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    Russian defence against drone swarms

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:58 am

    AEGIS radars also misidentified an ascending Airbus, as being a descending F-14... and managed to have a missile failure that delayed launch of its main SAM system STANDARD for 90 seconds... a minute and a half they were vulnerable... and when they did fire their missile and shoot down that unarmed civilian airliner, they did so from Iranian waters...
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    Post  jhelb on Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:09 pm

    GarryB wrote:The other issue is control... imagine the US makes a swarm based on red ants which are ruthless and are expanding north into the US because they are destroying existing ant colonies and everything else in their way...

    This is one such drone that can act in a swarm. It is designed by an Australian company called DefendTex.

    A 40mm drone that can fire from a grenade launcher. Payloads include camera, anti-armor, fuel-air, HE/frag, diversionary, smoke, counter-UAS, etc. With these mixed of payload types, Drone-40 can be used individually, paired, or as a swarm, to a variety of effects.


    https://www.overtdefense.com/2019/06/07/defendtex-drone-40-the-australian-uav-that-can-be-fired-from-a-40mm-grenade-launcher/

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EISgQRUXkAETnyu.jpg
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sat Nov 02, 2019 3:50 pm

    Modified WWII era anti-aircraft gun rounds can be effective against this drone wunderwaffen. Small, poorly shielded drones, no
    matter their hyped abilities, are vulnerable to shrapnel. Rounds or shells which detonate in the vicinity of a swarm can take
    out the whole swarm if they produce enough shrapnel. So packed pellets smaller than the ones used by Buk missiles are more
    than enough.

    Attack drone swarms are the new fad. But they can be countered and the fad will fade away.

    Small single drones for recon are going to retain their usefulness.

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    Post  GarryB on Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:10 pm

    A 40mm drone that can fire from a grenade launcher. Payloads include camera, anti-armor, fuel-air, HE/frag, diversionary, smoke, counter-UAS, etc. With these mixed of payload types, Drone-40 can be used individually, paired, or as a swarm, to a variety of effects.

    Yeah, but the guy launching that 40mm grenade becomes very vulnerable to getting shot himself... and the threat from a 40mm grenade can be dealt with using the correct level of protection.

    The stuff the Aussies are doing with 40mm grenades the Russians are likely doing too... and 57mm shells and 82mm rounds and 120mm rounds and 125mm rounds and 152mm rounds etc etc etc.

    And airbursting 152mm shell with GLONASS guidance that can hit the ground within 10m of a target could also be programmed to fly through a swarm of threats and detonate in mid air sending out probably 30kgs of small fragments accelerated by a 10kg HE charge to obliterate a large number of soft targets within 20-30m of the airburst round... and it can fire those rather rapidly at targets within a 140km diameter circle. Talk of upgraded 160km rounds makes that a 320km circle...

    The thing is that new technology can be applied in defence as well as attack... a Russian swarm of anti drone drones could be used to take out a US attack drone swarm... and you can bet the trillion dollar US drone swarm will not last long against the 50 cent Russian drones...


    Last edited by GarryB on Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:50 am; edited 1 time in total
    jhelb
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:57 am

    GarryB wrote:EMP turns them off... and a bee is a miracle of compact design... the size weapon payload a bee could carry for any distance would be tiny... you would need a large number of them to be effective in damaging a target... odds are that they will be rather bigger... more bird like... and with a small payload that will require the highest of accuracy to be effective with a payload likely less powerful than a hand grenade.

    Firing an EMP device into a swarm of drones is a great idea. However, if you do that in a city, there is a chance that the EMP blast will not only knock off the drones buts also other utilities like ATMs, hospital utilities etc, because those electronic machines (like ATMs) are not hardened to withstand an EMP blast.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:56 am

    EMP is governed by range limits with intense power near the payload, but trailing off with distance. One round wont black out an entire city, but even if it did we are talking about dangerous armed drones here... they need to be dealt with.

    Any terrorist attack with that level of sophistication can be traced to the countries that support it and you can seize assets or send them a tactical nuke surprise in return for any damage done.

    During WWIII who cares if you can't get out some cash at the ATM... that is the least of your problems.

    I am sure if it goes off near an old folks home a lot of pacemakers are going to stop suddenly... hell the American VA might ask for these rounds to be tested near their homes so they can kill off some of their older patients and save some money.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:26 am

    There is a video of a russian guy who said the EMP warehead for iskander had an effect radius of 400m.

    A smaller one for gun will be less effective.
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    Post  Hole on Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:10 am

    Russia is rather good prepared for these magical drone swarms. Lot of EW systems, including dedicated ones for drone defence. Tor, Tunguska, Pantsir, Sosna, 2S38...

    Compared to that the west looks weal and vulnerable. And Russia and China are capable of sending drone swarms into battle. All the tech is already tested.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:20 am

    The hilarious aspect of both stealth-fetishism and drone-swarm-fetishism, is that they're both very vulnerable to ELINT/SIGINT. Every time a low-observable stealth platform gives off  any electromagnetic emission they're vulnerable to dedicated ELINT/SIGINT triangulation, the same applies to drone use/abuse. Detect the drone controller and destroy it, and they effectively killed the drone or drone swarms. VKS in Syria just recently did this (and have been doing this the entirety of the campaign), and every time the jihadists do this, they get detected and have themselves and their base of operation blown to smithereens. 

    These cheap easily dispensable drones are not sophisticated to have inertial guidance, if they did they would grow one order of magnitude in formidably, but they would also grow an order of magnitude in cost (defeating their purpose).
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:45 am

    There is a video of a russian guy who said the EMP warehead for iskander had an effect radius of 400m.

    A smaller one for gun will be less effective.

    It is a bit like a nuclear bomb in the sense that increasing the power by double does not increase the effective radius by double.

    That is where artillery is useful because 4-5 small airburst rounds will be rather more effective than a single much larger round... if you have an enemy infantry charge with thousands of soldiers attacking across a small front, you don't get your biggest heaviest slowest firing artillery piece to drop a shell in the middle... you open up with small calibre exploding rounds... a cluster bomb with hundreds of 1kg munitions spread over the front will do more damage than a single 500kg bomb.

    5-10 152mm EMP shells going off in a grid pattern in the midst of a drone swarm will do rather more damage in terms of volume, than an Iskander round of 500-600kg with an EMP load.

    It is not about power but about distribution.
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    Post  Isos on Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:16 am

    And against a supa-mega connected f-35 the use of EMP would be even more funny lol1
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    Post  jhelb on Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:57 pm

    GarryB wrote:The thing is that new technology can be applied in defence as well as attack... a Russian swarm of anti drone drones could be used to take out a US attack drone swarm... and you can bet the trillion dollar US drone swarm will not last long against the 50 cent Russian drones...

    What you are saying is true. But do note that a swarm drone attack can also be carried out by Unmanned Ground Vehicles (UGVs) also and not just UAVs.

    IMO, defending against a swarm drone attack involving UGVs is going to be extremely difficult.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:50 am

    Of course it is, I am not suggesting Russia is 100% safe... no one is... and lets face it... Russia is probably the safest place on earth in terms of air defence.

    The point I am making is that while the west has no choice but to move forward with ever more potent forms of attack to try to find a chink in Russian air defence protection, Russia already has a range of weapons to defeat western defences and is in the process of introducing even more capable penetrators while at the same time mastering technologies that should increase flight speed and innovate in various technologies including materials and engines etc etc.

    For the west these swarms they call smart, but we have no reason to believe they could not be defeated or even taken over and used against their owners.

    Most important to be useful they need to be capable but also affordable... a swarm really only works with numbers... one bird is not a problem at an airport... it is the flock of thousands of birds that is the problem and I really can't see an American or European company coming up with anything cheap enough to be used in numbers enough to make them effective... and their biggest problem is that that is the sort of thing Russia and China would be good at... so it might end up like chem and bio weapons or nukes... we made some but they made some too so we can't use ours because they will use theirs in retaliation... especially when we can afford lots because we spend too much on military systems, while they can afford lots because theirs are affordable... the west ends up bankrupting itself again... which is probably a good thing.
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:20 pm

    Kupol-PRO C-UAS system

    Russia’s arms exporting company Rosoboronexport (a subsidiary of Rostec state corporation) unveiled its new concept of a four-tier C-UAV defence system, which comprises a wide range of solutions ranging from tactical electronic warfare (EW) devices to man-portable anti-drone guns.

    The first level of the above-mentioned anti-drone system includes the Repellent C-UAV device, which has been developed and produced by JSC Defense Systems (Oboronitelniye Sistemy). The Repellent can detect and spoof UAVs at a distance of no less than 30 km. The system features high level of ruggedness: Rosoboronexport claims that it functions under the harshest climatic conditions, including dust, rain, and strong wind. The Repellent detects both the drone and its ground control station, jamming every control and navigation datalink.

    The devices which have been integrated into the second tier of the system protect critical military and civil infrastructure. This layer comprises the Sapsan-Bekas mobile C-UAV system and Kupol-PRO and Rubezh-Avtomatika devices. The Sapsan-Bekas is fitted with both active and passive UAV detection units, allowing the system to detect even drones with low radio emission. The complex can conduct all-round or sector scanning.

    https://www.edrmagazine.eu/russia-enters-c-uav-domain
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    Post  Hole on Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:08 pm

    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Dome-p10
    Kupol-PRO
    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Pischa10
    Pischal-PRO
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:25 pm

    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Dronegun

    http://mil.today/2019/Science13/

    Updated Harpoon Dronegun Debuted at ISSE-2019

    The Harpoon-2M portable system designed by New Telecommunication Technologies (NTT) to fight commercial UAVs was presented at the Integrated Safety & Security Exhibition 2019 (ISSE-2019). Available in mobile and stationery versions, the system is capable to block the drones’ command and navigation control channels.

    The system interrupts the operator-UAV link on 8 frequency bands. It also bars the drones from positioning capability, suppressing four navigation systems: GPS, Galileo, Beidou and GLONASS.

    The system can be operated both off-shoulder and from fixed positions. In the latter case, Harpoon-2M is mounted on the remotely controlled two-axial rotator.

    With fully charged battery, the system can operate for 60 minutes in the suppression mode. Power consumption: not more than 220 W.

    The NTT expert Roman Slesarenko explained what problems the droneguns designers were facing.

    "When protecting an object, we identify aerial vehicles by their signatures. To obtain a signature, you need to get an insight into a drone. Thus, we have to contact manufacturers of the newly commercialized UAVs. They get in touch reluctantly, thinking our projects are spearheaded against them", shares Roman Slesarenko. "However, it is my belief that co-working with us would improve their image. The less incidents happen to certain brands of drones, the better for them. Our system does prevent such incidents".

    Earlier on, manufacturers of droneguns outlined another problem to Mil.Press Today. Export of the products was suspended as there’s still no common view whether they are military-purpose goods. Insiders in one of the dronegun production companies confirm the issue is still urgent: the domestically made systems cannot be supplied even to security experts of Russia’s Lukoil that protect oil facilities in Iraq.


    Last edited by flamming_python on Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  flamming_python on Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:28 pm

    Only good for commercial drones, but still

    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Kasp1
    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Kasp2
    Russian defence against drone swarms - Page 5 Kasp3

    Neuronet: Drones Won’t Pass

    At the international exhibition of state security facilities Interpolitex-2019 in Moscow, Kaspersky Lab presented a prototype of modular system countering commercial drones. The system’s delivery to the first client is expected in 2020, the project designer Vladimir Kleshnin told Mil.Press Today.

    The system includes the primary detection module equipped with laser scanner and various cams, and the rotary support with equipment to track the drone and suppress the operator’s control link.

    "The highest spot is its software", said Vladimir Kleshnin. "We taught the first version of our neuronet basing on the drone types currently most widespread on the commercial market, but now it can differ a drone from, say, a bird, even if it sees such drone for the first time. We’ve tested it on the range: we took off a customed drone, and the system easily identified it as a threat".

    According to the expert of Kaspersky Lab, the project is designed to counter civil drones that are on sale everywhere. "Military drones is not our specialty though", added Vladimir Kleshnin.

    He stressed that Kaspersky Lab in that project is responsible only for software, while hardware is supplied by partners/integrators. Moreover, he added, the software can be adapted for visual/sound/laser detection systems, that a potential customer already uses in its security system.

    "In the future, we plan to implement the ‘friend-or-foe’ system to close airspace from unauthorized entry and allow own drones, for example, monitor or record", summed up Vladimir Kleshnin.

    http://mil.today/2019/Science37/
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    Post  Hole on Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:57 pm

    Most terrorists use civilian drones.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:33 am

    That is not strictly true, because the most powerful and capable terrorists make their own from scratch... is US, Israel, UK, French, German, NATO etc etc...  Twisted Evil
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    Post  jhelb on Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:47 pm

    Turkey is getting military drones armed with machine guns

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/2227168-turkey-is-getting-military-drones-armed-with-machine-guns/

    Imagine a swarm of these drones attacking a target. The target will be a toast.

    Russia,China can probably defend themselves from these attacks but what about other countries like Venezuela, Syria ? Already US tried to kill the Venezuelan leader by using a drone.
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    Post  Isos on Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:52 pm

    jhelb wrote:Turkey is getting military drones armed with machine guns

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/2227168-turkey-is-getting-military-drones-armed-with-machine-guns/

    Imagine a swarm of these drones attacking a target. The target will be a toast.

    Russia,China can probably defend themselves from these attacks but what about other countries like Venezuela, Syria ? Already US tried to kill the Venezuelan leader by using a drone.

    The drone is 25kg. At the first shot it will start turning because of the machine gun recoil. It sucks.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:39 am

    Lots of issues there... such a system would need to be manually controlled to prevent it just shooting everyone and anyone... a flight of them murdering civilians would be a war crime... that is something the US gets away with all the time but I doubt Turkey could get away with that.

    If it needs to be directed then it will not so much be an autonomous drone and more a remote control drone.

    Just looking at it I would say it was a .223 calibre weapon so while it talks about accuracy at 200m with such a short barrel (as used on their LMG versions of the Minimi as used in Afghanistan and Iraq) it was found 200m was the effective range of the round... if it is hovering to fire accurately then at 200m from the targets it could easily get small arms return fire that would bring it down fairly easily too.

    Those new airburst 30mm cannon shells they were developing would be ideal to kill this sort of target... the accuracy of the gun gets it close to the target and the remote detonation system makes it explode nearby sending fragments to shatter the drone with perhaps one shot because it does not need to make contact to get a kill like a rifle bullet would.

    Such things would be useful in specific cases but it is hardly going to be significant on the battlefield.
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    Post  jhelb on Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:31 pm

    GarryB wrote:Such things would be useful in specific cases but it is hardly going to be significant on the battlefield.

    The US Navy is now working on a Program To Project False Fleets From Drone Swarms. I'm hoping the Russian Navy will develop some counter measure against this up coming threat

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29505/the-navys-secretive-nemesis-electronic-warfare-capability-will-change-naval-combat-forever

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    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 16, 2019 1:43 am

    I am sure the Russians are very aware of most secret US programmes designed to attack Russia...

    The Amusing thing about this sort of venture... even assuming it worked... making Russia think it is under mass drone attack is most likely to cause them to both mobilise to stop the attack but also to strike back at where they think the attack came from... which is fine for people sitting in Washington, but when the fake drone swarm seems to take off from Poland and Russia launches a nuclear armed Iskander to vapourise the base it came from there might be some red faced Americans, and Poles with burned off faces of course...

    That sounds like an excellent system that will be well worth the money they spend on that...
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    Post  medo on Thu Dec 26, 2019 4:45 pm


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