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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Singular_Transform
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Aug 16, 2020 1:00 am

    hoom wrote:
    Alternatively, they might be preparing to launch the Kharbarovsk?
    As I understand it Khabarovsk is in the shed to the right in Singular_Transforms pic -> Nakhimov has to be out of the way.

    That hall has two door, the Khabarovsk most likelly is behind the non blocked door.


    Means the flood of basin means interesting things.

    Actually, the old workshop can make 320 meters long objects, the new one can make 220 meters long objects.

    Due to the length of the floating dock.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:18 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:
    owais.usmani wrote:Khabarovsk is probably being built in shop 42:

    https://sevmash.livejournal.com/169940.html

    The slipway of that shop is too short, only 120 meters long.

    The Belgorod is 180 meters long.

    This isn't about Belgorod (whose length is attributable to the addition of a module to support operations with the Losharik).  Khabarovsk won't be anywhere near as long.

    That said, I don't think Kharbarovsk is being built in shop 42.
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    Post  hoom on Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:40 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 26 Adm_bm10
    This is the area from May.
    Poking around on Google Earth I think they're probably launching the big blocks above Nakhimov.
    There's the red one (~90m *26m) & 6* similar height square blocks that started appearing (presumably out of the shop to right) in May 2018 & 2nd, taller big block appeared between June 2019 & May 2020.

    What are they?
    It looks like bits of a big semi-submersible something.
    Probably some kind of oil infrastructure but wouldn't it be interesting if they've been quietly building a big new floating dock?
    There would need to be another 10 or 11 more of the red block to make a base for a big floating dock.
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:55 am

    Singular_Transform wrote:Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 26 Adm_bm10
    This is the area from May.
    Pic from HI Suttons article, from a week ago. basin flooding is in progress, but incomplete at this time.  Not a lot of change on the vessel, but the crane has withdrawn and the access ramps and construction village to the south look to be gone.

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 26 960x0
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    Post  Singular_Transform on Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:38 pm

    hoom wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 26 Adm_bm10
    This is the area from May.
    Poking around on Google Earth I think they're probably launching the big blocks above Nakhimov.
    There's the red one (~90m *26m) & 6* similar height square blocks that started appearing (presumably out of the shop to right) in May 2018 & 2nd, taller big block appeared between June 2019 & May 2020.

    What are they?
    It looks like bits of a big semi-submersible something.
    Probably some kind of oil infrastructure but wouldn't it be interesting if they've been quietly building a big new floating dock?
    There would need to be another 10 or 11 more of the red block to make a base for a big floating dock.

    That is a floating dock to float out objects from the old shop.

    It is quite small, only 80 meters long.

    Half as long as the main floating dock/barge.


    But the floating dock used to moce out the Yassens/Boreis from the main shop can't be used on the old dock, it is too tall , and its rails are above the old shop floor level even if it is laying on the bottom of the basin.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:33 am

    New Cannon?

    Wonder if it is a 152mm gun... ???

    They said there were naval 152mms on the way.... but did they mean on cruisers and destroyers, or were they meaning as just a replacement for the coastal truck mounted Bereg 130mm gun system.

    The new 152mm weapons have bigger shells (HE are about 33kg and 43kgs respectively for 130mm and 152mm) and much better range (70km for standard shells and talk of 170km rounds that perhaps might have ramjet or scramjet boosters or might be reduced size rounds.... compared with about 30km range for the 130mm guns)

    I presume the Army will be developing a range of new rounds for the gun, and the Navy could do the same... for instance a nose mounted set of fins that are used in the air for guidance and in the water to guide a shaped charge towards a sonar contact like a guided depth charge... (note they already have kits to attach to standard bombs so they can be used as guided depthcharges and mines...)

    Later a 203mm gun could be even more flexible....
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    Post  marat on Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:41 pm

    most likely AK 192 single 130mm gun same as in Gorshkov. But we will see.
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    Post  william.boutros on Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:49 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Singular_Transform wrote:Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 26 Adm_bm10
    This is the area from May.
    Pic from HI Suttons article, from a week ago. basin flooding is in progress, but incomplete at this time.  Not a lot of change on the vessel, but the crane has withdrawn and the access ramps and construction village to the south look to be gone.

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 26 960x0

    Kirov is a 25,000 ton project and yet it only carries 174 missiles whereas US destroyers carry 122 missiles for 9,000 ton displacement. Why is that?


    Last edited by william.boutros on Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  Isos on Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:02 pm

    They can quad-pack smaller missiles instead of bigger ones. 9M96 will be the main AA missile IMO and they can carry 4 insead of 1 48N6.

    The disadvantage of upgrading a ship with new VLS is that the ship wasn't made for them. You can just replace them. You need to do the engineering to see how the ship will handle the weight changes but also size changes.

    A modern cruiser the size of Kirov can carry much more VLS than the upgraded Kirov.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Aug 17, 2020 6:20 pm

    The S-300 rotary launcher seems to be still on the ship. UKSK replaced only Granit launchers.
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    Post  LMFS on Mon Aug 17, 2020 7:39 pm

    Isos wrote:The S-300 rotary launcher seems to be still on the ship. UKSK replaced only Granit launchers.

    It makes a lot of sense, if you place from 40N6 to 9M96 missiles on them you get a massive AD capabity
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    Post  Hole on Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:23 pm

    Burkes can carry 96 missiles
    Ticonderogas 122

    Nakhimov carries 80 cruise missiles, 96 long-range AD missiles and 320 short-rang AD missiles = 496 missiles in total.

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    Post  walle83 on Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:48 pm

    Hole wrote:Burkes can carry 96 missiles
    Ticonderogas 122

    Nakhimov carries 80 cruise missiles, 96 long-range AD missiles and 320 short-rang AD missiles = 496 missiles in total.

    Burkes and Tics have 96 and 122 vls cells, doesnt mean they cant have more missiles then that.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Aug 17, 2020 10:59 pm

    Hole wrote:Burkes can carry 96 missiles
    Ticonderogas 122

    Nakhimov carries 80 cruise missiles, 96 long-range AD missiles and 320 short-rang AD missiles = 496 missiles in total.

    Which short range missiles ? Tor was not fitted on all of them I think.

    Anyway number of missiles isn't the only important factor. The number of targets engaged at the same time is also important. The S-300 radar can engage just one side at a time (no 4 face arrays).

    Nakhimov and Kirov in general have 2 s-300 on them and enough other systems. But Slava are more limited because they have only one S-300 radar and 2 Osa system which aren't the best system Russia can use on a ship even back when it was build.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:58 am

    william.boutros wrote:
    Kirov is a 25,000 ton project and yet it only carries 174 missiles whereas US destroyers carry 122 missiles for 9,000 ton displacement. Why is that?
    Numbers are wrong.
    Unmodernised PtG has:
    20* Granit
    96* S-300
    64* Kinzhal (old naval Tor, space for 128 but only half installed)
    192* Kashtan missiles
    372 total. (+64 if had full Kinzhal load)

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    Post  william.boutros on Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:58 am

    hoom wrote:
    william.boutros wrote:
    Kirov is a 25,000 ton project and yet it only carries 174 missiles whereas US destroyers carry 122 missiles for 9,000 ton displacement. Why is that?
    Numbers are wrong.
    Unmodernised PtG has:
    20* Granit
    96* S-300
    64* Kinzhal (old naval Tor, space for 128 but only half installed)
    192* Kashtan missiles
    372 total. (+64 if had full Kinzhal load)

    Please don't count Kashtan Missiles. These are very short range missiles.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:01 am

    Anyway number of missiles isn't the only important factor. The number of targets engaged at the same time is also important. The S-300 radar can engage just one side at a time (no 4 face arrays).
    Same goes for Ticonderogas & Burkes.
    Ticos have 4* engagement radars, 2 each forward & aft with max 3 able to overlap fields and only over pretty narrow arc.
    Burkes have 1 forward, 2 aft.
    If I recall correctly they can do terminal guidance on 2 targets with 2 missiles each within a fairly narrow angle.

    I did the numbers of simultaneous engaged targets & re-engagement times (from what public info I could find on relevant systems & assuming they all actually function as described/all are working/target designation is up to scratch) up-thread or in the PtG thread a while back.

    The number of Western style subsonic missiles that can be terminal guided with PtGs layered defense in the time from breaking horizon to 0 range is phenomenal, from recollection it can handle something like 3 waves of 60 missiles before running out of missiles & not including any contribution from the twin 130mm & 6* twin 30mm guns.
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    Post  hoom on Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:17 am

    william.boutros wrote:Please don't count Kashtan Missiles. These are very short range missiles.
    Why not?
    Are incoming anti-ship missiles going to teleport the last 8km? (edit: 10km if Kashtan-M) Suspect
    If 8km is too short then unmodified UK Type 23s have no SAMs since 10km Seawolf doesn't count, neither do RAM on US ships.

    On upgraded Nakhimov these will be replaced by proven 20km range missiles with 40km upgrade in the works which puts them in same range class as ESSM.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door on Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:11 pm

    The Kashtan missiles count towards the defensive missile armament of the ship when it is engaged with missiles. Why not count them?

    You could say that they would be ineffective against the aircraft of a competent enemy ,but last time I checked all but the very longest ranged AA missiles of western navies were outranged by even the shorter ranged Russian airborne ASHMs and all are outranged by KH-32, Kinzhal and Zirkon, so should we ignore the majority of these ships missiles because of this?

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    Post  ult on Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:25 pm

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    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:28 am

    Wow, she (he) really sits high with all those floatation aids installed...

    Good to see the Nahkimov out of the basin. thumbsup
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    Post  mnztr on Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:35 am

    why do they need the flotation aids? Does this mean the hull is not yet completed and she will be going back in to drydock?
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    Post  LMFS on Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:24 am

    mnztr wrote:why do they need the flotation aids? Does this mean the hull is not yet completed and she will be going back in to drydock?

    Maybe the basin is swallow for such a big vessel and they need to reduce the draft...
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:07 am

    most likely AK 192 single 130mm gun same as in Gorshkov. But we will see.

    Why put the gun of a frigate on a cruiser?

    Kirov is a 25,000 ton project and yet it only carries 174 missiles whereas US destroyers carry 122 missiles for 9,000 ton displacement. Why is that?

    The Kirov was the first ship to use vertically launched missiles, but the design of the vertical launch systems was different from western navies... they used rotary launchers that might have one hatch for 12 missiles on a rotary launcher system. The space underneath the launcher is huge and the missiles are not packed very efficiently because each missile in the rotary launcher had to be able to be accessed directly under deck.

    Replacing those rotary deck launchers (used for S-300F Rif and Rif-M missiles and also the TOR missiles) would dramatically increase the number of missiles that can be carried.

    Also the Russian missiles are significantly larger than western missiles... the 20 Granit missiles for instance are huge 7.5 ton supersonic long range anti ship missiles that the west really has nothing comparable to at all. In the upgrade these 20 launch tubes are being replaced with 80 launch tubes for a variety of missiles including Onyx which is a 2.5 ton missile with longer range and higher flight speed.

    The 96 Rif type missiles could be replaced directly by four times that number of land based 9M96 missiles, which would mean 384 x 150km and 60km range active radar homing shorter ranged air defence missiles.

    The main problem is that they have been focusing on smaller ships and Redut missiles rather than bigger longer ranged missiles.

    Before they started upgrading the Kirovs there was no need to developed missile launchers for missiles bigger than the bigger 9M96 because corvettes and frigates don't need to engage targets beyond 150km in range and wont be needed to defend other surface ships except as part of a unified air defence.

    The real problem is that they have not spent a huge amount of money on the Kirov upgrades... presumably because they are intended as stopgaps and eventually the new cruisers they will build to replace them will need to carry new weapons that might not fit existing launchers... like a naval S-500 missile for example.

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    Post  hoom on Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:40 am

    Happy to be shown wrong & Nakhimov be coming out bounce
    Still clearly plenty of work to go.
    I wonder when we might get some clarity on what the final armament will be?

    why do they need the flotation aids?
    I think needed to get it up onto the shelf where they do the actual work.
    They had similar pontoons at least on the back for conversion of Vikramaditya
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