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103 posters

    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

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    william.boutros


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    Post  william.boutros Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:58 am

    hoom wrote:
    william.boutros wrote:
    Kirov is a 25,000 ton project and yet it only carries 174 missiles whereas US destroyers carry 122 missiles for 9,000 ton displacement. Why is that?
    Numbers are wrong.
    Unmodernised PtG has:
    20* Granit
    96* S-300
    64* Kinzhal (old naval Tor, space for 128 but only half installed)
    192* Kashtan missiles
    372 total. (+64 if had full Kinzhal load)

    Please don't count Kashtan Missiles. These are very short range missiles.
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    Post  hoom Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:01 am

    Anyway number of missiles isn't the only important factor. The number of targets engaged at the same time is also important. The S-300 radar can engage just one side at a time (no 4 face arrays).
    Same goes for Ticonderogas & Burkes.
    Ticos have 4* engagement radars, 2 each forward & aft with max 3 able to overlap fields and only over pretty narrow arc.
    Burkes have 1 forward, 2 aft.
    If I recall correctly they can do terminal guidance on 2 targets with 2 missiles each within a fairly narrow angle.

    I did the numbers of simultaneous engaged targets & re-engagement times (from what public info I could find on relevant systems & assuming they all actually function as described/all are working/target designation is up to scratch) up-thread or in the PtG thread a while back.

    The number of Western style subsonic missiles that can be terminal guided with PtGs layered defense in the time from breaking horizon to 0 range is phenomenal, from recollection it can handle something like 3 waves of 60 missiles before running out of missiles & not including any contribution from the twin 130mm & 6* twin 30mm guns.
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    Post  hoom Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:17 am

    william.boutros wrote:Please don't count Kashtan Missiles. These are very short range missiles.
    Why not?
    Are incoming anti-ship missiles going to teleport the last 8km? (edit: 10km if Kashtan-M) Suspect
    If 8km is too short then unmodified UK Type 23s have no SAMs since 10km Seawolf doesn't count, neither do RAM on US ships.

    On upgraded Nakhimov these will be replaced by proven 20km range missiles with 40km upgrade in the works which puts them in same range class as ESSM.

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    Post  The-thing-next-door Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:11 pm

    The Kashtan missiles count towards the defensive missile armament of the ship when it is engaged with missiles. Why not count them?

    You could say that they would be ineffective against the aircraft of a competent enemy ,but last time I checked all but the very longest ranged AA missiles of western navies were outranged by even the shorter ranged Russian airborne ASHMs and all are outranged by KH-32, Kinzhal and Zirkon, so should we ignore the majority of these ships missiles because of this?

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    Post  ult Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:25 pm

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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:28 am

    Wow, she (he) really sits high with all those floatation aids installed...

    Good to see the Nahkimov out of the basin. thumbsup
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    Post  mnztr Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:35 am

    why do they need the flotation aids? Does this mean the hull is not yet completed and she will be going back in to drydock?
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    Post  LMFS Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:24 am

    mnztr wrote:why do they need the flotation aids? Does this mean the hull is not yet completed and she will be going back in to drydock?

    Maybe the basin is swallow for such a big vessel and they need to reduce the draft...
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    Post  GarryB Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:07 am

    most likely AK 192 single 130mm gun same as in Gorshkov. But we will see.

    Why put the gun of a frigate on a cruiser?

    Kirov is a 25,000 ton project and yet it only carries 174 missiles whereas US destroyers carry 122 missiles for 9,000 ton displacement. Why is that?

    The Kirov was the first ship to use vertically launched missiles, but the design of the vertical launch systems was different from western navies... they used rotary launchers that might have one hatch for 12 missiles on a rotary launcher system. The space underneath the launcher is huge and the missiles are not packed very efficiently because each missile in the rotary launcher had to be able to be accessed directly under deck.

    Replacing those rotary deck launchers (used for S-300F Rif and Rif-M missiles and also the TOR missiles) would dramatically increase the number of missiles that can be carried.

    Also the Russian missiles are significantly larger than western missiles... the 20 Granit missiles for instance are huge 7.5 ton supersonic long range anti ship missiles that the west really has nothing comparable to at all. In the upgrade these 20 launch tubes are being replaced with 80 launch tubes for a variety of missiles including Onyx which is a 2.5 ton missile with longer range and higher flight speed.

    The 96 Rif type missiles could be replaced directly by four times that number of land based 9M96 missiles, which would mean 384 x 150km and 60km range active radar homing shorter ranged air defence missiles.

    The main problem is that they have been focusing on smaller ships and Redut missiles rather than bigger longer ranged missiles.

    Before they started upgrading the Kirovs there was no need to developed missile launchers for missiles bigger than the bigger 9M96 because corvettes and frigates don't need to engage targets beyond 150km in range and wont be needed to defend other surface ships except as part of a unified air defence.

    The real problem is that they have not spent a huge amount of money on the Kirov upgrades... presumably because they are intended as stopgaps and eventually the new cruisers they will build to replace them will need to carry new weapons that might not fit existing launchers... like a naval S-500 missile for example.

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    Post  hoom Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:40 am

    Happy to be shown wrong & Nakhimov be coming out bounce
    Still clearly plenty of work to go.
    I wonder when we might get some clarity on what the final armament will be?

    why do they need the flotation aids?
    I think needed to get it up onto the shelf where they do the actual work.
    They had similar pontoons at least on the back for conversion of Vikramaditya
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    Post  marat Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:28 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    most likely AK 192 single 130mm gun same as in Gorshkov. But we will see.

    Why put the gun of a frigate on a cruiser?


    Because that is biggest and the most modern gun they have. They do not have new 152 or 203 naval guns designs, or at least not in mature stage.
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    Post  Big_Gazza Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:23 pm

    marat wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    most likely AK 192 single 130mm gun same as in Gorshkov. But we will see.

    Why put the gun of a frigate on a cruiser?


    Because that is biggest and the most modern gun they have. They do not have new 152 or 203 naval guns designs, or at least not in mature stage.

    Don't they? How do you know?  AFAIK we didn't see the A-192M publicly until one was bolted onto the Adm Gorshkov.  I won't be surprised at all to see them fit out with a navalised version of the 2S35.
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    Post  magnumcromagnon Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:29 pm

    marat wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    most likely AK 192 single 130mm gun same as in Gorshkov. But we will see.

    Why put the gun of a frigate on a cruiser?


    Because that is biggest and the most modern gun they have. They do not have new 152 or 203 naval guns designs, or at least not in mature stage.

    Koalitsya is a unmanned module, they could just do what they did with the Tor module on the helicopter deck of a frigate some time back. Just add a containerized command post to control it, throw a thick rubber mat (like a meter thick) on top of helicopter pad to prevent damage to the deck, with a weight bearing recoil compensating gun stabilizer platform holding up the Koalitsiya module underneath. They could also probably containerize the ammo storage feed/loading mechanism, but the Koalitsiya module is already capable of storing '70' 152.4 mm shells, so there's less of need for that unless deployed  for missions of heavy artillery use. No need for deck penetration or a lengthy design planning process and boat modernization development process. The design, testing, and fielding in to service could be done within a 1.5 year time frame.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:49 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    marat wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    most likely AK 192 single 130mm gun same as in Gorshkov. But we will see.

    Why put the gun of a frigate on a cruiser?


    Because that is biggest and the most modern gun they have. They do not have new 152 or 203 naval guns designs, or at least not in mature stage.

    Don't they? How do you know?  AFAIK we didn't see the A-192M publicly until one was bolted onto the Adm Gorshkov.  I won't be surprised at all to see them fit out with a navalised version of the 2S35.

    Why would they do that.....Naval guns these days don't need to be bigger than 150m. that gun isn't even really meant to engage large surface combatants

    The days of big barrel guns on ships is long and past.
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    Post  Isos Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:00 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Why would they do that.....Naval guns these days don't need to be bigger than 150m. that gun isn't even really meant to engage large surface combatants

    The days of big barrel guns on ships is long and past.

    Firing at ground targets is still relevent. For exemple during landings or to destroy a port.

    Also the bigger the gun is the bigger a propelled round (with a ramjet engine) would be and the longer ranges it will go would be.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:44 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:

    Why would they do that.....Naval guns these days don't need to be bigger than 150m. that gun isn't even really meant to engage large surface combatants

    The days of big barrel guns on ships is long and past.

    Firing at ground targets is still relevent. For exemple during landings or to destroy a port.

    Also the bigger the gun is the bigger a propelled round (with a ramjet engine) would be and the longer ranges it will go would be.

    Not for ship-mounted guns, missiles can do that far better with much greater accuracy this isn't WW2.

    Any range you could get with a "bigger" gun is worthless since missiles will always be longer range.

    Are you realllllllly trying to go down this route?.
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    Post  Isos Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:26 am

    Not for ship-mounted guns, missiles can do that far better with much greater accuracy this isn't WW2.

    Any range you could get with a "bigger" gun is worthless since missiles will always be longer range.

    Are you realllllllly trying to go down this route?.

    Missiles are expensive and their number is much more limited because the number of UKSK is still limited.

    Their warheads are also not so powerfull. 2 rounds of 152mm should do the same dammages.

    I'm not talking about firing on Washington but on targets like in Georgia, Ukraine, baltic states or Kurils if Japan invades where the ships can come much closer to the shores because of lack of defences. It would be artillery support and tactical strikes on shore targets. Each gun will have some 100-200 rounds, far greater than 16 kalibr, and they also go faster enabling real time fire support against mobile troops.

    Sovromenys 4x130mm gun were specifically made for that btw.

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    Post  GarryB Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:44 am

    Because that is biggest and the most modern gun they have. They do not have new 152 or 203 naval guns designs, or at least not in mature stage.

    They have stated that the 152mm gun of the land based Coalition is intended for naval use... the gun and ammo was a joint venture paid for by the Army and the Navy to create a gun that both can use... it would make sense to mount it on an upgraded cruiser... what else are they going to mount it on?

    Why would they do that.....Naval guns these days don't need to be bigger than 150m. that gun isn't even really meant to engage large surface combatants

    The days of big barrel guns on ships is long and past.

    They have just laid down two landing ships... hint hint hint...

    152mm guns are not excessively big, and their size offers rather a lot of potential in terms of guided rounds and long range munitions that are not an option for smaller calibres...

    What I mean to say is that you can have guided 57mm shells, but the payload they deliver on target is nothing like the 40kg weight a 152mm gun or indeed 120kg payload a 203mm gun could deliver...

    Not for ship-mounted guns, missiles can do that far better with much greater accuracy this isn't WW2.

    For a missile to deliver a 50kg warhead you are looking at a Kh-25 which have ranges of less than 40km in most versions and weigh about 300kgs each.... in comparison a 152mm shell can currently reach 70km with decent accuracy and they are talking about 170km range rounds...

    BTW the US planned to have a super gun mount on their Zumwalts till it turned out that each shell cost 800K which made them more expensive than missiles...

    The Russian round is unified with what the Russian Army are doing which spreads the cost...

    I'm not talking about firing on Washington but on targets like in Georgia, Ukraine, baltic states or Kurils if Japan invades where the ships can come much closer to the shores because of lack of defences. It would be artillery support and tactical strikes on shore targets. Each gun will have some 100-200 rounds, far greater than 16 kalibr, and they also go faster enabling real time fire support against mobile troops.

    Sovromenys 4x130mm gun were specifically made for that btw.

    The hint is probably the two helicopter landing ships they have just laid down too...

    203mm guns is purely my speculation and wishful thinking but they have publicly stated they plan to use the 152mm Coalition gun in the Navy.... which at the very least means replacing the 130mm Bereg coastal gun used together with the Bal (Kh-35) missile system, but also likely the weapon used on their planned cruisers... which would mean fitting them to their upgraded Kirov class cruisers would make a lot of sense in place of the existing 130mm twin gun mount.

    The naval gun would be different from Coalition but use the same barrels but different ammo hoists and handling systems. 10-20 rounds per minute is fast for land based artillery but you would want 4-5 times faster rates for a naval gun...

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    Post  marat Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:06 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    Don't they? How do you know?  AFAIK we didn't see the A-192M publicly until one was bolted onto the Adm Gorshkov.  I won't be surprised at all to see them fit out with a navalised version of the 2S35.

    You cannot prove that something do not exists. But you could prove that it exist. So please do so, give any evidence that they have 152mm or 203mm new generation naval gun in advance test phase.


    Did you ever see that new gun in tests? Do you have any link that live tests of prototipe is performed?

    So, as for now I do not have any fact to assume they have such gun, I will rather assume that they do not have it then vice versa.

    Remember for how long we have info about new 57mm gun for IFV and Navy? It is produced long time ago, and we see it years ago but yet we do not have any in serial production or operational usage.

    A192M is not actually new as, afaik, under the surface that is same old AK130, they made new turret for stealth ships. But maybe that will be the case now that they just give reshaped turret for old ak130 but from my point of view having in mind that Kirov is not stealth that is nonsense.

    Regarding Koalitsia, that project was abandoned or I am not wrong?
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:28 am

    Isos wrote:
    Not for ship-mounted guns, missiles can do that far better with much greater accuracy this isn't WW2.

    Any range you could get with a "bigger" gun is worthless since missiles will always be longer range.

    Are you realllllllly trying to go down this route?.

    Missiles are expensive and their number is much more limited because the number of UKSK is still limited.

    Their warheads are also not so powerfull. 2 rounds of 152mm should do the same dammages.

    I'm not talking about firing on Washington but on targets like in Georgia, Ukraine, baltic states or Kurils if Japan invades where the ships can come much closer to the shores because of lack of defences. It would be artillery support and tactical strikes on shore targets. Each gun will have some 100-200 rounds, far greater than 16 kalibr, and they also go faster enabling real time fire support against mobile troops.  

    Sovromenys 4x130mm gun were specifically made for that btw.

    and naval guns will never get the desired result these days, so you're just wasting many trying to naval bombardment.

    The guns would require enemy forces to be fairly close to the coastline after that they are useless.

    Please don't bring up old rust buckets made over 30 years ago that the Russians themselves don't even care for, the guns on those were found to be inadequate for the intended purpose.

    Sure there are situations where a gun is needed but they are very minor and mostly self-defense reasons.



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    Post  Isos Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:32 am

    French used their destroyer's guns to hit coastal targets in Libya. A modern gun will have rocket/ramjet powered guided rounds with 150-200km range.

    There are plenty of juicy targets on the shores : internet connexion centers, fuel depot, enemy ships, weapon storage, radars, civilian infrastructures in the ports...

    Sovs are old now but their guns were ver good back in the time. They would have bombed the shit out of Sweeds of Japanese durung landings.

    Moreover, like isreali/egyptian war showed, naval guns are still usefull for naval wars. If the missiles miss you are left only with that.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:39 am

    Isos wrote:French used their destroyer's guns to hit coastal targets in Libya. A modern gun will have rocket/ramjet powered guided rounds with 150-200km range.

    There are plenty of juicy targets on the shores : internet connexion centers, fuel depot, enemy ships, weapon storage, radars, civilian infrastructures in the ports...

    Sovs are old now but their guns were ver good back in the time. They would have bombed the shit out of Sweeds of Japanese durung landings.

    Moreover, like isreali/egyptian war showed, naval guns are still usefull for naval wars. If the missiles miss you are left only with that.

    and they did no strategic damage what so ever.

    Not really, you will not find that many targets close to a shoreline just the most basic requirements. You need to fight in a war to get a better understanding, You're just giving me online talking abouts.

    if the ships weren't sunk they could have done that but it would have made no difference overall.

    if you screw up very bad sure but that's a purely last last last resort.

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    Post  Big_Gazza Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:04 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    The guns would require enemy forces to be fairly close to the coastline after that they are useless.


    Given that shore bombardment in support of amphibious forces is generally all about softening up the defenders and weakening their ability to resist, i'd say that's not exactly problem! Laughing Laughing Laughing

    You are aware that major infrastructure like ports and bridges and naval depots are near the coastline? Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Other uses are for interdiction of shipping in blockade or anti-piracy operations. You can send a clear signal with arty without wasting a multi-million dollar missile. Nothing will stop a merchant ship faster than a 100mm HE exploding in the water a few hundreds meters from their bow, or a shell sailing 10m over the bridge deck. Laughing Laughing Laughing

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    Post  GarryB Fri Aug 21, 2020 12:33 pm

    You cannot prove that something do not exists. But you could prove that it exist. So please do so, give any evidence that they have 152mm or 203mm new generation naval gun in advance test phase.

    They said that they will be using 152mm calibre weapons in the Russian Navy...

    All the necessary photos of it are included in the thread showing the test videos and photos of the Zircon hypersonic missile they also have in testing...

    Some of them are blurred because they are secret of course. Twisted Evil

    Did you ever see that new gun in tests? Do you have any link that live tests of prototipe is performed?

    Why do you think they would tell us?

    BTW the drawing above was not done by me...

    So, as for now I do not have any fact to assume they have such gun, I will rather assume that they do not have it then vice versa.

    They reintroduced the Sverdlov class cruisers because they had 152mm guns and they wanted them to support their Ivan Rogov landing ships... what have they just laid down... do you think there are any Sverdlov cruisers left to drag out of mothballs?

    They stated that they were going to introduce a navalised 152mm Coalition gun for the Navy... I would think it would make sense to replace the Bereg coastal gun, so they can justify making quite a few of them and in terms of design they could just be the land based Coalition version on the wheeled truck mount for minimal costs to buy and operate, but for at sea use it would make sense to fit them to heavy destroyers and cruisers too... the same way the 130mm guns were fitted to Sovremmeny class destroyers and Kirov class cruisers after the first one which had two 100mm gun mounts the later ones had a single twin 130mm gun mount as fitted to the Sovs... which had two.

    Remember for how long we have info about new 57mm gun for IFV and Navy? It is produced long time ago, and we see it years ago but yet we do not have any in serial production or operational usage.

    The Army model is more urgent because enemy IFVs can't be penetrated at combat ranges with 30mm cannon any more so the 57mm round is necessary, but they are also making an air defence gun version for shooting down drones and munitions and aircraft, which is also going to enter service too.

    One company actually has a unified turret for land vehicles and naval use...

    http://roe.ru/eng/catalog/naval-systems/shipborne-weapons/au-220-m/

    A192M is not actually new as, afaik, under the surface that is same old AK130, they made new turret for stealth ships. But maybe that will be the case now that they just give reshaped turret for old ak130 but from my point of view having in mind that Kirov is not stealth that is nonsense.

    The old AK130 was 98 tons without ammo.... the new A192M is 30 tons without ammo.... yeah... they just reshaped the turret to make it look stealthy and that is why development of new Russian ships takes so long... take 68 tons off the turret shell of a gun mount is very tricky... Rolling Eyes

    Regarding Koalitsia, that project was abandoned or I am not wrong?

    Then what are they driving through Moscow in parades with Armata chassis and 152mm guns.... let alone the truck mounted versions...

    and naval guns will never get the desired result these days, so you're just wasting many trying to naval bombardment.

    With the improvements in communications and technology down to the individual soldier I would think having guided artillery shells soldiers taking a beach can direct with metre level precision might make a bit of a difference during a landing... especially ship gun fire which is not cancelled at night or in bad weather, or because enemy air defences are too strong...

    The guns would require enemy forces to be fairly close to the coastline after that they are useless.

    Even just standard existing shells with 70km range they could sit 50km offshore and hit targets 20km inland... later improvements to 170km improve performance even further... but the soldiers will be taking weapons and vehicles with them... it wont be their only support...

    Please don't bring up old rust buckets made over 30 years ago that the Russians themselves don't even care for, the guns on those were found to be inadequate for the intended purpose.

    The 130mm guns of the Sovs would struggle to be useful... with an effective range of only about 26km they seriously lack range, but the whole point of cooperating with the Army to develop much longer ranged guided shells happened for a reason...

    Sure there are situations where a gun is needed but they are very minor and mostly self-defense reasons.

    Greatly increase the range and make them accurate and they suddenly become very very useful.

    The Zumwalt shows a gun that is cheap, long ranged, and accurate is a disireable thing... they just stuffed up the implementation that is all.

    and they did no strategic damage what so ever.

    Why would you expect strategic damage?

    Not really, you will not find that many targets close to a shoreline just the most basic requirements. You need to fight in a war to get a better understanding, You're just giving me online talking abouts.

    What tends to happen when you start landing your own troops on a beach in enemy territory is that the enemy often then sends its own troops to oppose that landing... the enemy targets come to you... even if you don't destroy the entire enemy force with shells it is not important... quite often even if the shells make the enemy keep their heads down while the beachhead is established and expanded then often that is all you need... the landed troops can then do the rest.

    Other uses are for interdiction of shipping in blockade or anti-piracy operations. You can send a clear signal with arty without wasting a multi-million dollar missile. Nothing will stop a merchant ship faster than a 100mm HE exploding in the water a few hundreds meters from their bow, or a shell sailing 10m over the bridge deck.

    More importantly you can get creative... a smoke shell landing on the main deck of a ship can form a serious distraction... and as you say... you can fire warning shots that don't cost millions of dollars each.

    Thanks to a JV with Bulgaria they also have jammer rounds in 152mm calibre that are used to jam communications within a few hundred metres of where the shell lands... punch a few into the side of a ship and they wont be crying for help... a non phosphorus smoke round entering the bridge will clear it pretty fast too...
    SeigSoloyvov
    SeigSoloyvov


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    Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov] - Page 27 Empty Re: Upgraded Kirov class: Project 11442 [Admiral Nakhimov]

    Post  SeigSoloyvov Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:48 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    The guns would require enemy forces to be fairly close to the coastline after that they are useless.


    Given that shore bombardment in support of amphibious forces is generally all about softening up the defenders and weakening their ability to resist, i'd say that's not exactly problem!  Laughing Laughing Laughing

    You are aware that major infrastructure like ports and bridges and naval depots are near the coastline?  Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Other uses are for interdiction of shipping in blockade or anti-piracy operations. You can send a clear signal with arty without wasting a multi-million dollar missile.  Nothing will stop a merchant ship faster than a 100mm HE exploding in the water a few hundreds meters from their bow, or a shell sailing 10m over the bridge deck.   Laughing Laughing Laughing

    1. You will not be destroying the port, you will capture the ports to use them. Only a moron would cause heavy damage to the ports. The only time destroying a naval point is acceptable is if you are retreating from it or if the enemy is dug in and refuses to leave but if you try and use those guns for that, then you don't know what your doing at all. So bringing up "let's bombard the ports" shows a clear lack of understanding of procedure on your end. Keep reading them internet articles.

    2. Bridges? that greatly depends on what country you are talking about and most small bridges can easily be bypassed lol. I find it funny when people try and bring up oddly specific points that really may or may not have any meaning depending on geographic location to argue. Unless it is a massive bridge it won't matter, this isn't WW2 lol.

    3. Congrats, you will notice I said they aren't totally useless and do have some uses.

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