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    Russian defence against drone swarms

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:38 am

    How hard would it be to develop medium sized drones armed with 40mm grenade launchers equipped with forward firing fragmentation grenades that auto detonate 40m from the muzzle of the gun... it would be the airborne equivalent of a claymore mine that sends a cloud of high speed fragments forward in a fan shape to deal with a range of soft targets over a distance of perhaps 10-20m. Each drone could carry hundreds of grenades and could be bigger and faster than these tiny drones and could fly in their own swarms of hundreds of craft individually hunting Russian airspace for drones to shoot down... it could take high res video of the target and the kill and the location so a ground unit could be sent out to recover the pieces and determine if there is a UXO danger and also determine who was attacking Russian territory.

    It could be very cheap as those grenades would be very cheap to develop as on firing it could ignite a short fuse like in a hand grenade to detonate the round automatically at a fixed distance from the gun muzzle. If you wanted to get smart you could have a rotary counter on each grenade so you could set the time fuse time so you could set it to explode at any distance you like before firing it though you would probably be better off with an induction coil around the muzzle that automatically sets an electronic fuse on firing the weapon. Simply lase the target and a fairly basic ballistics computer could calculate the time of flight of the grenade to the target... minus 5-10 metres and then work out the flight time and pulse that code to the grenade as it leaves the muzzle on its way to the target...


    Obviously electronic fuses would make the ammo more expensive but also more effective... a fixed time fuse that perhaps could be set by turning the grenades nose to set it from 20m to say 100m in 20m steps altering a fixed burning fuse arrangement that would be pretty reliable and very cheap... it could be loaded quickly to fend off a ground attack as the design of the grenade would make it safer for defenders as the fragments are blown forward towards the enemy rather than in all directions like standard bombs.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:41 am

    The airborne round could have a smaller propellent charge and use that extra space for more HE and more fragments to make it a more effective short range grenade.

    Note the standard new Russian 40mm grenade has a range of 2.5km and quite a heavy HE payload... rather more powerful than the older 30mm grenade... which was made more effective by having long side surfaces with lots of fragmentation material to make it rather effective for its calibre.

    The efficiency of the Russian 30mm led to China making 35mm grenades and the US developing 20mm and 25mm grenades for their future weapons systems.
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    Post  Arrow Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:01 am

    Which carrier based fighter aircraft has a radius of 1,000km? wrote:

    F-18 Super Hornet is near radius of 1000km. Cirkon is still develop.
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    Post  jhelb Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:23 pm

    GarryB wrote:How hard would it be to develop medium sized drones armed with 40mm grenade launchers equipped with forward firing fragmentation grenades that auto detonate 40m from the muzzle of the gun... it would be the airborne equivalent of a claymore mine that sends a cloud of high speed fragments forward in a fan shape to deal with a range of soft targets over a distance of perhaps 10-20m. Each drone could carry hundreds of grenades and could be bigger and faster than these tiny drones and could fly in their own swarms of hundreds of craft individually hunting Russian airspace for drones to shoot down... it could take high res video of the target and the kill and the location so a ground unit could be sent out to recover the pieces and determine if there is a UXO danger and also determine who was attacking Russian territory.

    It could be very cheap as those grenades would be very cheap to develop as on firing it could ignite a short fuse like in a hand grenade to detonate the round automatically at a fixed distance from the gun muzzle. If you wanted to get smart you could have a rotary counter on each grenade so you could set the time fuse time so you could set it to explode at any distance you like before firing it though you would probably be better off with an induction coil around the muzzle that automatically sets an electronic fuse on firing the weapon. Simply lase the target and a fairly basic ballistics computer could calculate the time of flight of the grenade to the target... minus 5-10 metres and then work out the flight time and pulse that code to the grenade as it leaves the muzzle on its way to the target...

    The current generation of swarms being envisaged by US/NATO are based on behaviourial models inspired by examples from the natural world. Foremost among these are the ways in which ‘social insects’ such as bees, ants and termites cooperate and orchestrate the division of labor among their respective ‘networks’as encapsulated by the so called ‘stigmergy‘ principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmergy

    The two essential features required for swarming to work are connectivity and autonomy. Connectivity is required to facilitate the seamless coming together of drones that are distributed in a seemingly amorphous mass at the right moment. Also, with connectivity, drones can ‘aggregate’ and ‘disaggregate’, i.e. they can join or leave the swarm, as if one cure. One could even have a situation where a single drone might detach to get a closer look at a target and then either return or be used to carry out an attack, i.e. ad-hoc detachments for specific tasks from a swarm may be possible.


    The control of drone swarms is done by using a decentralized planning control algorithm handling both stationary and moving obstacles, which owing to its decentralized nature is more resilient than centralized algorithms that have a single point of failure. However, in a decentralized algorithm each entity (drone) has only partial information of the operating environment and the other drones (for example, it can only see a few neighbors). The drones in a swarm therefore need to communicate with each other for information sharing and coordination of actions.

    According to Pentagon Swarms of uninhabited vehicles have several potential advantages:


    1. Dispersal of combat power, which forces the enemy to expend more munitions.

    2. From a focus on individual platform survivability, the system moves towards swarm resiliency. As long as there are a minimum number of drones in terms of mission sufficiency, the swarm as a whole is resilient against attack.

    3. The combat power of the swarm undergoes graceful degradation even as individual platforms are attrited, as opposed to a sharp loss in combat power if a single, more exquisite platform is lost.

    4. Dynamic self-healing networks – Swarming behavior allows drones to act in a dynamic self-healing network. In-built redundancy and resilience caters for the loss of a number of drones and yet allows the operator to maintain surveillance coverage over an area, even as continuous self-healing communications and adaptive networks take on new tasks.

    5. Swarms can saturate enemy defenses. However advanced contemporary air defence systems may be, they cannot handle so many threats at a time. Swarms can overwhelm enemy defenses, with ‘leakers’ getting through to neutralize the target.

    6. Swarms can perform distributed sensing and attack by dispersing assets over a wide area. A swarm can conduct distributed focused electronic attack, syncing up its electromagnetic signals to provide focused point jamming.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47555588
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:25 pm

    F-18 Super Hornet is near radius of 1000km. Cirkon is still develop.

    Which can't currently operate from their newest carrier whose cats don't work... but by all means tell me how F-18s will be able to fly out to 1,000km in time to sink a ship before it can launch mach nine anti ship missiles?

    By the time the Hornet is airborne it will be using its radar to search for ships and air targets so it will be easy to track... move a corvette in from the other side of the carrier group and launch half a dozen Zircons... by the time they are detected they will be about 500km from the carrier but moving towards that carrier at 3km per second and probably at about 40km altitude... you can redirect you Hornets to intercept but they will never make it to the missiles before they hit their carrier and the Corvette will hardly be chased down because a minimum of two or three US ships are about to be obliterated... even if they find and sink that single corvette so what... a corvette sunk in return for a super carrier and probably 4 or 5 other AEGIS cruisers... that sounds like a very raw deal for the worlds last super power...
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:06 pm


    The current generation of swarms being envisaged by US/NATO are based on behaviourial models inspired by examples from the natural world. Foremost among these are the ways in which ‘social insects’ such as bees, ants and termites cooperate and orchestrate the division of labor among their respective ‘networks’as encapsulated by the so called ‘stigmergy‘ principle

    Well that makes a lot of sense because we are totally helpless to the natural world and everyone knows that Soviet airspace has been repeatedly penetrated by bees and birds not to mention termites... NOT.

    Pesticides have almost wiped out bees and ants would not do well if attacked by a TOS battalion... but if course if the US can produce trillions of drones they might have a chance... but they are themselves vulnerable to attack by much more conventional weapons that are cheaper and easier to use. So in effect they are developing attacks that can defeat a defence that is better than what they currently have... what they currently have will defeat their defences... so they will in effect be developing technologies a generation ahead of what Russia needs to defeat them and Russia will oblige because she wants to defend herself.

    The two essential features required for swarming to work are connectivity and autonomy. Connectivity is required to facilitate the seamless coming together of drones that are distributed in a seemingly amorphous mass at the right moment. Also, with connectivity, drones can ‘aggregate’ and ‘disaggregate’, i.e. they can join or leave the swarm, as if one cure. One could even have a situation where a single drone might detach to get a closer look at a target and then either return or be used to carry out an attack, i.e. ad-hoc detachments for specific tasks from a swarm may be possible.

    EMP turns them off... and a bee is a miracle of compact design... the size weapon payload a bee could carry for any distance would be tiny... you would need a large number of them to be effective in damaging a target... odds are that they will be rather bigger... more bird like... and with a small payload that will require the highest of accuracy to be effective with a payload likely less powerful than a hand grenade.


    The control of drone swarms is done by using a decentralized planning control algorithm handling both stationary and moving obstacles, which owing to its decentralized nature is more resilient than centralized algorithms that have a single point of failure. However, in a decentralized algorithm each entity (drone) has only partial information of the operating environment and the other drones (for example, it can only see a few neighbors). The drones in a swarm therefore need to communicate with each other for information sharing and coordination of actions.

    EMP takes them out enmass... if you want to protect them from EMP attack they will need to be bigger and heavier and less effective.

    2. From a focus on individual platform survivability, the system moves towards swarm resiliency. As long as there are a minimum number of drones in terms of mission sufficiency, the swarm as a whole is resilient against attack.

    Meaning they need to have enormous numbers to be effective relying on the fact that most air defences... especially in the west would rapidly run out of missiles and depth and be overwhelmed... they are hoping for the same with Russian defences... and of course they will be right because Russia simply can't defend every inch of Russian territory, but then the US would not be able to produce enough swarm drones... nor deliver them on site to get the needed numbers.

    5. Swarms can saturate enemy defenses. However advanced contemporary air defence systems may be, they cannot handle so many threats at a time. Swarms can overwhelm enemy defenses, with ‘leakers’ getting through to neutralize the target.

    The US was talking about swarm attacks in the late 1980s... to suggest the Russians have no answer is absurd... they are developing a range of solutions... there is never going to be one solution that always works, but as a bonus a lot of the solutions are dual purpose and can be used for other roles where they are outstandingly useful too... EMP weapons will work on all sorts of western electronic systems too and will make a very useful payload for some of their weapons... remember C4IR... one of those Cs is computers... EMP will make all western electronic equipment vulnerable to another form of attack... if they can perfect beam weapon models of their systems they might create a system to knock out western satellites in orbit without needing to launch a rocket from a MiG-31...

    6. Swarms can perform distributed sensing and attack by dispersing assets over a wide area. A swarm can conduct distributed focused electronic attack, syncing up its electromagnetic signals to provide focused point jamming.

    They could probably do all sorts of things... but then they need to transmit the information to something and lets face it... that will be targeted by a Zircon if it is close and a Bulava if it is further away.

    Even assuming they don't fuck it up and they come up with capable systems that are cheap and easy to produce and have long range and wonderful payload capacity... it becomes an unusable weapon because Russia will just say you send a swarm to attack us and we will fucking nuke you because your swarms might disable our nuclear deterrent so we might as well use it before we lose it... so can these bees and birds take out ICBM warheads in space on their way to the US and EU?
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    Post  Isos Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:22 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    F-18 Super Hornet is near radius of 1000km. Cirkon is still  develop.

    They are building almost ten yasen that can launch 32 cruise missiles hundreds km away undetected and f18 will be useless against. And good luck finding a Yasen 1000km from your carrier.

    If it somehow bypass the yasen, there will be the other 8 oscar 2 armed with p-700 and 650mm torpedoes, and then akulas supported by the big ships like gorshkov frigates and then kilo subs and their kalibr missiles supported by corvettes armed with UKSK and the naval air wings with su-30SM armed with anti ship missiles like kh-35/31. And also mig31k with its kinzhal.
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    Post  GarryB Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:57 pm

    In the 80s they were certain their carriers were invisible and any platform that managed to detect them would be destroyed leaving them like stealthy things that are invisible...

    But in reality there are satellites going up all the time that can track carriers very easily... the radar and optical and IR signature of an aircraft carrier is pretty distinctive.

    They are also adding to their satellite network too, but really the only carriers that matter are the ones within striking distance of Russia... which puts them well within range of ground based OTH radar and sensor equipment... aircraft carriers have no where to hide.

    Not to say they are useless, but they are not the dominant ship they have been since WWII... the range of the aircraft made battleships redundant... well now they will need to rethink things... a navy is valuable as it gives world wide reach, and a navy needs aircraft to defend surface and subsurface vessels so carriers will be needed, but likely more air defence than land attack... much more a defense carrier than an aggressive attack one.
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    Post  jhelb Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:EMP takes them out enmass... if you want to protect them from EMP attack they will need to be bigger and heavier and less effective.

    If they are bigger and heavier why will they be less effective ?

    For instance China is employing a similar Swarm Drone strategy. Their drone of choice is a DJI built drone. Something similar to this

    https://www.dji.com/inspire-2?site=brandsite&from=nav

    That aside, we cannot and should not judge how effective these systems are based on how effective they will be against Russia.

    Probably against Russia they do not stand a chance, but US, NATO can use these Swarm Drones against Asia, African countries. They don't have the tech that Russia has. Consequently they will suffer.

    I rather suspect US/NATO will hand over such Swarm drone tech to various terrorist groups who can then carry out such attacks on the behalf of US/NATO.
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    Post  Arrow Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:34 pm

    They are also adding to their satellite network too, but really the only carriers that matter are the ones within striking distance of Russia... which puts them well within range of ground based OTH radar and sensor equipment... aircraft carriers have no where to hide. wrote:

    Russia needs a new global satellite system for ship detection. Legenda successor. Without it, it will be difficult to shoot targets beyond the horizon at 1000km. There is currently no successor to the Legend system.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:55 pm

    OHRs, drones, & forward deployed AWACS can pick up the slack.
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    Post  Viktor Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:37 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    Russia needs a new global satellite system for ship detection. Legenda successor. Without it, it will be difficult to shoot targets beyond the horizon at 1000km. There is currently no successor to the Legend system.

    They are building one for quite some time now and with much broader range of capabilities. There is even a separate theme about it Very Happy

    https://www.russiadefence.net/t3206-liana-reconnaissance-system?highlight=liana
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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 29, 2019 2:13 am

    If they are bigger and heavier why will they be less effective ?

    Bigger and heavier means costs more to make, can carry fewer at a time, will be less in any swarm you generate, will be easier to detect both visually and electronically. Harder to deliver and require bigger platforms to deliver them. They will use more energy to move around with more drag which will reduce speed and range.

    For instance China is employing a similar Swarm Drone strategy. Their drone of choice is a DJI built drone. Something similar to this

    And of course Russia will be developing similar technology too, and my money would be on China and Russia doing a much better job because they know about making things simple enough to work in the field and cheap enough to mass produce in the enormous numbers needed.

    Look at Metis-M1 and Javelin anti tank missiles. On paper the American weapon is vastly more capable... fire and forget... a simple choice really.

    Except it is not that obvious... Javelin doesn't work on just any target... it needs to have a distinct IR signature for the mass produced IR seeker in the missile to get a lock, and you are not always going to get that.

    If you can't get a lock then you have two rather slow ATGMs of similar range, with the Russian missile having better armour penetration, and costing a fraction of what the US missile costs. The Russian system can be fitted with a thermal sight so detection and engagement will be similar, but for the price of one Javelin missile you could probably buy 500 Metis missiles... the Javelins cost hundreds of thousands of dollars each, while Metis missiles cost about $5K each... so on a battlefield you can deploy 10 thousand Metis missiles or for the same price perhaps 1,000 Javelins.

    In practical terms the difference is cost... in normal conflicts these missiles will be used against almost anything and everything... from a window in a building to a sniper in a tree, or MG position with sandbags, or a toyota truck with a HMG on the back and everything in between... none of which will care a jot whether it is hit by Metis or Javelin... in fact both missiles will likely be manually guided because locks on most targets are not reliable enough anyway.

    Javelin is not a bad system.... it is just too expensive... in a few years with a digital video seeker chip that can see in IR and UV frequencies that costs a few dollars per sensor then it will be a good system, but for now it would make more sense to walk over to the taleban position and tell him through an interpreter that you are about to demolish the position he is hiding in with a half million dollar missile... would he accept $100K in cash to just go home and not fight any more... and I would bet more than half the time they would save $400K on that missile shot.

    That aside, we cannot and should not judge how effective these systems are based on how effective they will be against Russia.

    They don't really need them against anyone else... apart from Syria now.... Twisted Evil

    Their attacks on countries are making those countries upgrade their defences and rendering attacks that used to work rather well impotent... they did the same with over prescribing antibiotics and are creating super bugs.

    The amusing thing is that as I said before their development of these attack strategies will force China and Russia to do the same... Russia is already largely immune to their current attack systems and strategies, so when they start working on their own swarm systems and defences along with their hypersonic attack strategies and defences the west is going to be in trouble.

    The west wasted all this time with stealth and ignored speed, now they are going for numbers... we shall see how it turns out, but look at UKSK launchers on Russian ships... they are going for numbers AND speed... and swarm technology was on Granit and Vulkan anti ship missiles in the late 1970s... it really isn't new... Zircon will already be part of a swarm...

    It could take out major radar sites ahead of a swarm attack...

    Probably against Russia they do not stand a chance, but US, NATO can use these Swarm Drones against Asia, African countries. They don't have the tech that Russia has. Consequently they will suffer.

    Well of course the thing is that this will promote Russian air defence networks and IADS for a much wider range of customers... most of which right now would probably be vulnerable to conventional cruise missile attack... like most of Europe.

    I rather suspect US/NATO will hand over such Swarm drone tech to various terrorist groups who can then carry out such attacks on the behalf of US/NATO.

    Agree, they hand out Stingers and Javelins like they are lollies, but few terrorist groups could deliver a large enough drone swarm for it to be effective and as you probably already know the Russians have been working on detection and tracking systems to determine the origin of drone attacks and who they are communicating with... so they will end up handing inert samples of these drones to the Russians (after EMP effects) and also handing them an excuse to direct international attention at the west simply because no terrorist organisation could build these so called sophisticated micro drones with high tech swarm protocols... so local CIA and blackwater or whatever they are called now can be targeted for retaliation.

    Russia needs a new global satellite system for ship detection. Legenda successor. Without it, it will be difficult to shoot targets beyond the horizon at 1000km. There is currently no successor to the Legend system.

    You mean Liana which is being built up now and will consist of a system of advanced satellites for tracking ships and submarines all round the planet.

    The only targets they actually care about are within range of Russia itself and their OTH radars would already detect them within 3-4K kms from Russian territory... which is plenty. Liana will enable them to track carriers anywhere on the planet when it is fully operational, but there is no real hurry at the moment... they are building up that capability.
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    Post  kvs Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:11 am

    Every article in the west that touches on Russia is demented drivel. When it comes to Russia, it is painted as some 5th world toilet where
    the people have no brains and need to steal everything from the shining west. When it comes to the west, every freaking idea is treated
    as the ultimate in human intellectual achievement. This drone swarm BS is an obvious fad for idiots. It takes the notion of mass attack
    and packages it with "high tech" drones and voila, superwaffe.

    If you look at pigeon swarming from some office high rise window, you see an annoying thing. Some pigeon gets spooked by a wind
    gust and the swarm takes off, pointlessly swirling around before coming down to their perches. Other than food energy waste, this
    behaviour achieves nothing. Why this is supposed to be some brilliant idea for drones reflects on the whole concept. Instead
    of targets, the drones will be chasing each other and spend 90% of their time in pointless swarming activity.

    Either stick to bioweapons or massive missile attacks. Don't wank yourself with idiotic gimmicks that do not advance anything.
    At the end of the day, all of this fantasy is a subconscious admission that Russia can counter whatever NATO can throw at it.
    So the search for stupid gimmicks is grasping at straws.

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    Post  GarryB Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:45 am

    The other issue is control... imagine the US makes a swarm based on red ants which are ruthless and are expanding north into the US because they are destroying existing ant colonies and everything else in their way... but they need to be able to control them... what happens if an enemy gets control and the swarm just attacks everything in its path.

    The US has a history of testing on its own population... they sent vans around major US cities releasing flu virus from the exhaust system of the vehicle and then they monitored the local hospitals and health care centres to determine how it spread... how fast and in which directions...

    They also tested the lethality of plutonium by injecting it into terminal patients... they claimed it was a potential cure... some signed up for it but many had no idea what was going on. They all died of course.... much quicker than they would have with no "treatment".
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    Post  Arrow Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:43 am

    nty. Liana will enable them to track carriers anywhere on the planet when it is fully operational wrote:

    But now Russia has only 3 satellites of this type? What coverage does it give? Is the OTH radar able to give accurate indications for anti-ship missiles?
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    Post  Isos Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:49 pm

    Arrow wrote:

    But now Russia has only 3 satellites of this type? What coverage does it give? Is the OTH radar able to give accurate indications for anti-ship missiles?

    They need to control norther sea and pacific sea against Us carriers. Few satelittes, some OTH radars, SOSUS detectors around their coast and maritim patrol planes is enough.

    OTH radars have horrible accuracy I think. But you can know if something is coming by and send your air force to investigate.
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    Post  kvs Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:35 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Arrow wrote:

    But now Russia has only 3 satellites of this type? What coverage does it give? Is the OTH radar able to give accurate indications for anti-ship missiles?

    They need to control norther sea and pacific sea against Us carriers. Few satelittes, some OTH radars, SOSUS detectors around their coast and maritim patrol planes is enough.

    OTH radars have horrible accuracy I think. But you can know if something is coming by and send your air force to investigate.

    The accuracy cannot be that bad if they can detect missiles. At all stages of flight. The cross section of warheads is very small but
    these OTH detection installations can still track them. They even picked up the V formations of Canada geese during the early 1980s
    creating a potential nuclear launch situation. These V formations are like a string since the geese are small. It is interesting that
    the EM backscatter can be obtained from non-metallic targets. So even composite material warheads will be not be invisible to the
    OTH radars.

    OTH radars are sophisticated phased array systems that clearly can pick very weak backscatter.

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    Post  Hole Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:25 pm

    OTH radars work even better over water.

    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 000310
    Old system
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    Resonanz
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    Podsolnukh. Can track more then 100 ships simultaneously.
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    Post  Hole Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:26 pm

    We´re are soooooooooo off-topic. Mad Very Happy Embarassed
    GarryB
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    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Empty Russian defence against western drone swarm technology

    Post  GarryB Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:20 am

    But now Russia has only 3 satellites of this type? What coverage does it give? Is the OTH radar able to give accurate indications for anti-ship missiles?

    There is only one ISS but it orbits the earth every 90 minutes... three satellites could be spaced to cover most of the northern hemisphere most of the time... when tracking carriers and subs you don't need to hover above them 24/7... they have a limited top speed and can't just sail in any direction they like most of the time... often they have somewhere to go so you know where they will be...

    OTH radars are not tracking radars.... they are search radars that detect the presence and general location of threats and targets.

    Russia doesn't have a lot of access to the sea but where it does it has things called ships which in peace time can spot enemy ships and ship groupings as well as airborne threats too.

    We´re are soooooooooo off-topic

    Quite right... will look for a suitable location for this discussion.
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    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian defence against drone swarms

    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:10 pm

    Some promising Russian means of fighting unmanned aerial vehicles

    According to a vector issued by JSC Research Institute Vektor (part of the Vega Concern of the holding Roselektronika), the company took part in the VII All-Russian Scientific and Practical Conference Russian Technologies of Anti-Terrorism Protection, Security and Defense, which is held in Kaluga potentially dangerous objects. "

    At the venue of the event, the Scientific Research Institute “Vector” presents the key developments of the enterprise in the field of monitoring the environment of critical objects in order to identify unauthorized UAVs and counteract them - passive coherent location complex (PCL), Cheremukha control channel detection module and small UAV radio-electronic suppression module “ Sickle".

    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 7451127_original

    Passive coherent location complex (PKL) (c) JSC Research Institute "Vector"

    PKL provides the location and tracking of UAVs in a guarded zone, and also controls the drone's movement path when it is suppressed. At the same time, the product uses third-party sources of radio signals to illuminate the targets and is a passive system that does not emit unmasking signals.

    The “Bird cherry” module provides the ability to detect, direction finding and positioning both the drone itself and its control panel, while having the ability to simultaneously operate on several UAVs.

    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 7451510_original

    Module "Bird cherry" (c) JSC Research Institute "Vector"

    The “Sickle” electronic suppression module provides suppression of small UAVs in the angle sector ± 45º and at a distance of up to 20 km, providing continuous frequency overlap in the range from 400 to 6200 MG, currently used for UAV control, as well as all frequencies of global navigation satellite systems. The module creates interference, aimed in frequency and direction, upon command from detection and radio monitoring equipment. An arbitrary number of suppression modules can be included in the counteraction system, thereby solving the tasks of protecting against UAV flying from several directions at the same time, and protecting extended and area objects.

    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 7451390_original

    Radio-electronic suppression module "Sickle" (c) JSC Research Institute "Vector"

    “All the described modules can be combined into a single complex that solves the problem of protection against UAVs. A specific solution - the choice of modification, the determination of the required number of modules, their distribution over the territory of the protected facility, the allocation of each module of its area of ​​responsibility - is made at the stage of project development according to customer requirements, taking into account the configuration of the facility and the threat model. At the same time, the undoubted advantages of our system are the ability to ensure stealth of use, detection of stealth objects, the absence of interference with other radio engineering devices, and the need to obtain permission to use radio frequency channels, ”said Sergey Skorykh, Director General of Research Institute Vektor.

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3820848.html
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    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian defence against drone swarms

    Post  jhelb Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:18 pm

    GarryB wrote:It could take out major radar sites ahead of a swarm attack...

    Steve Trimble posted this on Twitter yesterday. He says :

    Russians use UAVs with a UHF receiver and optical camera to locate and jam Ukrainian counter-artillery radars, then call in mortar strike on radar location. In 2019, two Ukrainian UAV jammers were shelled using this method but they survived.

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1189314623964618754.html
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    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian defence against drone swarms

    Post  GarryB Thu Oct 31, 2019 2:57 am

    First of all cut the western bullshit, the russians aren't in the Ukraine, that is just Kiev excuses for poor performance and to get western support because they are not killing their own people for speaking Russian, they are fighting Russians.

    Second what has this to do with taking out major radar sites as you quote me saying?

    This is a case of the Ukraine trying to jam eastern Ukrainian UAVs and moving before they can shell the locations the jamming came from... and that is assuming they are even telling the truth... which is a stretch... why would they start now?
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    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Empty Re: Russian defence against drone swarms

    Post  Arrow Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:12 am

    An aircraft carrier group consisting of several destroyers has a very powerful anti-aircraft defense. No one can compare with them. It is not known how much Cirkon is needed to neutralize any destroyer or aircraft carrier. Several rockets against several hundred anti-aircraft missiles?  Laughing
    A group of aircraft carriers can go with several Virginia submarine that will detect and attack this frigate or other corvette before they realize that someone is following them. The US will have 50 Virginia-type ships, plus other units. It will be the largest nuclear submarine fleet in the world, which will also protect aircraft carrier teams. Destroying an aircraft carrier group is extremely difficult. Even for Russia and China.
    OTH radars are deep in Russia and do not cover much of the oceans and seas in the north.
    USA that still dominates the seas and oceans. Several Russian  frigates and corvette   with Cirkon and and several Mig-31K will not change their balance of power.
    These Americans are idiots building aircraft carriers for USD 15 billion and a small Russian corvette is able to sink them. It's not that easy.

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