export sales in the future, will not be Americans or Europeans, but China. The nomenclature of the Chinese drones and especially the pace of their development significantly exceed what is being done in other countries. And this must be taken into account.
I’m talking about unmanned aerial vehicles, whose mass is more than a ton. They will play a key role in the military and civilian sectors. If we do not respond to the Chinese challenge, then we will have to buy Chinese complexes, which we would not want to.
- Your UAV Orion was a surprise at the MAKS-2017 air show. At the military-technical forum "Army-2019" they also talked a lot about it. How did this device appear and what is it capable of?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: The military announced a competition for the creation of a multifunctional unmanned aerial vehicle of medium range weighing about a ton. Almost all leading aircraft manufacturers participated in it. We won. A team of fairly young but very professional specialists from various fields participated in the creation of the apparatus. Technical parameters and characteristics of "Orion" can be found in open publications. Let me remind you the main ones.
Wingspan - 16 meters, aircraft length - 8 meters, take-off mass - 1000 kg, maximum payload mass - 200 kg, continuous flight duration - at least 24 hours, can rise to a height of 7500 meters.
Our drone is primarily designed for reconnaissance flights, it can work as a repeater.
- You are the chief designer of Orion, not so much out of office, as in fact. This is really your car. What are you most proud of?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: UAVs have always been positioned as dual-use products, so they had a number of serious export restrictions on the supply of high-tech components from Western countries to ours. And although we started to work when there was no talk of sanctions, we made a bet only on domestic components. And taking into account the fact that drones of such a level as Orion have never been produced in our country, we had to do more than ninety percent of all the component equipment ourselves and from scratch. Done.
We initially decided - our drone will be almost completely compositional. In cooperation with leading scientific centers of the country, it was possible to develop the latest technology for the production of carbon fiber plastic based on vacuum infusion. And today, our technology is used by aircraft builders, who are faced with sanctions.
We have developed a rather original propeller - a two-blade propeller, also made of composite materials. It has a variable step, which was not previously in this dimension. And also our device is equipped with a unique anti-icing system, which makes it possible to use Orion in the northern latitudes.
Another of our achievements is that we were the first in the country to make an all-electric aircraft of this dimension. The Orion has neither hydraulics nor pneumatics, with the exception of air in the chassis tires. All drives are electric. Domestic aircraft industry is only going to this.
For the first time we used elements of artificial intelligence. The unmanned complex is built in such a way that in the event of any failure or loss of communication with the operator or some other emergency situation, the device is able to return to the base and land. We managed to realize fully automatic taxiing, take-off, landing and even taxiing the vangar. Without human intervention. It should be understood here that when I say “we”, I mean our entire wide network of co-developers, to whom Kronstadt JSC ordered these components.
- What is more difficult to do - unmanned or manned aircraft?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: Our unmanned aerial vehicle is completely identical in airborne complex to a manned aircraft. With the difference that everything had to be done anew in a much more miniaturized form. And this is a difficult task. We could not, for example, simply take some components used in fighters and place them on a drone. The mass and dimensions of aircraft are incommensurable.
I began my professional career at OKB named after A.S. Yakovleva, was the Chief Designer of the Yak-130. I can say that creating a good and efficient drone is even more difficult in some ways than a manned aircraft. It is due to incomparable dimension. Let me remind you, we are talking about devices weighing more than a ton.
- When will Orion appear in the troops?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: We have almost completed the first stage of state testing. What does it give? A ticket to mass production. And this is the most important thing. Now it is already possible to talk about ordering, the deployment of mass production and the arrival of the first parties in the troops. The sooner this happens, the better. Decide to the customer.
It should be borne in mind that the military is accumulating more and more practical experience in operating unmanned systems of this class.
Now there is experience using the Outpost UAV. Its mass is 450 kg. In addition, this is a Russian adaptation of the Israeli drone Searcher. And the first Searcher was shown back in 1990, that is, the military uses the development of the eighties of the last century. Our Orion is a fully Russian apparatus created in the 21st century. Forpost and Orion have completely different opportunities, incomparable development potentials.
- Turkey caused serious damage to the Syrian army using strike drones. We also have a lot, sometimes very optimistic and even pathos, about creating our own drone drone. When will they finally appear?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: The fact that they are still missing is the result of a general underestimation of the role of unmanned aircraft in modern and promising wars. Now the situation has changed dramatically.
One of the problems is the lack of weapons, which can be used with domestic drones. We can’t take any of the existing guided missiles and hang them on an unmanned aerial vehicle - it simply can’t stand the launch and will fall apart in the air. However, at present, missile weapons designed for use with drones such a mass as Orion have practically been created.
For our part, we have already created both a suspension system and a combat control system. There will be weapons - there will be shock machines. I am sure this will happen in the foreseeable future.
- The media reported that Turkey for the first time in world military practice used a swarm of drones in Syria. What is it and why is it necessary?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: Indeed, in the Idlib region in the sky at the same time there were many shock drones. It was a massive blow, but not a swarm, as each device was controlled individually.
What is a real battle swarm? Imagine - in the sky there are several dozen drones weighing several tons, which carry missiles and bombs of great destructive force. And these machines maneuver at the same time, like a flock of birds, without colliding with each other and without blocking each other's sectors of fire. They represent the first echelon of aviation, taking on the air defense strike, saving manned aircraft and the lives of pilots with whom they interact and are corrected. Swarm management can be carried out using artificial intelligence. A solution to this problem is now very active in the United States and China.
I can say on an initiative basis and we are trying to create algorithms for controlling a swarm of heavy drones. This will be a non-model of neural networks in which drones constantly interact with each other, transmit missions in case of damage, change leader roles and ultimately reach the goal that needs to be destroyed, and also interact with manned aircraft.
- What are the prospects for using medium and heavy drones in the civilian sector of the economy?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: They are inexhaustible, especially for our country. And we are working in this direction with the active support of the Ministry of Industry and Trade. An application has been submitted for certification of the type of civil version of Orion.
There are many tasks to be solved - technical and legal. It is necessary that for those who control air traffic, there is no difference with what or with whom they communicate - with the crew of the manned aircraft or with the operator of the drone. This is a very difficult problem, but we solve it. In the future, large drones will become as full participants in air traffic as manned aircraft.
- Where is it supposed to use heavy drones in the first place?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: This is primarily the monitoring of large areas. Drones can be in the air for a day or more. Inspecting the vast expanses of forests with sensitive equipment, they are able to instantly detect a source of ignition that can be put out with minimal effort, preventing it from escalating into a real fire storm.
Another area is monitoring the Northern Sea Route and, in general, the Arctic territories. This is an urgent task related to laying the way for ships, and with assessing situations in various water areas, and with weather forecasts, and with the environment, and with solving other problems. Today, such observation is carried out by satellites - this is not always convenient. The quality of their work depends on the weather. In the North, it is rarely clear. But drones can become a kind of quasi-satellites that can monitor constantly and in any weather.
Heavy drones are able to effectively solve transport problems in remote areas, which are enough in the Urals. Moreover, without human intervention, in automatic mode. We have projects of large drones with vertical take-off and landing. Moreover, our control technologies make it possible to make any transport aircraft unmanned - from the small An-2 to the giant An-225. Such machines can fly to a certain point and drop loads by parachute or unload at airfields.
- How do you see this is purely organizationally?
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: I think there will be a certain structure that owns a fleet of various drones and is capable of servicing them technically. And already interested departments or private structures on a contractual basis will be able to order monitoring or transport services to carry out their tasks.
“We are witnessing the appearance of a new air fleet with artificial intelligence, in which human participation is minimized.”
Nikolai Dolzhenkov: Most likely, this is true. So far this question is rather philosophical. But it may happen that he will soon, already in the current decade, move into the practical plane.
Today, we have few heavy unmanned aerial vehicles. But the gap in absolute units is not so terrible. The main thing is to keep up with the pace of implementation of design ideas. If we don’t lag behind, then in case of urgent need we will realize any project in scale and complexity as soon as possible.
Business card
Nikolai Dolzhenkov was born on November 9, 1956 in the city of Berezniki, Perm Territory. In 1980, he graduated with honors from the Moscow Aviation Institute. He began his career at OKB. A.S. Yakovleva, where he worked from 1980 to 2009. He has gone from a design engineer to the first deputy general director of OKB. the above bureau. As the chief designer, he directed the creation of the Yak-130 combat trainer, the first aircraft designed in the Russian Federation from design to serial production after the collapse of the USSR. Since 2011 - General Director and General Designer of the unmanned direction of the company "Kronstadt". Honored Designer of the Russian Federation, Doctor of Technical Sciences, author of more than 80 scientific papers and 25 inventions.
https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3962325.html
miketheterrible- Posts : 7383
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thanks for the interview.
I cannot wait to see Orion in full combat use by Russian forces.
I am wondering how long though it will take? I heard it was used in Syria for testing but dunno accuracy of report.
I cannot wait to see Orion in full combat use by Russian forces.
I am wondering how long though it will take? I heard it was used in Syria for testing but dunno accuracy of report.
Isos- Posts : 11617
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If one thing can be learned by the turkish op with drones in Syria is that such expensive drones like Anka or Orion should not be used to provide close support because they are expensive and don't carry enough weapons but are very easy targets. This way you lose the "close support" pretty fast and your troops end up alone on the front.
However arming forpost-R is a good idea because they are much more affordable than orion or altius. They can have many of them that will provide reccon and also bomb opportunity targets while su-25 hit major ones like air defences or tank groups.
They should also include data link btw su-25 and their tactical drones to allow a video stream so that the su-25 pilot see what the drone see on the front. The two seat variant would benefit the more from that.
However arming forpost-R is a good idea because they are much more affordable than orion or altius. They can have many of them that will provide reccon and also bomb opportunity targets while su-25 hit major ones like air defences or tank groups.
They should also include data link btw su-25 and their tactical drones to allow a video stream so that the su-25 pilot see what the drone see on the front. The two seat variant would benefit the more from that.
Hole- Posts : 11159
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For such operations Russia will use Korsar and Katran drones. Small (hard to find), can be started by catapult (Korsar) or are VTOL (Katran) and can carry some ATGM´s.
Isos- Posts : 11617
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Hole wrote:For such operations Russia will use Korsar and Katran drones. Small (hard to find), can be started by catapult (Korsar) or are VTOL (Katran) and can carry some ATGM´s.
Any source ?
Korsar doesn't seem to be armed.
Btw I just learned about the dozir 600. Any news about this project ? It was supposed to fly in 2010-2015 but it looks like they stopped the project. It was smaller heavy drone.
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I would think it would make most sense to arm the big heavy drones but have them operate at higher and safer altitudes with smaller drones flying lower looking for targets and attracting ground fire for the higher flying drones to monitor and then target.
The high flying heavy drones could carry small suicide attack drones it can release for a closer look and direct attack, but much of the time I would think a ball turret with optics and sensors to guide their command guided missiles like Shturm and Ataka would be ideal as a high altitude launch would give them excellent performance against pretty much any target no matter what camouflage... they could even be used against moving targets.
A few FAB-5/10/15/20 bombs for smaller UAVs to dive down into target areas to deliver or add to their own internal suicide drone bomber payload to spread the shrapnel over a greater area for groups of terrorists...
Seems to me they are developing a whole range of air to ground weapons for drones to use... I would suspect a turret on the heavy drone... perhaps even a gunpod setup with an aim able grenade launcher like the new 40mm Balkan would be a useful way to send a nicely spread burst of fragments at surprise targets...
The high flying heavy drones could carry small suicide attack drones it can release for a closer look and direct attack, but much of the time I would think a ball turret with optics and sensors to guide their command guided missiles like Shturm and Ataka would be ideal as a high altitude launch would give them excellent performance against pretty much any target no matter what camouflage... they could even be used against moving targets.
A few FAB-5/10/15/20 bombs for smaller UAVs to dive down into target areas to deliver or add to their own internal suicide drone bomber payload to spread the shrapnel over a greater area for groups of terrorists...
Seems to me they are developing a whole range of air to ground weapons for drones to use... I would suspect a turret on the heavy drone... perhaps even a gunpod setup with an aim able grenade launcher like the new 40mm Balkan would be a useful way to send a nicely spread burst of fragments at surprise targets...
Isos- Posts : 11617
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I like their idea of arming their big drones with stand off weapons.
What I was against is putting some atgm like the hellfire on MQ-9 or those turkish 9km missiles on their Anka-S. Most of the time they don't use them at max range so they would come in range of short range AD.
What I was against is putting some atgm like the hellfire on MQ-9 or those turkish 9km missiles on their Anka-S. Most of the time they don't use them at max range so they would come in range of short range AD.
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Isos wrote:I like their idea of arming their big drones with stand off weapons.
What I was against is putting some atgm like the hellfire on MQ-9 or those turkish 9km missiles on their Anka-S. Most of the time they don't use them at max range so they would come in range of short range AD.
Why not? Russia has several good antitank missiles to be used by attack helicopters or by su25, like the 9M123 Khrizantema or the 9K121 Vikhr. They could be easily used also from drones.
Isos- Posts : 11617
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Why not? Russia has several good antitank missiles to be used by attack helicopters or by su25, like the 9M123 Khrizantema or the 9K121 Vikhr. They could be easily used also from drones.
Their short range put the drone in engagement zone of AD.
They should be used only by smaller and cheaper drones.
Ddrones like Orion should have only missiles with longer ranges. New hermes or the missile derived from their glide bomb based on kh-38 they intend to use.
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2668
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of course, i just meant these 2 since hermes is a heavier missile (around 130kg) and cannot be used in the smaller dronesIsos wrote:Why not? Russia has several good antitank missiles to be used by attack helicopters or by su25, like the 9M123 Khrizantema or the 9K121 Vikhr. They could be easily used also from drones.
Their short range put the drone in engagement zone of AD.
They should be used only by smaller and cheaper drones.
Ddrones like Orion should have only missiles with longer ranges. New hermes or the missile derived from their glide bomb based on kh-38 they intend to use.
GarryB- Posts : 40685
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But the real issue here is cost and weight and availability too.
A Shturm missile with a 5kg HE payload is fine for obliterating a vehicle or the room of a building or a group of enemy soldiers... a mortar or its ammo stacked nearby... a machine gun... or a suspected observation or sniping position...
It might sound funny but the question of range is not really an issue... fired at low altitude in forward flight a Shturm from a helicopter has a range of about 6km to target... so at launch the target is 6km away and as the missile flys and the attack helo approaches the target the distance at impact might be 5km or so.
From a stationary ground vehicle like the Shturm system mounted on the MTLB has a range of 5km to the target... and in both cases there are no wires to catch or snag or break so the missile moves at supersonic speeds so you wont hear it coming.
From a small drone operating at 4-5km altitude a target 7-8km away should be hittable, while targets much closer should also be possible, while a small light drone 4-5km up is going to be a very tricky target for IR guided missiles.
More to the point while a missile like Ataka or Shturm at about 40-45kgs are actually quite heavy for a small light drone... twin missiles under each wing means up to 180kgs for four shots, but being command guided missiles they are a fraction of the cost of something like Hellfire or even Javelin...
Having them on medium sized drones at 10km altitude... with no strings attached, and improved optics and guidance systems you could probably massively extend engagement range and improve accuracy... remember these missiles are command guided so lasing the target and with GLONASS positioning at launch the location of the missile and target are known so a lofted trajectory can be calculated and the missile directed to dive attack the target at max speed and with very little warning...
And again... did I say these missiles are cheap?
The new SOSNA or Pine missiles are a similar size to the Shturm and Ataka missiles but are two stage very high speed 10km range missiles with precision command guidance using laser beam riding technology... the laser beam being controlled and allowing the flight profile to be controlled too... often with ground based weapon launches at very low flying targets or targets on the ground the laser is directed higher than the target so the missile flys above the line of sight to avoid hitting trees or wires or fences etc... the point is that the laser does not need to point anywhere near the target until later in the engagement... so the beam would start horizontal during missile launch and then when the solid rocket booster burns out it will be captured in the laser beam which can then be slewed down onto the target for engagement...
Personally I would go for Shturm and Ataka missiles at 10km altitude in larger drones, while smaller drones I would load with 7 shot rocket launchers with unguided rockets with guided rockets loaded as well as smoke rockets for target marking and perhaps illumination rockets and other types.
I realise low flying drones are vulnerable... but having them keeps the enemy air defences busy and occupied and if they shoot a few down... who cares.
Make them cheap and make them expendable and put the Ebola virus in them...
A Shturm missile with a 5kg HE payload is fine for obliterating a vehicle or the room of a building or a group of enemy soldiers... a mortar or its ammo stacked nearby... a machine gun... or a suspected observation or sniping position...
It might sound funny but the question of range is not really an issue... fired at low altitude in forward flight a Shturm from a helicopter has a range of about 6km to target... so at launch the target is 6km away and as the missile flys and the attack helo approaches the target the distance at impact might be 5km or so.
From a stationary ground vehicle like the Shturm system mounted on the MTLB has a range of 5km to the target... and in both cases there are no wires to catch or snag or break so the missile moves at supersonic speeds so you wont hear it coming.
From a small drone operating at 4-5km altitude a target 7-8km away should be hittable, while targets much closer should also be possible, while a small light drone 4-5km up is going to be a very tricky target for IR guided missiles.
More to the point while a missile like Ataka or Shturm at about 40-45kgs are actually quite heavy for a small light drone... twin missiles under each wing means up to 180kgs for four shots, but being command guided missiles they are a fraction of the cost of something like Hellfire or even Javelin...
Having them on medium sized drones at 10km altitude... with no strings attached, and improved optics and guidance systems you could probably massively extend engagement range and improve accuracy... remember these missiles are command guided so lasing the target and with GLONASS positioning at launch the location of the missile and target are known so a lofted trajectory can be calculated and the missile directed to dive attack the target at max speed and with very little warning...
And again... did I say these missiles are cheap?
The new SOSNA or Pine missiles are a similar size to the Shturm and Ataka missiles but are two stage very high speed 10km range missiles with precision command guidance using laser beam riding technology... the laser beam being controlled and allowing the flight profile to be controlled too... often with ground based weapon launches at very low flying targets or targets on the ground the laser is directed higher than the target so the missile flys above the line of sight to avoid hitting trees or wires or fences etc... the point is that the laser does not need to point anywhere near the target until later in the engagement... so the beam would start horizontal during missile launch and then when the solid rocket booster burns out it will be captured in the laser beam which can then be slewed down onto the target for engagement...
Personally I would go for Shturm and Ataka missiles at 10km altitude in larger drones, while smaller drones I would load with 7 shot rocket launchers with unguided rockets with guided rockets loaded as well as smoke rockets for target marking and perhaps illumination rockets and other types.
I realise low flying drones are vulnerable... but having them keeps the enemy air defences busy and occupied and if they shoot a few down... who cares.
Make them cheap and make them expendable and put the Ebola virus in them...
Isos- Posts : 11617
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An heliopter can stay stationary when launching it atgm. A drone won't and even if you launch it at mx range you will go toward the enemy which if he has air defences will destroy your drone. MALE drone cost around 5 million $. That's not something you can throw away after the first use. Smaller drones like the kirsar are better options.
Drones are not weapon carriers. 4 missiles is more than good, 2 is acceptable.
Drones are not weapon carriers. 4 missiles is more than good, 2 is acceptable.
medo- Posts : 4343
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Turkey drone strikes prove, that armed drones are very effective if oponent doesn't have proper air defense. When air defense is present, they are shot down very quickly. LNA shot down in a time of an hour 6 turkish drones. SAA also shot down many turkish drones, when Buk-M2 and Pantsirs come to the theatre. There are some estimates, that SAA shot down around 40 turkish drones in the first week of March. In the beginning Turkey well use Sochi agreement for drone strikes, as this agreement allow Turkish drones to monitor tampon area around observation points and at the beginning no one shot at turkish drones. Armed drones are effective only against enemy, who doesn't have air defense. For all the rest, forget it. It is better to use smaller recce drones and kamikaze drones, than big, expensive armed drones.
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medo wrote:Turkey drone strikes prove, that armed drones are very effective if oponent doesn't have proper air defense. When air defense is present, they are shot down very quickly. LNA shot down in a time of an hour 6 turkish drones. SAA also shot down many turkish drones, when Buk-M2 and Pantsirs come to the theatre. There are some estimates, that SAA shot down around 40 turkish drones in the first week of March. In the beginning Turkey well use Sochi agreement for drone strikes, as this agreement allow Turkish drones to monitor tampon area around observation points and at the beginning no one shot at turkish drones. Armed drones are effective only against enemy, who doesn't have air defense. For all the rest, forget it. It is better to use smaller recce drones and kamikaze drones, than big, expensive armed drones.
But then you adapt tactics. If the enemy has air defences in the area you send a su-25 armed with kh-25P and kh-58 anti radar missiles to destroy them. Then the drones can keep doing recco and limited strikes.
flamming_python- Posts : 9637
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Isos wrote:An heliopter can stay stationary when launching it atgm. A drone won't and even if you launch it at mx range you will go toward the enemy which if he has air defences will destroy your drone. MALE drone cost around 5 million $. That's not something you can throw away after the first use. Smaller drones like the kirsar are better options.
Drones are not weapon carriers. 4 missiles is more than good, 2 is acceptable.
More than that; a Mi-28NM with the mast mounted radar can pop-up from behind cover, launch a missile and then go back down if its a fire & forget type. If its not, then it raise its altitude so only the radar at the top is in line-of-sight.
A helicopter can quickly lose altitude and/or move behind cover, to avoid radar guidance and anti-air measures.
GarryB- Posts : 40685
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An heliopter can stay stationary when launching it atgm
It can, but is that a good idea?
A hovering helicopter might have a tree or a building or hill it is hiding behind but in war time the enemy could be anywhere... while you are watching forward and launching your missile from behind cover another enemy unit close by might be lining you up with an RPG or HMG... hiding behind cover only makes sense if the cover is 360 degree cover which is not common anywhere...
Somewhere like Syria rather than hiding behind a building or a tree it makes more sense to hide behind 5,000m of air by climbing to 5km altitude... it not only protects you from all small arms fire... it also gives you an excellent view of the general battlefield.
A drone won't and even if you launch it at mx range you will go toward the enemy which if he has air defences will destroy your drone.
At between 5km and 10km altitude air defences that can shoot you down are limited... the Russians found in the conflict in Georgia that MANPADS often have problems with small electric drones at 4km plus altitudes... 23mm cannon don't reach properly either.... they ended up having to launch BUK missiles because their SA-9 and SA-13 missiles couldn't lock such insignificant IR signature platforms... in the end they used MiG-29s with R-73 missiles to shoot down their drones.
Obviously OSA missiles would still be over kill but cheaper than BUK though they would need to be used in optical mode but Tunguska would have been the cheapest option, but AFAIK they didn't have any there.
Drones were a real pain in the ass and still are for most defenses.
In fact a drone with a gun pod using a 40mm grenade launcher with airburst grenades could be an ideal drone killer drone...
MALE drone cost around 5 million $. That's not something you can throw away after the first use. Smaller drones like the kirsar are better options.
The heavy expensive drones will be operating from 10K altitude... and carrying a bundle of ATGMs means it can destroy anything it spots almost immediately without needing to wait for air support or artillery support.
Smaller drones, including suicide drones can be used at lower altitudes for specific uses like defeating enemy air defence... like a 23mm gun mount that is causing you problems... a suicide drone will solve that problem...
Drones are not weapon carriers. 4 missiles is more than good, 2 is acceptable.
I agree... most of the time watching is very useful, but as the Americans found quite often they would spot an enemy but by the time an airstrike or artillery can be arranged the target is no longer reachable... having some ready to fire weapons on heavy drones that can kill vehicles or small groups of enemy can mean the difference between getting a kill and watching a group of enemy escape.
They don't need to be 45kg Ataka missiles... these new small calibre Bulat missiles look rather small... with a HE warhead should be accurate and potent with laser beam riding guidance should be accurate with no strings attached.
Armed drones are effective only against enemy, who doesn't have air defense. For all the rest, forget it. It is better to use smaller recce drones and kamikaze drones, than big, expensive armed drones.
While I don't disagree, you do need to clarify that air defences including Russian modern systems are difficult for any platforms... manned or unmanned.
Against western air defences it is not so clear that armed or unarmed drones are ineffective... the US uses drones around the world and sometimes they work fine and other times they get shot down.
Part of wearing down an air defence will include using drones including suicide drones to attack elements of the air defence to degrade and then defeat it.
But then you adapt tactics. If the enemy has air defences in the area you send a su-25 armed with kh-25P and kh-58 anti radar missiles to destroy them. Then the drones can keep doing recco and limited strikes.
Or develop super cheap drones and send hundreds of them to deplete their air defence missiles... then attach artillery shells to the drones and start using them as suicide drones and target air defences...
More than that; a Mi-28NM with the mast mounted radar can pop-up from behind cover, launch a missile and then go back down if its a fire & forget type. If its not, then it raise its altitude so only the radar at the top is in line-of-sight.
A helicopter can quickly lose altitude and/or move behind cover, to avoid radar guidance and anti-air measures.
That is the theory, but with very long range stand off missiles like Hermes and this new 25+km range missile then simply scanning for targets from 15-20km away and firing from there too means you might not need to hide behind anything.
Austin- Posts : 7617
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Location : India
Mig currently working on Three Class of UAV and PAK-DP program
https://www.defenceiq.com/air-forces-military-aircraft/articles/what-does-the-mig-35-bring-to-air-combat-interview-with-anastasia-kravchenko
Regarding unmanned platforms, our corporation is developing reconnaissance and combat unmanned aerial vehicles, ranging in weight in three classes from 1-5, 5-10 and 10-15 tons. Test models should be completed in the near future. Different types of vehicles will fit the task at hand. Engines for all the UAVs are being developed in Russia.
The successor or alternative to the MiG-31 is called the PAK-DP and may also serve as a basis for UAVs or be optionally unmanned. As Tarasenko said, this plane will defend the vast borders of our Motherland. It will be a brand new plane that will use brand new technologies, including operations in arctic conditions. Soon there will be more on the design-layout, so just wait and you’ll be surprised!
https://www.defenceiq.com/air-forces-military-aircraft/articles/what-does-the-mig-35-bring-to-air-combat-interview-with-anastasia-kravchenko
Regarding unmanned platforms, our corporation is developing reconnaissance and combat unmanned aerial vehicles, ranging in weight in three classes from 1-5, 5-10 and 10-15 tons. Test models should be completed in the near future. Different types of vehicles will fit the task at hand. Engines for all the UAVs are being developed in Russia.
The successor or alternative to the MiG-31 is called the PAK-DP and may also serve as a basis for UAVs or be optionally unmanned. As Tarasenko said, this plane will defend the vast borders of our Motherland. It will be a brand new plane that will use brand new technologies, including operations in arctic conditions. Soon there will be more on the design-layout, so just wait and you’ll be surprised!
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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ultimatewarrior- Posts : 798
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Location : Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
medo wrote:Turkey drone strikes prove, that armed drones are very effective if oponent doesn't have proper air defense. When air defense is present, they are shot down very quickly. LNA shot down in a time of an hour 6 turkish drones. SAA also shot down many turkish drones, when Buk-M2 and Pantsirs come to the theatre. There are some estimates, that SAA shot down around 40 turkish drones in the first week of March. In the beginning Turkey well use Sochi agreement for drone strikes, as this agreement allow Turkish drones to monitor tampon area around observation points and at the beginning no one shot at turkish drones. Armed drones are effective only against enemy, who doesn't have air defense. For all the rest, forget it. It is better to use smaller recce drones and kamikaze drones, than big, expensive armed drones.
Ground based air defense has never been that effective. The lion's share of air defense falls on the shoulders of fighter jets. Syrian air force doesn't have any flyable fighter jet. That's why Turkey was able to take advantage and invade Syria with drones.
magnumcromagnon- Posts : 8138
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Join date : 2013-12-05
Location : Pindos ave., Pindosville, Pindosylvania, Pindostan
Look at some of the drones offered by Zala Aero:
KUB-UAV
Dimensions
1210 * 950 * 165 mm
3kg warhead, 30 minute flight time translates to 40km range. It would be nice if they made a counter part for Grad/Tornado-G. They already have UAV's for their MLRS, but these suicide drones would be a nice addition. In in the era of irregular/unconventional/asymmetrical low-intensity conflict, Grad is almost overkill in many situations, a modified version (adjusted dimensions including folding wings, and a small rocket booster) of the suicide drones of Kub-UAV, Lancet-1/3 should add good capability to target technicals as well as insurgents hiding behind cover, and maybe be able target open windows.
It would be really cool if they could be multi-stacked in a tube, for the Lancet-3 maybe 2 or 3 per tube, for Lancet-1 something like 3 or 4 per tube, and maybe 5 or 6 per tube for Kub UAV. Should add additional persistence and even greater ammo stores for Grad, maybe having like 5-10 tubes dedicated for suicide drones, and 30-35 tubes for regular ammunition.
KUB-UAV
Dimensions
1210 * 950 * 165 mm
3kg warhead, 30 minute flight time translates to 40km range. It would be nice if they made a counter part for Grad/Tornado-G. They already have UAV's for their MLRS, but these suicide drones would be a nice addition. In in the era of irregular/unconventional/asymmetrical low-intensity conflict, Grad is almost overkill in many situations, a modified version (adjusted dimensions including folding wings, and a small rocket booster) of the suicide drones of Kub-UAV, Lancet-1/3 should add good capability to target technicals as well as insurgents hiding behind cover, and maybe be able target open windows.
It would be really cool if they could be multi-stacked in a tube, for the Lancet-3 maybe 2 or 3 per tube, for Lancet-1 something like 3 or 4 per tube, and maybe 5 or 6 per tube for Kub UAV. Should add additional persistence and even greater ammo stores for Grad, maybe having like 5-10 tubes dedicated for suicide drones, and 30-35 tubes for regular ammunition.