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    Anti-Putin Discussion

    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:03 am


    Well, of course, they can, lots of vets who served and operated the same equipment are among them.

    There is no evidence of that...

    More importantly why did the Ukrainians have air defence missiles of that type there... the rebels had no planes.

    The rebels shot down plenty of Ukrainian planes and didn't need to use BUK for any of those engagements.

    The rebels didn't control the airspace so why were Ukrainian ATC vectoring aircraft over a warzone... traditionally such things are a no no.

    To have a working IFF they would need a structure consisting of a C&C vehicle AND launcher, while they MIGHT have a launcher itself.

    You don't need an IFF system... that aircraft would be transmitting its civilian information to make it appear on ATC radar... the same transmission information should appear on the BUK system too.

    And you are assuming they would want to keep a recently captured air defence near the front lines where it would make sense for the Ukraine to try to destroy it considering the threat it represents to civilian and military air traffic.

    That makes it possible to shoot and aim, but not check the identity.

    Yeah, they are rebels who want to continue speaking Russian in their own country (Ukraine), they are not terrorists keen to shoot down any aircraft that flys within range.


    and the whole lecture with English translation, if someone is really interested to dig in.

    I already know it was a false flag operation by the west.

    Inexperienced crews could assume it was a Ukrainian transport (like those IL-76 & An-26 they dropped before);

    So why just shoot down one plane there were dozens of planes flying through that airspace every day... why not shoot them all down?

    or the SBU or Western agent planted there could press the button so Russia would be blamed.

    Who cares, this is a crime committed by the west who are murdering their own so they can impose sanctions on Russia... the western governments who are colluding with this bullshit are scum and should be facing a war crime tribunal.

    That Spanish ATC allegedly working in Kiev turned out to be fake & disappeared, along with other theories the Russian propaganda floated.

    The Air Traffic Controller worked for Kiev and did exactly what Kiev wanted and was therefore part of the murder plan... he has probably already been murdered and his body distributed over a very wide area of real estate to prevent him giving evidence about the Ukraine troops murdering these passengers and crew.

    Khodorkovsky

    The opinion of convicted criminals does not hold much weight in civilised society.

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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:42 am

    More importantly why did the Ukrainians have air defence missiles of that type there... the rebels had no planes.
    in case the RF VKS got involved- the doctrine requires they cover their forces at all times.
    The rebels shot down plenty of Ukrainian planes and didn't need to use BUK for any of those engagements.
    why not upgrade to be able to drop planes from further away?
    The rebels didn't control the airspace so why were Ukrainian ATC vectoring aircraft over a warzone... traditionally such things are a no no.
    they assumed there was no threat at such altitudes, & closing those corridors would cost them lost revenue.
    You don't need an IFF system... that aircraft would be transmitting its civilian information to make it appear on ATC radar... the same transmission information  should appear on the BUK system too.
    it should, but a mil. plane can transmit false signals or hide behind a civ. plane, not to mention EW interference from the air/ground.
    And you are assuming they would want to keep a recently captured air defence near the front lines where it would make sense for the Ukraine to try to destroy it considering the threat it represents to civilian and military air traffic.
    they would try to hide/use it sparingly.
    Yeah, they are rebels who want to continue speaking Russian in their own country (Ukraine), they are not terrorists keen to shoot down any aircraft that flys within range.
    as if no1 else ever shot down planes by mistake. It was not a top notch PVO unit operating top of the line latest AD system, mind u.
    I already know it was a false flag operation by the west.
    of course, it neatly fits ur world view.
    Inexperienced crews could assume it was a Ukrainian transport (like those IL-76 & An-26 they dropped before);
    So why just shoot down one plane there were dozens of planes flying through that airspace every day... why not shoot them all down?
    they just got the Buk & it was the 1st plane they were ready to shoot, under wartime duress.
    or the SBU or Western agent planted there could press the button so Russia would be blamed.
    Who cares, this is a crime committed by the west who are murdering their own so they can impose sanctions on Russia...
    I doubt they would risk a scandal after it was proven so. The EU isn't as obsessed with sanctions as the US to do that, by any stretch.
    That Spanish ATC allegedly working in Kiev turned out to be fake & disappeared, along with other theories the Russian propaganda floated.
    The Air Traffic Controller worked for Kiev and did exactly what Kiev wanted and was therefore part of the murder plan...
    no, he was never ATC, just posed as 1 in Russian propaganda.
    Khodorkovsky
    The opinion of convicted criminals does not hold much weight in civilised society.
    the Russian courts r subservient to the Kremlin; those who rule there use the criminal justice system to stay in power while pretending to be civilized. A convicted criminal under 1 regime may turn to be a hero & martyr under a new regime that comes next. Recall Gandhi, Havel, Valesa, & Mandela, to name a few.
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    ALAMO

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    Post  ALAMO Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:12 am

    GarryB wrote:
    There is no evidence of that...

    Why do you ask for "evidence" of something that is obvious?
    I can't get rid of a feeling, that you really have no bloody idea how the SU worked in real.
    We talk a 4+ mln conscripted army.
    Each and any male in all the countries created after the dissolution of SU who is 50+ is skilled military personnel, some of them battle-hardened.
    In 5-6 mln population for both LNR and DNR, there are trained air defence veterans, and that is crystal clear.
    Ukrainian army is a conscript one, too - so in 30 years of its existence, of course, the younger generation was trained to operate systems they have on hands.
    There is really no point in discussing that other than a waste of time.

    GarryB wrote:
    More importantly why did the Ukrainians have air defence missiles of that type there... the rebels had no planes.

    But the Russians did.

    GarryB wrote:
    The rebels shot down plenty of Ukrainian planes and didn't need to use BUK for any of those engagements.

    There is a single claim that Buk was used to down a Mig-29 in 2014, but as it came from Ukr sources only, and the ones associated to maydan brothel, we can take it with a cup of salt.

    GarryB wrote:
    You don't need an IFF system... that aircraft would be transmitting its civilian information to make it appear on ATC radar... the same transmission information  should appear on the BUK system too.

    Not at all, there are simple antennas for directional search and assisting the missile only. For Buk-M1 some new radar algorithms were provided, and in theory, it SHOULD distinguish the civilian target without command post&battery radar assistance, but this is not the case as it was an older missile and system.

    GarryB wrote:
    And you are assuming they would want to keep a recently captured air defence near the front lines where it would make sense for the Ukraine to try to destroy it considering the threat it represents to civilian and military air traffic.

    I assume perfectly nothing, this case is clear to me.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:08 pm

    Driving in and then out a single Buk system just to shoot down a civilian jet takes the cake for retarded propaganda smear.

    I repeat: No military or political (psychological) value from such a stunt.

    But motive is no longer required. It is merely enough to assert "ebil Rosshians" and then do some hand waving about plausibility
    and who could have done what. Note a total lack of any real forensic evidence. The Dutch actually had a fully intact Buk missile
    casing at one of their PR stunts. What sort of retard would sit there and think: hey that's real evidence. How the frell would
    a missile casing remain intact after dropping from a height well over the 1 km (it was being fired at a high zenith target)? Even
    having it fall from 100 meters will pancake it. The frelling casing is a shell and not a solid hunk of metal.

    To preempt the retards: there was no evidence of any damage consistent with pancaking (go ahead an bend some sheet metal
    180 degrees and hammer the bend, and then see what happens when you try to restore it). Why would the Dutch feel the need
    to restore the casing?



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    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:53 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    And you are assuming they would want to keep a recently captured air defence near the front lines where it would make sense for the Ukraine to try to destroy it considering the threat it represents to civilian and military air traffic.

    That makes it possible to shoot and aim, but not check the identity.

    Yeah, they are rebels who want to continue speaking Russian in their own country (Ukraine), they are not terrorists keen to shoot down any aircraft that flys within range.




    you dont get it. Anybody opposing US imposed junta is a terrorist. BTW wasn't guerrillas on Hitler's occupied countries called bandits?




    I already know it was a false flag operation by the west.


    The funny thing is where are all those sat photos form CIA?
    Why Dutch govt only accepts dubious Ukro Junta arguments but Malaysian and Russian ar rejected by default?
    Why Dutch govt made confidential some information about Malysina airliner downing?

    oh enough rhetorical questions. Laughing Laughing Laughing


    There is the only one why after 7 fucking years there was no proof found against Russians or Ukrainian rebels?






    Khodorkovsky

    The opinion of convicted criminals does not hold much weight in civilised society.


    Criminal who ordered to kill couple of people. Not only stole billions. I wont say about what kind of Russian he was. I dotn want to be called anti-Semite.

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    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:27 pm

    A lot of these gangsters from the 1990s were citizens of Israel and moved to hide there. So bringing up their ethnic background
    is fully appropriate. But the point is their clear lack of any characteristics as Russian citizens who would care about Russia
    and not to bring up anti-Semitic talking points. These criminals are not ethnic representatives and proxies.

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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:30 am

    in case the RF VKS got involved- the doctrine requires they cover their forces at all times.

    Bullshit.

    If the RF got involved Kiev would be smoking ruins.

    why not upgrade to be able to drop planes from further away?

    Because planes further away were not the problem.

    they assumed there was no threat at such altitudes, & closing those corridors would cost them lost revenue.

    Bullshit. There own units deployed there could reach those altitudes... and if they actually believed Russia was helping the rebels they would know no altitude would be safe.

    it should, but a mil. plane can transmit false signals or hide behind a civ. plane, not to mention EW interference from the air/ground.

    I doubt the Ukrainian military aircraft could but if that was the case they would still not fire... or do you think they thought there was a Ukrainian plane there and shooting through this civilian plane they might get the Ukrainian plane too?

    Why would there be any ground based EW interference... the Ukraine claimed they used a Russian BUK that came from Russian territory and didn't start claiming that till after British Intel Bellend Cat fabricated evidence claiming such a thing happened, so no EW is likely or possible because as far as they were aware at the time the only operational BUKs in the are were their own... why interfere with their own signals... maybe that is why the Orcs shot the plane down...

    they would try to hide/use it sparingly.

    So why waste a missile on a high flying airliner like target?

    as if no1 else ever shot down planes by mistake. It was not a top notch PVO unit operating top of the line latest AD system, mind u.


    So why waste missiles on every plane that flys past... especially considering that was a corridor being used by hundreds of airliners a week at the time...

    The simple answer is that they would not.



    of course, it neatly fits ur world view.

    It neatly fits their world view.... they know you losers are fucking idiots and will get worked up over any little war crime they fabricate.

    they just got the Buk & it was the 1st plane they were ready to shoot, under wartime duress.

    So they were going to waste a missile on a non threatening target that they had no idea what it was or where it was going... funny that people have been able to go in to that area since to try to investigate and have not be shot on sight by these reckless idiots...

    I doubt they would risk a scandal after it was proven so. The EU isn't as obsessed with sanctions as the US to do that, by any stretch.

    Ironically the whole purpose of these war crimes by the west is to damage Russia but it seems to be making her stronger... how many random people are they prepared to kill till they work out it isn't working?

    no, he was never ATC, just posed as 1 in Russian propaganda.

    The aircraft was directed to be there by an ATC, that is the person I am talking about... you can make any other shit up you like... I guess it helps you sleep at night.

    the Russian courts r subservient to the Kremlin;

    There is no evidence of this. Putin can issue a pardon for anyone he pleases but he is not involved in court cases directly and neither he should be.

    The west on the other hand is the opposite... Trump ordering Canada to arrest a Chinese CEO of a big Chinese company to exert economic and political pressure on China... the US ordering Assange be locked up for being a journalist... tell me that western courts are like western media and are free and independent...

    those who rule there use the criminal justice system to stay in power while pretending to be civilized.

    Those who hold power in Russia were voted in by democratic election... can't really say the same about Biden... or Johnston...

    A convicted criminal under 1 regime may turn to be a hero & martyr under a new regime that comes next. Recall Gandhi, Havel, Valesa, & Mandela, to name a few.

    And many criminals avoid conviction by murdering everyone who will testify like Hilary Clinton and the Bush family.

    Why do you ask for "evidence" of something that is obvious?
    I can't get rid of a feeling, that you really have no bloody idea how the SU worked in real.
    We talk a 4+ mln conscripted army.
    Each and any male in all the countries created after the dissolution of SU who is 50+ is skilled military personnel, some of them battle-hardened.
    In 5-6 mln population for both LNR and DNR, there are trained air defence veterans, and that is crystal clear.
    Ukrainian army is a conscript one, too - so in 30 years of its existence, of course, the younger generation was trained to operate systems they have on hands.
    There is really no point in discussing that other than a waste of time

    Except that they haven't got any BUKs in their armed forces now or in the past, so the claim that a vehicle they don't use was sent from Russia to the region to shoot one missile and then high tail it back to Russia, or the backup claim that this was an Orc BUK that was captured in combat... a medium range SAM unlikely to be any where near any front lines at all, and of all their forces they managed to find some men trained to use it in time to use it immediately, but not so trained to recognise what a fucking airliner is, but then fire one missile and then... what... send it to Russia?

    The Ukraine denied they had any in the area. This lie was proven to be a lie when a video of a Ukrainian BUK of the correct version was shown being driven drunkenly though an urban setting.

    The Ukraine are lying.

    But the Russians did.

    What Russian planes... and how did they not manage to shoot any down?

    There is a single claim that Buk was used to down a Mig-29 in 2014, but as it came from Ukr sources only, and the ones associated to maydan brothel, we can take it with a cup of salt.

    But the Bellend photos show a BUK heading to Russia with one missile missing... did they manage to hit two planes with one missile... wow... these rebels must be truly BUK masters...


    Not at all, there are simple antennas for directional search and assisting the missile only. For Buk-M1 some new radar algorithms were provided, and in theory, it SHOULD distinguish the civilian target without command post&battery radar assistance, but this is not the case as it was an older missile and system.

    So assuming that is true, the system the Ukraine were operating in the area was unable to differentiate between civilian and military aircraft, but they still earned foreign currency herding airliners through like cattle to a slaughter house.

    No explanation about how they capture one TEL but not the rest of the battery and equipment... or how deep the rebel raid must have been to capture such a vehicle which would not normally operate any where near a front line.

    Driving in and then out a single Buk system just to shoot down a civilian jet takes the cake for retarded propaganda smear.

    I repeat: No military or political (psychological) value from such a stunt.

    But if you were dumb enough to do it you would still be smart enough to put a fucking tarp over the TEL so satellites couldn't see what it was...


    you dont get it. Anybody opposing US imposed junta is a terrorist. BTW wasn't guerrillas on Hitler's occupied countries called bandits?

    The various stories they come up with are all full of holes... could care less what labels they use...


    The funny thing is where are all those sat photos form CIA?

    Sat photos.... you mean radar recordings... HATO has radar equipment galore covering the entire area from the Baltic states and eastern europe as well as turkey... but nothing they can show anyone...

    I dotn want to be called anti-Semite.

    Anti Semite used to mean someone who hated Jews, but these days it means someone Israel hates.


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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:00 am

    in case the RF VKS got involved- the doctrine requires they cover their forces at all times.
    Bullshit. If the RF got involved Kiev would be smoking ruins.
    its already involved in a hybrid war; if they sent their tanks, they can send panes to help the rebels. We already discussed that, so pl. don't waste my time dismissing it.
    why not upgrade to be able to drop planes from further away?
    Because planes further away were not the problem.
    I'm sure there was a reason to give them Buk- how about high flying US drones that regularly come there from Sicily?
    they assumed there was no threat at such altitudes, & closing those corridors would cost them lost revenue.
    Bullshit. There own units deployed there could reach those altitudes... and if they actually believed Russia was helping the rebels they would know no altitude would be safe.
    up to that point it didn't escalate to those altitudes- if they knew about the Buk in rebels' hands, those corridors above them would be closed. Why risk a shootdown, lawsuits & intl. condemnation for not doing it, not to mention revenue losses?
    it should, but a mil. plane can transmit false signals or hide behind a civ. plane, not to mention EW interference from the air/ground.
    I doubt the Ukrainian military aircraft could but if that was the case they would still not fire... or do you think they thought there was a Ukrainian plane there and shooting through this civilian plane they might get the Ukrainian plane too?
    the rebels would shoot 1st & ask ?s later, to be safe, as they have no fighters of their own & been bombed by Ukr.AF before, with destruction & loss of civ. lives. An air corridor is more than a few miles wide & planes using it may often deviate every time they r over a given area. The Buk crew could also be new to the area & not aware of the local conditions.
    Why would there be any ground based EW interference... the Ukraine claimed they used a Russian BUK that came from Russian territory and didn't start claiming that till after British Intel Bellend Cat fabricated evidence claiming such a thing happened, so no EW is likely or possible because as far as they were aware at the time the only operational BUKs in the are were their own... why interfere with their own signals... maybe that is why the Orcs shot the plane down...
    their intel could know/suspect it was there; the rebels acted as they felt was necessary & in good faith: "better to be safe than sorry". What evidence is there that the British Intel fabricated it?
    they would try to hide/use it sparingly.
    So why waste a missile on a high flying airliner like target?
    the old Buk didn't cost them anything & big USAF UAVs r worthy targets, as Iran showed.
    as if no1 else ever shot down planes by mistake. It was not a top notch PVO unit operating top of the line latest AD system, mind u.
    So why waste missiles on every plane that flys past... especially considering that was a corridor being used by hundreds of airliners a week at the time...
    no civ. plane was their intended target; it was a mistake they & Russia paid for dearly.
    of course, it neatly fits ur world view.
    It neatly fits their world view.... they know you losers are fucking idiots and will get worked up over any little war crime they fabricate.
    no, in such cases we check & leave no stone unturned, ven if it appears that we been set up. The Russians & rebels r not any smarter, so pl. stop calling names here. How smart was NZ that allowed itself to be used in WWI & II, not to mention wars that followed, instead of declaring neutrality?
    they just got the Buk & it was the 1st plane they were ready to shoot, under wartime duress.
    So they were going to waste a missile on a non threatening target that they had no idea what it was or where it was going...
    they thought it was An-26 as phone/radio intercepts showed, & it tells how professional they r as the type can't fly that high & fast, or their radar wasn't working right.  
    funny that people have been able to go in to that area since to try to investigate and have not be shot on sight by these reckless idiots...
    they r smart enough to cooperate with investigations & not make things worse for themselves & Russia.
    I doubt they would risk a scandal after it was proven so. The EU isn't as obsessed with sanctions as the US to do that, by any stretch.
    Ironically the whole purpose of these war crimes by the west is to damage Russia but it seems to be making her stronger... how many random people are they prepared to kill till they work out it isn't working?
    by then Russia been sanctioned for years, so they knew it's not working, so killing their own people & blame Russia would only backfire on them, & that's why it doesn't make any sense.
    no, he was never ATC, just posed as 1 in Russian propaganda.
    The aircraft was directed to be there by an ATC, that is the person I am talking about...
    like dozens of other planes before, as u said, & immediately after- how far was it's route from the previous track? The Ukr. side could shoot it down 20-30miles away from that spot & still blame it on Russia.
    the Russian courts r subservient to the Kremlin;
    There is no evidence of this. Putin can issue a pardon for anyone he pleases but he is not involved in court cases directly and neither he should be.
    u r delusional.
    The west on the other hand is the opposite... Trump ordering Canada to arrest a Chinese CEO of a big Chinese company to exert economic and political pressure on China... the US ordering Assange be locked up for being a journalist... tell me that western courts are like western media and are free and independent...
    all that doesn't mean that Russia is heaven on Earth.
    those who rule there use the criminal justice system to stay in power while pretending to be civilized.
    Those who hold power in Russia were voted in by democratic election... can't really say the same about Biden... or Johnston...
    after several FSB apartment building explosions & resulting 2nd war in Chechnya which propelled Putin to where he is today. With his new Constitution, he can run for president 2 times more. It's a parody on democracy.
    ..a medium range SAM unlikely to be any where near any front lines at all, and of all their forces they managed to find some men trained to use it in time to use it immediately, but not so trained to recognise what a fucking airliner is, but then fire one missile and then... what... send it to Russia?
    the area is small, so the frontline isn't too far from anywhere there; who knows, may be they were drunk on that day & didn't pay attention; after the accident, they tried to hide the fact that Buk was there.
    No explanation about how they capture one TEL but not the rest of the battery and equipment... or how deep the rebel raid must have been to capture such a vehicle which would not normally operate any where near a front line.
    I suspect they got it from Russia but declared it was captured from the Ukr. side.
    But if you were dumb enough to do it you would still be smart enough to put a fucking tarp over the TEL so satellites couldn't see what it was...
    They could be in a hurry & with no tarp at hand. Since they in the West can figure out what's inside boxes unloaded from planes & ships, from their dimensions alone, a tarp won't help- it's only good to hide things from the ground observers.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:33 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : add text)
    kvs
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    Post  kvs Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:54 pm

    Hand waving plausibility arguments from TL based on his foaming at the mouth hate for Russians.

    One moronic claim after another (e.g. Russian airforce operating in the Donbass) which raises even more
    contradictions. But more hand waving and fantasy spew will fill in the gap.



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    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:39 pm

    It would be moronic if Ukrainians assumed that there isn't going to be  Russian SF, etc. & AF operating in & around rebel held Donbass.
    I have no deep hate nor great love for the Russians- they gave me my 1st language & many other good & bad experiences.

    There are many parties, but one homeland. Analytical videos of what is happening in the country. https://youtu.be/rqB9tDIcTw0
    https://youtu.be/xk-ZytslXpo

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54478319


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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Mon Sep 06, 2021 6:53 am

    its already involved in a hybrid war; if they sent their tanks, they can send panes to help the rebels. We already discussed that, so pl. don't waste my time dismissing it.

    No. You are claiming they sent a single BUK vehicle... That would be stupid because it is designed and intended to operate as a battery... a single BUK vehicle has a tracking radar and EO targeting but no search radar so finding targets would be a total pain in the ass because there is no search radar to tell the vehicle where to look so it would essentially have to look using its EO system, which on that model was non existent if I remember correctly... this is the SA-11... it is not SA-17.

    And what planes have they sent to support the rebels... I am pretty sure the Ukraine would have loved for that to happen because they could then use their BUKs to shoot such planes down... like they did with this airliner.

    I'm sure there was a reason to give them Buk- how about high flying US drones that regularly come there from Sicily?

    The Americans have more drones than BUK has missiles.

    That version of BUK would be useless against a high flying drone unless it had a search radar operating with it and there are no claims it did.

    up to that point it didn't escalate to those altitudes- if they knew about the Buk in rebels' hands, those corridors above them would be closed.

    They would know because of the amazing rebel operation deep into Ukrainian territory to capture one... surely...

    Why risk a shootdown, lawsuits & intl. condemnation for not doing it, not to mention revenue losses?

    Which begs the question why they had them there in the first place.... perhaps we will find a set of papers left at a british phone box that detail how UK intelligence thought it might be a good idea to shoot down a plane with foreigners in it to stir up the western world with a nice crime they can blame Russia for.

    Wouldn't be the first time.

    Polonium, novachok, Buk... athlete doping syndicate bullshit.

    the rebels would shoot 1st & ask ?s later, to be safe

    Bullshit. There were dozens of planes flying over that airspace every day... that plane was no surprise.

    So far the word of the Ukraine has been bullshit, and it is them making all these accusations...

    as they have no fighters of their own & been bombed by Ukr.

    By that stage the Orcs had stopped bombing because they had lost too many aircraft, they limited themselves to shelling... for which a BUK TEL is useless.

    The Buk crew could also be new to the area & not aware of the local conditions.

    The Ukrainian BUK crew might have made a mistake which Kiev and London and Paris and Berlin and Brussels might have wanted to capitalise on which is why the story was so pathetic and fragmented.

    A bit like the Novachok case in the UK... clearly a bungled attack by western security clumsily blamed on the Russians.

    What evidence is there that the British Intel fabricated it?

    Bellingcat is staffed by former British intel officers and its funded by the British government to do things the British don't want to be officially seen to be doing.... like getting dirt on Jeremy Corbin and creating anti Russian feeling at every opportunity.

    the old Buk didn't cost them anything & big USAF UAVs r worthy targets, as Iran showed.

    They only have four missiles on one TEL and once it is revealed they have it the Americans and Ukrainians and EU will try to hunt it down and neutralise it as quickly as possible.

    One TEL on its own would be useless against high flying drones.

    A newer model like the SA-17 or SA-25 would be excellent but that old model... nope.

    no civ. plane was their intended target; it was a mistake they & Russia paid for dearly.

    Russia does not realise it but it was the best thing to happen to Russia for quite a while.

    The EU sanctions means Russia was able to ban EU food exports to Russia which gave the Russian food industry a chance to grow and develop without the fierce competition from established growers in the EU who already dominate their own market and wanted to flood the Russian market.

    As you might have read in the agricultural thread desperate EU companies have had to open farms and production in Russia to bypass the laws which is even better...

    I would say the only losers were the EU apple growers and their like who were making really good money till they lost the Russian market...

    no, in such cases we check & leave no stone unturned,

    You are not leaving no stone unturned... you aren't even looking down... you are taking what the west tells you and wagging your finger at these Ukrainians for being so naughty when it was Kievs Ukrainian Nazis that shot that plane down... and they get to be part of the investigation so they can destroy evidence and murder witnesses and generally tell lies.

    they thought it was An-26 as phone/radio intercepts showed

    Those intercepts were proven to be fabricated after the event.... just like Bell Ends photos of a BUK TEL sneaking back to Russia... with one missile missing...  Rolling Eyes

    & it tells how professional they r as the type can't fly that high & fast, or their radar wasn't working right.  

    Yeah, unprofessional idiots that kicked the arses of the Orcs for how long now? So the Orcs now resort to long range shelling instead of actual combat... if you want to know how professional the rebels are that alone tells you all you need to know.

    they r smart enough to cooperate with investigations & not make things worse for themselves & Russia.

    Make it worse? The west is the enemy, they are not looking for real evidence, they want something they can use to convict Putin personally of doing this...

    by then Russia been sanctioned for years, so they knew it's not working, so killing their own people & blame Russia would only backfire on them, & that's why it doesn't make any sense.

    Sanctions don't make sense... when they block Russia from accessing their products they force Russia to produce their own... and they take their time and use state of the art production equipment and modern methods to produce replacements that are often better than what they were buying from the west.... Which they can then sell to the rest of the world in competition to the western crap they bought before.

    Sanctions means western companies lose a large customer, but in a couple of years will have to compete with a much cheaper product from Russia that might be adapted to Russian conditions which means it is probably better too and it will certainly be cheaper as well.

    Sanctions never work but the people who apply them think they just weren't hard enough so next time they are slightly harder... but as they are applied they simply make Russia stronger by making her independent and also make her look to other places for trade and commerce... so you push them away... make them stronger... and weaken your own companies who lose good customers that paid their bills on time...

    like dozens of other planes before, as u said, & immediately after- how far was it's route from the previous track? The Ukr. side could shoot it down 20-30miles away from that spot & still blame it on Russia.

    Russia was always going to get the blame.... it just happened to be there that it happened.

    u r delusional.

    No, you are right... the reason Russia is so fucked up and backward is because Putin spends all his time watching court cases and making decisions because he is actually the only judge in Russia allowed to make any decisions that are binding. That is why Russia has a 24 trillion dollar debt and spend 800 billion a year on a bloated military that is bloody useless and does not protect Afghan women from Afghan men...

    all that doesn't mean that Russia is heaven on Earth.

    There is no such thing. The countries with the best standard of living stole it from someone else...

       

    after several FSB apartment building explosions & resulting 2nd war in Chechnya which propelled Putin to where he is today. With his new Constitution, he can run for president 2 times more. It's a parody on democracy.

    Putin was voted into power each time in a democratic election, the old constitution was written by fucking idiots who don't know what democracy is... in the US the two political parties are not choices because as we have seen... Obama and Trump and Biden and Clinton and the Bushes... they are all the same and have no real control of the country anyway... Trump went into power saying better relations with Russia and bringing home American troops from shitholes where America has no business in being there... but presidents don't command presidents don't rule.... it is the super rich in the west that dictate what is going to happen and you can't vote them out... there is no election for those assholes.

    Bill Clinton was a common slut that couldn't keep his cock out of the women around him... if he was a woman there would be national condemnation and she would be called all sorts of terrible things like slut and whore, but because he is a man there is quiet admiration from most Americans... besides the economy was going well so who cares what he does?

    Well guess what... the economy in Russia has been going just fine, so Putin gets re-elected... that IS democracy... the people voting for the best man for the job.

    the area is small, so the frontline isn't too far from anywhere there; who knows, may be they were drunk on that day & didn't pay attention; after the accident, they tried to hide the fact that Buk was there.

    Why make up shitty excuses that should pathetic and made up when the obvious questions are not answered or proven... there is no evidence the rebels did this, there is no evidence the rebels could have done this, there is clear evidence the Orcs had this model missile in the area the plane was shot down at the time it was shot down.... If the rebels captured one vehicle that means the Orcs still have five other TELs in the area.

    The US lost all its radar recordings for that airspace for that time period... they lost them.... sounds like that video material from that Intruder aircraft that killed those people in that cable car... the radar signal from the BUK launch obviously came from an ORC BUK battery in ORC territory so once that was verified it was marked as lost and then destroyed.

    I suspect they got it from Russia but declared it was captured from the Ukr. side.

    Russia does not have these missiles in service.

    They could be in a hurry & with no tarp at hand. Since they in the West can figure out what's inside boxes unloaded from planes & ships, from their dimensions alone, a tarp won't help- it's only good to hide things from the ground observers.

    They have camouflaged covers for all sorts of equipment but they didn't have time to put any on. The west lost the radar tapes of the area at the time... there was no Russia BUK to camouflage and teh ORC BUK that shot the plane down didn't even enter rebel territory... Occams Razor... the simplest answer that explains everything is usually the most likely answer.

    It would be moronic if Ukrainians assumed that there isn't going to be  Russian SF, etc. & AF operating in & around rebel held Donbass.

    That is very true, but why did they shoot down a civilian airliner and try to blame the rebels and Russia or that?

    Analytical videos of what is happening in the country.

    This shit is going to split it up even further...

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    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

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    Anti-Putin Discussion - Page 10 Empty Re: Anti-Putin Discussion

    Post  Tsavo Lion Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:34 am

    No. You are claiming they sent a single BUK vehicle... That would be stupid because it is designed and intended to operate as a battery... a single BUK vehicle has a tracking radar and EO targeting but no search radar so finding targets would be a total pain in the ass because there is no search radar to tell the vehicle where to look so it would essentially have to look using its EO system, which on that model was non existent if I remember correctly... this is the SA-11... it is not SA-17.
    they may have radars or Russia could use her radars to help them.
    And what planes have they sent to support the rebels...
    any military worth its salt covers its ass, just in case. Ukr. dropped a few Russian UAVs already.
    I'm sure there was a reason to give them Buk- how about high flying US drones that regularly come there from Sicily?
    The Americans have more drones than BUK has missiles.
    That version of BUK would be useless against a high flying drone unless it had a search radar operating with it and there are no claims it did.
    what if they were going to supply more Buks out of storage?

    up to that point it didn't escalate to those altitudes- if they knew about the Buk in rebels' hands, those corridors above them would be closed.
    They would know because of the amazing rebel operation deep into Ukrainian territory to capture one... surely...
    then, they just assumed that rebels' Buk couldn't target airliners w/o a radar &/ they weren't so stupid to drop 1 by mistake, since the Russians wouldn't allow it. There r to many variables involved- we'll never know everything that preceded the event.
    Which begs the question why they had them there in the first place....
    if nothing else, to be able to drop more IL-76s & other transports still in Ukr. airspace & blame it on Ukr. friendly fire.
    Bullshit. There were dozens of planes flying over that airspace every day... that plane was no surprise.
    when u have a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Even US F-15 pilots dropped 2 friendly helos over Iraq thinking they were Iraqi Mi-24s, w/o verifying it, besides the USN shootdown of the Iranian Airbus in the Gulf.  
    The Ukrainian BUK crew might have made a mistake which Kiev and London and Paris and Berlin and Brussels might have wanted to capitalise on which is why the story was so pathetic and fragmented.
    if so, the Russians wouldn't bother with so many theories they floated for their propaganda to disseminate.

    Bellingcat is staffed by former British intel officers and its funded by the British government to do things the British don't want to be officially seen to be doing....
    that proves nothing; those folks can investigate as well as private investigators, if not better.

    They only have four missiles on one TEL and once it is revealed they have it the Americans and Ukrainians and EU will try to hunt it down and neutralise it as quickly as possible.
    only if the Russians allowed them to.
    One TEL on its own would be useless against high flying drones.
    they can have dozens of missiles & use only 1 TEL;
    if it could drop a B-777, how a big & slower UAV is going to survive?
    ..it was Kievs Ukrainian Nazis that shot that plane down...
    I doubt they r that dumb to do it; it was proven that the missile wasn't launched from the Ukr. held area- as the clips I posted mentioned.
    Those intercepts were proven to be fabricated after the event....
    by interested parties; the rebels got so high on their success in dropping Ukr. planes & helos that they were growing complacent & reckless.
    Sanctions never work but the people who apply them think they just weren't hard enough so next time they are slightly harder...
    the US, etc. didn't really need that plane to be dropped there to impose new sanctions- they have no problem finding an excuse, as history showed.
    .
    .the reason Russia is so fucked up and backward is because Putin spends all his time watching court cases and making decisions because he is actually the only judge in Russia allowed to make any decisions that are binding.
    he can always say to his prosecutors "deal with them so they r not a threat, even if u have to put them away for life".

    all that doesn't mean that Russia is heaven on Earth.
    There is no such thing. The countries with the best standard of living stole it from someone else...
    the elites & oligarchs there with the best standard of living stole it from Ms of less fortunate Russians under Putin's rule which is their de-facto protege.
    Putin was voted into power each time in a democratic election, the old constitution was written by fucking idiots who don't know what democracy is...
    it was fake election, & the old constitution suited him well until he ditched at the right moment to prolong his rule beyond max. 2 terms.
    Well guess what... the economy in Russia has been going just fine, so Putin gets re-elected... that IS democracy... the people voting for the best man for the job.
    the economy in Russia got worse over the years & could be a lot better; he had/has many supporters but as many, if not more, non-supporters/opposers.
    ..there is no evidence the rebels did this, there is no evidence the rebels could have done this, there is clear evidence the Orcs had this model missile in the area the plane was shot down at the time it was shot down.... If the rebels captured one vehicle that means the Orcs still have five other TELs in the area.
    perhaps it was their false flag to blame it on the Ukr side. Besides, they may have many Buks hidden, while the Ukr. Buks # & locations there at the time isn't certain. U chose to trust sources  that exonerate rebels/Russia, but what is the real evidence, & who has it?  
    The US lost all its radar recordings for that airspace for that time period... they lost them....
    that's what they said, but don't take their word for it- they'll find & reveal relevant recordings at the right time for max. benefit.
    I suspect they got it from Russia but declared it was captured from the Ukr. side.
    Russia does not have these missiles in service.
    they store older systems for years to aid in any future war effort or transfer/sell them to others.
    there was no Russia BUK to camouflage and teh ORC BUK that shot the plane down didn't even enter rebel territory... Occams Razor... the simplest answer that explains everything is usually the most likely answer.
    to me, the simplest answer is Russian & rebels sloppiness & lack of training, working equipment & discipline.  
    It could be that the Buk was launched from Russia, & the TEL was brought in & out to create an alibi or frame the rebels.
    That is very true, but why did they shoot down a civilian airliner and try to blame the rebels and Russia or that?
    for the sceptics, it remains to be seen who really did it & why.

    Historian of All Russia. Why Putin is inventing the past
    https://youtu.be/MqpkqXQgo20


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Tue Sep 07, 2021 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add text, link)
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    Vann7

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    Anti-Putin Discussion - Page 10 Empty temporary anti putin thread

    Post  Vann7 Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:13 am

    miketheterrible wrote:I myself am interested in 3D chip designs. I know Russia was doing research in this a decade ago.


    dude , you are very delusional , if you think ,Russia semiconductor program will ever get remotely
    close to the developed world.  Russia don't design computers ,neither manufacture computers , They take designs already done by the anglo west , and modify them ,and manufacture them in taiwan.

    to claims that "is not important" to build ,your own technology , because most don't do it , shows ,
    how incredibly delusional you are.  Did you know that americans can block Russia entire semiconductor program  ? by telling Taiwan , to not work with Russia , that will be enough to leave Russia in the stone age ,and forced to buy chinese computers for their military. because they suck so much in doing this Laughing  

    Thanks , to putin ,  Russia is a third world gas station economy , and the few thousands of semiconductors that they manage to produce ,with the help of anglo west tech and taiwan manufacturing , is just a few thousands ,for the military and scienctist research.   Putin is an stupid idiot , that wasted 20 years of his life , developing russia economy ,in the same way third world nations in africa do it.. commodities third world countries economies do it.  and they are not going to magically end their dependence in american ,british and their allies in taiwan ,no matter how much putin hopes for it.

    russia is so outdated , that their first smart phone , the yotaphone ,was not even build in russia the technology ,it was all from europe and they mostly assemble the tech and sold it as "Russian" , but there were next to nothing to brag about it.  Russia is an outdated nation ,with an outdated government , and is only wishful thinking to believe there is anything russia can feel proud about high tech... Even findland a nation with just 4 million people is more advanced than Russia in semiconductors and electronics.  

    If Putin requested their scientist to build a computer ,with 100% russian intellectual property ,
    the best he will do a mechanical computer of the 50's , that don't use semiconductors ,but extremely obsolete tech , from more than 70 years ago.  Only a handful of nations are semiconductors powers ,who lead the world in human and business development , and russia is not even remotely close to any list , in any place , because the idiot in chief president of russia , have been developing the nation economy ,in the most laziest , and most outdated way possible. in the same way ,that losers do it.  with gas stations monopolies just like saudi arabia and middle east .

    russia only challenge the western business and allies ,with rockets and bombs and military hardware.. and nothing else . Because not even in space ,the shitty stupid president is doing anything. maybe with the communist party in power ,we could see a return to the ambitious russia and not the sorry nation than Russia today is ,that most of the world disrespect.

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